 excited to be here with Ash Riley. We connected on Instagram because I saw some of her posts were kindred spirits critiquing the coaching industry and the marketing that happens there. And she saw it and she likes my content too. So I thought I would want to just have a conversation with Ash on one of the recent threads I saw in her private Facebook group. But first of all, let me just say hi to you, Ash. Thanks for doing this. Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah. So, well, Ash, is there anything you want to say about your kind of background or, you know, why are you critiquing the coaching and marketing industry? What's your experience with it? And what do you do for a living? Yeah, I actually, I consider myself an ethical marketing and trauma-informed marketing advocate. Nice. I work full-time in marketing and higher education. So, you know, this is just something that I do on the side for fun and occasionally people want to pay me for it and that's great. Yeah. And by the way, I just want to say at the time of this recording, your consulting rate is quite generous, quite, you know, I mean, for the kind of stuff you do and know. So those who are watching this, if you're interested, you can, you know, there's a link to blow to Ash's website and you can check that out, yeah. I was going to say it's kind of like a bizarre thing for the coaching industry, you know, everybody's like, what, you don't want to work from home full-time and have your own business and be an entrepreneur and it's like, no, I'm actually perfectly happy. Right. I was going to say, yeah, you know, it's so interesting. I was, before this business, I was in higher ed as well. A lot of people don't know, I was an admissions director for a graduate program. So we have that little bit of a connection. So, all right. So the thread that I wanted to bring up for this conversation, that when then, when that came from your private Facebook group, which I don't know if it's public, I could link it below too, I mean. It might be private, but there's a button on my Instagram bio. OK, so it's OK for people to request access to it. Yeah, yeah, cool. I'll link it below because I think it's, you know, this kind of conversation happens in there, which is you have, you were bringing up someone who had asked you, well, the other topic is what happens if we attract an audience who can't or won't pay for our coaching services? And there's, yeah, I'll just kind of let you start. And then I have some other thoughts on that too. But go ahead, maybe give us the context, yeah. Yeah, so somebody had tagged me in a comment on another coach's post. And that coach had posted something about what to do when a client signs up for your program and then won't make the payments. And, you know, people were talking about, oh, we can send them to small claims court. We can do things like that. And I was like, you know, first I would maybe ask yourself why you're attracting clients who can't afford to pay you to begin with. Or perhaps those clients are not receiving what they were expecting. Or perhaps your products just crap. It's harsh, but true. I mean, and when we say, what happened in this particular situation is this client had already experienced, I guess, some of the program, right? Yeah. So that's why the coach was so surprised. And first of all, it's already kind of unusual that you would allow someone into a program without payment of any kind. But I guess maybe that's some people's models. Like, oh, yeah, you have a free trial kind of thing. Well, no, what they do is they put you in a payment program. And so you are paying monthly. Oh, I see, I see. That of all up front. So then they pay the first payment, they get in the program, they decide they don't like it. I see. And then they want to back out. Because a lot of people have, they have no exit clauses and they don't give refunds. Yeah. So what other options are you giving them? Right. Then to just not pay you. Right. Yeah. You're holding them financially hostage. Right. Yeah. Yeah, no, I too have a month to month program. And when someone, when it's not right for them anymore, it's OK. Even though there was a commitment, I have two programs. One of them has a clear commitment of year. And the other one has a tentative commitment. But if it's not the right fit, it's not the right fit. But let's talk about this part. So the thread that I read in your private group, sometimes you just have to ask for feedback from your clients about what's not working for them about it. That was the first thing I said. It was like, have you ever thought about asking them why they are paying you? Right. Right. And it's just. Maybe ask them before you try to take the court. Yeah, right. