 Today we're going to talk about a British politician named Liz Struss and she's the current prime minister of the United Kingdom and she's in the headlines lately because she's made a couple of decisions about their economy and she's had to kind of fish tail her way back the other direction with him and she's getting a little bit heat for that. Greg, why don't you tell us about the videos we're going to watch? Yeah, I think that's about all there is really to say. This is BBC Political Joe, I believe and if I can remember the interviewer's name, Mark, you may. That's Laura Kunsberg. Laura Kunsberg, who has spent a lot of time in front of cameras in the U.S. and there, she was involved in the U.S. here as well and this was around decisions around cutting the top tax bracket and around social spending and those things. How many people voted for your plan? What do you mean by that? Well, you've set out a significant change of direction from the conservative government that you were being part of for many, many years but how many people voted for you to do that? Well, people in 2019 who voted conservative voted for a successful country where we are levelling up all parts of the country and where we're driving growth, enterprise and opportunity. Now any government has to deal with the circumstances it faces and we face this situation of, you know, which was unforeseen, huge energy costs, rising inflation due to the war in Ukraine and the aftermath of Covid. But you know very well, Prime Minister, that a small number of people in the Conservative Party are tens of thousands rather than the whole country voted for you in the leadership contest, perfectly legitimately, but do you fear that you have put the country on a path that it didn't ask for because you believe very strongly that it will lead to growth? Finally, what happens if it doesn't work? Well, what people voted for in 2019 when they voted for conservative, sometimes for the first time in many years, is they voted for a different future. They voted for investment into their towns and cities, they voted for higher wages, they voted for economic growth and that is what our plan will deliver. She's British, so are you Mark, so why don't you go first? Yeah, okay, so what do you mean by that? She says and she leans in after taking some time to kind of compute where that might be coming from and what she's going to do with that question. So already on a little bit of a back foot there, but leans into it. This is a great interview in terms of all what I would call the moderator gestures that are going on here. These are the gestures in my book that decide who's in charge, who's talking, who should talk next, who's going to be shut down and suppressed or who we want an answer from. So lots of that going on here, but from trust at the moment, the her moderators seem to be asymmetrical, which is never a good sign. And some of them are just kind of hanging on in there. It's like a rock climber with just one hand kind of just hanging on to it. Later on we will see some bigger beach balls there and some little melons going on as well, but so look out for that one. Eyebrow rays there on unforeseen elements. So looking for approval on the idea of look, we just didn't know how this was going to turn out. Nobody can tell what macroeconomics are going to go on. So don't punish me too much around this. I want you to pay attention to the breathing rate in this. It's relatively relaxed and slow at the moment. That's going to change in a few videos time. So just hang on there. Verbally what's going on here. We've got a successful and level up and a different future successful level up different future. All of those things completely unmeasurable, which is a good thing as a politician. If you can talk in unmeasurables it nobody can go well hang on. We're not more successful or we didn't really level up or the future isn't very very different than it was before. It's hard to measure so they're good things to put forward to a nation and a public because after 100 days of office nobody can say you didn't really level up did you? Because you can go well we didn't really set the parameters of leveling up. The future isn't very very different now. Well you know we got some of the differences. We never really set the differences. So look nice start here. A very strong adversary here in Laura Kunsberg. She is the first female political editor at the BBC. So she's quite a formidable player. Greg what have you got on this one? Yeah Mark thanks for remembering your name. I looked her up today to find out where she was from because I heard that nice Scottish R in there. I figured she was from somewhere and I read that she went to university in Edinburgh and was originally from Glasgow. So yeah and from a family. But one of the more interesting things that happens in this yes there's clearly no love loss between these two people. You can't miss the body language right out the gate but she asked a poor question right up front. She says who voted for you basically or did your constituents vote for this and she allows her the opportunity to restructure the question. The PM says what do you mean by that? Well there's your chance to go back and say did members of your cabinet or any other of your party do it but she doesn't. She just lets her go. So she gets the chance to restructure the question the way she wants and you're right Mark she leans way in and she throws away those words. What do you mean by that? She's leaning in for clarification and her toes on that aim foot rise when she says it. So I think there's altercation already between these two and she knows that she's going to use this information some way. Remember the power of a question is everything. If you ask a leading question, if you ask a bad question it should be to set up your next one. Then as she gets the runway to say whatever she wants she launches into prepared delivery. Mark it's dead on me. This is the same thing we hear our politicians in the US do all the time. They've got canned stuff that comes out at a different cadence than the stuff when they're forced to answer questions. Her blink rate goes through the roof and I believe by watching her part of the reason is her she blinks in part to punctuate what she's thinking as an illustrator and then you add the other blinking to it you'll see a whole lot there and we say an illustrator it's the way I use my body to punctuate what I think. She also illustrates very clearly with her head nods and her forehead comes up and she edits as she speaks when she's talking about the situation we face. My other