 We are going to get started. So thank you everyone for joining us today. And on behalf of Kate Shaddock, Cornfairy and me, Gloria Mirione, we would like to welcome our panelists to today's discussion Impact Investing and ESG, the evolving talent pool and the future of work. So welcome everyone. And what I'll do is a quick introduction starting with, from my left on the screen, Shane Varamalli. So Shane an experienced, I'm sorry, an advisor and investor, scaling businesses really focused on economic, social and environmental themes. Shane Varamalli welcome CEO of Corbin. I'll move on to Annalisa. Annalisa, welcome, an experienced non-profit leader focused on building equitable economies. Annalisa, executive director for newly formed and we launched ownership works. Lisa Ellis, welcome, an organizational people leader and COO and president of an impact investment firm and family office. Lisa Ellis president of New Island Capital Management. And then lastly, Justin Kula, a private equity and impact investor focused on education, financial inclusion, education. Justin Kula, partner Impact Investing and ESG for TZP Group. Welcome. And then of course our very own Kate Shaddock, senior client partner and co-leader Impact Investing. Welcome everyone. I will now hand off to Kate to start the conversation, but welcome everyone. Hi everyone, my SOCAP community. We're really excited to be here, of course. We wish that we were in San Francisco with everyone, but at some time for sure in the future. Well, from our seat at Corn Ferry, we are hearing a lot from leaders how the market place for ESG talent and just talent in general is really evolving. And we are trying to, we're learning about specifics on the ESG talent marketplace from these leaders today. And then we want to really talk about the future of work again, really broadly, and then specifically through your investment lens or through your organization's operations. And so to this group of thought leaders, we want to say thank you and thank you all the SOCAP community for spending time with us. So to focus first on ESG talent and the space for talent within Impact and ESG, I'd like to start with Lisa. Lisa, we're hearing that leaders are adapting to this new normal, post-COVID return to work. How are you seeing the talent marketplace evolving, maybe even from the global economy to your local economy and as your organization grows and develops? Thank you, Kate. Happy to share what we've been seeing in the marketplace. As I was mentioning to the panelists a little bit earlier, we are actually one of the few companies in the San Francisco Bay Area who are actually back in our offices full-time and working from the office. It's important, I think, to create that sense of community that we lost during the pandemic. One of the things that we do believe strongly is that great ideas and generation for creative investing opportunities happens when we can be in the space together and when we can brainstorm across the table from each other. And that certainly became much more difficult during the pandemic. I actually think as a company, we increase the level of communication and contact just because we couldn't bump into each other in the kitchen or walk down the hall. Even while people are working remotely, doing conferences like this one virtually, having some sort of in-person engagement continues to be important. I think that it's important for the talent pool that's out there to understand we've got to use all of our tools. It's not substituting one for the other. Both are equally important. Specifically with respect to impact investing, I think one of the things that is really important at New Island Capital Management and probably at other impact investing firms as well is that you have to have the technical skill. The foundational skills need to be there. And one of the things that's different than when we started 15 years ago is we can actually ask and look for people who have impact experience. It was much more difficult 15 years ago. So being able to speak to investment that you have made that have an impact lens, whether it's touching on inclusive finance, education, health and wellness, these are some of our areas of interest. But I think it's really important to be able to talk about one's investment and technical experience with an impact lens and how the impact was created through the investment. And one of the things that I see with people who are interested in getting into impact investing is thinking that impact investment has to be concessionary and that profit isn't as important as the impact that it makes. For us at New Island, they are of equal importance. We are looking to do good in the world and to make money while we're doing good. And so I think it's important to understand that not all impact investing is concessionary. I think I'll stop there, Kate. I could go on forever, but I know that I want to hear from other people. That's great. And we're going to come back to culture because I think culture in and how you've seen that evolve and how you really match that with talent I would like to keep learning about. But Shane, I hear there's a great quote about carbon and I wonder if you might share a little bit about that and what are you seeing in the talent marketplace with your companies that we can carbon copy? Sure. So thanks for the invite here. But one thing with carbon that this was started with was a level of impatience and angst, I would say. So when I created this, it was really out of frustration of seeing so much capital going into things that actually don't matter. And so I've always had this kind of high level of impatience and always never understood why people say no, it can't be done. So this whole thesis that we have this quote on our website from one of my favorite bands, Rage Against the Machine, it says it has to start somewhere. It has to start sometime. What better place than here? What better time than now? And so the whole thesis about what we go about with is it only takes a single drop to start a waterfall. So we