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I can't even, I would never even go through the legal trouble. It's like, please have your money back or whatever. I know what you want to go through the legal trouble of. Or it's like, goodbye. Thanks for being, thanks for giving the try. But here's the thing, feedback is such a lot of people are delicate about it. Because, well, share the thing you shared in that thread. And let's talk about this. Why are people so many coaches are very reluctant? Or they either don't even think about asking for feedback? Like it's just not even doesn't even cross their mind. I am. I mean, those people who have worked to me know I'm obsessive about feedback. I probably asked for feedback too much. Literally every single thing you attend for me, every single group session, every single one-on-one session, at the very end, there's immediately, a program zoomed to do this, immediately asked, hey, quick session feedback, anything I could improve. Anything you want to say to help me. Or what did you take away? What can I improve? Very simple questions. But a lot of people don't. And I'm always, honestly, I'm always surprised. I think as an entrepreneur, maybe I have such an entrepreneurial mind that I'm like entrepreneurship is all about making something that others want. And it serves their wants and needs. And therefore, they're very happy to pay for it. And how do we know if something is something they want, unless we do market research, you ask them. But why do you think? I come from a tech startup background. So creating products and getting feedback and iterating is part of the process. It's a must. We're an agency before that. So it's like, A, B, test everything. That's just good marketing. That's good product design. And part of the way that I approach marketing, beyond just how do we be ethical, is I like to take a systems thinking approach to it. And for most people, when they think about systems thinking, it's like, OK, well, how does the piece that I'm working on fit into the bigger system of the company or whatever, I like to take it up to the global level and ask myself, how does this thing that we're creating or this system that we're working within fit within the social structures of the world? So a lot of what I do is apply sociological concepts to human behavior and then things that we do in terms of how we think, in terms of leadership, in terms of our strategies and approaches. And so something I've been playing with on my stories lately is this difference in mindset between collectivist cultures and individualist cultures. So America is a highly individualist culture. And the difference in the mindset between a collectivist and individualist culture is huge. There is there are scientific studies that show you that there is a direct correlation in cultural narcissism that correlates with individualistic societies. We are very much like self-oriented. And we think about self-first over others much of the time. And so honestly, I think that has a huge part to play in why a lot of coaches, particularly in America, don't think about asking their clients for feedback because it's all me, me, me, me, me. I created this. This is brilliant. If it's not right for you, well, then it's you. And then we have this aspect of personal branding where we have been conditioned to merge ourselves so deeply with our business that it becomes part of our identity. And when people are questioning your identity, that's threatening, right? Yeah. Wow. Okay, so just that point is really important. Like many of us, most of the people watching this are solopreneurs and a lot of coaches. Well, I talk about authentic business, right? Being a natural extension of the passion that we have and the experiences that we have and the skills. And yes, we tend to then go, we get so attached that this my business and me are one. Yeah. So it's like, how can I keep maintaining healthy boundaries between myself and my business? Where do I end? Where does my business begin? Where does my marketing end? And where do I begin? Because a lot of people have turned themselves into the product. Right, right. And when you are the product and people have a problem with the product, ouch. That's a good one, yes. Right, exactly. Because now they're questioning you as a person and whether you're not a good product, bad product, but good person, bad person or something like that, you know, worthwhile person or worthy person. It doesn't even have to necessarily be the, it doesn't have to be the client even making that association. It's just like, you're so heavily identified with your product that if anybody has a problem with it, they automatically have a problem with you. Yeah, yeah, right. And also, this relates to this attachment also means if we don't get the kind of response or engagement on our product or our content, it naturally automatically, oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, that's such a big, big reason why people don't create content or products or even the fact that they have a hard time, like I do this all day long. I talk to people who are like, I'm having a hard time like describing what I do, you know, like it's like, and I mean, I'm grateful for this conversation because it's making an aha moment for me about this separation between product and person because I, like I said, maybe because I grew up, I had a, I was gonna say I have a dad who's a businessman but I really learned a lot of entrepreneurship like myself in the, gonna go in the past 12, 13 years of experimenting and I have a