 Hello everyone. Hello everyone. Hi Dora. Hi Mina. So great to see you here. Great to see you too. So we are going to have a conversation with Dora Ariola, who is one of the artistic directors of Mujeres El Rutwal and is also a faculty at the University of South Florida. And I am so pleased to welcome you, Dora, to this conversation on our National Forum, which is the National Institute for Directing and Ensemble Creation. It's great to have you here. And before we begin, I just want to acknowledge that Pangeo World Theatre is located in Minneapolis and we are on the traditional and contemporary homeland of the Dakota people. And we are really proud and privileged to work with Anishinaabe Ojib Dakota and other First Nations people in the Twin Cities. So thank you so much and Art to Action is located in Florida and both organizations are really, we are deeply aware that we're on Turtle Island and that we do this work in deference to the First Nations of this land as well. So welcome Dora. It's wonderful to see you and we just finished a masterclass with you and it was just such an amazing and exciting masterclass for those of you who watched it. And for those of you who didn't, you have the opportunity of going back and watching it on howl around. Thank you Mina. Thank you for the invitation. It's an honor to be here at this institute. Great. So a little bit about Dora. And I'm going to let you speak about yourself Dora because we'll have your bio and people will know how amazingly accomplished you are by just seeing the chats and of the various spaces. Your bio is on our website. It's on the National Institute page as well. But I just want to say something about Dora from a very personal point of view. Dora is an amazing, amazing director. She has been faculty in our National Institute for directing. She comes with more than three or four decades of directing experience. And she's been worked all over the world. She's worked in multiple countries, bringing her special expertise, not only to theater, but also to dance companies. She really is an amazing mover herself. And one of the things I admire about Dora and we'll speak a little bit about is the rigor of her practice. And I have the great privilege of seeing her work, not only in a piece of work by actual action that Penji presented, but also seeing a piece of her directing with Ananya Dance Theater, which was an exclusively movement piece, which is a little text. And it was a very exquisite, beautiful piece. And she worked with Ananya for many months to develop the concept and do the work itself. Dora has her own company, Mujeres Endritual, which is situated in Mexico. And so I've had many, many conversations with Dora. And so I'm really thrilled to do this online with an audience and be able to present this amazing woman's work on video. So Dora, tell us a little bit about yourself. And how did you come to directing as a career for life and your teaching practice as well? Thank you, Mina. And I remember the first time I will say that I saw like a traditional theater, but I will say that before that I was playing theater and films as a child in the patio of my house, right? And I had a box, like it was the camera. And I was probably six, seven, eight years playing, like making sets with wood boxes that my father had in a storage, because he was putting vegetables in boxes that the ones who has the sticks of wood that make the box. He has a storage of those. And I created the station. But definitely it was not something inspired by going to the theater. I was only going to the film, to the movie theater. I didn't have that culture, but I was doing creative work since very little. And dance, of course, I was motivated to dance more than to perform or to sing. My family was a great motivator for dancing. And basically everybody in my house is a mover in dancing and have great rhythms and no steps. So this is my background. But when I was in high school, it was a, of course, I was in a theater club in high school. And that teacher for X or Y, she left and abandoned us as a group. She left the school and we didn't have a director. So I was like, I want to do theater. If I need to direct, I will direct. So I direct my class roommates, my whole class. It was like 30 students. So the play was about the 1963. It was a massacre in Mexico. Students' massacre in 1963. It's still in the terrible history side of Mexico that massacres students. So I direct a play about that. It was very political. It was like I needed everybody in the class, in my class, to be in the show because I needed soldiers. I needed protesters. I needed all kinds of... So it was my first. I did it with the help of my family in some way. I brought all the pieces of furniture from my house, the dishes, the curtains, the covers, everything from my house. And curiously, I continued in some way thinking about community and using my own resources as a director, as a woman director. Because I was still in my time when I was in high school. I was in an environment that I should not direct. I should not have the spaces to rehearse. Those were the spaces for male students, basically, that they have, in some way, somehow, preferences. We prefer it by the leaders of that high school to have male directors. Anyway, I was kind of in my own world. And thanks to that, thanks to being my kind of oblivious of the, in some way, misogyny or sexism in the systems, being so busy doing the work, I kind of didn't care. But obviously, I was doing a very, like, unproduced work. So that's my origins, a very poor origins of theater. But it's something that I enjoy doing it. And then I had the opportunity to be part