say be that drop. We have everything else in the world we need to solve these massive problems around basic human rights, but also just real opportunities to decentralize utilities or really empower the masses, which is why in our name carbon, the R has flipped backwards because in Cyrillic it means I or we. So we started out with this empowerment directly of the household or the community to that individual level. And so in terms of carbon copy, I mean, I literally believe any company on earth can be an impact enterprise is that it chooses to. So whether you're a fintech company with payments technology, whether you're a digital media marketing agency, there's ways to use that technology for good. So we actually take those things that already work and combine them together and create carbon copies of these businesses, but make something somewhat new by stitching them together. And when it comes down to workforces, you know, in terms of carbon copying, it's really finding what I like to call is kind of almost like that immigrant pride or that, that fire in the belly, that immigrant spirit or you'll finding those people that aren't, you know, born out of abundance, but rather out of necessity because I actually find them to be the most innovative. And so anywhere you travel, whether it's here in our own country in the US or abroad, those that typically don't have a lot to lean on to start with usually have to find very creative ways to make do. And so we're betting on that drive and that spirit, but really finding things that already work and working with that original company, that original solution provider to be that kind of impact arm is what we become for them, but also scaling out that business through these people that are born more out of necessity that are almost obligated to perform and feel pride in ownership from having something that leapfrogs decades of innovation right now that they can actually take action on. And so it's bringing them opportunity essentially is I'd say our number one product that we sell is opportunity for not only existing companies to do something more meaningful with their products or their services, but also opportunities and those that we affect on the ground to bring business because we believe that if you redefine capitalism by equally valing economic sustainability, coupled with environmental and social principles, you can actually create a whole new basis for life and also business going forward. Is there anything that your companies are doing on the people side that you believe really encapsulates that boldness or innovation? Yeah, I mean, you know, if we look at on the education side, what we're looking to do there is actually engage, you know, either out of work teachers or people around their off time to actually become tutors and trading this whole kind of SaaS based platform based off of that. So it's directly empowering those that have the abilities to actually start this business. And if we believe in this concept, we can do it many times over from the grounds up rather than pushing from the top down. That's just one example, but also give you something we're doing directly just within carbon. So I grew up in middle of America in Indiana, and I didn't have any clue about network. I didn't grow up around any industries that I work in today. And so when we look at the face of investment professionals today, a lot of them do not look like the top people on this panel, right? They're usually that kind of that typical Ivy League, white male demographic. And so not only that was like, I decided to actually create a fellowship program where students can actually become our associate base. Rather than hiring one or two individuals or bringing them on early, I've now processed 50 plus individuals and gotten 20 of them their dream job coming out of college because they have this experience that they would nowhere have until in their late 20s. So just by giving them the opportunity to step up and giving them the story to tell, they're getting these skill sets they would never have coming into Wall Street, even early private equity, but they're getting it day one here and their students in high schools that are getting the best colleges because of this working experience. So those are just some examples of how the workforce is being done. And then how do you fractionalize that on the ground and creating opportunities where people can actually own and operate real businesses that have huge economic upside to create generational wealth? Yeah. I mean, Shane, what you're doing is you're creating, first of all, you're diversifying the talent pipeline and you're providing new access to experience. I mean, it's sort of the old classic of you need how many years of job experience to go to a new job and folks say, how can I even get a start? So that's a pretty bold innovation within your own practices, which I do think will be a nice segue into Annalisa's ownership works here in a little bit. But before we do, I want to make sure if Annalisa or Justin, anything that sparks an element of excitement about what's new and different in this, in our new normal? Yeah, sure. I think, you know, Ownership Works is a new organization. So we're starting from scratch and we're building, you know, our team and we're based in New York City and we are looking to build primarily a local team and really be able to benefit from in-person collaboration. But I think what we've learned from the pandemic is how well we can get things done when we're not all in the same room. And so I'm really looking forward to building a culture where, you know, we can get the best out of being together and collaborating in that way, but then also leverage all the new skills and tools that we have to create a culture that allows for flexibility, allows for us to have families and full lives and all of the things that, you know, we've learned that we can make work without having to be in-person all the day, all the time. So I found this term, it's an office-centric hybrid workplace. And I thought that's a cool