 The meeting of the Montpelier design review committee. I will let members and staff introduce themselves by speaking their names. Eric Gilbertson. Martha Smurski. Steph Mitchell. Steve Everett. And staff, Meredith Crandall. We also have Tammy Furie, our recording secretary on she'll be on for at least the beginning part of the hearing to make sure she's got everybody who's in attendance. Hi, all. Meredith, do you want to review the remote meeting procedures? Sure. You might end up needing to close out your video just because you seem to keep lagging, I think. Okay. All right. So I'm going to do a quick share screen for anybody who is watching via Orca and who might want to log in so that they can see how to do that. Are you guys seeing a remote or word document? Yes. Yeah, perfect. There we go. Because that's the most important stuff. Okay. So this meeting is being held via Zoom due to the COVID outbreak. And the DRC members are all able to speak contemporaneously, review documents, confer with the applicants and any public that wants to log in. If you do want to log in and you're watching via Orca, you can join the Zoom meeting using this link. You can also call in using this 929 number. In either case, there is a meeting ID number and password to log in. If you have problems with access, you can mail me here at mcrandall at Montpelier-vt.org. Now, turning on your video if you log in via Zoom is optional. Public testimony will be taken verbally. If you have any issues getting using Zoom or logistical questions, then you can use the chat function and chat with me, but please use this only for those issues. The chat will be added to the public record. If you're not speaking, please keep your microphone on mute to reduce background noise. If you would like to speak and haven't been called on by the chair, please press the raise hand button. In Zoom meeting, it's on the toolbar under the participants. Or you can write in chat, and we'll be able to see that in the public chat. If you're participating by telephone and want to speak, you can press star 9 to raise your hand. And you can also use the star 6 function to both mute and unmute yourself. As the host, I can also manually mute and unmute people. That only works sometimes. Sometimes people's personal settings don't let me mute them. If you're having connectivity issues, try turning off your video or closing other applications on your phone or computer. That can sometimes make the Zoom work better. And if you're having trouble seeing the document screen share, all files have been uploaded to this pending applications page. They're also on the agendas and minutes page on the city website where you can get to the meeting packet. If the public is having problems accessing the meeting, then we'll have to continue it to time and place certain that hasn't happened so far. Hopefully it won't. And then please note that all votes taken during this meeting that are not unanimous will be done by a roll call vote. I'll now hand the meeting back over to the chair, Steve. Okay. I'm asking the committee members for approval of the agenda. Do I hear a motion to approve? All in favor of the agenda, speak your names. Steve, Eric and Seth, do I hear your approval? I was on mute. Sorry, Seth. Yeah, it's good with me. Okay. Unless anybody has anything else to add, we can move to the first application for 30 State Street and we'll let Kelly describe her application for us. I'm mute. I'm not very good at zooming. Can you hear me? Yes. Feel free to let me know if you want me to pull up your application. I can do a screen share if you need me to. Well, I have nothing in front of me, so I'm not prepared for this. I had no idea what this was all about. I need that. I don't have anything. I apologize. Okay. Hold on. Let me scroll back up because I was looking at the meeting packet earlier. All right. Seth, can you see that packet, everybody? Yes. Yes. Okay. Great. So this is the wooden handcarved with the custom bracket. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this. Summarize the project in general first, if you want, Kelly, like what you're planning to do, and then we can go into the details. Okay, sure. So it's a children's store, clothing, toys and decor, not your typical toy store, no plastic, found on Amazon, that kind of stuff, mostly all wooden. My kids go to the Waldorf school and it's got that kind of feel. Tons of brands coming from Europe just because they seem to make beautiful stuff. I have a play area in the back room with a play kitchen and some things for children because I know with three kids how hard it is to shop with kids. I have a horse ride that's been refurbished. That's pretty amazing. And the outside, the colors and the sign they chose just kind of go with the design inside. I'm not sure what else there is to say about that. Is that enough? Yeah. So you have a sign and an awning and I'm trying to remember you're going to paint the wood too, right? Yes, the brown. Yes, well, we not that pink. That was just a very quick sampling of him showing me what the awning would. But yes, that's the light pink color. And the awning is a light minty green. I have window decals that just say minty canon pink and the light pink. Yes, that's the fabric, but it didn't show up very well on the photo. The samples that he sent me went to the store and I'm not at the store, so I never received them. And then the sign will just hang directly above the door. Well, the sign be located higher than the awning? Yeah, right. Yes, where she's waving that around. Now, will the awning be mounted on the brick or below the brick on the frame? Below the brick. I was told because of the historic building, things would be not able to be mounted on brick. So the sign would be on the mortar, the brick. I mean, the awning, I would be sure. I forget, he wrote it up, I believe. And what I submitted, I'm really sorry, I'm not prepared for this. Oh, it's okay. I'm looking for it right there. It's a little fuzzy. Mounting location, wall brick entrance. However, if he doesn't specify, I can make sure that he's, that they know that it can't be mounted to the brick. Will the awning cover the transom above the windows and door? Oh, I have no idea. Steve, that was a concern I had that that's a really a character defining architectural feature. And the drawings that looks like the awning will obscure that. And I think that you can mount the awning to the brick, but it has to be done in the mortar joints. Yes. And one of the criteria is that anything that you add does not obscure any architectural details. So if the awning can be mounted above, but will that awning be permanently extended, or will the awning track? It's not retractable. Okay. If it's not retractable, it should be mounted at least so that the transom above the main, the side windows and the door are exposed and visible because there's a lot of detail in that transom area. And again, one of the criteria is that any addition does not obscure architectural details. Okay, I hear what you're saying, but also I can't imagine I can't picture any awning placed so high above. I mean, if it were to go, yeah, it would be up in that hole. Is there a