favorite thing she does Mark you talk you call them not regulators what do you call them? Yeah moderators same thing. Yeah so regulators in the US it's a way we control conversation she tries to bat down the the interviewer doesn't work and then the interviewer uses regulators aggressively back at her with their hands down as an emphatic as well as an illustrator and there's little very little eye contact from this interviewer until she says what happens if it doesn't work her face contorts a bit in contempt and she eye blocks. Yeah this is a real good start to this is not going the way you wanted it to go when you first show up. Chase what do you got? Yeah so the the hesitancy here starts to indicate some apprehension I think there's some postural movement so like a sitting up and moving back and away there's a foot movement here that you were you were talking about Mark and there's pacifying gestures which is kind of like a self soothing behavior. So that all indicates the stress that she's under the interviewer does a great tactic here that you might have missed she's facing away while interrupting so my whole body's facing away and interrupting so even if it's to look at your notes this prevents the other person from non-verbally communicating that they wish to continue speaking so this seriously increases the likelihood of them just giving up and going along with it so all situations are kind of outside her control or just wiped away you can see these hand gestures wiping away everything that's outside of her control with every single mention and watch in just a moment the different hand movements that she uses to talk about the good things and I want you to see if you can spot them they're very different if you're a subscriber you know what this means I'm going to leave it out here one of the few times I'm going to do it type it in the comments how this behavior alone knowing the good things and the bad things hand gestures gives us a perfect recipe to influence this person's thinking in the future of this interview so the interviewer also is is not turned toward the politician here not turned toward her at all she's almost facing away this could be unconscious behavior but I really doubt it if it's unconscious it suggests that there's a lot of disagreement to begin with which means the interview is maybe doomed from the beginning the person facing inward more this is called the ventral orientation the sciency name if you want to sound fancy how we're facing a person or facing away that the person facing inward more is typically more invested in the outcome of the situation so you can look around a restaurant and airport and use just this one thing who's facing inward toward the other person more they're probably more invested if the interviewer planned this I think it's quite possibly signaling authority on purpose and you can see that it's actually working Scott what do you got all right you guys pretty much covered everything but I think you're right right out of the gate it gets aggressive and I think she's coming on it's almost like she's mad at her said sit down over here I want to talk to you about this that's the vibe you get when it first starts um and after the first question she's we're seeing adapters everywhere but they're really really subtle we're seeing very subtle adapting going on there from lia I'll I'll call her Liz I guess what I call her prime minister you can just call her Liz okay I'll just call her Liz you have permission for Mark oh there you go got one on my team so she seems and she seems composed but illustrators aren't timed correctly they're really really close when she starts putting her hand out and doing these things they're really tight but they're not timed correctly doesn't mean she's being deceptive that just means that she's got a lot of her mind lots going on up there so she as as this aggression is coming in she's going through that as she's answering and she starts giving this Kamala Harris ask answer that sounds like to me like it really doesn't mean much there's a lot of being said but it really not a lot of punch to it you know and so as she goes along and keeps talking she gets interrupted and she lets the interviewer interrupt her so she lets her rescue her from this this out of this letter talk and just keep going because it made no sense she rescues her from this this horrible speech she's given this this conglomeration of thoughts and it just it just sounds like I get a watch my mouth on this but I just it just doesn't sound like it makes makes much sense at all to me um then she's throwing the this that really strong regulator trying to calm her not calm her down but but coming on to keep her try to keep her quiet and she's trying to talk this just seems like a big fuss back and forth um because she feels threatened that's all I'm trying to think of things that you guys didn't cover that's all I got really so all right we good yeah all right that is what our plan will deliver are you absolutely committed to abolishing the 45 pence tax rate for the wealthiest people in the country yes and it is part laura it is part of an overall package of making our tax system simpler and lower but I think it's worth noting in the package we announced the vast majority of that package is the energy package and we talked about that but I want to it's national insurance the 45 p rate actually raises very little and makes our tax system more complicated and we need to move away we need to move away from the idea that everything is about how we redistribute resources we also need to make sure we have got a tax system that's competitive internationally and it's helping us bring in the investment get people into work and you and you get people wanting to get going as your priority you make that very clear can I can ask rig what he got she starts right out of the gate with this are you absolutely she's cadence shifted intentionally to put her on notice and as she goes through it she's asking her hard question are you removing this top tax bracket part of the population is going to like that part of the population is not going to and she knows it so what does she do she just says all right I'm coming right out of the gate and I just she goes right at it and then immediately puts her hands up to start regulating now she does something awkward Scott you talked about her being wooden I think it's weirder than wooden she tries to regulate with her hands at the same time she is illustrating with her hands and she looks like Phantom of the Opera because she's doing this you know moving her hands like this mark she could