 Hi everybody, we're back. This is Dave Vellante of wikibond.org. I'm here with my co-host Jeff Kelly and this is theCUBE, SiliconANGLE's continuous back here, day-long production of MongoDB days. We're here in New York City. It's where all the action is. Developers around the MongoDB community. TenGen, of course, is the big sponsor of this event. Building out the ecosystem around MongoDB, company with great deal of success. We had Max Shearsen on earlier talking about that but Jerry Cuomo is here. He's an IBM Fellow and the CTO of WebSphere. Jerry, welcome to theCUBE. First time on theCUBE, I believe. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so you guys have been in the news with Mongo. Yes, we have. We were talking off camera. We love IBM's open source mojo. You guys have made a real commitment to the open source community and you've made a lot of money in open source. Sure, yeah. A lot of people say, well, IBM has proven that for decades now. Big commitments from the most senior-level people, including guys like Steve Mills who I told you we've had on and Ambuja Goyal, really talking the open source game but also walking the walk. So this week you guys, I guess last week, made an announcement with TenGen around Mongo, around JSON. Talk about that a little bit and talk about why you, why the WebSphere guy. Yeah, so Dave, a while ago at the advent of the web and e-business, we made some decisions. Steve was right in the middle of it, Steve Mills, to take an approach around building out our platform around open systems. So WebSphere around Java, Patchy, and some of those communities. And almost like in a Pavlovian way, right? The web bell rang. We responded and got a cookie, right? And it was a good thing, right? And now the bell is ringing again, but it's resonating much deeper. And that's the mobile bell with, in its wake, there is big data and social and analytics and cloud, right? So what are we going to do? We're going to respond to the way we responded before around open systems and hope we get another cookie, right? And specifically, Dave, what I mean there is when you look at building an end-to-end mobile application, I'm not talking about Angry Birds. I'm not talking about something that just runs on the client. I'm talking about an application that talks out to a back-end system. I think in terms from a developer perspective of concept count, you're building an application. How many of those cute O'Reilly books with the animal covers, how many as a developer do you have to have in your brain to accomplish something, a task? And building an end-to-end mobile application is pretty daunting these days. Counts up count is high. I'm not going to put a number on it, but it's not trivial. And something dawned on us. I like to echo as the JavaScript everywhere movement that probably for the first time in my 25 years in IT, you have JavaScript prominently on the devices. You can say a lot about device architectures with Apple and Google and Microsoft and not a lot in common, but the one thing that they have in common is open web. They all support HTML5, JavaScript, JSON, et cetera. On the server, you have server-side JavaScript as a viable option. And then in the database. Here's databases, not to least to mention Mongo. So for the first time end-to-end, we have the ability to lower the concept count for an enterprise developer who are building mobile applications with JavaScript on the client, server, and database. With JSON as the dial tone across those different tiers. So I like to think about it as the three amigos, right? The JavaScript client, JavaScript server, and JavaScript database. So as we evolve the WebSphere platform, we'd like to utilize that same formula and have a set of capabilities across client, server, and database that's simplified development for people building real enterprise mobile applications. And this ultimately leads the path to- I love this. Collaborating with NJ. I love this conversation with Jerry. First of all, it's great sound bites. We got mobile bells ringing. You guys got to cookie the concept count. JSON is the dial tone. So we've got a lot of directions here. How much time do we have? But let me start with the whole JavaScript thing. We were out in Velocity this week. Heavy Developers Conference and heard similar themes. One of the things we heard is sort of what I call it, JavaScript creep and risk. As particularly as complexity increases with mobile, things get more distributed. And the evaluation of risk, the old formula of the probability of an event and the severity of an event. And with risk being distributed that way. So first of all, do you buy that? That the JavaScript is, it is everywhere. Of course you basically said that, but it's sort of underutilized, if you will. We're loading JavaScript into every page and that creates challenges. I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit and maybe talk about what you guys are doing to tighten that up. Yeah, so there was a commercial and I won't talk about the vendor, but it was like in my mind, JavaScript isn't the thing, it's the thing that makes the thing better, right? And JavaScript, one of our technical leaders talks about JavaScript as being a kinder, gentler, whatever. So in a browser, it makes the browser from a programmer's perspective a kinder, gentler experience. Node.js makes a POSIX environment, a POSIX environment more palatable to program. And Mongo makes JavaScript on the data side more palatable to program. Yes, JavaScript is everywhere and I think one of the things that we want to do, similar, again, repeating that pattern that we did with WebSphere is across these tiers, we'd like to embrace a set of technologies and frameworks. Not all of them, but a set of key technologies that have vibrant communities around them and start prescribing for those customers who ask us our opinion, prescribing what are the JavaScript frameworks for client, server, and database and provide first class tools and run times. We have an example, our WorkLite product, which is one of part of our mobile first set of capabilities. WorkLite really embraces this JavaScript on the client and using technologies like PhoneGap or now called Cordova so that it can actually integrate with some of the native