particular purpose for the awning? And I mean, to shelter tables outside or anything like that? Sure, no, it's more just the design, the look of it to make the building the storefront more noticeable and more beautiful. And the shelter from the rain and the snow, sure. Is there a different design of awning that would not have so much depth that would still you serve its purpose without obscuring the detail in the transom area? Well, I imagine a retractable one is the only way he had mentioned the reason why the farmhouse one would look nice is because of the triangle on the front that would kind of go with what you're saying it will cover up now, which I hadn't thought about. But I mean, if it's retractable, once it's retracted, it's covering it up, right? I can't get a retract up onto the brick. I just to be direct, I would have a very hard time approving an awning and obscured those details, or one that was mounted so high that you could see them. I think that would be, I think it would look kind of strange to have an awning like you designed that is mounted completely above the sore front and windows. So do you see an awning working that you would think would make sense at all? Or you think that an awning just won't work for my store? I think it's possible that a re that an awning might work, but it would have to be a narrow profile, possibly a retractable, so that it would give you enough room to mount your sign above it. But again, having having the design of the awning to match that triangle above the door defeats the purpose because the awning covers that anyway. Right. And that's a that's a significant architectural detail. So unfortunately, that's one of the criteria for approval. Okay, understandable. I mean, it's not covering it completely from a distance when you're under the awning. It's not making anything disappear. Yeah, I think from certainly from across the street, it would make it disappear. I went down and looked at it today. Be sure. Laura, I'll keep open that for her, please. And I think mounting the awning on the window woodwork is not a good idea. That's likely to be a little bit fragile and not designed to support any weight. Sure, I'm just confused because if it's not supposed to be mounted to the brick or the wood, where does it mount? You could you could mount it to the brick. It just has to be mounted in the mortar joints, rather than a brick. Okay, but it's like an awning isn't really an option for me anyway. Is there any precedent for this on this facade? Do we have any overall photos, street photos? I have nothing in front of me, whatever's been submitted. I'm so sorry. I kind of think this is one of the original star fronts that's left because of the date of the building in 1915. And that was sort of a Greek redrival and they've got the Greek revival pediment and the woodwork looks original to me. I've looked at it. And a lot of the other star fronts along there have been altered over the years. Sorry, I don't know if I'm supposed to say more if I'm this with anyone else has anything to weigh in on it? Who who's proposing the awning to install it? It's Otter Creek? Yeah. Could you contact them and and tell them the difficulty or and with the awning and the fact that it's covering the architectural details? I mean, to be able to only see those details when you're underneath the awning really sort of defeats. Sure. Having all of that wonderful detail on the front of the building when you can't see it unless you're underneath the awning. They should be Otter Creek should be aware of that in an historic district. No, I mean, it was his question. I don't know anything about awnings. He told me he's done awnings in the town and that was what he recommended for the building. And it looked beautiful to me. If you're not okay with that, then I will just scrap the awning because it I think retractable awnings are not what I want. You saved me $4,000. So that's okay, I guess. Okay, I mean, if you wanted to, you know, explore an alternative, that would be okay. But if you want to scrap the awning, that's that's fine too. Right. I mean, if if you're not okay with what I've come up with, then maybe down the road, I can propose something else. But for right now, if that doesn't work, I will just scrap that for now. Okay, again, the problem is the criteria that we have to go by judge a project by indicates they they don't encourage anything that hides architectural detail on the building. And unfortunately, that awning would do that. Sure, I hear that. I have no issue. I have no issue with the paint color. And how meeting the awnings find by me, I think science should be mounted in the mortar in the brick and not mounted to the to the wood. I don't see how it could be mounted to the wood. No, it's not going to be mounted to the wood. It's going to be mounted up in the above. Okay. It's an outside. That's a vertical bracket that iron bracket. And again, the attachments, the attachment can be made and the mortar joints of the brick so it doesn't cause any issues with the structure of the brick. Yes, I've told that to the wood and wood sign people. Yeah, they shouldn't know that anyways. Right. Any lighting? Outside, no. Nothing on the side? No. And nothing exists? No. And one other quick question is the is the color, the rose color for the front paint? Is that an accurate color representation? There is a color swatch that is accurate, not the pink that is like computer generated with the awning. I'm looking at the Sherwin Williams chip. Yes, that is it. And it looks pretty accurate to me. It's a light pink. Okay. Have you have you taken the swatch and held it up against the brick and you're satisfied that it's compatible? To me, yes. And I painted a big cardboard swatch with a sample of it to get a better, better view of the color. But you know, pink isn't for everyone. I love pink. So I think it'll be great. But Part of your branding, I take it. What's that? Part of your branding? Yes. Yes. The custom colored horse painted horse ride is the same colors as the branding. Come look, say hi. I'm in here. Got some good help today. I've got children floating around all over the place. I'm trying to get through this. Meredith, do you have the swatch? I can put it back up. Do you have the actual physical sample in your file? Yes. Can you hold it up? Hold on. Let me go back. It's out in the other room. Give me a second. Never looks the same in a photo or on a screen. But we do our best. I've got punky lighting in here, but the swatch, that scan is pretty close. It looks better in the scan than that. I think that looks like mauve. Yeah, it doesn't show up really well with this light. But it's it's very close to the scan. One thing you can do is in the in the process of the application, we can give you the option of in that color family as you paint it, if you're not totally happy with it, you have the ability to tweak it a little one way or the other or darken it if it if in painting it. It would look better. I mean, again, it gives you the option to get make it a little darker if you so choose. OK. Are you all appalled by my pink choice? Oh, my house is supposed to be painted pink right now. And I went mint at