 Welcome to our deep dive into preprints and OA or open access. I'm Brian Cook, Stacey. I assume you're not there yet, but when you are, let me know. And Stacey Shaw from Worcestershire Polytechnic Institute. I'm a professor at University of Virginia. My background is special education. But I've become very interested in open science and in particular done some work and used preprints quite a few times and so I have some background in them, but I think we're all kind of learning this and figuring it out. We'll go over open access and then talk about preprints, which is a form of open access and I think one that we really strongly recommend. So open access. The rationale for open access is to make your work open and available to the public. One of the panelists, I forget who maybe I think Pam this morning talked about, you know, in education are what we do is to improve educational practice and the impact of our work depends on getting it not just to other people in the research community, but to other people including educators and administrators and parents and policymakers and very often they simply can't access the work that we've done, even at a major research university like UVA, there's still tons of stuff I can't access. And it's just a shame and the publishing model is such that we do this work, we even review the work with edgy researchers are editors of the journals and and yet the universities have to pay huge amounts of money to provide access to the work that we've done and reviewed and edited in the in the process making publishers millions and millions of dollars and it's not it's behind a paywall it's not available to the public that that it should be available to open access helps promote scientific literacy with with that research out there. And just in terms of ethical dissemination it just makes sense to to make our work broadly accessible and some of the point I just made about researchers don't get paid to publish reviewers don't get paid to review. So, no, we're just making the publishers money here. And it doubles different types of open access. So, gold AERA open. I think it's a couple years old now, but it's a relatively new journal that's an example of a gold journal. Everything in that journal is is open if you publish in the journal, it is open access and it's licensed is open access Gold journals, most not all gold journals, but most gold journals and probably the bigger, more prominent gold journals that you may be aware of, like AERA open. Authors have to pay what they call an APC or an article processing charge. So, in other words, the journal has to cover operating costs. Many of the open journals are not necessarily run through a professional organization but are run by publishers and they still want to make some money off of this. APCs vary. A lot of journals including AERA open have a sliding scale for fees, where it is less for example for a doctoral student or early career researcher. And so some of it depends and it varies by journal. They tend to run 25, 2500 to 3000 US dollars, but but there's a great deal of variability. So it is not cheap to publish in these journals with APCs. Green is self archival and probably the best example of green OA is the preprints. And so this is, it is typically, you can self archive work that you've written. It's usually a PDF of a Word document and it is before it has been reviewed, before you've gotten feedback. It's not the version, the PDF of the journal formatted manuscript, but instead a PDF of that Word document. And you for in most cases, you can post that on a personal website on an institutional repository and on a preprint repository, which we'll talk more about bronze occurs. This is most of our most of the big journals in the field now have gone. Oh, I'm getting hyper and bronze confused for a second. Bronze is where a journal or publisher chooses to make something open and they can do this and they do it all the time when sometimes almost seemingly by fiat, but sometimes it's strategic. And they'll say, Oh, here's a special issue that we really want to push. Let's make the lead article open. And so it becomes open, but with bronze, it's not licensed as OA and so they can stop it from being open access at any point and usually do it some point. And because it's not licensed as away their limitations on what others can do in terms of them sharing it. So bronze is an option we see more and more and it's actually the most common type of open access publishing currently. And hybrid is where it's in a traditional journal where most of the work is closed and behind a paywall, but authors have the option to pay an APC and make their specific article open. Most of the journals that are published by major publishers have hybrid options and down there most scholarship remains closed and it's just behind the paywall. Hey, Brian, I just want to chime in really quickly. I'm so sorry I'm late. I'm glad that this unconference has embraced the chaos because I got totally side with the conversation and lost track of time. Hi everyone, I'm Stacy Brian. Thank you for starting without me. I just want to mention really quickly. I'll monitor chat. So, that advanced says that there is another term out there, the diamond open access and so this is defined as this non commercial academic led open license away and this model is broadly used in the so called global south and in many universities in Europe to. So, do you know about that can you talk about that a little bit. Me, no. I've heard the term a little bit around, but I don't know if anyone else has heard of this term before but I think I've heard of it but it's not as common as these other ones that Brian has been talking about. The person I'm sorry I forget the name that you mentioned the whoever made the comment you want to share a little bit about diamond open access. Sure. Thank you. Yeah, well I think this this term is not, you know, as probably use as the gold open access or green, but it is very common the model is very common so I'm calling, you know, on behalf of the Latin American model because actually I'm from Mexico and in Latin it's very common to use this model which means that these journals they don't charge any APC because the journals are funded by universities and or governments right so there's no, you know, the model is absolutely not known for profit. And it's not just used in in Latin America also in Asia and in Africa to and in in many institutions in in Europe, you know, maybe smaller big universities that run these journals or books, but they don't have the purpose of making profits from these, and then the administration and all the operations of the they run by, by the faculty. Right, so this is kind of, I think it's a model that it's not very well known, but I think we should promote these two because this idea of APCs, or sorry, open access linked to an APC is actually very polemical. And it is, you know, it's it is costing a lot of discussions on what we're going to do now in terms of financing the publications. Yeah, very good and so we'll talk about preprints which would be another option to avoid APCs but this diamond model which is you say it now it does ring a bell to me. It makes a ton of sense in that it is basically the gold publishing option minus the APC or without the APC. And it sounds like taking the, the, the journal or the publishing process out of the hands of the for