 reality TV show The Apprentice boosted the careers of Donald Trump and Alan Sugar. Also, unforgivably, they introduced the world to the attention-seeking crypto-fascist Katie Hopkins. Now, today, after long-standing campaigns by anti-hate groups, Hopkins was permanently banned from Twitter, losing her platform to broadcast her bullshit to her 1.1 million Twitter followers, or what used to be her 1.1 million Twitter followers, which she does not have them any more. We'll go into some details about her career in a moment. First of all, Aaron, your instant take. Is this something we should be celebrating or are you into that crowd where we shouldn't celebrate when big American unaccountable private firms are censoring what goes out on their platforms? It's a tough one. I mean, we have a mind on this, I think, Michael, which, generally speaking, we don't think it should be a sort of ad hoc thing by private businesses because then these are such critical parts of freedom of speech and so on. Rights of publication, freedom of association, so on Facebook and Twitter. If you're not on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube, you're not participating in the 21st century conversation. And so it shouldn't be taken lightly. On the other hand, she's a white supremacist. I mean, I don't say that lightly. She's quite open about it. She will quite openly say, I think, white people are better than brown and black people. She'll say that. And she's often, I think, incited hatred. Again, I don't say that. I think she's literally incited specific issues. Tommy Robinson did something similar to that young Syrian boy, I believe, when he shared a video and he genuinely put that young man in danger. So I think it's a pretty good case, even if you are something of a free speech fundamentalist, not fundamentalist, I think, incitement clearly shouldn't be given a platform. But even if you really are on the side of caution with taking people's rights published and freedom of speech away from them on these platforms, even then, I think this is pretty much an open and shut case. I basically agree with that. I mean, also, it's not just a debate about free speech because Katie Hopkins is also a, I mean, she was promoted, given a huge platform for a very long time by many of Britain's most prominent media outlets. Let's look at a few of the grimmest examples of this. So between 2013 and 2015, Hopkins had a regular column in The Sun. She ended up being condemned by the UN's Human Rights Chief after arguing that migrant boats carrying Syrian refugees should be stopped by gunships. Let's look at how she defended this position in that particular column. So she said, no, I don't care. Show me pictures of coffins, show me bodies floating in water, play violins and show me skinny people looking sad. I don't care. Make no mistake, these migrants are like cockroaches. They might look a bit Bob Geldof's Ethiopia Circa 1984, but they are built to survive a nuclear bomb. They are survivors. Now that was published in Britain's highest selling newspaper in 2015, not 1975, not 1980, in 2015, calling migrants cockroaches. And also the context there is, you know, almost 4,000 people died trying to cross the Mediterranean that year, escaping a civil war. I also want to just get up before getting your comment on this, the tweet from the Sun to promote this piece because it just looks so fascist. Sun columnist Katie Hopkins says, you may as well set up a Libya to Italy P&O ferry. Show me bodies floating in the water, play violins and show me skinny people looking sad. I still don't care. And then she is looking at you in her blonde hair and her blue eyes smiling. It just gives me the absolute creeps. She left the Sun that year, but to go straight to the mail online, which at that point in time was Britain's most widely read online newspaper and went on to work for LBC. So we spoke last week about them finally firing, firing forage after platforming his hate for a really long time or way too long than they should have done. And she had the opportunity to do that every Sunday morning for over a year on LBC. She ended up losing that gig when after the Manchester Arena bombing, she tweeted and get this up, 22 dead, number rising, Schofield, don't you even dare? Do not be part of the problem. We need a final solution, Manchester. She was presumably tweeting, but it's Schofield. But that invocation of a final solution, obviously, you know, provokes comparisons with the Nazis, incredibly grim, disgusting. Aaron, do you think that Katie Hopkins could say those things that she said in the Sun on LBC now? Do you think we've kind of moved on a little bit as a society over those past five years, or or could you do we see similar language to that in the Sun still? Really great question. Really great question. Her editor at the time at the Sun was a gentleman called Stig Abel, or the executive editor. They kind of they had to have a very strange system after after 2011 and Liberson. Stig Abel was basically the top guy. Stig Abel now is fronting the Times Radio, which is going to be a competitor to Radio 4. He has a program on BBC Radio. He's increasingly prominent BBC radio. He'll do paper reviews, and I believe he's editor or he was editor. I don't know if that's carrying on now. The Times literary supplement, very respectable, respectable voice. You know, Modra, Bain, Metropolitan voice went to a lovely once were lovely expensive private school, and he was the person who okayed those words. So I think, you know, she might be out of the picture, but many people who enabled her, platformed her, pushed her forward, made her possible, okayed her, said it was fine, said this was a perfectly legitimate point of view in in a democratic society. Those people are all still with us. The person that commissioned the LBC show, Stig Abel, the person that got her into mail online, questionable, really questionable. She has gone. Tommy Robinson increasingly isn't playing a significant sort of role in the public conversation, but the people that elevated them, the people that said those points of view were legitimate. They're still around. And they're still very much shaping the nature of the political conversation and media and policy and politics to this day. Could she have said that now? No, I don't think she could have. I do think we've moved on, but the fact those people behind the scenes are still there. I mean, that really, I think, provides food for thought.