of other companies in Mexico. And then to meet the, I think nothing is casual, but I met Jesse Grotowski in Irvine, California. And he saw one piece that I was developing with, it was a dance from where I come from. It's from Isinaloa, Mexico. So we have special dance, traditional dances. And he saw my audition with this particular dance, particular songs and particular, not particular story. I created the dialogue, and I was playing two characters. And he invited me to work with him in Italy. And it was very hard for me to find the resources to go at that time, of course. And, but anyway, I was in my own, I will say my own bubble. I didn't care about the obstacles. I was rebel. I was a rebel. I was Grotowski mentioned that I was a volcano at that time when I was young. But he noticed that a volcano only, the energy of that volcano will stay only if I train, if I have a technique. So I will never forget that. I will never forget that. That we can lose everything of the Joe's stages, right? As a young person, we have energy and beauty. And we have all the things that we think that we own the world. But those things are illusions, right? Those things change and disappear. But there is something that you can keep the whole life. And that is technique. And of course, technique in my own interpretation of technique is a spiritual practice and physical practice. And I'm trying to be impeccable in terms of physical training, although I'm imperfect, absolutely. But I'm trying. Thank you. You are a volcano, that's for sure. And for those of you who have joined us late, this is a conversation with Dora Arriola. And it's for the National Institute for Directing and Ensemble Creation that is co-facilitated by Art to Action and Fengyo World Theater. So welcome, those of you who joined us late. And I'm just going to ask you a little bit about something that you mentioned. So I just wanted to touch on that a little bit and you talked about how you were not supposed to do that work. You were a female, you know, as a woman in a very male profession. And so I kind of, I was very curious about some of the systemic barriers that you faced as you grew into your chosen path, especially in this country. How did you transcend? How did you, and I feel like as directors of color or people of color, we're never able, you know, we have to talk about excellence, technique, craft, and also though we face barriers and we have systemic things like racism and patriarchy that are especially for women directors. So I just wanted to, you know, address that briefly and then jump into your process after that. Sure, of course, Mina. I think that is a big part of my process, right, to overcome all these systemic obstacles. Absolutely. It's like those obstacles actually, how do I say it, how to say it in English, but I want to say force us, not force us in the good way, like really a challenge. And so for the first, the first thing that you mentioned about that in, I already, about feeling in being in the middle of that kind of a territorial territory of male, territorial men, right, because everybody knows that film theater and a lot of other professions, especially since my, when I was a student, it was a male dominant. And even something that is separate from theater, I started marine biology, forget it, I mean, not that I don't love marine biology, I love, of course, that. We have that in common though, I didn't know that actually. Marine biology, right? And it was very close to my house, that college, and that was my family will allow that I studied because it was close to my house and theater was very far, it was in Mexico City, so I love marine biology, even there, it was so territorial. I mean, I was bullied today. I was, I mean, absolutely discriminated as female as a woman, right? And I kind of, I had a time in my life that I was oblivious of it. I thought it was normal. So, and I was doing theater anyway, and although I was political, right, in selecting the place that had something political, I was oblivious about gender, or I don't want to hear, I don't know, maybe it was a combination, because it was very tough. It was very tough, and definitely the level of racism in Mexico is more normalized, but they are, there is a connected to classism, right? So that was another obstacle that I needed to, because if I needed to be in a group or learn from a group, the classist barriers were there too. So to whom belong the knowledge, right? To whom belong the, who has access? And who has access is the same in every country, in every, you know, colonized country and non-colonized country. It's the same thing. It's about who has access is a white, the dominant culture, right? The heterosexual, white, men, women, even gay men. They have also a status in the chain of access to things. And so I needed to find my way to, even Mina, I needed to create a company who has its own physical vocabulary, because the body, the movement will be the substitute to production, to set, to props, to, we will be all the time minimalist, but complex also. So for me it was very clear that minimalist doesn't mean superficial. Minimalist, it means something is very deep. So I didn't have resources to have, you know, the, if I develop a concept, I will develop a concept that I know I can bring to the stage. And I will adapt to that, although, you know, I can direct in different ways, but I was more interested in a more simple theater, like a poor theater in some way, like not putting in objects, but rich in content, rich in aesthetics, in aesthetics. So that's why, that's kind of, I resist, I was a resilient of being rejected, not being asked to work with, not being