learn open she could learn from the truth playing how to be more effective with this communication but instead she's doing kind of this Phantom of the Opera thing it looks wooden and awkward and hard to like you can suppress by by doing that you can illustrate by using your hand this way and go hold on one minute and certain parts of their cultural mark I'm sure you'll point out the ones that are cultural and what we shouldn't do or should do the interviewer is congruent and her last message and I'm just going to take this and you can go from there and that is I don't want to hear any more about that because she does regulators starts controlling her conversation talks over and breaks eye contact that's congruent messaging for I'm done listening to whatever you're saying so this is not a friendly interchange this is a pretty aggressive one mark what do you got yeah I totally agree so suppressive gestures right at the start there just as you say to regulate to moderate but she's she's then starts to bat on along to that and illustrate along to that and it's just too much the interviewer starts coming in and trying to suppress her back what I would like her to be doing is is moving things across and along she does try to move on to to energy but she fails to wipe anything she fails to cut into it and push stuff aside and create these bigger images where she could stay clear and then move into those bigger open gestures that are going to win a moral authority and not have this sense of of battle that's going on because we got two suppressors battling each other at the moment no clear winner at this point chase what do you got on this one yeah I agree the explanation here or this answer starts with two big these big stop gestures and a postural retreat which is when we lean back in a way which indicates submission and maybe a desire to prevent some interruption so guys hold on just a second I'll finish in just a second and this is me stopping an interruption or stopping someone from interrupting me and this stop gesture in other contexts means something different but here it's social so her blink rate seems to spike while talking about the benefits of this tax program specifically around making taxes simpler and lower and blink rate is an indicator of stress if our blink rate goes up it indicates a spike in stress lower brunt blink rate is sometimes relaxation but almost always focus so this interviewer has no interest whatsoever in allowing the prime minister to speak on her own and she's being kind of steamrolled a little bit although she's doing the traditional political answer I get a I get a pinpointed answer I'm going to reach in and I'm going to zoom out on google maps or on on this map they're they're looking at this city I'm going to zoom out and scoot over to the exact thing that I want to talk about as soon as possible she's just forgetting to scoot over she's just zooming out that's I think to your point mark she's just not getting getting across very well Scott all right I think she's using those hands to regulate her but I think it's it's an aggressive move on her part trying to regain control at that point I think she's trying she's no so she thinks no matter what happens she's not going to come across this because this is such a big deal me doing this I think that's her attempted to to hold obviously it's a regulator she's trying to to stand her ground but I think she's to her that's really aggressive I think this way it looked like to me um and I think the interviewer I think you're I think the interviewer's emotions got a little bit I think she's a little bit heated there a little bit heated up and so she's starting to not be unprofessional but she's getting right on the edge of that there man coming a little bit strong with with her with her questioning busting in not letting her talk I just I don't know I think she'll use at least let him talk Liz's blink rate still a little bit high her cadence though it's about the same her volume is about the same at this point and her tone is about the same everything's pretty much stayed level she's trying to stay composed she's a leader she's the one in charge and that's what you're supposed to do and I think she's doing a great job of doing that but I think she's trying to gain control at this point and even though she's doing all this stuff she's she's staying at that you know 100 000 feet of trying to explain what's happening which really isn't saying you should just lobbing these ideas and things in excuse me without really saying much without pinpointing things so you're right chase it's odd she pinpoints nothing as she pinpoints so it's it's really it's really odd it's really this thing is I think on both their parts it's a little bit out of control did you discuss scrapping the top rate with your whole cabinet no no we didn't it was a decision that the chancellor made do you think that that is the right way to go about developing what has become a very controversial policy you say it doesn't cost that much money but it's a big decision isn't it if you'd be in Boris Johnson's cabinet and he had done something like that with us look we have committed we have committed and I committed during the leadership campaign to make our system more competitive to lower our taxes and to simplify our taxes and I think that's fundamentally important now when budgets are developed they are developed in a very confidential way in their very market sensitive of course the cabinet is briefed but it is never the case on budgets that they are a something that is created by the whole cabinet the principles though now if you don't know who we are we're the behavior panel and I'm Scott Rouse my body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation body language and I created the number one online body language course body language tactics with Greg Hartley Mark and Mark Bowden I'm an expert in human behavior and body language help people all over the world to stand out win trust gain credibility every time they communicate including some of the leaders of the G7 a little bit like Elizabeth Truss Chase hey I'm Chase Hughes did 20 years the U.S. military wrote the number one best-selling book on influence persuasion and behavior profiling I teach people to do that in my app and all over the world Greg Greg Hartley I'm a former Army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor I've written 10 books on body language and behavior working on another one and put together this number one body language tactics.com course with Scott I spend most of my time around business I chase what he got yeah