 Podcasters round table, round 99. Are you excited, guys? I'm excited. 99 podcast discovery. Just the title alone is controversial. If you live in our bubble, then you know that podcast discovery is an interesting topic. We're gonna get into it. It's not just, so it's discovery kind of also wrapped around distribution. We've talked about distribution here before, but there's always more to talk about. So that's why we're diving back into it and it has to do with our new round tableer. So let's meet the round tableers. Daniel J. Lewis, co-host, welcome back. Thank you. I love discovering podcasts. So I love being discovered. Or am I? Yeah, are you? That's the question. Are you being discovered, Daniel? Do you have a problem with it? Dave Jackson, welcome back, co-host. Yeah, Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting.com. And I'm really looking forward to talking about this. It should be interesting to see if we can uncover things under different rocks and see what's going on. You got a lot of discoveries behind you. Although, Dave, if you're not watching the video, you should be podcastersroundtable.com slash live every other Thursday at this point, but you should sign up podcastersroundtable.com slash guest so you don't miss them. We're also on YouTube, you can subscribe there. Lots of ways to not miss us, to discover us. But yeah, all of this got started because of a tweet that I sent. And then, what do you know? We have a new roundtabler, David. Welcome to your first roundtable. Hey there, David Cattavi, podcast is lovely work. I didn't know we're gonna do podcast discovery because I'm excited about that because I've been hearing some people say that it's not a thing and I don't agree with that. That's perfect, that is what the roundtable is for. We don't want topics that people don't agree on. This isn't how to, this is the what for and the why's so that's exactly what we do here. So yeah, let me go into, here's what I tweeted. I tweeted out, bummed you're not on Spotify, question mark. I said, don't be. I said, they're a non-player in the podcast space. Fire, I should've put a fire emoji right there. If your show wasn't already popular, they won't change that. So there's a few things going on in this tweet. First of all, it's just fun to call out Spotify from the podcast perspective, all right? They have not done very well on their integration of podcast from my perspective as a podcaster and someone who represents oftentimes the average podcaster, the indie podcaster, whatever you want to call that. So really, I just always like to say something controversial and see what happens, but that's what I think of their integration. I think it sucks and hopefully they'll see it. According to the latest news coverage, they are taking iTunes by storm. They're going to destroy iTunes. We can talk about that too. Number two, from what I hear most of the people that I know who have gotten on Spotify, they're not doing that good. We have a counterpart to that. So that's why David is here. And number three, which was really the core of the tweet, if your content sucks being on Spotify is not going to help, right? Your content has to not suck. So it's that simple. But David, what was your response to this tweet? I mean, I guess I was trying to figure out whether you were saying that being on Spotify wasn't going to help, which is one of the things that you just said. But at least in my experience, I actually just discovered maybe a couple of days ago, maybe early this week, I found my Spotify stats in Libsyn, which by the way, first of all, I'm lucky enough to be on Spotify. And all of a sudden it was like, oh, there's actually 15, 16,000 streams over since it got included six weeks ago or something that I had no idea about now. And I checked in with Libsyn on this, like, are these streams separate from the downloads? They said, yes, in fact, they are. Now, I still don't know where do they're real. Like, how engaged are they? Can I charge advertisers for those streams? I still don't know that. So anyway, I was just saying that I've got a lot of streams in there and in the beginning, yeah, it looked like nothing, but. Now, when you say that many thousand, that's your total from that particular channel, right? That's not per episode. That is the total from Spotify since six weeks ago. I get close to 30,000 downloads a month on my podcast. And so, you know, it's significant. I looked at the numbers for some of those episodes. And it was like, okay, some of these episodes, it's 17% more streams than I have downloads. One of them, in fact, kind of took off and it's got like 33% more streams on top of the downloads that I already have. So this begs the question, does Spotify know how to measure things? Or, you know, how are they measuring things, right? We'd be curious about that. We don't know that here. I mean, yeah, I mean, they obviously don't have their stats great because you have to wait for a while for your stats to show up in Libsyn if you are in Spotify. And the delay is supposed to be 24 hours, but it could be a lot more. And actually, I had talked to Jordan Harbinger from... Awesome. He has a great Google talk. You'll tell you give a talk at Google recently on YouTube. Art of Charm, he was on here before Jordan is the man. From Art of Charm, I had looked around because I had investigated getting on Spotify and I saw, I think it was a Reddit thread on Reddit slash our podcast. And he was saying, yeah, we get 3% of downloads from Spotify. So I commented in the podcast movement group about the Spotify downloads and tagged him and he came in and said, yeah, I mean, it's probably just because your audience, my, I get 4,000 downloads in episode or something like that. I'm not Art of Charm level of downloads and he nowhere even near. So for it to be thousands and thousands of episodes could be 3% of their downloads. So he was saying it was still not significant for them. Right, right. I commented that it's likely you got featured. I mean, finding podcast in Spotify. Dave, have you tried to do this recently? Like good luck with that. Yeah, the only way you can find my show in Spotify, and I'm like, Dave, I'm lucky enough to be in there. They only take about 10% of the people that asked to be in there. You have to search for my podcast name. When it first came out, you could go and if I click on all podcasts, yeah, you can see there's artwork and I scrolled for days and could not find my podcast. No keyword. Keywords aren't working for you at all. Nothing. Podcasting, how to podcast. No, you have to type in school of podcasting and then it will show up. David, you can give that a shot too. I don't know if you've searched in an app there but- Well, I'm doing, I mean I've looked at my own. If I go in to my app, I look at podcasts and then I go to the lifestyle category. Several screens down here I'm seeing Tim Ferriss, Gary V, entrepreneur leadership, Tony Robbins, I'm scrolling more and more and more. And you're in a hard category. Happy with Gresham Rubin. It's way down there. And I think I'm above James Altucher though at least. I'm right above Reed Hoffman, Masters of Scale. But from a search perspective, can you search your name or a keyword and find yourself? Is that anything? Yeah, so if I search for Jason Freed and I scroll down to podcasts and videos, then my podcast Love Your Work is showing up as the second podcast there for Jason Freed. So starting to show up. Daniel, what do you think of my tweet that I'm basically saying Spotify's not doing this very well so far? And yeah, I mean- There are so many factors that could be going on and things that we might just not know yet. And that's why I'm really hesitant to- Oh, come on, be bold. It's not a matter of believing David. I mean, I believe what David said. And David and I both have to try and believe things- David doesn't even believe himself. What I like about David in some of the articles he linked to is that he questions his own stuff, right? He doesn't say, ooh, I have these. He's worried, can I give these numbers out? Are they actually accurate? Well, let me liken this to something that happened to me a few years ago. Stitcher, back before it was owned by mid-roll scripts, I think maybe even before it was owned by Deezer. Back when we actually knew Rachel at Stitcher, they featured several episodes of the Audacity to Podcast week after week on their front page. Now, what they did was they featured a snippet. I forget how long of a snippet. Maybe it was like a five minute snippet or four minute something like that. But the way that Stitcher is designed now is that, or back then at least, because they would still re-host your media, which they don't do anymore back then they did, they would ping the server where that media is originally hosted to say, this was downloaded through Stitcher, so count this as a