 Hi, my name is Boniface, this is Jeremiah, and this is Olivier, and this is the works we're with my brother's keeper. We're just going to let you go ahead and introduce yourself. Hi, when I started this, everybody, I'm Susana Davis, and I'm the Racial Equity Director for the State of Vermont. Sweet. So I guess to kind of start, what is that, what is that mean, Yuri, what is your job? Yeah, so, you know, this is a new, well, it's not new, they created this position about four years ago now, but I was the first person appointed to the position. So no one really knows what it means because we're all just gonna make what we want out of it. And I think there's a lot of real opportunity and possibility with that, because it is the first time we have this role. So some of the things that I'm required to do are outlined in the statute that created it, and that statute is Act 9 of 2018. And so some of the duties for this position are to serve as a liaison between the Governor's Cabinet and the Workforce Diversity Council and the Human Rights Commission, also creating and delivering trainings for the state and creating performance targets and goals. So being able to say, for example, we want to hire 5% more people of color by the year, blah, blah, blah. Some other duties include working with different committees and working groups, and they keep adding new stuff every year, which is actually really exciting because what it means is that equity has to be a foundational part of state government. So this work should be showing up in everybody's work. And so that's what we're seeing is more equity work in criminal justice and health and education and all those things. So that's a little bit of what the job means. I guess just as a summary, I serve as an advisor to the Governor on matters related to racial equity and also interact with the public as well and other people in state government to make sure they have all the info that they need and all the services that they need. Sweet. So since you just like kind of started working like pretty much just like right now, why is that why is it taking this long to get started in your position and like how is any different before you started working? You know, part of the reason that it takes a long time, well, I told you they passed this law in the summer of 2018, but they didn't hire me until the summer of 2019. So it took a whole year just to hire somebody. And it feels like the work has been very slow. I think that's just me being impatient. We didn't get here overnight and we're not going to fix this overnight. But another thing that happened is six months after I started working in this job, COVID hit, and it just felt like everything was emergency response, pandemic response, and a lot of the policy things we wanted to do on racial equity have to get put on hold because instead we were doing emergency response. I'll give you a couple of examples. We were about to start an MWBE program. That's a program for minority and women-owned business enterprises. That was something that we put on hold because we were just trying to get small businesses to survive the pandemic before we could start thinking about flourishing and building out. Another example is one of the things that I wanted to do was a local level program to get town more invested in equity work. And we also have to put that on hold, but I'm really, really proud to say that it got green-lighted recently by the governor. And so we put that in our budget. And with any luck, I'm hoping that in a few months we can roll it out and get started with that work. And you know what? I'm sorry. I have to add on to this answer because I just remembered I didn't really answer the question. Some of the things, those are some of the reasons for delays, but honestly, a lot of it is just getting to know people and getting people to understand why equity matters in Vermont. Some people think that there aren't that many people of color, so does it really matter? It does matter. And so part of the work is just really educating people. Do you think that since you guys started before, you said before the pandemic, right? Was it before the pandemic or through the pandemic? Have you guys improved a lot or just the same thing as the beginning? I do think we've improved, but I think we have a long way to go. I mean, for example, one of the big things is language access. And we've been talking about that since I started, since before I started. The pandemic definitely forced us to come up with solutions fast because lives depended on it. So I do think that we learned a lot in a really short time and we do things now better. And people don't need to explain to them as much anymore. They get it. So yeah, I think we've improved. Another big thing is we started doing these equity impact assessments, which is basically a long questionnaire. Anytime you have a new idea or budget or policy, you have to do this questionnaire. And the questionnaire asks you things to make sure you're really considering historically marginalized communities. So I'll give you an example. One of the questions on the questionnaire is, oh, you're making a new program. That's great. Are you going to have public-facing documents? If you are, are you translating them? If you are, into what languages? And if you're not, then why not? And those are the kinds of questions that a lot of people in state government have not been used to having to ask. But now that we require this form, it's the kind of thing that becomes second nature because we're doing it every single time. So I think that's one of the ways that we've also improved since then. My question is just going to ask that does the program only exist in Vermont or other states? Can you say that one more time just a little bit louder? Yeah, I was just asking that does that the job that you do, is it only exist in Vermont or other states that have somebody does a job? Yeah, you know, a lot of places, a lot of states and cities and counties actually have jobs like mine. But you know what, they don't all look the same in everywhere. So