I just have one big thing here since this is not politically centered this entire conversation here but right during this controversial policy moment the moment controversial policy is mentioned anger instantaneously appears on the forehead the brows coming together and these two little lines forming right here that's what we see when somebody gets angry and I want to illustrate that nobody even if you get become an elected official you have one of the best poker faces on planet earth but that does not give you some vaccination against being a human being so when we talk about body language and stuff that exactly is what we're talking about that nobody's really immune including ourselves when somebody is at a seminar something like oh chase I notice your blink rate increased like yeah I'm a human I've just tried to remind you of that that even the prime minister is not immune to this anger and displays of emotion like this neither is anybody else Greg what do you yeah you know chase I always say that we're like Jane Goodall among the chimps except we're also chimps so we're affected by everything going on around us when we watch other people as an impact on us because of all those mirror neurons and everything in our head we see things that we another chimp would not see in us so a couple of things at that's at 17 seconds in the video by the way the thing you're talking about I call it it looks like an angry mother-in-law yeah that tightening of the eyes and all that you can't miss if you look at it very very carefully you'll see her blink rate slows which she blinks an awful lot the prime minister blinks an awful lot it slows and then she eye blocks at developing her eyes narrow and then they her brow drops at controversy that's pretty powerful considering everything else we've seen then she's back to prepared material now let me give you a pointer anytime you hear the word did will or can have those are leading questions and it's okay if you want to use a leading question to direct conversation we always say in interrogation they're not good because they give us a person option to say yes or no and she knows what it's going to be and she goes and ask did you consult she goes after her and uses that leading question as a control mechanism when you hear that you can have a defense against it I've done a lot of tv news and I've done on both sides of the spectrum and they all all want me to say hey this guy's an idiot I usually talk about body language in every side no matter which extreme you're in they're going to ask you to go after the guy what you do is you take that moment when they ask you did will are well what you have to consider is you have to have filler words and mark you teach your guys that all the time I'm sure but you got to take control of conversation redirect it put it into your arena change fields and work from there pay attention that's for you when somebody asks you a question that's going to box you into a corner take that opportunity to to pivot not chaff and redirect but to pivot to a new topic or a new way to talk about it Scott what do you get all right in my opinion I think this is where Liz should have gotten up and left because she's not being treated like a prime minister with respect that she should be treated with as a prime minister not that I agree with anything she has to say nothing anybody else does but you don't do that the people do these days but she she should have gotten up and left that would have been the thing to do I think at that point and she tries that that combination illustrator and regulator at the same time and it just doesn't work because she's not aggressive enough with it and she lets the interviewer talk over I think she'd been more aggressive in this or just gotten up said you know this isn't this isn't I'm not about this I don't want to I'm not doing this that would have been a whole I think she would looked a lot better at the end than she does at this point that's all I got mark what you got yep so uh look breathing rate is now right up on this this is a an aggressive question and if you look at that little pin that she's wearing of the UK flag there and Ukraine flag you can see that now moving at a whole different rate go back to our first video super relaxed this one now breathing rate is up so she's in trouble however she does deploy countermeasures to this so she does have a big open gesture she kind of holds this beach ball there and she does chunk up to a bigger concept so that's a really good idea hold a big beach ball and now start thinking about bigger concepts however she then brings it down to some kind of small melon over here and she's gone back to detail about budgets which was what she was trying to avoid with this bigger concept she goes down to this melon of budgets she then shifts it over somewhere else now she doesn't know what to do with it and now she's kind of she's she's kind of pushing flour together she's baking bread somewhere and she's lost it completely so if she had have just stuck with that beach ball there and the higher concept and just as chase has been saying managed to fly up at 10 000 feet and then drop in with some kind of sliced gesture into exactly what she wants the British people to know that would have been a good move she's left kind of floating around somewhere on this one and it's not going to get a lot better for her sure we do a better job of laying the ground what many of your MP's fear is because interest rates are on the way up because the cost of government borrowing is going up as we've seen this morning the fear is that the consequences will be more taxpayers cash will be eaten up there'll be less money for everything else are you going to cut public spending I don't accept that argument and I will do what I can to win the hearts and minds of my colleagues across the Conservative Party because I believe we need to grow the size of the pie that's fundamentally what we need to do as a country and we've had two decades of relatively low growth but what I'm answering your question Laura what low growth means low growth means people aren't able to get the jobs they deserve no no my question was lower wages and they mean less money for public services they mean but are you so this is why growth is so important and that is at the core of our economic policy but are you going to cut public right I'll go first on this one when Liz says I don't accept that she goes into total politician mode after that she looks at what she thinks is the camera that's that's on her and it's not and she even puts out her her fist with a thumb on top up to do