download in your system. So it was that kind of cross communication sort of thing through an API. And when I was featured on the front page of Stitcher for a few weeks at a time, my downloads for those episodes skyrocketed. It went from at that time, maybe 2,000 downloads per episode to I was getting 75,000 downloads per episode. But those were people listening to only five minutes. I knew they were listening to only five minutes. Yeah, because that's all that Stitcher was giving them is a little five minute excerpt of my show. And then they could click through to listen to the entire episode. I didn't really track how many people actually did that. But the thing is that even after that huge spike, afterward when Stitcher stopped featuring me, then it dropped right back down to normal levels, I think barely even a actual increase. I would say, yeah, certainly there's some increase. Like, I mean, right, that's about being featured. Even it's on iTunes, right? We don't, we see bumps, but I mean, as long as we pull, I mean, adding 10 subscribers would be great. But see, in that case, and potentially in the case of Spotify, we don't really know how much or how the content is being consumed on that platform. Because of the way Spotify works, they could be re-hosting the file. I think maybe they are re-hosting the file from Libsyn. Dave is nodding his head, yes. And so they're having to send data back to Libsyn or whoever you're publishing to Spotify through because you can do that through Blueberry as well. They're sending that data back. So then Libsyn just has to accept that. Libsyn can't apply all of their normal filters, probably on those numbers where they see, okay, they requested this range of bytes. So we know they downloaded the majority of the file or it wasn't an autoplay. We know the user agent, all of that stuff. But now we're talking about something. I mean, like, so there's a, we gotta watch out, we don't go too deep into like analytics, right? Or how podcast stats are measured because that's a can of worms. Yeah, well, so the point, simple point there is almost anything could be happening on Spotify and we can't really know it. It could be bots and we don't know. Right, but what, so what about what I'm saying is I'm telling people if they're not on Spotify, because here's what I see a lot is people are, like David, they're going, searching, how do we get on Spotify? They're desperate to get on Spotify. Now we've got this media attention that's saying Spotify is gonna take on Apple, you better be on Spotify and people are freaking out because they can't get on Spotify. As Dave mentioned, very few people right now, because Spotify, you suck when it comes to podcasting, they don't take almost anybody. And that might be actually good for them. It's not good for the community. But, so I'm telling people don't freak out, right? You don't have to worry about it because they're not including everyone right now. Maybe they will, but distribution to different points, Stitcher, Spotify, iTunes, I feel like Apple podcast, AKA iTunes, is really the only place, if you're not there, you are going to miss out on pretty much most of your audience for the most part. So what do you think about, you know, I mean, you guys see this, Dave, you see this too, especially being at Libsyn, Dave, you must see people wanna be on Spotify constantly and thinking it's going to make the difference. Yeah, a lot of people do that. And what happens at Libsyn is you basically contact Rob Walsh, who's our vice president of podcast relations, and he submits a list over to Spotify. And the thing that's really not great is they only notify you if you get in. They don't give you a sorry, you know, but you're not gonna make, they just, the only way, if you get notified, it's a good thing. And so you just kind of send it to Rob and for 90% of people it goes into the abyss and you just kind of wonder what happened, which is kind of sad. And can I tell the story about how I ended up in Spotify? I think it's kind of interesting. So my podcast, Love Your Work, was featured on the front page of iTunes late May, early June. The front page or the front page of your category? The front page, like with a banner and everything, which is something we can talk about too, because I'm actually working on a monster post for that that I hope to release by next week. So you're saying this was something more than new and noteworthy? Yes. This was- You had to give them the graphic. You, they actually requested graphics from you. I was between a picture of Mark Zuckerberg and RuPaul. Nice, nice. Nice. So featured, featured, featured. No, I'm, so they requested artwork for that, right? Because that's not, they don't, when they do that- That's a whole other story too. So they kind of did. Oh, okay. I can go into more detail on that. We'll keep going with that story. But at least for Spotify, so it was featured. And so I had already asked Rob to submit via Spotify several months before, didn't hear anything. But then this time on iTunes, one of my listeners was saying, hey, how come you're not on Spotify? I'm like, hey, sorry, I submitted. Apparently I didn't get accepted. And then he's like complaining. He's like, how can a, how can a top 10 podcast? I don't know how he decided I was a top 10 podcast. How could a top 10 podcast podcast not get into Spotify and at replied Spotify? And Rob was at replied in there somewhere just cause I had mentioned that I had asked him. And then so Rob revisited it and sent it to Spotify. Spotify said yes. And there was a little bit of, by the way, follow up about my music because I have bought music from record labels as rights. And so Spotify wanted to know for sure that I had secured those rights. Because I think that they have that type of relationship with all these record labels where they got to be really careful to make sure that any of the, I don't know why Apple would be any different but where they got to be really careful that Spotify's checking is license. Spotify's checking Apple's not right now. I mean, for the most part. I mean, they'll check upon approval. Apple has always been, as far as I know, they put human ears on it, but Spotify because they are a music's, well, Apple is too. Yeah, I feel like Spotify must be checking. Again, this goes to the limited number of podcasts that are allowing on. They can do that. Yeah, and it's a strategy that might work. I mean, they could eat some of Apple's lunch on this. Yeah, I mean, you can't take over. If I go to the Apple Podcast app and I want podcasts and I can't find half of what I search for, you're not gonna eat Apple's lunch. But most people, what are they listening to? Most people they're listening to. Can I cuss on this podcast? Yeah, sure. Okay. Actually, let's not, let's not, just because it's a good question, but let's not so that if... Sorry, it's just what I feel in my heart. You gotta come up with a different word. About the same crap that everybody wants to listen to, which I don't know, maybe that's a strong word to say about. No, it's a problem. NPR and Gimlet, they make good podcasts. I'm not interested in those podcasts. The only good thing is these are nice entry level, but what we're seeing, and this probably goes to your discovery thing, is that people aren't then going out and getting other podcasts, right? They'll enter, you know, this is the thing about Serial. Serial did, you know what Serial did for really amazingly well? For Serial, not necessarily for podcasting, right? They got a lot of people in. It doesn't mean a lot of people went from Serial to another podcast. Although it did make the world start hearing about podcasts. Yes, it's always good. Because the people who were listening had enough influence that they started covering it in media, making fun of it in Saturday Night Live and all of that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's just that the credit they get for exploding the space is not accurate. Has had a role. One of the things about this that I'm wondering with these different features and stuff and where you might succeed in different directories and such, one of the things I'm still kind of thinking about with David's podcast is from its theme, its concept, love your work. Maybe it's the word love and it's in a music based catalog. So maybe it's somehow showing up in like love song listings or something like that. Oh, that's interesting. But I mean, if you had a music review podcast and if Spotify would allow that kind of thing on their system, I could see that doing much better on Spotify because if you, for example, searched for Taylor Swift, maybe your podcast would show up at the bottom of a long list of Taylor Swift music and covers and everything else that's the actually music. But your podcast would be listed in there. I mean, that's how our friend Cliff Ravenscraft got so