the last minute because of I just did. But I love I think it's OK. The the pink wouldn't be my choice, but I'm not. OK, honestly, that wall of buildings is just so brown and bland. And I can't. I mean, every time I tried to find cocoa beans, my eyes couldn't find it. And the only thing that I really stands out is in the toy store that's bright yellow and blue. But I feel like everything else just blends together over there. Personally, it's not the brightness. It's compatibility of color families. And the brick brick has sort of a brick is a yellow based color. Not that your sign has to be yellow. But any any kinds of yellows or colors that go with brick can still be bright and they'll be compatible and they'll have depth to them. So again, that's you have the ability to work with that color that you're choosing the rose color to work with that to find a shade of that. It's bright and looks really rich with the brick. Right. And again, you can tweak that as you apply it because sometimes you pick a color and then you paint it and stand back and look at it and go. You you might want to tweak it a little one way or the other. Right. Trust me. I I've had plenty of paint regrets halfway through the project. Paint is not that expensive. That's probably one of the least expensive parts of your project. Yeah. Yeah. So far, I've I've loved everything inside, but. Well, Dan's doing a nice job. Yes, you've seen in there. Yes. Does anyone else have any other comments, questions or suggestions? Any of the other committee members? Eric, go ahead, Eric, I don't. I would suggest something on the window signage as well. So I have I sent Audra a. Geez, my brain. Just like two days ago, the Woodenwood people sent me a sketch of pink minicum and down at below says heirloom quality toys closing decor. I said I was too late to add it to my packet because I don't already mailed it in. And the other thing is, if if you have something like that made, you can hang it inside the glass and you don't have to go through an approval process. So that's what her response was. Is it interior or inside the glass or out? And so I said inside and I'm asking them if they can do it inside. So. So that. Yes, you don't have to go through an approval process if you hang it inside the window, right? I think I never even sent it to me because she knew it was going to be inside. So I don't have. Sorry about that, Kelly, or just one quick comment. Just because of the proximity to the sidewalk as you're walking by and even across the street, whatever you have inside the window, you probably should shoot for a maximum of 12 inches of letter height. No more than 12 because 12 inches. By sign design recommendations, that's certainly visible, easily visible from 100 feet away. OK. Yes, I was saying you can do it smaller than that. But you probably don't want to go larger than 12 because it makes it less readable for people on the street and the sidewalk. OK, I'll see what they wrote up. I imagine 10 inches probably was the pink Minakin. And then I don't know what the smaller below. OK, and again, that's just a suggestion because you don't that doesn't have to go for approval because it's inside the glass. OK, I appreciate it. I don't know what I'm doing with anything I'm learning as I go here. That's OK as you can probably tell. Any other committee members have anything to add? And you guys are OK with the sign? Yes, yes. I think that's unanimous. The sign looks very nice. Awesome. Thanks. One one quick comment on the sign and again, it's an option. A lot of times when you make a sign the way you have, you have an iron bracket on the top. If you do a thing, it looks like the iron bracket is going to be black. If you were to do a thin, thin black hand strike around the perimeter of the sign, it just make it just makes it stand out and makes it actually more readable. And again, that's that's an option. You don't have to do that. But if you look at a number of signs around town, look at the ones that have a thin profile border around the perimeter. And again, that's very easy to add. Right. I got a tattoo once and I asked him to not put a black outline because I didn't want it. And he told me no because of what you just said. Basically, I was mad because I didn't want the black outline. But I said, OK. Well, a tattoo on us and your sign on the street might have different. I'll I'll have her design me one with a black and see what it might think. But you can just you can add it or or not. Again, that's just something that a lot of people do it and just makes it stand out. Sure. Thank you. So what I'll do is I'll go through there are two sets of criteria for the application and one of them is the design review form for at this point, it will just be the paint. OK. On the facade and the criteria number one preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style if the proposed projects in the historic district, that's acceptable. Harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district acceptable. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district acceptable. Compatibility of proposed landscaping, non proposed. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials, acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, acceptable. Actually, they're none in this application. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas, including gateway views of the city and state house, acceptable. All in favor of the color for the building. And again, she has the option to darken the shade of the color as she chooses once it's applied. All in favor of the application. Speak your names. Eric. Martha. So Steve. So that's approved for nothing. Hey. And then the there's a second set of criteria for the sign. For the sign number one, a preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style, acceptable. Harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed landscaping, not applied for in this application. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials, acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, no lighting proposed. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas, including gateway views of the city and state house, acceptable. Conformance with city skate placement and design recommendations, acceptable. Compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties, acceptable. Shall not obscure significant architectural details, acceptable. Consistency and uniformity of multiple signs, not applicable. Illumination, not applicable. Pinnots and banners, not applicable. And individual letters of fixed painted or engraved directly on the building or structure are encouraged. And this sign at this location is acceptable. All in favor of the sign again, members, speak your names. Eric, Martha, Seth and Steve. So your sign is approved. And you made a note to the audience and taken out of the application. Yes, I will make a make a note of that. But I ask one more question. And I'm sorry to keep going. But if could you possibly bring back the picture of the storefront? There's the brown trend, the brown wood trim I'm painting. But in the I don't know what the word is that I want. But on the inside, someone painted the