commissioned, like I create my own resistance to that, but I was very lucky. And one of the things I feel lucky with is with Paglia World Theater, Art to Action, and particularly to the Institute, it was like a place where I can go and explore the things that I was thinking about. For example, the practice of Ensueño, I collaborate with Charon Day, and we talk about this practice, and Charon Day and I gave a workshop together, and we were exploring it. And if you were not for Institute of, this National Institute of Directing and Sample Creation, I would not, I would be not exploring these ideas of directing. And so in United States, I felt imposter, an imposter, just like I should not be here, I should not direct, I should not be artist, because I don't speak English, because I'm Mexican, because I am, but because I was believing that, of course, also I need to continue being working in my empowerment, but I was a certain point not ready to, to, to allow, put myself, the whole part of myself, being in place, I mean, to be with the whole part of myself. In United States, I feel in pieces. The one who is, who started with Grotowski, the one who has a company, but also, you know, I don't, English is not my first language. I did an MFA in, in always the people get like, really, how that happens, like they don't, I felt that I need to convince more than a other person, I need to convince what I can do. And that takes a lot of energy. Just trying to feel that I'm, I'm not an imposter. So I want to just tell the people that working that you are not an imposter. You just, in a place that has a lot of requirements to, to see who you are and that you, in this, and to also to apply for, to apply equity and, and equal, equality and equity. So those, those are the things that we are moving, we are pushing forward. Thank you so much, Dora. That was just so much there in terms of even like, you know, you're so confident as a director. Now, when I see you, I see you as such a confident person. But what it takes to take all those fragments and make ourselves whole is something that is a lifelong process. And it actually takes time to do that. So I feel like you're talking about that, that conversation for those of you who don't know Sharon Day is a very huge part of our institute she's an Ojibwe medicine woman who's an amazing and brilliant artist who participates in that who is an elder in Pangea World Theatre as an art to actions National Institute for directing and ensemble creation. So please do check her work out. It's in the, she works in the Twin Cities, and she's just such, and she's an amazing human being. So, Dora, just to come back to, you know, we just experienced a masterclass from your weeks and it was really a masterclass. Seriously, you know, I, even though it was my, my own play that you chose. I, I found myself also dreaming and trying to access images. One of Dora's exercises was to access images from the text, just like to go into a state of deep meditation and to access those images. So, I, it was really useful as a practice and I'm going to take that forward and use it in some of my when I write my, you know, in future plays. But I just wanted to talk, because you've done this for such a long time. I wanted to tell you to tell us a little bit about your process about how you take this, you know, this in terms of how you work to develop these concepts. How, you know, can you describe that in maybe an original piece of work, and then maybe in a piece that already that there's already a text for. I feel like those are two different things, you know, like, because you do so much original work, but you also work on the texts of other writers and that would be lovely to get an insight into that. Yes, of course, that is a very different approach to an original piece that is devising, devising work, and the, the, to work with a script that already exists and or a poem, actually. There's a lot of different approaches to that. So I want to start with a play that doesn't exist, that it is like just the group is there. There is an issue that they want to talk about, or is just that they want to be together as a collective and ensemble of in case, in the case of mujeres en ritual, women of both sides of the border, right? From Mexico and from United States, from San Diego, in San Isidro, California area, in Tijuana, in Senada, Mexicali area. Just, just to put these two groups together, we don't need to even start the conversation. We know what we will talk about. We know that we will talk about women's experience at the border of Mexico and United States. So Mina, at that point, the concept is kind of just kind of checking us. I mean, it's in front of us. But anyway, I will not be the, I will not take the immediate, immediate image, I will say, when I work with that, with that original piece or with a text that exists. I will not be content. I will not be happy. Maybe I will come back and it will be the first image. But before that, I will go and do acrobatics. I will, with my emotions, with my memories, with my traumas, with my past, I will do the process that requires to look at my other side. And then, and, and, you know, the charos and lights of myself, like it will be the process, it will be the, in some way, the internal process will be the same. But I think that a device piece, the research is in the doing it. Right. Because I explained it in my, in my session that you do the practice of the en sueño or the meditations with the text after that you did an extensive research of your, of the text, like trying to discover things that you don't see or you don't see in the text, not even in the director's notes