for example, this is a state where I don't have to fight with my boss to take the work seriously. And I'm grateful for that because people who have my job in other states, they have to fight every day just for legitimacy in their work. It really honestly depends. The political atmosphere and who lives in the jurisdiction can have a big impact on how seriously the work gets taken. So there are lots of jobs like mine around the country at the local level and the state level. But not all of us have the same resources or credibility or support. All right. My other question is that I get a job. I mean, you're fighting for people, but do you feel like you get enough support from the community? I get a lot of support from the community. And I'm grateful for that because because I'm not guaranteed a job or this job. And that's hard sometimes to work in government and to feel like you're part of a system. And maybe the system's not working the way you like it. And I think it's very easy to get discouraged by that. But I have been very grateful that people in the community really want to see this succeed. And anytime I ask anybody for anything, they're always prepared. They're always ready. They're ready to do the work. And I have always appreciated that. And at the same time, I also need the community to check me. You know, I'm not going to be right about everything. And sometimes it's not just about them supporting me. It's about me making sure that I'm supporting them however they need, not just however the state feels like it. So it's definitely a two-way street. And I have to be, I have to be accountable to the community in the same way that I expect to be supported by them. For your drug, what was the process like to get the job? And when did you start thinking of it? Can you say that again a little bit louder? When did you start thinking about the job? What was the process like? When did I first let the job? I'm so sorry. Thinking about it. Planning of getting the job. All right. One more time. One more time. Like you could ask, when did you apply for the job? And when did you come up with the process like to get the job? Is that where you're at? Yes. What was the process? What was the process? Oh, okay. I'm sorry. I got to put my volume. Okay. Sorry. So what was the process like to get the job? Yeah. So I think it was 2017, 2018, I guess, that I was in New York. And I guess I had decided to start looking at Vermont. And I noticed a headline. Oh, they passed a bill to create a racial equity something-something. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. And I didn't really think a lot about it. And then a few months later, I got an email. And it was just a generic email of all these jobs in Vermont. And this one came up. And I said, oh, man, they're going to get all kinds of great people from around the country. It's not worth me applying. Why bother? But I said, you know what? Why not? I'll just take a chance. And I applied for it. And then they called me for an interview. And I remember thinking to myself, okay, I'm going to fly. I'm going to fly to Vermont interview. And I said, but I know they're not going to give me the job. So I'm not going to pay actual money for this flight because I'm not going to spend money on a job. I'm not going to get. So I actually bought my flight with points. And it was February. So let me see. I applied in December 2018. And they called me in February to show up the following week. So I got on a plane, and I came to Burlington, and it was so cold. And I interviewed three times, one in February, one in April, and then once in May. Right? Yeah, February was with the advisory panel. I think April was with Secretary of Administration. And then the third one was with the governor in his office. And then in June, they made the offer. And in July, I was here. So do you live in New York or in Burlington? You said, do I live in New York or Burlington? Yeah, did the job make you move to Vermont since it's like a Vermont thing? Or did you stay in New York? No. So I knew I was going to come to Vermont anyway. And that's why I started looking at jobs here. So I was just waiting for the right opportunity. And this was it. So as soon as I got the offer, I just packed up and moved. And so I'm in Vermont. Oh, that's sweet. That worked out well for you then? Well, let's see. I mean, you know, you know what's interesting? A lot of people don't know, but my job technically expires in 2024. Oh, no. No questions. Because I've already said them before. So like, there's another person take over, or like, people vote for you to stay? Is that how that works? Yeah. So what they tell me is that it's most likely that they're just going to keep extending it forever because they do that with a lot of positions and committees. But you know, we also, this is also a political world, unfortunately. And so just because the job is here for years doesn't mean I am. I mean, you know, the administration could change. You could have new people in leadership tomorrow. And if that's the case, then nothing is guaranteed. But that's the reason that I think it's so important to do this work, because if you set up strong policy today, then it doesn't matter who comes next, who gets elected, who doesn't get elected. People are still going to be looked out for regardless if you put strong policies in place today. So I'm really just focused on now. One of the other things that we were curious about was the budget for school. Yeah, I guess, like, do you know anything about that? Like, does that have anything to do with you and your workforce for like the budget for school to like from now to 2023? About the wait, do I know anything about what now with the workforce? The budget for school, the Burlington budget, school budget. No, no, unless I'm misunderstanding. I guess what I mean is like, how does your job impact schools? Oh, yeah. It's hard with schools because one thing that Vermont loves is local control, right? Where the state can only tell school districts what to do so much, right? And so a lot of what we want to do