way of seeing things where we want to be together, but embrace that flexibility and ways of doing things differently. That's great. Thank you. Justin, anything to add? Yeah, I think that there's a lot that's different. You know, for us who have been practicing an impact for a while, it feels slower than we'd like. But I think that there is a massive amount of capital and enthusiasm moving into reimagining how we experience education, the talent marketplace, and then financially inclusive lives. That's why at TZP, our focus has really been on what we call the Arc of Human Opportunity Education, Employment, and Financial Inclusion because they interrelate so deeply and closely to one another. But the pandemic didn't really change things, but it certainly accelerated what was already at play and put it into hyperdrive. Dislocations happened, and I think that the fissures that became obvious because of the pandemic have really put into focus for us in impact investing a lot of market opportunities. And so you're seeing companies really fill gaps in needs for re-educating adults for helping move from credentials to skills for the ability to open up the aperture and really create diverse workforces, but then also putting a focus on inclusion, which is equally as important to diversity, making sure that workplaces are great places for everybody who decide to join those cultures. This is a macro trend, and it's enabled by a variety of forces, enabling technology, consumer sensibilities, established frameworks, groups like this. I don't think it's a moment in time, so I think it will only continue to grow, and it is a global phenomenon. The US is experiencing it in different ways, and particularities across the world will be different, but this is a secular trend that we're experiencing. And so I think for smart organizations, they're going to think about how to reimagine giving themselves advantage by pulling in talent that is different than they would have historically looked at. And for some companies, they will imagine a world that operates differently, and they will outcompete legacy companies who didn't provide broad apertures, didn't really understand the full person, because they were might be focused on credentials or other dimensions that actually didn't inform ability to succeed in a job, and the current market conditions of the reality of 10.9 million job openings, and what is necessary for fixing that supply demand and balance. So I do think that we're living through a pretty big change, although it doesn't feel as happening as quickly as we'd like it to be happening. I think we're in the midst of it. So we are seeing this, the theme that's coming out from each of your comments, I have written down the culture, skills, being really Lisa, what you shared on being unapologetic about not looking for concessionary returns. And that is truly bold, but there is an impatient and innovative organization happening and a Lisa in opportunity works. And so when I think about accelerating the movement of what organizations can do really creatively, I'm not sure there's a better lead in to opportunity works. And so when we talk about the future of work and what employers could do, what best in class employers could do, let's begin with you when we talk about the future of work. What are you seeing as you help companies build and launch equity programs? And maybe it would because opportunity works is a little bit newer, maybe just a minute on opportunity works and then share with us what you're seeing as companies launch these programs. Sure. Thanks, Kate. Yeah, and we're so new, we just changed the name and its ownership works. Ownership works, thank you. No problem. Yeah, so we're a new nonprofit and we're focused on building a more equitable and inclusive and prosperous economy by making every worker and employee and owner at their place of work. So we partner with companies, with investors, with financial institutions to, you know, raise awareness of shared ownership and its benefits to guide companies through the process of becoming employee owned and to really advance it towards the being the new norm in how equity programs are set up. We really see this as being the kind of hallmark of inclusive capitalism. It's really putting workers and labor in the position of having access to capital so they can benefit from the wealth building opportunities that come from being an owner. And as you guys know, it's incredibly difficult to save or build wealth just from wages alone for most workers and access to, you know, buying a home and even education, you come out with debt. I mean, the traditional wealth building pathways have become so distant for so many families. And we know just from looking at the gender and racial wealth gaps that they weren't always available to anyone, to everyone to begin with. So we're really here carving out a new pathway to building wealth through work and have some really incredible partners by our side to do this within some of the, you know, largest companies in the country, both in the private sector on the public sector. So I'll pause there and can answer any more questions. Annalisa, I would just like to add that we love looking at investment opportunities where there is an employee ownership component to it. And those are things that we consider impactful as well. And there aren't enough companies who are taking that under consideration. It's absolutely one of our areas of interest for investing. That's really wonderful to hear. And that's one of our main goals is that when investors are looking at social impact strategies that shared ownership, broad based employee ownership is up there at the top of the list in terms of what a meaningful social impact metric can be for workers and companies. I really think about this last, our COVID time and some people have even shared within ESG that 2020 was the year of the S. And Annalisa, I see what you're doing at ownership works. I'm going to say it now like three times really, you know, in succession at ownership works. That this is a