that and gives what I don't I'm not familiar with with her political style and everything but I would assume that's the same face she would use every time on TV every time she's she's on the at the podium and pitching something or talking about voting for her talking about something political I think that's the face she probably probably makes and I think it's odd that she's answering to the camera not that she should be she should be talking to the interviewer so it makes her look even weirder she's like trying to go like I'm shoving you off and talking to the people and just I don't I don't think it worked her cadence speeds up a little bit her volume gets a little bit louder her tone changes it gets a little bit higher she's getting worked up at this point so I think the the tactics of the interviewer are working and I don't think that Liz understands how to how to take control of something because she's trying her best I think but it's not really working out for her chase what do you got yeah somebody tries these tactics with you and you're in a conversation like facing away from you on purpose or interrupting you bring it up into the light bring it up you say yeah I realize this can be persuasive to some people and make it look like you're in a position of authority point the situation out in some instances that is a great idea to do because it makes people very conscious of it so you're not having an unconscious influence because you forced it into the conscious part of it right when she says the hearts and minds she shifts to almost a caricature of a politician mixing the kind of the Bill Clinton hand gesture here and the Nixon knife hand right there and then smiling at what I assume is some camera she thinks is the live one Scott like you were saying there and watching this whole interview is almost meaningless mark you were saying while we were in between recordings here there's no questions that are answered interviewer has such a hard line narrative that she can't let Liz finish a single thought so one person has a narrative that is like made of titanium and the other person is unable to answer or doesn't answer the questions directly in the first place mark what do you got yeah so this goes somewhere fantastic for me which is uh into classic Boris Johnson style metaphors so she talks about we're gonna uh we're gonna grow the size of the pie so and that's that's what Boris would do all the time talking food metaphors you remember uh he had he had um brexit being oven ready he had the idea of you can have your cake and eat it so this is this is a classic for for Boris a classic for English politics on the whole if you can use a food metaphor the British public will go oh yeah food oh pie yeah well we want a pie if there's a bigger pie in it yeah I mean who who can deny that a bigger pie is better than a smaller pie so she's done a very skillful political move there by talking about pies very British food it's it's very similar to her legendary cheese rant of 2014 at the conservative party conference where she she waxed lyrical about how most of British cheese was coming from abroad not not bringing into account the fact that the French make excessively good cheese and so do the Dutch for example and of course if you're in Britain and you're like cheese well you're gonna get some cheese from Europe because there's exceptionally good cheese from Europe as well anyway um then she goes into growth is so important and she wants to stress the core of the economic policy so she's now moved into the ideas of growth metaphors almost apple tree metaphors again great thing to go in British British politics is to talk about classically British things like apple trees and apples and and cores and things growing because the British love their their gardens and their countryside so um so great maneuver from her because she is on the back foot because she's going for some metaphors and some ideas that the British public can't help but but listen to and be positive towards although it's only a counter measure it's not going to do her any any good uh in the end uh Greg what do you got on this one yeah it's clear she does however this time take over the leading question remember when you have a narrative you're trying to get you're going to ask are did we'll have can't all your after is getting that person to admit and then it doesn't matter how much back paddling or or duck paddling they do they still look like they're they're reinforcing your message she doesn't she she takes control of it and then restates what she was trying to say and moves to a polite version of chat very English not just a bunch of spewing like most American politicians but very British very contained but she does chat and redirect she's trying to redirect and then she I couldn't tell her it's a camera or there might be two people over there she was turning a look at but she's talking to an audience an intended audience where there's two actual people or they represent someone else or there's a camera can't tell but she turns that way and respiration increases just slightly as this interviewer is not going to have it and starts trying to step on her again and control and regulate then she says I am answering and when she does her forehead comes up and her upper lids rise that's aggression and she's saying look I got control of this and then here we go again but this interviewer doesn't want to hear it and restates her question and starts pushing so I think all of this aside mark to your point she's trying to score a point with people out there but so is this interviewer because they're different audiences it's what we see all the time in in any political situation you're in two different parties and they're going after it core of our economic but are you going to cut public spending because one of your cabinet ministers said this week Simon Clarke he said we look at a state which is extremely large and we have to look at how we can make sure that is in full alignment with a lower tax economy now what does that mean well I I believe in getting value for money for the taxpayer that's very important to me and the way that we are going to improve our economy is for example get it helping more people get into work that saves the government money but it also contributes to the economy so what we will have is a long-term plan for reform help more people get into work make our economy more productive get better value for money for the taxpayer but Prime Minister I've asked you if you're going to cut spending on public services are you going to cut spending on public services well what