very, yeah, like productizing my service and my program. It's like, I don't mind taking just one little aspect of what I like and do and turning that into a product whereas people are like, I must encompass everything that I am and it's like, no wonder you have a hard time describing what you do. I mean, how can you, how can you put all that, all of the whole of who you are into five words or something like that, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's, I know the elevator pitch is important and it has a use, but you can't pram all of it into one subject. Or by the way, even into a sales page. I mean, I haven't. So it's like, no, no, no, this is just one little aspect of what I do. But back to the original topic of attracting people that can't or won't pay for what we do. What do you say to someone who says, well, okay, let's, even before someone signs up for our coaching program and can't make the payments, let's just say prior to that, oh, what if you are having people who may even have commented on your social media posts or may even have messaged you, you know, privately for, hey, wanna pick your brain on this one thing and maybe you're very nice and you respond back to them. But then yet some point you're like, well, maybe they should become a client or you reach out to one of your commenters about, you know, a coaching program you have and the person says, oh, you know, I can't afford it. What is your, I don't know, guidance or the perspective on that? If somebody says they can't afford it, believe them. Believe them. Like, yeah, sometimes people will tell you non-confrontational people might give you an excuse for why they can't do the program. But they're telling you an excuse because they don't want to do the program. My perspective on sales is people have to be ready. They have to be willing and they have to be able. If they are not ready, willing or able, they are not going to buy a product. And you should not try to coerce them beyond being ready or beyond being able or beyond being willing to do the thing. And that's a huge aspect of trauma-informed marketing which is something else that I'm very passionate about is respecting people's boundaries. And there's so much financial abuse happening in the coaching industry. It's insane. I have people messaging me, telling me that they've spent upwards of $50,000 that- Yeah, no, I've recently had just had someone say that to me too. Can't get a refund. It was nothing the coach didn't even provide the things that they promised. And I've had people tell me they're in therapy now because of all of their experiences with all of this. They're in debt. I've seen people post about, I'm about to lose my house. What do I do with my two kids? And it's just like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the responses that people give these people is it also just makes you cringe because they're using neuro-linguistic programming to be like, what if you could imagine that wasn't the case? So you're going to magically manifest a house payment. And it's just like you're gaslighting these people out of their lived experience. Right, yeah. And that is harmful. Yeah. So a huge part of trauma-informed marketing is about understanding the ways that trauma impacts how people engage in any kind of relationship. How you engage in a personal relationship in an intimate relationship, you're going to have the same issues with a coach because it is also an intimate relationship. It's not as intimate, but it is a one-to-one relationship. Yes. And if you have people who are prone to fawning, have a hard time saying no, they're going to... They're going to... Number one, especially if you have like a huge platform. Right. And you are like a star in their eyes. Right. Those people are extremely susceptible to suggestion. Extremely suggestible. Yeah. And that's what happens a lot of times is you have these coaches, they create these huge personal brands with these lavish lifestyle branding. Right, yeah. And they love bomb all of their potential clients. Okay, describe that word because or yeah, explain that because it's so interesting. Maybe I'm just not up on the current lingo. I just not too long learned about that word, but I think some people probably don't even know what that means yet. So what does that mean? So looping this back to the high level of cultural narcissism. Okay. Love bombing is a tactic that is used by narcissistic abusers and cult leaders and people who recruit for cults where they shower you with approval and praise and affection. Yeah. To lure you in and to get you hooked. And then they slowly start to either pull away or chip away at your sense itself or abuse you in various other ways. Well, you know, what's interesting is that, oh my gosh, I, well, I mean, you could just say that that's some salespeople do that. Yeah, absolutely. They're trying to do that. Right. Every single cold DM you get starts with a flattering. Yes, yes. And what I got so annoyed at so early on, which is why I started critiquing my industry is they give you so much more affection and attention in the sales process than they do afterwards after you've already