brick white. I'm curious if that white area, see what I mean? In the frame of it, yeah, if that can be painted pink also or should be painted pink also, or if you have suggestions or objections. Either way, I don't much care for that idea of painting it personally. Leaving it white like that. Yes, could I put a fresh white or you want me to just not touch it? Personally, I wouldn't touch it. OK, that's fine. And I agree with Seth. OK, good by me. OK. Again, I think that would would be better. Leave it just leave it weathered. OK. I just wasn't sure it's too bad that it's painted at all in there. So I didn't know if it would look better if it was just all the same or leave it, but I'll leave it. The other thing you can do is you could take a picture of one of the brown or colored bricks and you could get whoever is doing the painting of the rose on the facade. You could get them to do a color match to the brick and just do a sponge it on, which would. Get rid of the white. OK. And I have something to match the brick. I just don't think it would look better if it was the rose color. OK. You're going to have a hard time matching the brick because it's kind of model. Yeah, I don't care for that idea really. OK. Just leave it white then. OK. OK. Well, do. Thank you. Thank you very much and good luck with your project and wishing you all the success. Thank you so much, Kelly. You'll get an email from me with a copy of the recommendation forms that Steve went through with all those criteria. You'll get a copy of those with Steve's signature on them. And if you could sign yourself and then send either you can drop them in the drop box or scan and email them back to me. And then once I have those, we'll be able to issue your permit. OK, and then can I should I not tell them to go ahead with the sign until I get that permit or can I tell them to start fabrication? They can start. They can start making a sign for sure. OK. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, she's coming to say goodbye. Bye. Bye. That's not your thing. Kelly, thank you guys. This is your new advertising department. Yeah, they're the best models for Instagram. That's great. Oh, good. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. OK, ask your toys. Oh, yes. Yeah. My son makes me give him one of everything I open. It's crazy. Not me, but he's very persistent. Yeah. Well, good. Thanks again. Thank you. OK, you guys. OK, Meredith, we can move on to the application for 9 School Street. Yep. So that would be Tiffany. Hello, can everybody hear me? Yes, I hear me. This is Tiffany with one stop signs. I'm here representing TD Bank. So basically, the only thing that TD Bank are proposing is face changes. Our square foot is going to stay the same. The sign placement will not change. Just basically going from the darker green to the lighter green with just white TD Bank logo. Pretty simple. Notice that the signs don't say bank on it anymore. Right. Just TD. Sorry. And Tiffany, is the same size as the original? The exact same size. Yes. Just one quick question. The the width of the sign. Is significantly longer than the TD Insignia? Was there a reason to leave it that length? Guess what they are wanting. They didn't give a reason for it, but that's what they were proposing. That's the artwork that we got. I am a little bit curious is why they don't put bank on there. Otherwise. Somebody that doesn't know what it is, is not going to know where it is. Yeah, I'm not sure why they left the bank out on that. Does anyone on the committee have any comments or questions or suggestions regarding the sign? Eric says no. Would are you in favor of it the way it is? Or you said no, because you wouldn't approve it? I don't know. I don't have any suggestions. Don't have any questions or suggestions. OK, I'm fine with it the way it is. I am curious about why it doesn't have bank on it, but that's just my curiosity. Mine is mine as well. Did this their branding just go by TD for Toronto Dominion? A lot of people have no idea what TD stands for. I think it's that's what we've done about 300 locations now. And that's what they have changed it to is just the TD. I think it stands for turbo diesel. Well, somebody in the marketing department, I think, is, I mean, that obviously their decision, but it's unfortunate because so many people don't know what's the TD stands for that TD bank at least gives somebody an idea that it is a bank. But anyway, absolutely. What we can do is we can approve it the way it's proposed. I mean, and then we can give them the option to add bank back in if they get enough questions from people as what is it now? OK. Does that sound agreeable to the committee members? That's absolutely good. Yes. I'm thinking about the Northfield Savings Bank a couple of months ago. Didn't they also really shorten their logo? Yeah. Yeah. OK, if nobody has any other comments or questions, we can go through the criteria for this one. Number one, a preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style as the proposed if to propose projects in the historic district acceptable. Harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed landscaping, non-proposed. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials, acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, no changes proposed. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas, including gateway views of this of the city and state house, acceptable. Conformance with city skate placement and design recommendations, acceptable. Three, compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties, acceptable. Number four, shall not obscure significant architectural details, acceptable. Number five, consistency and uniformity of multiple signs. This is not applicable. Six, I'm sorry. It's two different signs. OK. That's multiple signs in CB2 and OP districts. Oh, oh, right. Sorry. I forgot about the district. Because of the district, that should not be applicable. You're right. Sorry about that. No, that's OK. Illumination, not applicable. Penets and banners, not applicable. And individual letters of fixed, painted or engraved directly on the building or structure are encouraged. And this application, this sign proposed is acceptable. So with the the two options up to them as to either add bank or if they decide to shorten the width of the sign because there's only PD there, which is one foot nine inches on a 12 foot sign, they can shrink the width of it as well. OK, I'll let them know. To give them those two options and based on that, do I hear approval for the application and committee members speak up for approval? Eric says yes. Martha says yes. Teth yes. Steve says yes. So it is approved with those two options. Thank you. Thank you. And Tiffany, I'll be doing the same thing that I did with the previous application, where I'll send you the application, the recommendation forms to check up off on and then send back to me because there are optional changes in here and just to make sure you agree with those. OK. And then we'll once we get that back, we'll issue out the permit. Great. Thank you so much. Everybody have a great night. Thank you. Thank you. OK. Now, the next application is for