popular with his Lost podcast is that he launched that right around the same time that iTunes started including TV shows. So people were getting into iTunes looking for Lost TV show episodes. And that makes a lot more sense because if I'm watching Lost, I'm more apt to go listen to a podcast. If I'm listening to music, I don't want a damn podcast. I'm not gonna sit here and listen to an hour of talk. I don't want to press shuffle and hit the next song. I think it's a tougher barrier for them. Apple has the same thing. But at least in Apple, like you said, you could be searching for TV shows and other things where people want to take deep dive fans into a podcast for sure. I just searched, I was just gonna say, I just searched for Love on Spotify. It wasn't in the top four, but I'm somewhere in the top, I don't know, 20. Nice. I'm gonna do that. Yeah, you never know. It's a big stretch to go from the word love to love your work podcast, but hey, at least you're there, at least you're there. Well, I'd like to announce that the school podcasting will now be known as the School of Love. No, see, there you go. Dude, School of Love, I mean, you would, that would be a huge podcast. It's not far from Art of Charm, at least how they started, bro. Like School of Love would be huge, Dave. And we know you, by the end of this round, you'll have the domain and the podcast will be started probably on Anchor. Oh my goodness. You can start on Anchor right now, Dave. Exactly. Well, I did a little math behind the scenes and I looked at my numbers in Spotify and I'm in the same boat, somewhere between two and 3%, which is basically just a little less than what I'm getting in Stitcher. And here's the thing, like that, so I think all of us agree, it's key to be everywhere you can be. I mean, Daniel's got a whole site from my podcast reviews, that's not it though, but podcastplaces.com, go there and you'll find out there like over 100 places that you can list your podcasts. And we're not saying don't do that. I'm kind of saying don't freak out if you can't get into one. It's not going to make the difference, but if you're there, I mean, I'd still encourage you to try to get on there. iHeartRadioSpotify, whatever it is, because yes, if you pick up one, two, or 20 more subs on that channel, that's great, you want that. So that's not the question here, but when we go to, when we're talking about podcast discovery, David, well, I guess I want to know what that means to everybody, because I guess I have a different idea. When I say podcast discovery, what does that mean for you, David? Oh, well, I think that, all right, obviously as podcasters, we think podcast discovery is a problem because we have trouble finding new listeners. Then the question is, there's a couple of questions. One question is, are listeners having trouble finding podcasts? Right, we're also listeners. Do you have trouble finding podcasts? I do, but I think that we're super listeners. Now, I have some evidence about why I think the listeners in general are looking for podcasts. Now, then there's the other thing is like, will podcast discovery companies survive? Now, if you hear, you listen to the feed and LC is really just podcast discovery is BS, it's not a thing. I'm not sure exactly what she means by that. If she means that companies survive. Rob will tell you, and I invited him last minute, so I wish he was here. He would say the only people have problems. But I think LC is usually the more of the voice of reason in terms of she's a little bit more open where Rob will tell you exactly where he stands. And I think Rob's idea is that the only people have problem with a discovery are people who are not getting listens or something. I don't know, what's the line, Dave? You're like right-hand man, do you know? Rob's stance on that? Yeah, the only people that think there's a discovery problem are the people that haven't been discovered, I think is how he says it. Something like that, yeah. Yeah, I don't agree with that statement. And right, and it leads to great conversations. So- LC Escobar and Jessica Kufferman just had a great conversation about this. Actually, I think it was more like Jessica was going on a rant about this maybe. In she podcast, the latest episode, which at this time, episode number 155, podcast discoverability, and she likened it to a grocery store with all of these different ingredients or all of these different products, versions of the same product, basically, like ketchup. Okay, you go on a grocery store and there are 20 different brands of ketchup. That, the ketchup is there. You know, I'm gonna butcher her thing. So just go and listen to episode 155. If you're not looking for ketchup, like, I mean, but they, well, groceries are used to wearing grocery stores. They'll get it in front of your face. But so, and that's the key here, like, what are, so you, David, you said if we'll podcast discovery, like companies or start up, will they survive? And I think if you start off with you build something for podcast discovery, you're going to fail because, and I want you to tell your product ton story. Yeah, and I think this goes to product ton. And I think it seems like they were doing it right and they shut it down. But anyways, let you finish your idea about discovery. Oh, mine? Yeah, okay. Yeah, well, I guess I was just gonna say, I don't think that the companies will necessarily survive or it will be very difficult for them to. I think that I think there's sort of a, you can be a pickax salesperson during the gold rush in some ways, the way that overcast advertising works. So I'm sure there's something we'll talk about, but that's an app and it has other ways of getting revenue. But I've seen so many times on Twitter and Facebook, and maybe this doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem, but on Twitter and Facebook people were saying, hey, do you have any podcasts to recommend? I'm seeing that from regular people who are not podcasters who are looking for podcasts to listen to. It's enough of a problem that they're asking, but then it's word of mouth and you could argue that that's the way podcasts spread. But is there a problem with people being able to discover podcasts? Another piece of data I have is that when Product Hunt, which is big in my audience, when they had a podcast section and they shut that section down, I immediately lost like 33% of downloads. And I had asked them like, hey, are you pinging these MP3 files? Just when somebody loads the page or just trying to figure out it was this data reel and they were saying that they weren't pinging the MP3 files. So at the very least people were listening to, if that's true, at the very least people were listening to a couple of seconds of these podcasts. But it really, I mean, I had, they had been a key part of my strategy from the very beginning of my podcast. So I have no way of knowing, what downloads were real in the beginning. But anyway, it indicates to me that there were people using this discovery engine to find podcasts. And a lot of people have said, hey, if you've, you know, they might at me on Twitter. Hey, did you ever find like a better way of discovering podcasts? Yeah. For me, the funny part is the original way. iTunes, Apple is the original best at podcast discovery. When I found podcasts, you used to have to go to the desktop software before the app, right? And when you clicked on one, there was a whole lineup under there. And it said, you might, people who are listening, this was great. People who are listening to your show, to the show you just subscribed to are also listening to Dave at School of Podcasting, the Audacity to Podcast, the work you love. I mean, anything, the algorithm was fantastic at knowing what other people are listening to. It's just a numbers game. And I would just, I'd be like, yep, yep, yep. And I would just have like 90 podcasts in my podcatcher. Now, did I listen to all? No, but I certainly found like all the podcasts. It worked amazing. So literally, hey, Apple, all you have to do is work this into the podcast app, which is where we know the majority of podcasts get listened to anyways. If they just had some, I know the space is limited, but if it just showed you people are listening to this or also listening to this, this wouldn't be an issue. It wouldn't even be a conversation. And are you familiar with the Breaker podcast app? No, no. Okay, so that's another one. It's, you know, it's still early adopters, still people who were on Product Hunt kind of, I think went from Product Hunt to Breaker and actually when I spoke to Product Hunt's CEO and founder, Ryan Hoover, he recommended Breaker to me and it is a social podcast listening app. You can see what every podcast that people you are following are listening to. You can comment on podcasts. You can see who is subscribed to your podcast and