I'm going to do is make sure we get value for money for the taxpayer but I'm very very committed to making sure we've got excellent frontline public services and I'm not going to go into what the Chancellor will announce in his medium term fiscal plan at the end of November he's going to announce that very shortly it will come together with an OBR forecast that's very important but hang on but my approach is to help people get through this very difficult winter and it's a problem we're facing internationally are you going to cut public spending on public services and I've asked you a couple of times and and normally the fact that you might answer it directly suggests that you're going to know it doesn't know it doesn't because I can't exactly set out what is going to be in this plan what I can promise is we're going to reduce debt as a proportion of GDP by when but the point in the medium term and we will set out exactly what that is when we put out the medium term fiscal plan but the point about reducing debt as a proportion of GDP is it all depends on how fast the economy is growing and the key thing is to get the economy growing faster so the pie is bigger and we can afford more money for great public services great way to go let me let me point out something we usually say we're Switzerland we don't have an opinion in this I candidly don't know enough about British politics to have an opinion but I can tell you something interesting here I before it's overall say I can answer for her probably based on her body language as to whether she's going to cut social spending the interviewer squints in the beginning at that lower tax economy sear squint and then she does the finer point as she asks the question the trump thing where she puts her fingers together and she's pushing her and she does something artful we talk about interviewers using artful technique she uses naivete which is an elicitation technique so what does that mean I want you to educate me you're going to tell me details then she starts down it and here the the pm becomes very emphatic with her head nod at value to the taxpayer it reminds me of if you remember Erin Caffey kill my parents she does did the same thing push her head forward and blink her eyes at the same time pretty powerful then she puts her palm up in a single-handed illustrator she's feeling more comfortable now than doing this kind of wooden thing she was doing in the beginning what I'm not going to do is let in you pay attention she's not letting her use the same tools on her she's used before she takes control of the question and this is like politicians typically do in the news okay you gave me the rope I'm going to take it and run with it and then you can reel me back in as you will and chase you see her doing the Bill Clinton buggy whip hold that they went away from doing this where the whip with a finger to carrying the buggy whip after Bill Clinton that happened at the Monica Lewinsky scandal if you want to go back and look at presidents American presidents always did this before the interesting piece and this is why I said I can tell you what she thinks and you know I can't read minds but she shrinks her body gets smaller and her voice starts to fry and her cadence shifts as she says no it doesn't when she's saying does that mean you're going to cut social spending my guess is yes uh Scott what you got I think this is as important in this interview because it shows right it's that point when when I don't know a lot about boxing or anything with the few boxing fights I've seen when they're boxing there comes a point in there where you know the guys beat you know what one guy's gonna lose she's lost every of her air she's lost her oomph at this point I lost her fight because she's still swinging still trying to fight but she like you're saying Greg she's gotten smaller and Oliver her illustrators have moved now to her left hand everything she was she was using her she was using her left hand dominantly but she was also using her right hand I think she's lost at this point when she starts saying um when she asks her the question and I think we know what the answer is I think she's lost at that point because everything's over here and I think when she's over here she's trying to make stuff up she's trying to come up with an answer because she goes back to the pie and all these things she talked about before she's just reiterating everything up to that point she's going back and going through stuff her breathing her breath rate is is high her her blink rate is high like you were saying Greg her her voice tone is up a little bit and it's getting higher she's getting weaker at this point so I think this is important I think this is right before she gets gets knocked out in the fight in other words um and then when she gets she tries to get back in her safe zone as a politician here as well like you were saying I think that's where she feels the safest because of where she is and what's gotten her there so she keeps reverting back to that and it's it's not working this this other woman isn't gonna let her have any room whatsoever she's in there's way on order chase what do you got let me try to explain this in a slightly different way that uh I saw this morning when I was going through these videos this hand out gesture you see here is common in interrogations when a guilty person is over explaining with lots of detail about all the wrong things why they're innocent that's why the hand stays out for so long I felt like Mark doing that with my hand that close to the camera but the detail spike the detail spike is about everything except for what the question is about this on its own you suggest deception we all of us here talk a lot about baseline clusters of behavior I'll go out on a limb here these guys may disagree with me but this is one situation where a single behavior can stand on its own if there's a ton of detail about everything and zero detail about the actual question I think that can stand on its own for deception and you this is where you ask for one of thing one thing and you get like none of it the person dumps 200 pounds of other things onto the table except for the one thing that you asked for so in this situation the detail spike or detail mountain is around vague benefits and ideas and the detail drop which is maybe a detail valley is around the specific question that was asked this is likely deception mark we go yeah so it is a real problem because look right at the start of it she gets her hand involved and she starts to bring in the shoulder as well and I'd say that is purposeful because