some design changes to a building at 54 State Street. And because we're one of the owners of the building, I'm going to turn this over to Eric to run so there's no conflict. Yahoo. Lucky you. Let me to explain the two, two stages of review, almost three stages of review. This is going to go through. Yes, I was going to ask you to do that. OK. So, and this, this is for everybody on here, and then we did explain it to John. John's application came in after city council adopted the new design review regulations. But before they go into effect, they don't actually go into effect until September 17. So is this, there's this strange process under Vermont statute where if you have an application that comes in window, so both sets of act of regulations apply to the application. So we're going to review this application for the window changes as we normally would. And as we have been for years and years under the standard seven evaluation criteria, but then we also need to review it under the new regulations and again, and I'm sorry. Doctor helped me come up with a couple of really quick and dirty recommendation forums that Eric has that are really just cut in past of the, what will be the new regulations that take effect later this month. And there's a one section that's provisions that apply to all project there's gonna be a lot of things that are not applicable. There's stuff about proposed landscaping, you know location appearance with utilities, none of that stuff is gonna apply. So a lot of what Eric says is he'll just read like the quick little bold section and say not applicable and sort of check it off. We have a square. Pardon? We have a square to put something in and put it into a square. So I would say check if it's applicable and NA if it's you know to check if it's acceptable and NA if it's not applicable or you can just cross the whole thing out the whole provision out we'll work it out like I said this was really quick and dirty because none of you I mean you know the regulations better than probably anybody else on the DRC but it's it's it's a little crazy and then there's a whole other recommendation form that's about additions and alterations to historic buildings and because the building that Julio's is in is a historic building we have to look through those but there's not you know there's not a whole lot in there the biggest thing is there's special provisions specifically about changes to windows and doors. I did not do a line-by-line comparison but I thought you guys did a really good job of categories and stuff like it was all address you pretty much copied pasted and then changed section numbers to little boxes checkboxes for you. We'll come up with something a little prettier before the 21st but we got into how to do something quick so that we could get John in so that he can okay just made so John would you like to explain your project? You got to unmute yourself. Alright, I assume everybody can hear me? Yes. Yes. First of all I'm not looking down my nose at any of you but I have bifocals on so it's it gets interesting putting my head up and thank you very much for doing this I know that it was difficult to do I was asked to go to the 22nd 21st 22nd but I'm on a timeline with the manufacturer because apparently a lot of folks are trying to do this in the world right now so I appreciate the effort. Our project is to replace the two fixed windows in front of Julio's with operable windows they'll be sliding windows there will right now the windows are approximately six feet across on each side and there will be two there'll be three two-foot panels and they will open up going outwards giving us an eight-foot opening in the center of the of the windows the main reason driving this is the words have not yet been spoken tonight which is well I guess they were earlier regarding regulations is COVID-19 and airflow our building it's a great building we love being there but it does not provide a tremendous amount of airflow and that's a concern we have another project that will be going for approval on if we can manage to squeeze the funding out to improve fresh air flow coming in from outside but another way for winter but right now what we're looking for is to try and get these windows so that they open up so we can get fresh air coming through that's pretty much it I let's put the drawing Marinus can you put the drawings up for the windows yep so here's what they are now and then here's the proposed so it looks like John these would slide these two would slide this way and that's right slide this way that's right that's right and the the one thing I couldn't really show in the picture is that there will be some depth to the windows because they're sliding windows so they're not going to be directly flush with one another okay are you going to have to do any real changes other than the molding to the current frames no the way we've got designed is that most of the installation will be on the inside the sill in one that we've got a wide sill inside so I've been told that we don't have to make many changes so it's not going to look much different on the outside from a wood perspective at all some of the molding might be taken off and put back on in the process of installation but most of these windows effectively I think from what the guy was supposed to be here from Burlington glass with me tonight but he something came up that he couldn't be here the main thing that's going to change the windows are going to be at the depth that they're out now at now going inside further into the building so not changing the exterior of the woodwork and how how wide are the the dividers the vertical lines that show up I believe that they're an inch and a half to two inches they're not particularly wide and I believe you have a cut sheet for the it's kind of hard closing yeah it doesn't really there's a chart here but that's not clear can you can you zoom in on the detail I'm gonna have to move this to my bigger screen so I might have to read here we go hold on go back you want to go back up with the numbers were yeah yeah please it gets really fuzzy because this one I think we had to do us we had to do a scan of it and it didn't come out real well it looks like one inch but it's a little fuzzy it's two inches on a corner looks like one inch at a mall you're good you're speaking a language I'm not that familiar with so and the the frame going around the outside is going to be the same inch inch and a half whatever it is on the wood is that what you're talking about yes we're I mean there's a frame that goes around where the wood right you know you can't really tell but is it tight against the wood or I believe it's going to be placed inside pretty much so there that's why I really wanted to hear I don't think you're gonna get much more what he told me is it's not gonna be very intrusive at all because we're gonna be doing most of the frame will go on the inside of the window and just the exterior window will come up to this year to the existing it's gonna be the plane of the window is gonna be back several inches from what it is now the first pain the one in the on the left on the far left of fixed pains are gonna be on the