follow them, engage in comments with them and everything. And so it has promise. Yeah, I put it on Apple because look, every podcast app, even the most dominant overcast stitcher, the percentage of the market they have compared to is just ridiculous. Like Apple would turn the tide. I mean, Apple has to do something if this is something that everyone agrees the problem. But I mean, they already did it. If they could work in their app, it'd be so excited. But hey, podcast discovery, or do we have a question from Addie that she talks about overcast too? That was something I was just in the chat. Okay, podcast discovery, Daniel, what does it mean to you? I found, well, I want to refer back to this before I answer that question. Elsie and Jess talked about this article that Mark Ramsey wrote on his website, markramseymedia.com, I think. And a title of the article is, the problem with podcasting is not discovery from July 31st, 2017. I'll read an excerpt from this in a moment after my browser refreshes. There we go. Discovery is not a problem because most consumers don't want to discover anything. Discovery is work, it's a chore. Digging for treasure is only fun when you know there's actual treasure under your shovel. Think about how you feel when you walk into a supermarket looking for some potato chips, only to discover that there is a mile-long pop-up in front of my face, that there is a mile-long aisle stocked with hundreds of varieties. Hey, no discovery problem here. There's plenty to discover. But who wants to take all the time and effort? It's just potato chips. Likewise, it's just a podcast. My time is much more precious. Indeed, the supermarket problem is called choice paralysis. And one of the most common results of being presented with too many options is that the consumer likes to choose none of the above. Great article. And is that why Netflix, the Netflix rating system for the tens of thousands of movies that are available is just crap and nobody likes it? I would also disagree because someone killing it is YouTube. My goodness, no one puts content choices in front of you more and just keep going. Yeah, yeah, I want to see it. YouTube has figured out discovery in a crazy way because they know everything about you. Yeah, but see, YouTube and podcasts are so radically different from what discovery means to them. I mean, on YouTube- No, podcasts are the problem because you don't sample podcasts easily. Right, exactly. On YouTube, it's very easy to jump from one video to another. You watch a video on one thing and you see other videos recommended on that same thing. Maybe we need better artwork. Thumbnails do it. I'm telling you, thumbnails and titles do it. Except they're so tiny. There's something about the YouTube comparison that I think is interesting and worth exploring and that is the incentives, right? Why does YouTube do such a great job of recommending new videos to you? It's because they have an ad platform and they are incentivized to keep you on YouTube. And I was thinking about this today as I was writing my article about Apple Featuring Podcast. My guess is that Apple features podcasts because the podcast will get people to listen to more podcasts. But wait, why does Apple want people to listen to more podcasts? Where are the incentives for them to get people to listen to more podcasts? Because podcasters are obsessed with ratings and so they will beg you to go to, please go to iTunes and leave me a rating and review. And Apple is praying that while you're there, you'll buy a movie or a book or something else. That's the only thing I can think of. But I mean, why do podcasters, before they monetize what's their incentive to keep, get more listeners? I mean, you're building something, whether you're building towards something, it never hurts to get more eyeballs for longer on your platform, whether it's they're playing a long game that they don't have a reason for now or they just want people digging around in their app or iTunes, something could be coming, but it never hurts to grab more attention on your product to dominate one side. I also think Apple's, part of Apple's brand is think different, right? And we're the people that are gonna throw hammers at the 1984 TV and we're busting out and there's nothing that's more busting out than podcasting. And Apple is about enabling creators. I mean, you look at garage band, photos, pages, they include this all for free now on any Apple device that you buy. Why would they do that and give you something free? It's because it's part of a better ecosystem and it enables creators. So you're hardware, yeah, it's hardware. Yeah, and so with, they see podcasts and go back to when Steve Jobs back in 2005 originally announced that podcasts would be coming to Apple iTunes. It was about the creativity that here are independent creators making great works. You look at different industries, well, movie industries and independent creators don't really succeed in movies because it takes a lot of work to make a really good movie but it doesn't take a lot of work to make a good podcast. So I think that's why Apple is so eager to feature podcasts and invest time and personnel and expenses into supporting this industry. Apple just wants to be number one. Who doesn't, right? I don't wanna podcast since it's inception and they're gonna keep dominating if they even try a little bit. But I am, it does segue interesting into overcast because overcast is becoming more and more popular. I think it's almost probably the second top app at this point, maybe. The latest I heard on the feed was that overcast was 1.5% of all downloads. Now for me, it's 25 or 30. And so, but I mean as a podcast directory as its place behind like the Apple podcast it's gaining against other ones. Anyways, the percentage is really low but it's getting better and better. But the thing is, Mark used to be a premium app, that didn't work, he opened it up for free and now he's introduced this ad model which I'm seeing and you wrote an article about this, David and I'm seeing this on my own work as well. We have a podcast, basically you can put ads onto overcast, so you're in an app where people are already listening to podcasts, right? They're in a place ready to subscribe, even more so than if they're just listening to your podcast and you say subscribe. So, they're ready but you can put an ad into the categories. This is just like the iTunes anchor it said people listening to this also listen to this. That's when they show your ad to those people and the return for the money that it's right now versus the subscribers people are picking up. What I've seen has been amazing numbers. It's working really well right now. It's also early days, once you see it all the time maybe not. But, now that app has incentive, right? To get you to show you more podcasts that you would like because they're getting their ad revenue from that. So, you're seeing this work for you, right, David? Yeah, I bought an ad on overcast a couple of times and I reported the results in a blog post on Caterby.net. I think if you search for overcast advertising you will probably find it. And actually since that blog post, I think in that blog post I was paying roughly 76 cents a subscriber. I was advertising the arts category which is not, yeah, right. And if you break down their numbers of what their estimate for what you pay most podcasters are paying $1.99 I think per subscriber. So, I was getting like 76 cents and then I bought another one in the business category and I was paying like 56 cents or something like that per subscriber. So, a couple of things there. It was nice because it indicated to me that perhaps I had decent enough that had above average content if I was getting this new subscribers for so cheap. I have a question on overcast because I don't use it. I have used it. But can someone, I use podcast. You can't sample a podcast or you have to subscribe to hear it. So, on overcast can I sample your show before I press subscribe? Yes. That's the question. That's key, right? Because on podcast if you're, you know, those numbers it wouldn't be shocking at all. But you, people are probably sampling from the ad. Hopefully, the ad doesn't make you subscribe somehow. Hopefully clicking the ad. It tells you how many clicks there are and then how many subscribes. That's good. They're often those clicks. And I think that the subscription rate after click is somewhere around 2% or 1%. You know, it wasn't a lot. I mean, I can actually pull up the numbers when I get a chance here. When you advertise on overcast, overcast.fm slash ads, by the way, how long is your ad in there? One month, though, I don't think they have it. I don't think he has it totally down yet to a science. Things have been changing a lot. He's been experimenting with it because I feel like I had one of my ads must have been up there