or quotations notes, something that, so always I'm looking at things that are not there. So I will say that that will be applied to both sides, but one is that you are involved in that, in the, you are not researching outside so much, you are researching inside when it's an original work. You are improvising with some of the, by the way, I needed to develop structures to explore movement. And if I am, for example, I directed outside the circle that was an original play, that it's required to do a lot of improvisation. And then after the improvisations, the writers will go and write down the improvisations. And after the write down, we need to kind of come across with the connections between the scenes. So there is more work inside the text that outside. And even, and I'm not talking about the process of the enseño yet. I am talking about the process of the collective, the ensemble work is a devising process. And so I think that that devising process requires not only everybody's collaboration, every single person there, collaboration, but also that in this case if I'm leading or more than me in the group are leading, we need to come up with designing exercises to run this improvisation. So I was able to collect those practices, also those exercises, improvisation exercises. And I become like a fan of doing that, describing the process. That was for the devising. But I do myself adaptations of plays. For example, I did the adaptation of a short story of Elena Garro, who is a very important Mexican writer and playwright, Elena Garro. And I adapted a short story to a density of ritual piece that it was so far from the, from the, the reading of the text will be like 10 minutes by the show was one hour. So I think that, that, however, for that particular piece, I needed to be the, the twin of Elena Garro. I needed to investigate the writer to read everything, although I was already a fan of her. I knew her, so I have that, that I needed to direct her. The same thing with Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, that is a very important writer from Mexico. And I needed to direct one of the most important plays of her that is The Dream. That is actually, it's called First I Dream, Primero Sueño de Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz. And I did extensive, extensive research. So that's my answer, Mina. And I, I do as much as possible in research on the writers, on the piece, and as much information that I can have, it will guide, guide me to a place that is, is profound. And because I will not be happy with the first reading. I will not be happy with the first one, one book about the writer, right? So, so yes, and then of course I need to come up with a concept, with a vision. So I can put myself in a place where everybody's dreaming, dreaming for a better life, for a better world. So that's the ultimate that this En Sueño practice, it will bring you to a deep place of dreams and hopes, right? You pass through fears and that's, that's fine. You pass through charos and that's, you need to pass that valley. And find your deepest hopes and dreams for a better society, better world. That's very beautiful. I mean, I feel like you've really given us a window into how you bring your voice into the work. But also I remember that you talked about having a video showing your original work and talking through concepts. Yes. Yes, I have, we can go ahead and put the video, it's a short video, four minutes video of mujeres en ritual. Just to kind of, to give the, to connect what I'm saying. And because sometimes we can be in the world of, you know, the other side, the right side of ideas, but what is in the practice? So go ahead and run it. Thank you, Kayla. So what you see here is my company in Mexico doing a performance at the border of the Mexican border of the United States in, in San Diego in Tijuana. And at this particular time, actually it was like probably will be two years ago. It was all the things about the caravan that was coming through Mexico and going into the United States. So we brought a play that we normally perform in the studios and we brought up that play that was my first play, mujeres en ritual. It's a name we brought it to the, to the border. So you, what you are looking here is the moment that we are improvising. We are using some traditional dances from Mexico songs. And, and we start to improvise. For example, in this case, you, you, you can see obviously that my concept is in connection to little chairs and apples. And, and what, what was the, the, the, for me, the concept of the little chairs was a group of a woman, one woman going into the, into the first house that she lived like the first house of the family. And the, the object that was there, it was a little chair. And that little chair will accompany her to, to do a tour in the house, but it was not a tour. It was a deja vu of images and memories and, and all related to being sometimes lost. And so it's moving the, this very, very quick into different productions, right? So this particular, the ones that we are seeing here is, well, there was there, it was Medea. And this one is the last production that we are doing with Celeste Miller that is called Women's at What is Age. We have images also of deviant's borders from Teras Desviadas with Andrea Saf and Maria Valle. And where we explore here the, the sex industry in Tijuana and Maquiladoras and Feminicidio at the border. Again, these images of Antigone at the border with these three actors, Kenia, Gisela and Miguel. The, it was an adaptation of Antigona Furiosa, the first Antigona by Grisela Gambaro from Argentina. Same thing with this, with this Antigona