trend that is going just in some of your language is going to revolutionize how organizations and how companies behave. What do you see are and as you get up rolling and started, what are, do you think the common, you know, even misconceptions or barriers and any early successes that you've seen in employee ownership? Yeah, sure. So, and I think there's barriers that have existed for a while, misconceptions that have existed for a while. And in truth, I think it's just been difficult for companies to find a pathway to doing this, right? So like the SEC limits you to, you know, 500 owners. After that, you have to register as a public registrant. So I think companies, you know, with larger workforces have wrestled with just how even if we want to do this, how can we do this? ESOPs are the most common form of employee ownership, but they're not a great fit for every company. So I think the options have been do we do an ESOP or, you know, this just isn't an option for us. And our founder at ownership works, Pete Stavros at KKR has been experimenting and implementing shared ownership within KKR's portfolio for the last 10 years, and has really come figured out the model for how to share ownership broadly with every worker. And at the nonprofit, we are, you know, working companies through literally, how do you do this? How do you structure and size equity grants? And then also pairing broad based equity grants with efforts to build a more engaged work put workforce where people, you know, workers have an opportunity to bring their voice and their ideas to the table. I think what we're seeing, you know, in this kind of year of the s and how, you know, folks have reacted to the changing times is that people want meaning at work and they want to feel seen and they want to feel appreciated for who they are. And I think that pairing broad based equity grants with efforts to, you know, engage workers and then also build a more financially resilient workforce, not just through sharing ownership broadly, but also financial education for workers on what does it mean to be an owner? What is equity? And then also personal financial education so that when you receive a distribution, you know how to make wise choices to kind of invest in your personal financial future and your family's financial future. So it's really, I think, the model hasn't been there. The roadmap hasn't been there. And because of that, you know, I think folks have looked to models that maybe haven't felt like a great fit. And that has led to misconceptions that this just isn't a strategy that can work for large businesses, for global businesses. We've done this with businesses where the global workforce is with public companies, Harley Davidson, we helped with implementing broad based ownership. And so it really is a matter of just figuring out the how, but you know, we can help you do that and then unleashing its benefits for the workers in the company. That's great. Because Justin's organization, Justin, you're doing a lot of research as I understand now about what are the elements of a good job. So could you share a little bit about how that ties in? Again, to the S and even in the in the chat, I saw a question about the G also of ESG investing. Yeah. I'm happy to. So just to take a step back, TZP group is a lower mid-market private equity firm. We've been around for 14 years and managed a little over two billion dollars a capital. I joined it a year and a half ago to launch our impact investing practice and lead ESG. For us, those are distinct practices. ESG is a toolkit that any business can utilize as a way to view risk and a lot of value taking into account the full range of stakeholders that affect the business, management employees, partner suppliers, customers, community environment and investors. An impact is where the world positive value is delivered via product or service aligned to a UNSG standard and with measurable outcomes attached. So pretty simply ESG is how businesses act and impact is what they give to the world. And so we've spent a lot of time trying to be specific and clear about our terminology because oftentimes, as we all know, impact terminology is muddled and differently defined. And so we wanted to be clear about how we defined it. We also wanted to be able to pretty simply have a vocabulary for saying what does sustainability mean in our context? What does a good job mean in our context? And so we built out frameworks so that we could start to develop that vocabulary. From a jobs perspective, we think about it in a couple of dimensions. One is from an ESG perspective, every company that we look at has employees and we try to evaluate how those employees, how we should think about the kind of jobs that those companies the kind of jobs that the companies offer. And so we built what we call the good jobs framework and the good jobs framework has seven different dimensions, pay, benefits, upward mobility, portability, longevity, accessibility, which really relates to diversity, and then health and safety. And putting in that context, you can understand really the difference between a real nurse job and being an Uber driver. And I don't want to pick on Uber, but we can talk about, you know, some of the benefits and strengths of both and why one might be preferential versus another. The second is for some companies, their primary partner service is delivering jobs or facilitating jobs or creating jobs or creating education that will ladder into jobs. And so we want to use that framework to help understand what kind of jobs might this company help inspire or create or facilitate. For TZP Group and our impact fund, we're focused on three specific areas, education, employment, financial inclusion, what we call the arc of human opportunity. And it's a pretty simple idea. People get an education so they can get a good job and they get a good job so they can have a financially secure and stable future. And so the ability to be able to be precise about what represents a good job is really fundamental to being able to answer that