for like 40 some days. Okay, so I've got my numbers up. When I was in the business category that's the better category for my podcast. Well, hold on. That's interesting too, because why did you pick the not better category the first time? Because the ads were selling out. They ad sell out incredibly quickly. And so only Arch was available. And then the next time I bought, I don't know if Marco had seen my article or what happened. But the next time I bought, I bought under technology because some people in technology recognize my name from a book I wrote, Design for Hackers. And so I figured I'd try that because business wasn't available. And then Marco emailed me and said, well, how about business category? Now business category was sold out at that time, but he went ahead and made the change because he felt like it would be more relevant. So got little, I don't know if it's special treatment or if I just got lucky on that one. Well, he wants you to succeed. I mean, he has motivation for you to succeed. Sure, yeah, exactly. And he's just experimenting. So in that, I had roughly 100,000 views and 4,000 taps, which was 4% of all the views were taps. That's a pretty high click-through rate actually. And then 11%, 11.7% subs. So it was 472 subscribers. I'm trying to remember, I think I might have paid $299 for that. It was $299 or $399 that I paid. They must have been $299. $299, what are you saying? $299, yeah. Yeah, okay. It's now $400. $400 for what? For a month ad in the business category. How much would you pay for? How much would you not mind paying for a subscriber? Me, I mean, at this stage, I'm not doing that stuff right now. I've decided to stop throwing money in the Money Pit. Is the podcast the Money Pit? Yeah, is that a topic for a show? They're all topics, man. Yeah, so I mean, it's in my mind, I was thinking like, oh, a dollar would be great. I mean, try advertising on Facebook sometime and try to get yourself a subscriber for a dollar. Good luck. Yeah, when I did the same thing. I was in the business category. I had 64,000 views, 3,940 taps, which was 6%, and then 4.3% subscribed, which was 168. So I was paying a little over a dollar basically. I really think this is the future of many podcasting apps as Ray destroys his studio for us. But because you consider, well, Apple has already started offering ads for app developers. So you search for something and there's a sponsored ad inside of the app store for whatever app that they're advertising. That's great. But see in the app store, people go there to get an app and then they leave when they have the app. Whereas advertising and overcast, or I really think Apple will probably open up similar kinds of ads inside of the podcast app. But would it be in the catalog or would it be in your actual app? I don't know. See, now you're in the consumption area and the ads are in that same consumption area. So that's a much better potential for being discovered or for getting in front of the right audience. But it still goes back to, is what you have worth someone else's time? Are they interested? Is it good? Well, I think it was you Daniel that said you put your shovel over the gold. And the one thing I started a podcast is a test called the podcast rodeo show. And the idea is I start to listen to your show and see if I can last eight seconds. And then I'm amazed. I can know the premise. I saw that, but I know the eight seconds is great. Well, it's not actually, I give you my first impression. And I had one the other day, it was a bunch of comedians that started off and they took forever to introduce people because it was, you know, jammin' Johnny gonna do the thing. What's up Johnny? And the guy's like, what's up? And then they went into like their new T-shirts that were out and this one's got again, Jimmy and Stevie and I'm like, I don't know who you guys are. Can you tell me what your show's about? Because your name was really horrible. So I think there's a lot of shows out there that could use just a little tweaking. I mean, think about it. When you watch the tonight show, the first thing they do, welcome to the night show featuring Jimmy Fallon. Tonight show is gonna have Arnold Schwarzenegger. But that only matters for podcasts. The podcast you're describing to me sounds like a group of guys that don't give a heck who listens. I don't care about growing my show. We're here to be buddies and we record if someone wants to listen awesome. So what are the goals of your show, right? Like it is growing so important to you. For those shows, probably tweaking. For these other shows, yeah, it's probably just their buddies listening. And that's where you almost kind of want to go. Can we have two categories? You know, people that, you know, care about their show and people that are just like just the fun guys or fun gals, whoever the fun people shows or whatever. Because I mean, what do we did when we started this show? You start off every show. Podcast was on table 99. Today we're talking about podcast discovery. And then we go at least that way in the first 20 seconds, you have a clue what we're gonna talk about because if you make me wait 10 minutes to figure out what you're talking about so I can go, oh, I don't wanna listen to this. It makes me then nervous. It's like what David was talking about. People only have so much time. So if the first two times I went, you know, with my pale looking for gold, and I wasted 20 minutes and came up with nothing, I'm not gonna go looking for more podcasts. Well, now, there's something here I think if we look at Apple has, is going to introduce stats, right? And I agree. I agree with what Daniel says about Apple will probably start running at some data some of the way, the same way overcasts is now is Apple making stats for podcasters? And to some extent they probably are. It's gonna help us make better podcasts but they're gonna have a lot more data about the engagement of the second. They already have it though. They already had it. So did they have it in it? Sure, yes, heck yeah. They've always known this. That's what, before they announced that, literally the night before I said that and then the next day they announced it. Like I was hoping, when are you gonna release this? Right? Yeah, it's their platform. They know that. How far in advance they were tracking it, whatever, but they knew it. But your first point about making better podcast, podcasters making better podcasts, that's exactly what YouTube is amazing at this. They call you on the phone. They schedule appointments with you. You have your own. I have my own contact at YouTube. YouTube wants to do everything to help you make. I was just looking at my engagement on my YouTube videos today. You can see, oh, it's above average engagement right here and you can look exactly in your video. That's exactly, it's all about hammering away at making your show like a machine. So they brought that with podcasts and then you have that intelligence and iTunes is just, Apple podcast is so unsophisticated when it comes to searching, when it comes to delivering podcasts. And there's so much data that they could be incorporating. Imagine if Google was building a podcast engine like that. There's so much data they could be incorporating to make people find podcasts that they were more engaged with. And if they are selling the ads, they're gonna be incentivized to do so, more so than just supporting artists or whatever. I give Spotify a hard time. But Google has been terrible. Also dropped the ball big time. We can talk about that in a different time. But you know, this might be that perfect blend of what I'm saying, bring back the old way you did it except the only, except the way you partially, the way it would be nice was a mix. You can get ads to bump up in that other people are listening to, right? So use the ads. I would pay for those. Yeah, it would be amazing. And then Apple would be incentivized and they'd bring in revenue from that channel. They'd sell a lot of pickaxes. Yeah. Yeah. And if you think about it, Facebook has the sponsored posts, Twitter has sponsored posts, Google obviously and YouTube. I'm not quite sure why they haven't jumped into where when I do a search in my podcast app, why it's like, here's the five results. Oh, by the way, this one's sponsored. That would just fit it in. The reason there is because these other platforms that you just mentioned, see the user as the product. Whereas Apple looks at the user as the user and they make the product. They use the product. The customer. Yeah, we're the customer. And to Google, the customer is the advertiser, not us. So Apple's perspective is radically different. It does kind of surprise me that they offered advertising for apps inside the app store. But then again, if someone visits a paid app through an ad and buys that app, Apple still gets 30%. So they still have