capabilities of the phone. So that prescription of things like JQuery, Dojo, and Cordova make a very compelling client framework for building mobile apps and WorkLite integrates that also with server side JavaScript. So it's not every package, but there's a set of packages. But what about the database? And that's kind of what led us down the path to pick up the phone and start chatting with the 10 Gen folks. We have the client and the server pretty well taking care of it, but do we go off and invent a set of new NoSQL, Java, JSON standards? It's been done. It's been done. Or do we? But you chose not to take that path. Do we find a vibrant community and collaborate within the context of that community? Right. And then bring it into a very large install base within IBM. So think about this, Jeff and Dave. Think about all of the data that is encompassed within systems like DB2, both in distributed worlds and on the mainframe, you know, exabytes of data. How, is there an opportunity to liberate that data to a set of modern applications? How do we unleash that data so that a modern, in an enterprise, you know, developer building an app could easily get to that data in a format that is consistent with the platform, right? So how do we transform the data in these enterprise systems to a simple JSON format and make it available to the new generation of applications? This is one of the twinkles in our ride, IBM, for how we bring these worlds together. Yes, we could have come up with our own specifications, but you know, the community that the Tengen team has helped cultivate is one that we want to join and continue in that cultivation process with them. So digging into the partnership a little bit more. So really it's about making all that data, it's liberating it and making it available to developers and kind of in a way that's very familiar to them. So it's transparent in a Mongo environment, so building applications. So talk a little bit about, so what is that going to enable them to do? What type of data is trapped away in these sources and what kind of new applications are now going to be possible because of this partnership? So we talk about the style of applications as systems of interaction. Yes, we made up a term, but it's really the wrapper around, you know, Jeffrey Moore's systems of engagement and systems of record. So it's the convergence of the system of record and the system of engagement. So what kind of applications? Well, applications that start to blend data from both, right? You know, take an application, you swipe your credit card at your favorite coffee shop. You opt in to a special promotion with that. The credit card company, basically because you enable them to do this, looks at your past purchase history and decides you have affinity for buying jeans. It also realizes that two doors down is a clothing store. Before you finish your cup of coffee, it offers you a 30% coupon to go and, you know, kind of text that to you. You finish your cup of coffee, you say, what the hell, what's another pair of jeans? Think about that system of interaction that blends new modern mobile techniques, you know, things like geofencing. Notifications and things like that with your system of record, right? Your past purchase history, credit card transaction. So how do you build, that's a pretty cool kind of application scenario. It's absolutely mobile first, but it goes well beyond mobile. It interacts with your enterprises' existing data. So how do we make that a pleasurable experience to build such an application that's a system of interaction? That's the use case. Those are the types of use cases that we believe working on these standards could help do. Create a common programming model across a system of record and a system of engagement. So in that scenario you played out, there's also, there's some analytics being happening there. So what role does analytics play in building those kind of applications? Just to kind of use that example, they've determined you've got an affinity for buying certain types of jeans. Well, they've got to figure that out from the data. That's some kind of analysis you're writing there. That's almost like finding a business needle in a haystack. How do you, in real time, because, you know. Well, right, exactly. And they finish that cup of coffee. While you're there, yeah. And it may just be like a shot of espresso. So it may only be like a minute you have, and you have to make that, you have that one opportunity to make that connection for that customer. So, big data and analytics are key. Techniques like partition data sets, sharding, and some of these normalizing schema. All of these things are key to being able to get that real time interaction going. And if you're converting between, you know, Java objects to XML, to JSON, to, you know, JavaScript, you're going to miss that opportunity. That person's going to be on to their next stop. So, you know, again, coming up with that big data model that's consistent is a key part of the programming model of a system of interaction. Right, that's a good, you know, we talk about real time a lot, Dave. And what does real time mean? We've often said it's in time to make an offer, do something before you lose the customer and make an offer that they can actually act on. I think that's a really good example. Absolutely. So talk a little bit more about this mobile first phenomenon. What kind of challenges, again, we were out at Velocity this week and we heard a lot about how, you know, I call it two steps forward, one step back, you know, the web's getting faster and then we introduce mobile. We talk like crazy about mobile and a couple years from now, we're not going to be talking about mobile. The world's going to just be mobile. So that puts real pressure on application developers. Talk about that a little bit. So Dave, I'm inspired most when mobile reinvents everyday life. You know, think about how the web reinvented everyday life. Imagine how mobile can reinvent everyday life. And, you know, Darwin is neither cruel nor kind. Darwin just is. And we'll naturally select those who underachieve off the planet or who too eagerly overachieve. Let me explain what I mean and how that plays into mobile first. It's not about taking your existing web