at the border. We moved the play from this, from the room, from the studio where I normally present and open my shows in Mexico, in the studios and then we start to move it. So since we don't have any venues, we use the, the desert, the border. This is a border in Tijuana. It's called the, is where all the, the borders from United States go and are waiting to cross. It's called the Bordo. And since are being mixed already, but basically what I want to share here and to, to, to use for this conversation is that the use of movement is consistent in, in all my, my shows. I, I think that probably my challenge will be the stillness, right? To, to look at that possibility. But movement is like, is holding the physical vocabulary and also traditional elements from, from Mexico rituals. And as I mentioned in songs, this is the dance of the deer, for example, that I practice. Are, are elements that must be in the, in my work. Again, the use of the natural sets that exist in Baja California, like the dunes and again the Pacific Ocean. And all actually this scene ended inside of the water. So everybody ended like almost floating in this contested area of Mexico and United States and the United States. So it's important for us to, to be there. Yes. Your work is deeply, deeply political, right? I mean, I feel like every piece that I've seen it's like at the border, it's the Maculaderas, it's the different, I mean, you really kind of select these themes. So I, I wanted to ask you just how, how you particularly select the themes for your work when you do original work. And we've talked a little bit about how you do your concepts within a play, but how do you, when you are, you know, when you have no projects, or perhaps you have five projects, but how do you, at the same time, which wouldn't surprise me. You know, yes, I, you know, Mina, I have, I will say, recurrences to not say obsessions, but I have, I have my, the themes that it will come up, doesn't matter what I will do. And I just want to also say that one of the themes that, that, that it will be like, I don't know if it's magical or something is, is migration. You know, that, that it has a lot of connotation, migration. And I was listening to the, the, the participants in my session that couple of them brought a lot of images that I, I feel very connected to and, and I was, it was like, wow, they were connected. You know, that Ova brought the story of his family moving and, and Erika Azevedo brought images that were like, like, just hashing me, like describing in, in, in high, and I noticed that, that that particular description of Erika Azevedo, Erika, has that, that the reading of the ecosystems, the filter of the ecosystems. And thank you, Erika. I think that it is a very important filter in this moment to talk about ecosystem, to talk about the earth, the planet, the, what we are doing, what we are doing, how this, how can we change the destruction that is happening in the earth in this moment. And I think, although I will be doing a, a play about the border, as you see the water is there, the fence is there, and then the, the, the dancers climbing the border is connected to migration, but also is connected to women's in relations to, you know, to climates, climate change. You know, it's, it's, it's a Pacific ocean that is like, reminding, reminding that we are in a climate, a climate crisis. So, and then, then, then the, this migration theme that, that it will come in many ways, in many forms. It will come and, and it should not be separated from that reading from a, the ecosystem from the, the crisis, the global crisis, the climate global, the climates globalist, global climate crisis, and that is connected to colonization as well. So, Dora, I mean, one of the things that you've really spoken about is the fact, I mean, you talk about the minimalist aesthetic of your work, you talk about, you know, the class that you belong to. So, and, you know, what I admire about you is that you just began your own theater and sort of waiting for other people to give you jobs, you just said, okay, I'm just going to begin my own work, right. So, I wanted to ask you, like, what would be, as we are kind of coming to a close with eight more minutes. So I want to make sure that I asked this question to you, like, what would be the advice you would give young directors. You know, what, what would be our advice to, you know, because we see so many young directors, we run a directing institute and a mentorship institute and you have like, you know, you probably you teach young folks in your university in Florida, but you also mentor people through our directing institute. So what would be it as you see young directors coming out into the field as they're choosing their careers would be your advice. Absolutely, young directors of color, queer directors, trans directors, you, we will not have the same access as other directors. And so we need to work in ourselves, empowering ourselves to not feel that we are imposters, that we belong to that art world, artistic world, and that we have things to say, things to communicate that we want to change the world. Don't feel stranger in in this field. You belong to this field and find your connections that find the people will that will support your work. But while you are finding those persons that you don't find it direct, just pick a plane, write a play. Direct, if he's one actor is directing, if he's two, of course, it's a big show, right, so the red with your own resources, the red with this furniture of your house, like, with a chair. My first show where like, not these beautiful chairs that you saw at the end. No, they were chairs