plane of the window now the other two windows on each side are going to be set back a little bit yes nature of a sliding window they're each can be back about an inch and a quarter and are you thinking about screens no we're not we that's good come up with folks for questions regarding bugs and whatnot but I will tell you having operated this summer we are not operating indoor Julio's right now we're only operating outdoors and so the front door has been open almost all summer and we have had how do I say this every place everybody has issues with flies in the summertime they show up we've had the least amount of issues because it seems they all want to get outside the days of open sewers and whatnot indoor and open toilets the flies aren't coming in they're trying to get out so and this have been unusual year because it's so dry yeah that's true too but a lot of people get other restaurants if you go up to places Montreal's a famous favorite spot for us to go to but also at loonings and whatnot none of them have screens in Burlington this would this project does not include the windows on the parking lot side is that correct it does not we were concerned for a number of reasons about that mainly because of cars and trucks parking on the side and idling and we didn't think that was going to be helpful okay now this would be completely reversible if somebody didn't want the sliding windows and put the old glass back in again yes I don't see why that couldn't happen no sawing or anything on the frames not that I'm aware no he's did not say that there would be any sawing on the frames and that basically it would look the same pretty much on the outside except that the aluminum frame which will be in the dark bronze would be set in and behind it there so no we're not we're not planning to change the wood in the facade in any way I don't I don't think the landlord would have been wild about that to be quite honest so again we've always thought the idea of kind of being able to bring the patio to indoors might be nice we would have never spent $13,000 to do it we wanted my original plan was to do the bifold style doors that you can take so basically you keep the same plane however that added $15,000 to the project and we're barely pulling this off so anybody else have any more questions about this not for me well other than seeing more details that would be helpful section details as it relates to the wood frame but they're not available so be it I don't think that the glass is going to be remain in the same plane though just based on those details was probably going to be on three different planes right there will be on three planes the glass on each side will be on three planes by the nature of sliding doors yeah that's that's and how how how thick I mean I how thick is the glass and the I'm looking at the I'm looking at the sheet now because I can I can read it here it's a six inch frame with a two inch still if that's helpful what I don't know it's six inches deep the overall depth of the wind of the entire unit is six inches deep each door I'm gonna guess or it would be two inches deep so six inch frame two inch cell two inch so I think that that's yeah that's it right there so 5 30 seconds it's probably the glass is probably an inch Eric somewhere around there total thickness all three layers well it's well you've got right you've got the inside outside and then the air in between that was three planes rather than a single a single each one is going to be set back that's correct the first one will be I believe that will be at the plane of the existing window and then the next one's going to be set back and then the one after that will be set back so it steps back left or right on the left hand side the window the window furthest to the left will be at the plane of the existing and on the right hand side the window on the furthest to the right will be on the plane of the existing and so as you get to the center it's going to set back with each panel I think this is going to be a fairly significant visual change that uh from a sliding from a single pane windows to the sliding but I can get along with it if if it's reversible so sometime in the future you can put it back to what it is now without without rebuilding the whole window piece I'd be willing to stipulate that that we could do that and I'll make sure I'll get a sign off from the contractor from Burlington glass before we started any work the lead thing that's driving the rush and why I really wanted to meet tonight and I'm sorry is not is we have a nine to twelve week window to do this and we are trying to use some of the grant money that we got from the state which has to be spent by December 31st to do this so we've got 12 weeks from September puts us into mid December which is why we're a little bit rushed tonight probably more so than I might have if you didn't have an operational reason for doing this and based on the current COVID crisis we have I I probably would say no but based on based on your reasoning and the reversibility I'm okay with it I think we need to accommodate changes Republic Health may be a little strong but maybe not well I will tell you that once right now with where we're at we will I'm 66 and I've had a heart surgery so COVID's kind of I'm one of those folks with the bull's eye so we have not opened up indoors this year and we won't this fall we'll go only to take out until we can increase our flow in a variety of different ways that we're looking at we can be assured that we can meet the best standards so we're looking at like I said some other steps to do that so the so you've done a cost analysis with you know basically looking at the HVAC upgrading that and in lieu of of adding in the window we have we've we've looked at we've looked at both and we can improve the HVAC to some degree but not for our peak times in order to get enough fresh air flow in right now we've got a intake on one side it goes through a cooling condenser and blows right back out the other side so we don't have a lot of makeup air in that we're looking at a project which will include an old exhaust fan on the side of the building to bring more fresh air in but I've been told by a line of mechanical that we won't get enough to meet the standards that we're looking to reach unless we have operable windows in the front also that's good to know the in another project I worked on that we for our kitchen we put in a heat recovery system so that you're capturing the heat from I was joined by my faithful assistant and that works pretty good to capture you know not just blow the heat outside and you probably looked into that but John I'm 80 and have had hard surgery so I'm very careful you you I'm 80 on the inside most days I think so the anyway anybody else have any comments questions not for me okay here we go with the form should we marry this we do the old form first I have one last thing John in the winter how did how is that going to pan out if the HVAC can't keep up you're gonna have a window open during the winter no no we're not and we don't know in reality what we're planning to do is for this winter work on getting the HVAC improved for next summer and