she wants to give the impression of more action like I'm putting my shoulder into this we're going to have action we're going to do some work around something but you don't see the fingers moving so there is no real detail around what this action will be now the interviewer here has kind of trapped her because she is getting her into detail and the problem with the detail of politics is number one even if you under if you know what details you're going to have if you know your policy it'll be hard to explain and you know your tactics it'll be hard to explain and the public won't quite get it I'm the public are smart but politics is really difficult so so even with the smartest public out there politics gets real politics real detail gets really boring and and inconsequential for most people so you never want to get involved in the detail well she's gone right into it even if she had some detail it would be a bad place to go in this situation she doesn't have any details around this because she has an ideology which is here's how the economy should should run and she has one idea which is knock off a few pence off the 45 pence but she's got one tactic one strategy which you cannot really talk about anymore so now she is she is lost and I think that's why we got true blink rate up there I think if you take out all the baselines that we've seen and all the other reasons why blink rate would be high because maybe she punctuates with it I think it's extended quite a bit she's really on the back foot so there's a nice bit from the interviewer where she pulls back her hair because she's just about to say hey your cabinet your your back benches your party aren't aligned with this at all which is murder to hear for a prime minister because it means you're probably going to get ousted very very soon and plunge the country again into a situation where we don't know who the prime minister is so so that's that maneuver of you may think I'm I'm I'm just you know just a simple female but here comes the big hit and she hits the hard with that look trust in the end does come back to the pie very beautifully it's a surefire winner because suddenly you think as a as an English person yeah but we're going to get a bigger pie and there's nothing wrong there's no downside to a bigger pie so let's let's hear her out a little bit longer sounds like we've got a pie in it for us viewer last night saying we're very grateful for the help we've had with our energy bills but the effect of the mini budget or mortgages has meant hundreds more each month for us in mortgage payments your energy help may help millions of people it may be generous it will help but this cost is being wiped out for other by other costs and increases in mortgages what is the logic of giving people money to help with their energy bills if they then lose some of it because their mortgage goes through the roof because of the consequence of the decisions you've made well I understand that people are worried and people are struggling it's a very difficult time we have to look at the mortgage issue separately which is the bank of England set interest rates not the government you know this has rightly been independent since 1997 and we are facing a world in which interest rates are rising in fact our interest rates set by the bank of England are lower than those of the federal reserve and lower the those other countries do you acknowledge that some people are going to end up being worse off because their mortgage has gone up by more than their energy bill is being controlled by the government's phrase do you accept that we want to do all we can to help homeowners you know we've we've helped with stamp duty that was one of the announcements in the mini budget but ultimately interest rates are a matter for the independent bank of England and the independent bank of England do have to look at what is happening around the world interest rates and mortgages are not set by the bank of England mortgage rates are a product of all sorts of factors including decisions for government factor the interest rates are a key factor in mortgage rates and those are set by the bank of England and they're somewhat dependent on the global market so Laura we are not dealing with the issues we're dealing with in isolation we're dealing with these issues in a world where there's a slowing global economy and whether a rising interest rates where there is huge inflation mainly driven by energy caused by Vladimir Putin's war and I as prime minister and the chancellor have to deal with that in the way that we think will help people in Britain most get through these very very difficult short-term circumstances but put our country on the best long term all right Greg what do you got yeah I'll start off very simply she swallows very hard a few times in gear now that could be a lot of reasons it could be that all this is built up on her up to now and it's not likely this question because here she can easily say look it's not me this is tied to a whole bunch more stuff than my government and it's actually probably one of the easier places for her to divert and you notice it in her body language because she does good congruent body language for their separate issues so you see that but we also see when they hit that mortgage issue she does an internal voice for the very first time we say internal voice she drops down to her left to think about how do I navigate this because it doesn't matter whether or not she has any control over or not if she comes up and says let them eat cake she's done so she has to be cautious what she says but her she's congruent in those those illustrators and mark I don't know the politics of it at all but when she says that the bank was rightly separated in 1997 there's a cadence shift and a massive tongue jut of disapproval that's distaste don't know why don't know enough about the politics of you know conservative verses but then she starts on this right hand about all the things in the world that have caused her problems and gets away from all the domestic issues interesting because that's one mark I'd love to hear the politics I saw hinted to you all right yeah well let me give you the politics on on on that one and you're right the breathing goes way higher on this convergence of energy and mortgages as well because it's a perfect storm for a for a massive amount of the British public there and she tries to deflect off that there is there is she does not have control of interest rates and she does that by saying interest and that's rightly so well it depends on 1997 due to Tony Blair and brown the chance so