question. And it really is aligned to how we define impact, which is measurable outcomes of tax. We want to be able to measure what is defined as a good job so we know if we're actually accomplishing something that we're seeking to. I find this fascinating and I was trying to write down as fast as I could the components of that good job framework. So Justin and actually all of you, I hope to post and Gloria and I will post some items on our LinkedIn after our talk today just to share some of this wisdom because I think it's pretty incredible. So just one follow-up question, Justin. Then we might go to some questions in the chat. Any big surprises for you as you've done this research and as you've done some more work on what is a good job and what innovative companies are doing? Yeah, I mean I'm constantly surprised. The market is pretty complex and so we try to be pretty specific when we look at different job categories. What I will say is that for organizations and this should be until we music to everyone's ears who's attending this conference, if you are able to create a company that in itself either creates education for good jobs or facilitates good jobs themselves, what we're really seeing is massive market premiums for assets. In the investing world, I've always had the experience in my career that valuations feel high. That feels truer today than it's ever ever felt, but it feels particularly true and I think there are super premium values being attributed to companies that are creating high quality jobs, good jobs. And so you see this in mental health education with sky-high prices, you see this in coding boot camps, you see this in sales training programs really across the board. So there really is an awareness that these assets are at a premium and are scarce. And so for aspiring entrepreneurs who are looking to build companies in these spaces, I encourage you to do that. It will be, I think, in your financial interest, but it also serves a real public purpose. Again, we have 10.9 million job openings and we see secular changes at play, just one interesting data point. I'm going to be a little bit wrong on the number, but it'll be sort of directionally true, that one of the biggest employers, especially for people who have had a criminal background, is in the trucking industry. And there are a variety of reasons for that. And what we know is that that industry is going to go through some massive changes over the coming years driven by self-driving cars. And so the question is what to do with workers who would have otherwise chosen that profession, but no longer have that option. And so it takes a little bit of imagination to imagine how to provide opportunities to people who are looking for second chances. But it should be entirely obvious that this is a good thing for our society and it should be everyone's economic interest to do that. There's government funding that's supportive of this, there's market demand for the end learners. And we all want full employment for everybody, especially if you're looking for a second chance, so that we know that one of the at least correlated statistics is if you are unemployed after incarceration, your chances of being re-incarcerated is higher. And so this is sort of a win-win-win-win-win if we can calibrate directly. And so there's a lot of opportunities in the private market sector to create good job-focused companies. Speaking of language. That's really helpful. We have some questions from the chat, so these are going to come rapid fire. And Lisa, I might wonder if you can answer this question from the venerable Kathy Clark, who's asking about the MBAs, the questions that she's getting from some of her MBA students, that they're concerned with the best impact in ESG jobs, go to people who have more experience in the industry, but less experience in actual impact management. Could you speak to that a little bit about what you're seeing for when you're looking for someone for their various aspects of their background? Yeah, thank you for their question. Definitely industry experience is valuable and important, but I think I touched on this a little bit earlier. We really value creativity around impact investing. And so having experience, understanding how to create, design, maintain an impactful investment is very important to us. One of the questions I often get is, how do you measure the impact of your investment? And what I explained to many people is that we do our best to design impact upfront, particularly for direct investments that we make. And I think there was a question about direct versus funded investments. And I know for us, about 60, 65% of our portfolio are direct investments. So we have a lot of control over both creating, designing, and continually building impact into our investments. With the 35% of the investments that are in funds, we look for funds that are aligned in thinking. So if we're investing in forestry and conservation funds, we're going to look for groups of people who think similarly to us in terms of creating that impact and helping on it. So I don't think MBA should be discouraged. I think that understanding how to create and manage impact is just as important as investment. That's great. And next question, Shane, I'm going to ask this to you. We really talked a lot about the S, clearly in the people business, but the G is also really closely related to people. And can you speak a little bit about governance? How you look at good governance for social entrepreneurs, maybe disadvantaged social entrepreneurs and anything that you've seen in your career and a maturation of that G for social entrepreneurs. And Mark asked a question about them in overseas markets or areas where there might be some words not as mature public sector governance. So if you can comment even broadly. Yeah, sure. I think what's interesting, I'd say one word solves this a lot is starting with a framework and having a set of desired outcomes that are measurable, but also achievable, right? And so I think having a plan up front, I like what Lisa