we're hoping all of this planning is based on the fact that sometime in mid to late 2021 we'll be ahead of the game with COVID and won't have to worry about it quite as much but that for next summer we're we've basically laid out our finances that we can survive through some planning and some work with the landlord and other folks we believe we can survive until next June even if we do not bring people inside the restaurant assuming that the virus is going to last through the winter there's a pharmaceutical intervention that could change pretty dramatically and we'd be happy to have that happen but you're taking great it works very well thank you we've been working hard at it and we'll be doing some new things with that but to find next summer we're gonna need maximum air flow in there including the HVAC and including the windows in order to be able to open indoors now I'm hopeful that we'll have gone overkill at that point in time I just don't know and we I'll tell you right now that we are off on a monthly basis right now about 65% from where we were and the only reason that we are still able to operate and pay the bills is because of PPP and because of state grants and so rather than just using that money out we're trying to find things that we can do with the building that will allow us to continue on into the future and not just lose what I thought at the end of next year was gonna be my sale of my business and my retirement but now my one-year plan has turned into another five-year plan Steve is well aware of my constant five year plans and my one-year plan changed so I'm still trying to retire so good luck well I don't know what retirement quite looks like or even with the idea is it seems that there's always something to be done but the idea of still operating a restaurant was not in a couple years was probably a little bit outside of the realm I think the the it's amazing how people have adapted to having measures to be able to operate during the COVID I'm interested in like I said that's under normal circumstances I probably would not approve this but I'm going to for this it's it's just hard it's just every day is it's challenging and it gets a lot that's why we're open less hours and there's not the demand and the work is is hard it's harder than it's been for me in a long time so I believe that and I understand the questions too about the windows and that's why I really wanted the guy here from the company I would agree with Eric that if it's reversible then it's becomes more of more of a non-issue for future I'm gonna sign off for about a second my new computer is being delivered I guess it's time for it so John is it are you shooting for a particular berf rating on on the system or is it is there HEPA filtration involved I mean yes well there's a couple of things involved there is bringing in we really don't have fresh air into the HVAC right now and I'd have to when we go for that project it sounds like you know a lot about it I'd love to get your phone number and have you take a look at the plan that we've got but in addition to everything else we are we just ordered also using state grant money just to get us through the winter inside a well we looked at putting certain filtration into the existing ductwork but what we've been told is that because of the nature of a place that cooks 2 million tortilla chips a year during a good year there are some problems with HEPA filters generally speaking what was recommended was we get for a portable unit that we could put in the front of the house so we just ordered a $600 unit in the front that's triple HEPA sub 13 something or that was recommended that'll handle 2800 square feet I'm not as worried about the back at house honestly because of the hood system or pulling air out but this is for the front of the house to process the air up there and the new system would bring in fresh air and have I want to say he said something about accordion filters in it with appropriate pressure drops but now I'm going from memory of a guy that I trust we manage my wife and I also managed a people's united bank building down the street so I'm using the HVAC contractor for this project or he's getting the proposal together that we use down there I figure if they can do that five or six story building they can probably help me get airflow into Julio's and figure out the appropriate amounts yeah sounds like you're on the right track thank you okay you're ready for the criteria okay I'll read off the criteria preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style it's a proposed project is in the historic district I'm gonna say that's acceptable because it's reversible it's a response to current health conditions and reversible harmony of exterior design with other it's acceptable and see above compatibility of proposed exterior materials and other properties in the district acceptable compatibility of the proposed landscaping not apple preservation of the use of it's incompatible the prevention of the use of incompatible designs buildings color schemes or exterior materials that's acceptable location and appearance of all utilities not well recognition and respect for view corridors and significant visions not have said the recommendation for the development review based on the need to operate during COVID and the first of let's see optional changes I'm gonna put there not a change but adjustments in the scope I'm gonna put in there that applicant agrees to no damage to existing work and worse ability oh so we try the new ones need to vote on maybe to vote under the current ranks and then vote again under the new ranks sorry okay hey that's the president's recommendation is to vote twice right okay all in favor of this application please say your name Martha I'm assuming Steve is abstaining I abstained yes I can't vote okay thank you John I just like to ask one question we've talked a lot about having this be a reversible is there a place in the building where the windows that are there now can be stored yes there is a place that they could be stored in the basement we have room down there we have a large area down there that they could be put in I'm also pretty sure I could probably work something out with the landlord he has some storage space down on his side of the building where it might be there might be a little around a little less traffic flow of a bunch of crazy cooks running around looking for something at some time so is that something that you're willing to do sure thank you you're welcome I didn't hear that existing windows will be safe thank you could I could I ask one question as we're going down as I is there I'm just thinking about dollars and investment is if I'm approved for this under these well how we're speaking about it right now is this something that next year the board may come back and say change it back again no okay all right the only condition I can see that be is there be another project on the building okay also windows okay all right so Eric you probably want it for the new rage you probably want to do the one that has the title all projects first that'll typically that we will do that and versus the additions and alterations to historic