this was a labor initiative a labor her her guide it's her opposition yep who did this and so you know what do you do in that kind of situation because it's like they had the right idea it's rightly so and it and but it shouldn't be rightly so she because she should be opposed to that in in many many ways and so I think that's what the tongue jut now is the tongue jet jut complete disgust and distaste for this I think it's the position she's in right now which is hang on I'm caught in a bit of a spot here basically espousing that that Tony Blair did the right thing at this point so I think that's what's going on here um you know and there's a lot of stress now around this situation until she manages to bring it and regain some control with this hand here around macroeconomics and there's just you know there's Putin's war and there's stuff we can't do anything about which may have some veracity to it and she feels more confident about chase what you got on this one yeah that was educational so thanks for that right at this kind of mortgage issue there's a down left movement which is internal dialogue pushes the issue away with her hands and just talks about something else so mark you were on point about a little bit of this like she did one thing that that you suggested maybe on accident and when she's saying Laura we're not dealing with these issues in isolation there's a postural retreat she's moving back in a way from the other person elevated hand which I think is this just a desire to continue speaking it shows a little bit of deference and when Greg and Mark were just talking about the breathing increase or we breathe faster and up more into our chest when we're stressed out so they're talking about stress here and right here in the shift to political uh agreement language we're going to see there there's a lot of things that are said that are obviously happening to get people to agree so I'm just going to say a whole bunch of stuff that's happening right now and people are going to be like oh that's true that's true that's true and then tack something on at the end of it it's an ancient technique from who knows when Mark could probably tell you and then the 17 Shakespeare plays that disappeared in I don't know but I do know that it's extremely effective as simplistic and ridiculously simple as it is it's still very effective at getting us to say well the first three things were true and subconsciously we'll think oh well the next one is following along so that makes sense too it's a highly effective argument highly effective technique I'll say Scott what do you got all right her posture has changed completely here I think this is where she's defeated she's showing everything that says that her brain is in defense mode not fight or flight freeze fight or flight she's in she's just defending herself at this point I think she's her legs are closer together her arms are closer together everything's tightened up on her she's not moving much the movements are really are really slow when there are movements her um her blink rate is going so fast I'm I bet you could hear it humming if you got real close to you get here humming sound like hummingbird wings or something it's going so fast and her cadence slows down her voice gets really weak she's at this point I think she's she's defeated and we get the impression that she's still being open ended or still being open by the way she's trying to talk but that's not working for as well either so I think at this point she's I'm trying not to cover the same things you guys have talked about but I think she's just at this point lost I think she's been beaten down at this point she couldn't do it and a leader supposed to be able to to come up rise up and get above that and at least attack back if you're not going to get up leave at the beginning like I was talking about all right let's throw her around the room real quick and in 30 seconds or less see what we think we've been looking at here mark you want to go first yeah interesting battle there that I don't think she won in the end because she really is on the back foot there big piece of ideology no real detail just one tactic which is 45 pence and so no wonder there was a u-turn on this just a few days or a day afterwards chase what do you think it's a recipe for disaster you have a politician who makes the biggest mistake of all politicians which is pretending to be perfect we all people like people who aren't perfect they have a reporter that has a strong narrative we hate people with narratives look at joe rogan we love the people that are real don't pretend to be perfect don't have a narrative uh greg what do you got yeah this is one of those situations and regardless of which country you're in you're always going to have opposition and when a person steps up to the plate they're going to have the heat for whatever happened before them doesn't matter how they got there and they're going to have to try to keep at least as many people as happy as they can be without getting fired one of the best things you can do when your politician is not to step into the narrative trap did you will you are you can you have you yes then no matter what you say after that it's all just fuel for the fire and she does pick up closer then but i think it's a little bit late and she's already gotten that stress it's got you talked about it not being full blown fight or flight guys when we talk about fight or flight we're not talking about the kind of terror that you feel when wolves are attacking you but every little subtle bit of that amygdala recognizing a threat still has an impact and those same chemicals in different degrees still affect your body you just don't get to to the point where you collapse and fail because of it and so we all are going to have we have to fight the animal while we're trying to keep the thinking person on top of it it's got what you got all right yeah i agree with you and i think what we're seeing is um a prime minister who is slowly being deflated if you watch these videos just scooch through each one of them you'll see you're just getting lower and lower and just getting quieter and quieter she goes along the more she fights the worse it gets for because i don't think she knows how to fight and i think it's just it's i don't want to say it's sad but i felt kind of sorry for her because she really didn't she couldn't fight her way out of that she couldn't come on strong and be like hey you know yeah it was i think we saw her get deflated slowly but surely along in there all right well i think it's a good fellas and we'll see you next time