the big chance to make money opening that up. They don't have that chance with podcasts unless it's just the pure potential to make money from the podcaster who wants to pay to advertise. You know, it'd be nice even on, even like the way show notes, like if you have to swipe or press, however you get to show notes, you swipe to the side while you're listening. And I know a lot of people, while they're listening, they're doing something else, but you have that opportunity that you could swipe and then give me the other people listen to these and just, so I could scroll it like an Instagram feed, man. I know I can't sample it that way, but you could sub or save for later. That's what YouTube app does. YouTube app is amazing as well for consumption. And you could fit in just the way Instagram is doing, which Instagram is doing a very good job at their ads. You could fit in sponsored, sponsored posts. Well, they could very likely do that because that they're now including this tracking data, which I think that Apple has not tracked actual consumption of an episode up until iOS 11 comes out. But let's assume that that's the case with this new data that they'll be getting, then they can start to eventually implement certain things like that to say, people also listen to this and then it's not based purely on subscriptions. It's based on actually how many people are listening to these other episodes. Well, I mean, I'm saying the way they originally did it was really good. It always put content I was interested in in front of me. I mean, it did a good job at connecting like content. It's probably how I found you and Dave almost certainly. And I would listen to it. And if I liked it, I would keep listening. If I didn't, I would just say, all right, you're done. Yeah, the key is that you were in a place to sample, you had that offer. You were there ready to listen to podcasts because you were looking for podcasts. And I heard from some people with overcasts when I was on Twitter talking about the ads I was running and they were saying, and at least one person said, I just click on all the overcast ads because I wanna see what podcasts are advertising because they're gonna be a high quality podcast. So I mean, I see it again as, yeah, there is a problem discovering podcasts. Is it a viable business itself discovering podcasts? It's a supplementary business for overcast and probably for Apple soon too. Well, you know, here, so I am interested in product hunt was doing well, at least for yours. Why? And I know that I think you wrote in your article about they said that it's not their business, but they are doing this something else. But could they not figure out how to parlay that into, I mean, you were getting attention, long form attention. Like it feels like a mistake, but it could have been a cost on their part that was done for it. Yeah, I guess it just wasn't a priority and they got bought by Angel List. I wonder if that has something to do with it. So it became a part of Angel List is about giving early stage companies funding and then product hunt is about getting those products promoted. And so where do podcasts fit in that picture? Not anywhere in particular. Now, like I say though, there's Breaker, which product hunt has been supporting and it's a promising app in that community. People are using it. I'm not using it much. I probably should because I wasn't using it so much before because the reason I use overcast is because it has such great fast playback, which I don't- It's a crime. Always use- Fast playback is a crime. I use it for, well, here's the thing. I kind of agree with you, but because I do- Interviews, because I do interviews, I listen to fast because maybe I've got to hear, I've got to listen to like 10 Seth Godin interviews before I interview him to make sure that I can mind- That's a good use case, but as a normal subscriber. Killing the art, man. You're killing the art. When they came out with 3X, I was like dancing in the streets. I want to hurt you. I want to hurt you, man. Well, Chris Bestie in the chat room says, Echo Podcast is a community sharing app for podcasts. I've never heard of that. And these are great, but they pick up such a fraction of a small percent. I'm not saying don't try, it's just you're reaching almost just, it's just, Apple just step up, man. Like, help us out here. But something interesting, David, with the product hunt thing that I was thinking about, are you, because this goes to saying, and you said it was part of your strategy to be on that platform, so you were sort of platform reliant. If YouTube cuts the plug on me tomorrow, I lose a huge channel, and that's not good. With podcasts, typically you own the channel. Your other places, if Apple cuts you off, that's gonna suck too. But were you doing anything in your podcast to move people who are finding you on product hunt over to somewhere else? Because you lost such a big percentage, but you could have picked them back up if you were communicating with them via email list or something else. There were times where in the intros, I'd say, hey, I noticed a lot of you were listening on product hunt. Go ahead and subscribe on Apple Podcasts. I didn't really know about overcasts so much at the time, so I probably should have done that. Moving people from where they listen to another place is tricky. I think if you get them on email list is key, because at least you're talking to them on a different platform. I need to work on the email list. I've got a big email list for a different part of my platform, and I just haven't really started it so much for this podcast specifically. So there's something I need to work on. And yeah, getting them off of product hunt, that was the only really choice was to give them some sort of action. So asking them to subscribe was, but I feel like, I've realized that it's hard, but if I hear a podcast I really like, I'm gonna find out how to subscribe. Yeah, that's true. Well, I mean, I guess you couldn't subscribe. You were, they were just, I don't know how product hunt worked for podcasts, but they were just listening. No one was really subscribed. They were just listening. Yeah, again, so product hunt was just a website where you could look at, oh, Amazon launched this new product, or some people. If they had a podcast section, I mean, how did they find it? Yeah, and they had a podcast section. So there'd be, there's mostly tech. So there can be games, there can be like, oh, we made this bot where you can talk to the presidential candidates. It's just apps that people were making, then on top of that there was also podcasts. So it, which was, you know, it was a startup, the sort of crowd. It was a techie sort of crowd. And like I say, I have no idea of knowing how engaged those listens were. I mean, I know that I've tried things like getting people to take actions, take surveys or giving them coupons for one of my courses or have people advertise. And I haven't yet necessarily had an advertiser that's really like, oh, this is a great value. I'm coming back. I'm giving you six months. So I don't know if those were real. And add to that, overcast. I'm actually starting to wonder, overcast takes up a huge percentage of my downloads now since I've bought a couple ads and basically bought 800 subscribers from overcast. Are those real? I don't know. Yeah. And so, okay, let's figure this out because it's important, right? We wanna know if our ads are working or we wanna know if we got real. How would you guys test this? Would you do survey? Like, Daniel, if you're spending money to get new listeners, how are you evaluating whether that's really working for you? You're just gonna base it off of some platform numbers? I would not, well, except in overcast. Okay, so let's take overcast, for example. Because I wouldn't spend money on Facebook to advertise my podcast. But let's just assume you would. But yeah, so overcast. I would see those numbers that tell me how many people saw the ad, how many people tapped on the ad, how many people subscribed because of the ad. I would see those numbers and then know whether it was beneficial or profitable for me. But... You wouldn't know because like David's saying, he doesn't know if they're real listeners. Are they subs that are engaged for half the episode? All the episode? None? Well, so then that's where the trending data comes in. Although with overcast. How are you gonna figure out if you're gonna spend next month? So what, that you got 80 subscribers? I do think that a survey is something I've been considering doing. I mean, I have other initiatives going on so I need to think about it. But I think having a survey, then it's fine. If 30% of the people who responded to your survey use overcast, then hey, that those numbers are likely pretty accurate. I think asking people to take an extra step is not a good way to try