buildings now does everybody have said can you put it up on the screen yeah I can put that on the screen I don't know whether everybody has copies of it like I made they don't they don't I think we just sent those to you and Steve so give me a second there's a lot of stuff in here that's not gonna be applicable to this particular project sorry give me a second I gotta save it onto Mike just just a second I'm gonna go get my glasses and one other thing if anybody sees that Holy Oaks is closed this week it's only because we're on vacation that's we've been planning it and telling everyone so nobody thinks anything nothing horrible happened there thank you does everybody see this all projects sheet yes so I can read the whole thing but if you've got it up on the screen then I don't need to yep I think that makes a lot of sense Eric exterior design and materials and new constructions or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building that is okay building should be recognized a physical record of its time and place and use I think that's okay proposed landscaping I'm gonna put a zero for not applicable okay that work well make these better before the next meeting oh they're fine it just there's no instructions and I need it location and appearance of all utilities not applicable alteration of buildings called for by public safety accessibility and fire codes will be designed to maintain the character instruction I'm gonna put a check mark there because it's just generally for the COVID for ethical development show designed to respect use of the state house I don't know whether you can see the state out outside that window out that window or not the parcels both river frontage not applicable height not applicable portion not applicable rhythm not applicable growth shape not applicable architectural features and including but not limited to bunch of stuff I would say that's that's acceptable because they're staying as windows roof drainage system not applicable most no signage or anything John no there we may at some point in time want to put something inside those windows similar to the way kids would have the the stencil on the inside we're we don't review that anyway outdoor lighting no lighting fixtures or anything no not in this project no landscaping no landscaping no bushes in the window no under recommendations I'm gonna put again and reverse ability okay I just set these forms up so that they each form has a vote and signature I think we just do one right now we did one vote per project under each set of rules so I don't think we have to worry about voting till we finish the alterations to historic buildings form okay now we got can we do additions and alterations on the screen yep this historic character shall be retained character defining features developments will not destroy any treatments that cause damage to start materials including but not limited to chemical the development shall be differentiated I'm gonna write recommendations not not really well I guess it is a change to the scope is that current wood framing Eric I'm having a lot of trouble hearing you okay I says current wood framing and trim will not be damaged windows will be stored so that's I'm gonna do a check mark for that and rhythm site features street trees that's not at all materials it's a check mark it's good I think rhythm might be applicable Eric what I think rhythm might be applicable so not appropriate to add cover over or remove a window or dirt opening on facades visible from a public street so it's acceptable because they're not covering or adding a new opening right it's right demonstrates it is essential to operations occurring within the building yeah I as a suggestion I think putting some lines to write on believe beneath each one of these checks would be a good idea I had a really short week last week due to lack of child I can write without lines and mostly do yep no we'll make this a little more user-friendly and also not the full text of every single provision but you guys need some time to also learn the provisions okay not applicable I think that's okay reversible character defining the window and door patterns that's acceptable and reversible no size windows remain the same size porches and stairs no porches and stairs okay okay we don't need to vote on this one well now you need to vote because now you have to vote on this web onto as to whether or not the application is approvable under the regulations they're gonna take effect September 17th new regulations all in favor of this being approved under the new regulations as currently drafted I say yes Martha yes Eric says yes and Steve abstains again awesome I will I don't know exactly when I'll be able to get these down to you tomorrow okay but I'll just sign them and put them an envelope and put them in the dropbox with your name on it perfect that works it works perfect that's what Steve does so do that might be early afternoon is that soon enough yeah that's fine that's fine and John will I'll get those skinned out to you and because there are some conditions on here that work in the application I'll want you to sign off on them and then send the scan back to me or just drop it back in the drop box and then we'll get permitted okay that's great I'll take care of that and I am going to have another meeting with the bulletin glass folks to make sure that everything is going exactly like I said what happened so I want to make sure that we're gonna be there so okay thank you very much John no thank you all thank you very much on short notice for getting me in and thanks for your understanding I appreciate it thank you welcome you stand open I yield thank you for my time the chairman ever thank you Eric and thank you John thank you Steve I don't have the agenda up in front of me but review meeting minutes of 8.3 I don't think I was here I make a motion to accept them the way they're written they're fine okay and I'll second it this is Steve seconds it so all in favor of the minutes speak your names Steve and unless anyone has anything else you have anything Meredith he's on here whose term is expiring I need to reach out to Ben because I haven't heard from him as to whether or not he's gonna apply for reappointment or not but since Seth is gonna be leaving us just a quick note if anybody is interested in being on the design review committee we are accepting applications because we will have at least one opening thanks for joining us for a couple of years right couple three years yes yeah thank you very much thank you very much we appreciate your expertise and all of your really helpful in questions and suggestions if you have any if you have any colleagues that might be interested let them know we'll do I think I appreciate it I have an architect on stuff it was great meeting you you as well thank you yes thank you very much see you around see you around town okay thank you right um yeah that's I mean I'll I'll be circulating stuff about the new regulations other than that I don't have anything else okay then do we hear a motion to adjourn Eric does I second it all in favor of adjourning speak your name Steve okay meeting is adjourned thank you all all right