at the local level in schools, we actually can't make the schools do it. And so the challenge is working with the district to say, okay, this is why it's important for you to do XYZ or for you to stop doing XYZ. We can help you get there. We can give you a model policy. We can try to give you some funding. But at the end of the day, it really takes local action to get a lot of things done or to put certain protections in place. And that's one of the reasons that I was telling you about that pilot program that we want to roll out at the municipal level because we want, I want to have answers for people, but some of the answers are legally just outside our hands. And some of it has to come from local people. So like sports teams, athletic teams, right? Students getting harassed or bullied or subjected to racist slurs, right? Those are the kinds of things that when we read about them, when I read about them, I get livid and want to intervene and want to do something. And then I'm reminded of the fact that, well, legally, there's not a whole lot you can do. And that's hard, right? Because you have a separation of powers in government for a reason because you don't want any one part of government to have too much power or to abuse it. So it can be a really good thing. But there's also circumstances where it just ties your hands. And that's, it's difficult to accept. Yeah. Like, if you have an issue in your job, how do you address it? Like if it's a big issue? Well, so far, luckily, I haven't had too many big issues. So that's a good thing. But I guess it depends on what kind of issue. Like, for example, if I'm having a problem with the way that my colleagues are treating me, then, you know, there's a process for that. You can go to human resources or you can go, I could go to my boss. If I really needed to, I suppose I could go to the governor. But, you know, if I'm having a problem with, I don't know, not not being listened to on a policy or something that I believe in, maybe it's about the vaccination policy or whatever it is, then I have a lot of options. For example, if I disagree with something we're doing and it's health related, I'm going to talk to my colleagues in the health department and say, hey, this is what I think. And actually, this has happened multiple times. For example, when we were rolling out testing and when we were rolling out vaccination, I had some strong thoughts that weren't reflected in the policy. And I went to the commissioner of health, Dr. Levine, and said, hey, I have some concerns. This is what I know. This is what I've seen. This is the science that I've seen. What can we do to reconcile this for communities of color? And he said, let me think on it. And then he came back and said, we can find a middle ground. So when that works, it works great. I have not yet had the kind of problem that couldn't be resolved. And, you know, one good thing is sometimes if I have an issue, I may not always be the one who needs to speak up about it. I have seen other people notice when I'm being treated not so great, and they will just loudly step up and say something right. I don't have to. And it's also good to know that you have people around you who are willing to do that. And you also have to be willing to turn around and do that for other people to see it. So, yeah. Did you have a lot of struggles when you got the position due to moving and trying to understand the community better? Housing is really hard in Vermont. I'm going to say that. Housing is rough here. So that has definitely been a challenge. But I think another big challenge is that in Vermont, people really see you as an outsider if you haven't been here for 19 generations. And so they treat you differently and they treat you like you're not a real part of the community. And so I think one of the challenges, not everybody, of course, lots and lots of people are very welcoming. And, you know, I have to acknowledge that. But there is a little bit of a challenge with people who don't take you seriously because you're from somewhere else. And, yeah, there's that. I mean, also the other thing is that I'm used to a more urban environment. So when I think about government, I think about more people doing more jobs. But here, it's a lot fewer people. So I'll give you an example. When I first got here and I met with somebody from the legislature, I don't remember who it was, but, you know, a lawmaker and the person said, we should meet. And I said, yeah, great. What's your scheduler's name? Let me reach out to your scheduler. And the person said, I don't have a scheduler. And I said, oh, maybe your special assistant or your body person or your communications person. And they were like, I don't have any of that. I do all my own work. We don't get staffed. And I remember thinking that was so different from New York, like everybody has a team of people. And here in Vermont, it's like everybody wears a lot of different hats, which I like actually. I think that it's good. It means that the people who are in the room have to know what's going on, because that's the reason you're in the room. Yeah. So I think just understanding how government works here was a little bit different because everything is a little smaller. My other question is that since you said that your job is like working with people, like in a community. I was wondering, like if you thought about going to different schools in the community to talk to students about your job or something like that. Yeah. I think working in the community is the most important thing. And sometimes when you move to government positions, sometimes you forget that. Or if you've always been in government positions, maybe you never learned it. And it means you're disconnected. So what you're talking about, and I've had the honor of being able to sit with students from middle school to high school to college and law school. And I don't really see a big difference, to be honest. I think for all of the student groups I've ever interacted with, there's a real feeling of readiness and understanding. And just, I don't