bought. Yeah. That's the whole purpose. The whole purpose is to draw you in. Right. And so they create these big personal brands with, you know, 100,000 followers and they basically build, it's called a parasocial relationship where the people who follow them don't actually know them, but they create this illusion of vulnerability. Right. And yes. Like intimacy that's not actually real. Yeah. As a way to endear people to them. Right. And then that way, when that person is ready to sign up for the program, they're very easily taken in. Yeah. Very easily. And once they get into the program, they're willing to do whatever you tell them and they're like, oh, you're so coachable, but really it's like you're so programmable. Right. Yeah. Because when you're in that state of mind where you're like this open exploratory kind of mindset, your critical thinking skills go pshh. Yeah. And it's very easy for people to be manipulated. Wow. And I mean, what you're talking about is on a spectrum. And I think every teacher, coach, program leader, mentor, guru has to be aware of this. And that's a big part of trauma marketing is understanding power dynamics. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Because yes, like sometimes I start, like I tell people, listen, like I have to constantly watch myself not to not start a cult because I've been part of cults before myself. And I mean, I've been part of a religious cult and I've been part of a business cult. I mean, there are different kinds of cults. And I'm very aware, like I'm almost, I have to admit I sometimes overcompensate on either self-deprecation or like making a fool of myself because I don't want people. To make yourself feel human. I don't want people to guruize me, you know? And sometimes, I mean, this conversation is very enlightening because I'm like, sometimes I'm surprised how, like sometimes I teach a concept almost to like see what kind of pushback I get because I want pushback. I want people to say, well, but what about this? But it doesn't work in that situation. I want that because like I said, I'm assessed I'm assessed our feedback and I want people to go to challenge me so we can find a more whole truth together, you know? And sometimes I'm surprised when I don't get that pushback and people go, oh yeah, that's so brilliant. Oh, it's everything you say is amazing. And I'm like- I used to do just like little social experiments. There is, so I had a, before I was doing the marketing stuff I had this a spirituality blog and there's this website it's called the New Age Bullshit Generator. And literally it's just like a random program that randomly comes up with these like very spiritual sounding paragraphs that are just complete and total crap. And I posted one to my like brand account just to see how many people would like and share it. And it was scary. Oh my gosh. So that's how you really start to understand like the dynamics of crowd psychology and- Right, yeah. And that's another reason that I kind of do what I do is because marketing is founded on this stuff. Edward Bernays is the nephew of Sigmund Freud and he took crowd psychology and applied it to business and marketing and public relations. Prior to that, his job was to do war propaganda. Oh my gosh. Wow, yeah. Like this is the foundation of marketing and advertising is manipulation. Yes. And so for us to be able to do this ethically we have to go all the way back. Yeah. To what master is this serving and what is wrong with how it's being done. Right. I have an e-book that I just put together with like kind of just like a running list of all these different kinds of like psychological manipulations that are used in marketing but the intro kind of give this history of marketing advertising with some really, really telling quotes. And the first one is about Edward Bernays and sort of like his view of humans being very, very shepherdable. And the other one is this quote from a guy who worked for Lehman Brothers back in the 20s talking about how they need to train Americans into a desires culture, not a needs culture. Wow. They need to be trained to want something new almost as soon as they've already bought it. Right. In order to drive capitalism. And it's done very, very well for America. It's done very, very well. Yeah. It's amazing that, well, you know, this is the stuff that should be taught in schools. Yeah. From the very beginning. And I learned bits and pieces of this in school but it was never, it was never presented in this way. No. It was always a positive twist. Yeah. Yeah. And, or it's just not applied enough. There's not enough examples of it so that we can actually put it on with that, you know, put those lenses on and see, oh, okay. And the thing about the power dynamics, so, so interesting too. There is zero understanding about that among most Instagram influencers. Oh yeah. I mean, all of this stuff, which is, and yeah, like this needs to be said so often, you know. And it's so funny because I feel like I, I'm glad you've studied this stuff because I feel like I've kind of come to this out of my own sense of like conscience. Like, something's not right here, you