and measure whether your audience did truly increase because more and more consumption is happening on mobile devices where people are not able to take action. Yeah, but you're not against surveys. I mean, how are you gonna find out the full demographics of your audience? It is important at some point to know who's listening beyond what Libsyn or someone else is gonna give us. Well, what I would want to look for would be the trending data. And this is something that Todd Cochran from Blueberry often talks about because many of the podcast apps will pause a subscription or stop downloading new episodes if you haven't engaged with an episode in the last whatever number of episodes or something like that. Then you can start to see, okay, after you get 200 new subscribers, great. Do your numbers continue to stay 200 above where they were before or do they drop off after however many number of episodes you've released if that matches up with the threshold? So let's say five, since that's, I think that's still what the Apple Podcast app is. If after five new episodes, when you get this big spike of new subscribers for being a new and noteworthy, after five new episodes you've released if whatever subscription numbers drop, I'm talking subscription numbers, not meaning like consistent downloads per episode, then it kind of tells you that, okay, those people aren't engaging, they aren't staying with the podcast. But if you get to a new plateau and you stay there and continue to go up after that, then I think that tells you that, yes, these people are listening to the episodes, they're engaging with them in some way other than simply deleting them. A good thing about having good stats like lips and a blueberry is that you can tell where people are coming from. So you could actually parse that out by app, right, even overcast. So if you put your ad, you see the spike for overcast listens, then you average out over the next four months and see if that is rising, then you know you're keeping those people, some of those people you're reaching on overcast. According to the lips and stats, yes, I have kept them, but I don't, it's hard for me to say like, oh, there's definitely more, I'm getting more emails from people and I'm bringing my advertisers more results and those are the parts where it makes me wonder how many of these, and I don't know how overcast handles it if you subscribe and then you never listen again because it stopped downloading them, I'm not sure. But it makes you wonder, is that happening? I don't think so. Because I know I have a couple of shows where it's like, keep the last three and if I don't listen to any of them, it just keeps wrote, it deletes the fourth one and gives me a new one, so it just. So it keeps downloading, right? But we'll see, okay, so that's another problem, like I don't set anything to auto download, I don't understand it, because I press plan everything, makes no sense to me, but most people still do from what we know, auto download is I think still the dominant way that people get it to their device or download it however they're putting it on their, wherever they're putting it, their phone or whatever, right Dave, isn't that still the numbers that are still highest for download? The thing is the term is messed up because people. Right, because even when you listen to a podcast on a website, people love to call that a stream, but it's. It's a download. Yeah, it's a download. Aggressive download, but download to the device. So Daniel, what do you think? Do you think if someone set to auto download, Apple's never gonna know that person, they still have to press play on it, don't you? Apple still knows if you don't press play. Right, yeah, that's where the pausing comes in. If you don't press play on an episode for five episodes, Apple podcast will pause your subscription. And they'll probably, they may tweak that a little bit with the new iOS thing, maybe to say, okay, if you listen to the first 10 seconds of an episode and then skip it, we're gonna just count that as a not played and therefore after five times if you're doing this will pause your subscription. Maybe they'll do that. I don't know, probably not realistically. But they're already doing so. I mean, the thing is the most dominant platform is doing something that we can get something out of. Right, even probably in most cases that the numbers are statistically significant where you can say something. Whereas if on overcast, still such a small percentage. So it would be good for us to know if overcast is how they're handling it, but we can't do, we can't chase that down for every platform. Maybe get out to a podcast places, Daniel. Let's get to work there. Yeah, I seriously, I'm looking for volunteers to help me maintain podcastplaces.com. It's a good resource. So if you're looking to be discovered, the easiest, super simplest way to grow your audience is to get on a new platform because you're not at that place where those people, it's the only place they're listening to podcast. If you're not there, you're not finding you there. It's that simple. So podcast places, you'll get to work, but don't freak out and try to submit to all of them in the same day. What's up, Dave? Was lore, that podcast, was that a offshoot or some sort of public radio? I know the guy's a writer. Right. Yeah, I think so. It was just an independent, his story, I believe that he was a writer. He wasn't, he was trying to self-publish a book or something like that. It was from the podcast movement talk that he did. It basically said, oh, I just ended up recording audio and then that's how it became a podcast if I'm remembering correctly. So is that a case because he has friends in the media, he was able to get exposure? Because I mean, part of me goes, well, that guy didn't have any exposure problems and they're turning his podcast into a TV show. I think the right person heard it and they wrote about me or that or he has writer friends if he's a, he got press because it was really good, that helps. But there could be stuff that rivals it that's not getting that kind of press. And also think about the nature of the content is such that the potential audience is almost infinite. It's stories. That's why it's the hot. It's stories. It's format right now. And Aaron is somebody, Aaron Monkey, I believe this is his name, he's one of those, he's one of these people who will say, don't worry about anything but quality with your podcast. And I'll sit there and shake my head and say, yeah, I mean, it's true for a storytelling podcast and quality is important and most people overlook it. But I don't believe it's enough. So. I would agree with that. Well, it's, the theory is that it rises to the top. Right, the cream rises. That if it is that good, so for talking about quality of production and content, people can't not share it. Yeah, but on the other hand, I think of a thousand new podcasts coming out a week. It's hard to rise to the top when you got a thousand podcasts landing on your head. Relevance is what attracts people. Except that qualities what keeps them. Yeah, 2% of those are ones that people wanna share. I think it'd be fascinating to try to think of like the worst podcast name you could possibly think of and come up with the worst titles for your episodes. Dave did this. I did that. Dave did it. I did that. Have incredible content and see what happens. I did a podcast called. Yeah, I did a podcast called The Worst Podcast Ever. Oh, cool. And I did it as a grumpy old man. I would sit there and go, why are you listening to this show? It's stupid. You're an idiot. And I would literally just cuss out my audience. You know, the high LPR 40 is it, is it German? Should I see Kyle? Is it a Nazi podcast? What's the, you know, and eventually got kicked out of iTunes. I guess somebody said that. Oh, that's too bad. But I would still get 10 downloads an episode. If MPR had promoted you, he would have done really well. Yeah. I mean, that was awesome. Or would you? I've also fantasized about like if I, if I just made a podcast, it was strictly a business, okay? By my $5 Libsyn hosting plan. All right. How many minutes of content can I make there? And how, I'll just down release three episodes a day. I'll SEO the heck out of everything. And, and, but the content is terrible. I wonder how that would work. Time, time to the ROI would probably be poor. Rob's great illustration is with the two different movies. Rob Walsh refers to these two different movies, the sixth sense as one of them. Not a huge budget movie, but it did have Bruce Willis. And when people watched it, they told their friends, you gotta watch this. This is such a good movie. And for a while, M. Night Shyamalan Malan, Malan, Malan, Malan was known for making amazing movies until he stopped making amazing movies. But that aside, then Disney invests in Lone Ranger. And