app and putting it on a smaller screen. That's underachieving. Darwin will get you in his crosshairs and naturally select you out. Customers will not vote positively on that. But think about the experience, the credit card swiping experience that I described. When you're looking at mobile, not only mobile, but as I said, mobile first as a key motivation to reinvent your business. Think about how you check into an airline, with your mobile app. Think about how that, you know, no more lines, no more paper, no more people, right? In the loop. Think about how that airline changed their business process of checking. Think about filing a claim in an insurance app, right? You know, your airbag deploys, help is on its way as you're snapping photos at the scene. That's not just a mobile app. That's an whole value network. That's that business reinventing themselves in the light of mobile. That's what inspires me. And I think that's what I think the opportunity of mobile is. It's more than meets the eye. It's more than that device. In our definition of mobile first, mobile, you know, that endpoint could be a phone. And, you know, in the majority of cases. But it can be your car. It can be a pacemaker. It can be a hospital bed. You know, anything that brings your business closer to the end user, right? So building that application involves a whole value network. It typically crescendos with the mobile system detecting data about the end user, enriching that data with the system of record, perceiving something through analytics, and then driving in action. Detect, enrich, perceive, and act. There's this little formula. And when you see that at work, there's a good chance that mobile is reinventing everyday life. Yeah, now the other thing that's happening, I wonder if you could comment on this, is you mentioned the airlines business process. Yeah. If you think about databases today, they're generally isolated. They're relatively small. When you look at the average database size, it's not enormous. It's certainly not petabytes, right? And so part of that is by design, because you've got to make calls to the database, and it's got this mechanical thing called the spinning disk, and it's slow. And so we've got analytics systems isolated from transaction systems, and you just described a vision where those things start to come together. Things like Flash actually enable that. Yeah, yeah. They remove that bottleneck. But it seems that the, and I wonder if you could comment on this, the interesting part of that is, our business processes have been built around these sort of bespoke databases. And they're sort of hardwired to them. And largely inflexible, right? We've got this technology thing over here, so we have to adapt our business process to make it work. How do you see that changing, specifically from a business process standpoint? It triggered, when you said, the airlines making that change. Yeah, so I don't know that those databases are either going to go away, or people are going to rip and replace them. But I think there is an opportunity to enrich those databases with other databases. Almost like those databases are the highways and the veins. But there's, maybe around that, there's a little globe of data, right? Which is the big data. That's actually data about the interactions. Not just the data about the records, but the data about the interactions that form those. And I think those new classes of databases, as I use the word enrich, I think they will enrich those existing databases, be related to, but work at a different volume. Because you don't want to discriminate in those interaction databases. You want to liberate as much data into those. Because the more data, the more insight you're going to have. So you're saying, leave them as they are. Leave them as they are. Create this metadata layer around them, this data globe, give access to systems so that they can make decisions and then act upon that metadata. And then I want to also ask you about things like, even before you persist the data, you guys have this technology streams, right? That's right. Which is amazing. Right now you're making decisions prior to even storing the stuff and maybe even blending it with other data sources. So we're talking about big data, right? We're talking about big data systems that enrich and compliment systems. And you're not even a data guy. You know, we're all kind of data guys. I'm a data guy, yeah. But think about, we forget to talk about something as an industry. There's big data, but how did the data get there? So there is an era of big messaging, right? I am in the messaging business, you know, with the WebSphere brand, we have things like MQ. We announced a new product called Message Site, which is about the era of big messaging. And I think when you look at, and think about InfoSphere streams, it's being able to deliver large volumes of data. Think about delivering, you know, all the data from your cars. Think about a passenger in a car, maybe having an epileptic seizure, but they're wearing some kind of like brainwave monitor as a cap in the car. And their brainwaves are being sent out to some central service, and, you know, their seizure is detected. Google cap. Or IBM cap, you know? But think about, you know, are you going to make that insight after the data is caught? You have to be making that insight as it's streaming in, right? In order to affect that outcome. And maybe so you can safely park the car on the side of the road before the seizure actually takes place. Yeah, Jeff was out, we both were out at the whole GE Industrial Internet announcement. You guys are doing the whole smarter planet thing. That seems like a new wave, you know, wearable. Big mess. Computers, the IBM cap, the Google glass, Google glass, the little. Big messaging is key to that. Delivery of that big data, and analyzing it in stream. Jerry, awesome. This is a great discussion. Love, again, I love the sound bites. Really appreciate you coming. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. All right, keep it right there, everybody right back. Jeff Kelly and I, this is theCUBE. We're here live at the MongoDB event in New York City. We'll be right back. Good. All right, thanks guys. Thank you. All right, take care. Thank you. Thanks.