know what it is, but it's like they get it. They just get it. And they don't play around with it. They don't try to like, I'm doing a very bad job of explaining this, but I'm always impressed when I'm with students of any age. Especially a couple of weeks ago, I was at a middle school, high school, giving a talk. And I feel like those kids were more mature than me. And they got it. They understood. We talked a lot about systemic racism. And it was just, I just see that as a huge part of the community. And as a matter of fact, in Vermont, the most racially diverse people in Vermont are the younger people. Statistically speaking, that's not even just casual observation. It's just data. And so when we think about racial equity, I always tell people we have to do racial equity and generational equity because those two things go together. If you're looking for people of color in Vermont, they're going to be younger. And if you're serving young people in Vermont, they're more likely to be of color. So that's the next generation of graduates and home buyers and new professionals in the workplace. And if we care about housing and employment and young children, then you have to think about the people who are going to be starting that world. I don't know if I answered the question. Do you think that racial equity problems have been leaked? Most of them have been solved? I'll just think it's still the same as last year. If you want to understand the question. I feel like a lot of it is the same and a lot of it is very new. Some of the conversations that I had with people, I feel like I've been telling you the same thing for two years. But I also just feel I also see a lot of forward movement, people doing things differently now than they used to be. And again, part of it is because when you have a legislature that comes from the community, you have more people, again, more community activists who can participate. And I think that that helps to change the shape of things. So I don't know. Sometimes it feels like we're not moving fast. And other times I look and I feel very proud of how far we've come. And it's hard to put a finger on it, but it's just like with everything. When it's good, it's really good. And when it's not, it's really not. Like what Bonnie asked about like, if you guys make any change, if you guys actually solve what would that look like? You said what would real change look like? Yeah, real change would look like us not needing my job anymore. When we don't need a racial equity director anymore, then I'm going to be so happy because it means we did what we needed to do. Now, if I'm being a little bit more realistic, then I would say real change means that when people come to me, it's not because of a crisis we have to respond to. It's because we're being proactive on front ends on equity. It also means that when we say, oh, hey, we want to do this program related to racial equity, I don't get a response that says, well, we'll have to figure out where we're going to pull that money from or what we're going to take away from. Because when you phrase it like that, it's coming from a scarcity mindset, right? It implies that equity work is taking away from other work, real work, as opposed to saying, when you do something from an equity perspective, it's benefiting everybody. And that is the underlying perspective that all the work should have. So instead of talking about it as if it's taking away from something else, recognize it as an addition, not a subtraction. That's how I see real change is when we start recognizing we're not just spending, we're investing, and there's a real key difference there. Okay. Oh, yeah. In order we're about to wrap up, and do you have any questions for us before we finish? One more time. Okay. Sorry. Before we finish our meeting, do you have any questions for us? Do I have it? I'm so sorry. One more time. Okay. I'm just going to speak as loud as I can. Yeah, you got to yell it. Okay. So before we finish our meeting, do you have any questions that you want to ask us? Yeah, I do actually. How are you doing? Yeah. All right. Yeah. I'm not cold outside. It is very cold. Cold. I hate it. Well, maybe you all could tell me a little bit about what drew you to the program and what have you gotten out of it so far, and what do you hope to get out of it? Jeremiah? The program? Sure. When I first joined this program was because I was hearing things about cameras and videos and stuff, and that interested me. But since joining, it's been a little bit different than that. I mean, we have gotten a lot of chances. All of us talked to a lot of different people that have like different knowledges and experience. And so we've been learning from them pretty much. And I think that's really cool. And also we get to use cameras around after all, so that's also cool. Oh, yeah. What Jeremiah said, what drew me into this was the cameras. And I was pretty shy in front of the camera, but I wanted to try in your experience. And I kind of went for it. It was pretty challenging at first, but I kind of got the hang of it. And now he's in front of the camera. Congratulations. Yeah, while doing this program, just like what Jeremy and Boniface have said, just using camera and editing video, but even actually much better, like we get to interview people. I think that will do that. That was a nice experience. Yeah, I think the program is pretty cool. Interviewing different people and learning how to use the cameras is pretty cool. Yeah. It's kind of like we get to experience a city experience through the computer. I think we have different people every day. Yeah. Listen, we have to appreciate being able to interview each other like this, because in another few years, the robots are going to be interviewing us and we won't be talking to people anymore. The robots are coming. What is Elon Musk doing? Well, thank you very much for your time. Yeah, we appreciate this conversation. It was awesome. And also nice to meet you. Thank you. This has been so great. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Have a good one.