said about designing for impact, because I kind of view that's what you have to do. It's something else you have to take into consideration as you're trying to holistically solve problems. So from a governance standpoint, if you don't know what the framework looks like and what you're trying to actually achieve, how can you actually govern and measure it? And how can you actually have standards for that? But I think also then creating either incentive structures that then align with that framework, right? To make sure that people are adhering to that structure. So how do you do that? Is it through a set of equity based incentives? Is it through cash? Is it through also, I think the culture is a big part of this. I mean, we talked about like what makes a good job and nobody talked about the psychological piece of this. 70% of the people are miserable with their jobs and are already looking for the next one, right? But if you consider a good job, just being able to hold your head high and having dignity and being proud of what you do at the end of day, regardless of how you make it, that's something else to take into consideration. And I think there's that cultural piece to this that should be equally weighed along with the compensation component, because that longevity of having something that you actually want to do when you get up is almost irreplaceable. And there's just another gear that people get when they have that type of spirit in them. Otherwise, it just becomes work and it becomes a job. It's not a way of life. And there's a big difference. And I think as part of that governance, if you can kind of create that atmosphere and that opportunity that allows people to speak and have a voice, but have a voice in something they actually care about. A lot of people have the opportunity to speak up, but I've been in those situations where I couldn't care less about what the overall company's mission is because I hated it, right? I wanted to find a way out, but it's great. I got the upside. But making sure you can incentivize, you can measure, and you can help deliver the outcomes and have people have a sense of success in doing so. I think that's a strong tie in to what Lisa started with at the beginning around culture. And we are seeing that one of the biggest challenges for CEOs, presidents, leaders across the board is how has your culture shifted? How has it evolved over the crisis, the racial justice reckoning, whether it was COVID, whether it was the year of the S. And it's been interesting to see, and really thankful to partner with leaders like Lisa, who are purposefully thinking about culture. One of the other questions, and maybe this ties us through before I turn it over to Gloria to close us, because we have another question about trends in terms of ESG and impact jobs. I mean, we have never seen a market like this where our candidates have maybe two or three offers on the table. I think people who have even been investors or been in ESG but manage their own portfolio, like Lisa was saying, like creative around how to make their investment portfolio ESG or impact aligned. What we're seeing is that companies now are, so whether it's a Fortune 500 company or a private company, I think I'm seeing more of having an ahead of either ESG impact and sustainability and to Justin's point, words matter. So they're being very purposeful about which words they use and why, and they have a real thought process grounded in their culture around that. And funds, specific investment funds now used to be, it was ESG or impact or even measurement was a part-time job of sort of the crunchiest or the greenest environmental, environmentalist on the investment team. That is, that is totally unpended. Investors are demanding someone that is responsible for ESG, and I would even say responsible for ESG reporting is a derivative off of that. And I do want to conclude with an overall passion for the market. So I think what we heard in these leaders is a pretty palpable passion for the people that they serve, the people in their companies, the people in their organizations, and that's pretty impressive. It is, to me, I would say before I turn it over to Gloria, I think the X factor in any candidate, whether you're a brand new employee, whether you're returning to work after a hiatus, whether you have had great things in your background or some challenges, I do think that passion is the real X factor. And Gloria would be curious what your thoughts are and wonder if you would take us home. Sure, absolutely. The discussion was fantastic and thank you everyone for sending in your questions via the chat. I mean, it was hard for me to keep myself on mute because there were so many points I wanted to just underscore or accentuate, but really thank you everyone. This was just a fantastic discussion. I will say on top of thanking the panel, I think on behalf of Kate and I, I'd also like to thank the SoCAP community because we really appreciate the fact that they put this all together for us or helped us put this together. And just on behalf of Kate and I, we are actually looking forward to participating with not only the rest of the conference and this topic specifically as it relates to talent, but in a few weeks we will offer a workshop on hiring, which I believe we're scheduling that for November, but that will be specifically on best practices, hiring and talent management in the ESG and impact investing community. So we are really looking forward to that. We'll try to provide an overview of hiring practices, including some tips and techniques that we've picked up along the way that hopefully everyone can implement right away and hopefully use to support the communities that you either provide talent for or the strategies that you support. But anyway, really want to thank Lisa and Anna Lisa and Shane and Justin. It was really such a pleasure. I'm so excited that you're all were able to join today. So again, thank you. And I guess I'll leave us there to be continued. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Bye.