this is Disney. And they put all of this advertising into it and do all of these things to promote the Lone Ranger new movie coming out. And it was a horrible flop. Yeah. I even forgot that it had someone notable inside. Yeah. And it was a flop. Marketing doesn't help. You have to build what people actually want and you have to get it in front of the people who want it. I mean, 99% invisible. Fantastic podcast by Roman Mars. It's won multiple awards. Roman Mars is a great guy. He spoke, he was one of the keynote speakers at Podcast Movement. So incredible production quality going into his podcast. Incredible high quality podcast, fantastic thing. There's no way I would listen to it because it's not relevant to me. It's not what I want. So regardless of how much marketing is behind it or regardless of how good it is, I don't want it. And that's the key for me though because we always hear this like, it always seems to be the content is good. The marketing sucks. The marketing is good. The contents are like, all right. There's enough of us. Listen, good content and good marketing. Like I don't care. If you're falling down on one stage, I don't care. Let's talk about what's real. I'm gonna assume your content doesn't suck. If you're listening to this, you're making it better. But I wanna know what works best for someone who's doing it right, right? What I'm doing with the Audacity to Podcast, I don't really do marketing. Well, a little bit for the podcast. I market to my audience, my products and services. But the podcast kind of markets itself because I am being in an educational industry. This is easier to do. But I create content that people are actively looking for. People are asking these questions. They're entering them into search engines. They're posting them in social networks and such. And so I can respond with a link to the podcast or they discover my podcast because they searched Google for it and my podcast came up or dominate certain search results. And that works with, even for my entertainment based once upon a time podcast about the TV show because people are trying to figure out who is Rumpelstiltskin or who is Sheriff Graham, really. And so they type this stuff in and they find our website where we theorize about this stuff that's working for those. I'm not having to invest much in the marketing but when people get there, the content better be good enough for them to want to stay. Right, but you couldn't learn it and do better. Oh yeah, yeah, I could. But imagine if you had the same content and you didn't know search engine optimization. I think you'd probably not be doing as well. Right, yeah, I wouldn't. Also, well, make sure you have a website at a minimum, write some show notes, do a little work and hopefully you'll be found. Cause maybe someday Google will actually get their act together and I've been saying for a long time, imagine if the way Google used to show you videos, the first two things were videos. I mean, they know why you're searching. They even, heck, half the time they know your intent, they know what you want. Like if they could tell you, hey, there is a whole deep dive in this podcast about it. You know, I don't know why that would not be good for them. At least in the top results are on the side or something. So whatever. All right, we are about an hour here. So I think that we could probably do more distribution and even discovery. So maybe we'll have this one on again. But tons of fun. Let's see, David, you've said podcast movement several times, you're gonna be there? I am gonna be there. I'm flying all the way from Columbia to podcast movement in LA. That is a testament. Can I, okay. Why? What do you get out of that? That's expensive. It is expensive. I had more money when I bought the tickets. You want a free Libsons shirt. That's great. That was several months of podcasting before right now. So I went last year in Chicago because I happened to live in Chicago at that time and I was actually going back to Chicago from Columbia to empty out my apartment. But I was like, all right, I'm gonna go to this conference too while I'm there. And yeah, it's for me. That's an impression if you're coming back. Yeah, I met some people. It's nice to have a camaraderie and share in the struggles and also to learn about the industry from people who just learn, yeah, and learn as much as they can about the industry and are dynamic ads gonna be a thing? So you can find that out. And do you think going to the conference is gonna pay for itself? No, well, I mean, it might take a very long time. I mean, I am podcasting as professionally as I can. This is not a hobby, but I think it will take a long time for it to pay for itself. It's possible that it could. Maybe there's an advertiser or... Well, let me tell you, I mean, if you come to just, as a roundtabler now, I expect you to show up at our session. Okay, I've been looking through the sessions to see which ones to go to. So I'll go ahead and mark up on my app. What's inside a podcast RSS feed? So if you wanna dig deep into, if you know everything about the tags and the new tags that are coming out, then maybe not, but you could poke your head in and wave. Maybe sit in a chair for a second, make it look like it's more full. I think it's gonna be the whole audience. My goal is to put all roundtablers out there and it'll just be interesting. I'm interested in learning about the iOS 11 podcast app, you know, RSS feed, so I can be ready for that when that happens. That's right. All right. Well, all right, David, what is your show? Where can we find it? And we'll get on out of here. It is love your work. You can find it everywhere that you listen to amazing podcasts, or everywhere you listen to podcasts in general, not currently featured on the front page of iTunes, but it's in there. You can find it on Spotify and also on my website, cattivy.net. Did you try to get loveyourwork.com? Actually, loveyourwork.audio, you can go there. There you go. It's on my personal website. It doesn't have a website dedicated just to the podcast, which is a whole other issue. Well, I mean, you might be the brand, right? I mean, it's... Yeah. Oh, okay. There's a whole discussion. There's a whole other roundtable there. Cattivy.net's been around for 13 years, so, you know, loveyourwork's been around for two. It was a good place to just go ahead and put it on there. Nice. Well, it should be there regardless, I think, even if you definitely want people to find your podcast if they go to your site. If it has anything to do with you, which it should because you're the host, I would hope that it would be there. And having a separate website is a whole other conversation. We've actually talked about it, I believe, but we got to save something for the next round. We got 100 coming up. I'm so excited. Dave, thanks as always. Oh, Dave, we're up to Dave now. I'm sorry, I just used Dave, not David. Yeah, you did. Yeah, Dave Jackson from theschoolofpodcasting.com. Stop by and say hi for coming to a podcast movement. I'll be at the Libs and Booth. Podcast movement will be right at the time we should be having 100. So I think 100 is going to be after podcast movement, but yeah, we'll figure out a way to do something fun. Daniel, thanks for joining us as always. Thank you. I have a new $8,000 course coming out, which is how to get into Spotify new and noteworthy. So look for that soon. I'm Daniel J. Lewis from theidacitytopodcast.com. One last thought I wanna share briefly is bringing this back. Podcast discovery is not the problem because people aren't struggling with discovering podcasts. They're struggling with being aware of podcasts. So we need to focus on fixing the awareness problem and then we can focus on maybe helping their discovery along when it's relevant. Check me out over at theidacitytopodcast.com. So there is a podcast discovery problem. It's podcasts themselves that people need to discover. That is our job. We are part of internationalpodcastday.com. Daniel's got the shirt on. There you go, see? So you have to go to internationalpodcastday.com. We celebrate on September 30th, but it's a thing you do all year round. Spread the love. Tell people about podcasts, all right? If you're on a plane, you have a lot of time to sit next to the person next to you and introduce them to a podcast. Ask them what they're really into and maybe they'll find something they absolutely love. So yes, internationalpodcastday.com. All right, podcastersroundtable.com slash guest will get you on a round table at some point. If you let me know what the heck it is you wanna talk about or maybe you just answer my tweets or something controversial with another side. It's like I did yesterday. That was perfect. David killed it when he got on here. So lots of fun. We have a new round table and we will see you next time. Wave goodbye. Thank you. See ya.