know? Yeah. So, my degree is in marketing. Well, my degree is in journalism but I, where I went to school, we had advertising was in the journalism school. Right. So it was like an emphasis. Yes. So we learned about EverBurnays in my PR class. We learned about the whole like needs, desires thing in consumer behavior. So I've had that foundation, but, you know, they don't, they don't teach it in an anti-capitalist framework. So I had to, you know, sort of like come to that realization on my own because America is never gonna teach you anything anti-capitalist. Yeah. Yeah. That goes directly against our values. Yes. Right. Right. If you would agree, branding also is what kind of brought me here too because understanding branding is like learning your values and building out your messaging around that. Well, we have cultural values too, not just personal values. And a lot of our personal values are entwined with our cultural values. So where do our cultural values come from? Well, they come from colonialism. They come from white supremacy. Yeah. They come from individualism. Yeah. They come from some not great places. You know, this is personally applicable to me right now because I, I recently launched a group program and I was relaunching the program because I was basically rebooting it for the current students to like they were overwhelmed and they wanted to just revisit the lessons and of getting even more material. So I'm like, let me, let me, let's just reboot the whole thing and let's revisit each of the core lessons and be more mindful about applying things. And I said, well, might as well let a few more people into the program. And so it was a very casual thing. And I'm like, oh, sure, I'm relaunching it now. And I was like, great, if 10 more people join, that's great. And at this point, there's 70 more people who joined. And I'm like, I see this dynamic within myself, like I should stop. I should, I should stop because I should take off the ability to join the program because, you know, with each additional person, that means less time and Q and A for everybody. And so, but it's so- I think that's important. So that's an important point too in terms of trauma-informed marketing because a lot of people think about trauma-informed. Oh, you wanna just be tending to the person, but it's also about tending to your needs. Right. Because if you are stretching yourself too thin, you're not gonna be able to show up for those people. Oh my gosh. And it's like, what's assumed, you know? It's like, if I had a normal marketing coach, they'd be like, great, open it up more and do another launch, tell people. And it's like, well, at some point, it becomes bad customer service. Every, everything that marketing does is quantity over quality. Oh yeah. Because the intention is to make more money. Yeah. Right. Of course you wouldn't make more money. And of course you charge more. And actually, it's like I came to this realization sometime ago. I'm like, why isn't, like, I want to take less money. Like, I'm actually conscious and my conscience is saying, how much money are you taking from people? And it's like, I'm like, because there's that pressure as our audience grows, there's the pressure to charge more and have even more people sign up for stuff. I'm like, I want to take less money from people. And I have always, I have always looked at, so that's one strategy, cap it. But like, I have always kind of looked at, I look at my strategy for all this is, how do I manage growth? Not how do I force growth? Right. Like, grow it organically. Yes, yes. And learn how to manage that growth as opposed to strategically trying to grow to an overnight. Oh yeah, right. So it's like, okay, if I get to a point where I have too many people signing up and I can't handle all of them, if I raise my prices, fewer people are gonna sign up. Yes, exactly. That's one management strategy. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But of course the other management strategy is to just put a cap on it. Just put a cap on it, exactly. No, I agree with, it's like, if we are raising our rates, it also means we are raising the stakes for us in terms of providing value to them in a way that they're like, oh wow, what a great deal. This is still a great deal. You mean you can't just charge your work? No, I don't have to hold their topic, right? My gosh, well, I just, I mean, we could talk about all kinds of stuff and I realize our time is already up. Folks, you can get a lot more of this kind of conversation, this very enlightening deconstructing of marketing and of the coaching industry and of business and then finding a way that's really compassionate and I think truly sustainable and sustainable for our own business, our own way of adding value in an authentic way to our customers and our clients and therefore feeling really good about what we're doing in our work and also sustainable for the people that we're serving. So take a look at the links below here to Ash's Instagram and website and I think you'll get a lot out of what she's providing. So thank you so much Ash for what you do and the way that you do it. Yeah, thanks for having me.