from all from a classroom that we were rehearsing and years to a classroom with, we still the chairs, we open the show in this dance studio where we rehearse. The audience came in, we feel proud to be showing our show in a dance studio. And that show ended performing for 50 or more times in trouble, I mean, in two, in two days, in the last two days. So do your work, do not wait. They start today. Just look for what you want to say, what, what do you have to say, and I'm sure is, we have a lot to say. Particularly, the directors of color, women, trans, queer, we don't have the same access. Let's create it, let's change, change it. I remember you said, yesterday, when we were having this conversation, you were talking about, I mean, I want to quote you a little bit because it was so brilliant. You said, if you're waiting for someone to find you, you will lose agent energy and freedom. Absolutely. I think that is, is, is a thing, is a fact. And then walking in the community, it's the strongest advice, be connected to people. And also, you said, talk about who are the people that are connected to your sensibility. Right. And remember that, yes, thank you, Mina, for reminding me that actually, they are those points are very important. If you wait, you are losing your momentum. There is something there, there is something now that is there that needs to be exploited and enjoy it. Right. Learn to do it, learn in that there is no wrong or right. I, I was thinking before that, and once I get like more confidence on myself, I was like, there is no right and wrong. I don't, if the people doesn't like, doesn't like my work, they don't like my work, that is fine too. There will be one person that will connect with my sensibility. And that person, that is, that will be the reason of my work for that particular occasion. And that's, Mina, there's something that definitely I will, I will repeat and say like it's an important place to be feeling that you, you have also a, the others that you're not alone, they are hearing you. And in that, by doing that will be, will be growing. So look, look for your community is there is waiting for you. It is there to find it and they will find you too. Great. I mean, I feel like one of the things you're also telling us is to listen to our dreams to listen to the voices in our dreams as well as the inner voice as well as the outer voice. So Dora, this one last little question before I end this, if you want to use about five words to describe your aesthetic. I know, you know, we didn't talk about this, but if you were to use like five words to like really deeply go into your aesthetic. Okay, so internal images that are big, even bigger, that the biggest movement that is to the, that the students, my, the actors can can do. So that is one of the elements. So the internal movement is bigger than the biggest movement of the body. So internal internal images, minimalism in terms of that is simple, but it has layers of complexity is a collaboration is in the center of the of the work, the collaboration. So that's three. That's a good question. That's by looking at what what I show to you this four minutes of video I'm trying to see there. And in some way, I, I try to bring my aesthetics to be part is a participative like a involving and like the whole the whole thing that is in the space audience. Yeah, audience and actors, it should not be in different places. It should be exchanging those what exchanging those images or content, a material that is is happening. It should not happening in one side. I want to open up to to the four wall should be to disappear. I mean, since long time ago. Other thing is that transitions are important for me. I don't, I don't have blackouts since 30 years ago. I don't know. Only the last, the last one should be the lies out. So that's part of my aesthetics as well. There is a never a life off always is sliding. Perfect. That was beautiful. I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. It was really, really, really wonderful to talk to you. So much as a director as a writer as just an artist and really appreciate you being part of not only our circle all the time I can't wait to see you but also just like participating in this and sharing so much of your beautiful knowledge and wisdom with all of us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I just really also want to thank all our tech staff. They're amazing people Tanya from up to action. So, Zen cross who manages everything so beautifully Kayla and a lease or say the who shares all the slides of course Andrea, who is my partner in this. And the punker Booker G who are both my partners in this conversation and also Emily mean and who shares who does promotions who you know gets out the word out for us to so appreciate each and every one of you. Thank you so much for being here. Of course you are audience who are watching this. I hope you enjoyed this and there'll be more coming in fall from our National Institute for directing and ensemble creation. We also want to really thank our funders. Again, just, you know, this, this would not be possible without our partners, national partners who are networks in the, in the whole country as well as the Andrew Mellon foundation the doors do foundation and then our past funders as well. Thank you howl around so much for doing this because this helps us get to people that we wouldn't ordinarily get to and I know we've had an international as well as national viewership for this series. Again, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, and thank you from howl around for really being such an amazing partner in making this happen. Thank you.