profit publishers and putting it into nonprofit universities which I think holds just makes a lot of sense. I don't know if it would be called diamond publishing diamond away exactly, but there are a number of gold journals that don't charge an APC and in my little field of special education. These are more small professional organizations that have their that have a journal, but they're really kind of run off the backs of the members and that there's not a lot of cost in them. And they're not being done for a profit so they're almost gold open access by default, because they don't, they don't charge anything they're very low overhead. It's almost just like posting things on a, on a website, which isn't that much different than what most journals are actually, but but they do it, not through a university, but just through a small professional organization. Yeah, and if I can just add something else very quickly, is that the DOEJ the directory of open access journals in their database they have this cost the APCs. So you can, you can see and look for a journal there that charts or not doesn't charge any APC so I think it's very useful to have this information just in one database. So I think it's a good idea to, yeah, and, yeah, and because you know sometimes I just a couple of days ago I saw that plus one this big journal that is super high quality and prestigious charges like one 1000 and 600 or or for medicine your articles is 4000 right so it's I think we should promote also the other known APC I think it is. Yes, agree 100%. I think it's wasn't it nature that just came out with their hybrid option, and you see is I forget the figure but just $9,000. Shockingly. No, it's ridiculous. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, it's super high. I'm looking at chat asking about this so Brian do you mind actually going to the next slide where we talk about this and I'm happy to just take over the slide so yes, actually go back one. All the way to the doj. Yes, so if you want to find open access journals, go to doj.org so this is the directory of open access journals. This, this might be a little bit of an old screenshot but basically you can type in the name or like just a key term and and find journals and look at what they charge. You can put their bronze at their hybrid and this is a really great way for you to sort of identify journals where you could publish your work that would be open access. Yeah, and as Ivan said like you could also look at the cost of the article processing charge so this is a really good sort of like, first, first step, looking at where you could publish but sometimes this isn't always an option right sometimes you can go for that flagship journal, or sometimes you know maybe there isn't really anything there for you so Brian do you mind going to the next slide please. So a lot of people ask like is there funding for open access author fees those APC charges, and usually the answer is, if you if you do have them, they're either through your, your university or through grants that you have. Not many of these of us have these grants or are part of these universities, especially nowadays with the budgets being very tight. So there are a couple of ways you can sort of work around this to make your work more open access even if you have to publish it in a journal that has a paywall. Brian do you mind going to the next slide. So yes workarounds. So one thing I usually suggest to people is to put your work if you publish it in a journal on research gates so, for example, one time I put up I put up an article there, I published in like educational psychologist, and they were like hey, you get 50 free copies to send to all your friends and I'm like well I don't have 50 friends obviously like this is this is just weird right like I have 50 free copies like what does this mean. So what I did was I put it on research gate. And what people can do is when they search for that piece of work or search for those key terms they could find it on research gate and request request that you give them a copy of it. And so technically you have 50 free articles you can upload it privately and just shoot them off the email basically through research gates it's a really nice way to sort of interact between that. Helen says the problem with research gate is that is only available to those with.edu email address yeah so that is definitely a barrier I think this is where preprints could come in but if this is an option for you you can definitely use research gate to share privately within our community right so it's a really easy way to like request, you can also just email the author people don't know this though so sometimes if you, if people don't know to email you they might be able to still find you on research game and request it. So yeah you can definitely add as full text you might go in the next slide yeah. Another thing you can do, and we're starting to get to the pre print land right is check out the Sherpa Romeo license check so if you just Google Sherpa Romeo. It's just really awesome website where you can type in the journal name into the actual website. And go to the next slide if you don't mind Brian. So you'll do that. And what you'll see is all of their licensing right what you can do with what so I typed in. I think this is educational psychologist again. And it tells me what I can do with the published version of my article the accepted version of my article. I think there's two different paths for that and the submitted versions is the submitted is the manuscript I've written and submitted to write there's no refereeing there's no peer review changes or anything like that. And then what you can do was sort of the other stages of the manuscript, you go one more slide ahead Brian I think I have here. So for this one for the accepted version so I've submitted my article they've given me edits to make I've made those edits. And with that I can just look at this website and know what I can do so I see here immediately there's an 18 month embargo so I'm not supposed to publish or post this on Research Gate, or any of these repositories for at least 18 months. Not all journals are like this some of them are like go for it right so you can just do that immediately but this is sort of where you can check what you can do with what journal. And then they'll say what the conditions are. So basically if you're not really sure where to start with your journal, go ahead and go to Sherpa Romeo, and then just look and see sort of what their policies are. This is also how you can choose what journal you want to submit to right so if you have two that you're like, I don't really know which one. Check out what you can do with your pre prints your post prints the submitted versions of those manuscripts, and maybe one is a lot more open to the idea of open access, putting it on Research Gate that sort of thing, you can go ahead and maybe pick that one instead. Chime in Stacy. Yeah, I know. I think especially for some of the smaller journals they might not be on Sherpa Romeo, and there's sometimes a lag between when Sherpa Romeo, the policies if a journal changes their policies they might not be immediately reflected, especially if a journal is published by one of the bigger publishers, they're doing a better and better job about putting this information on their website so looking at the journal website, and or the publisher website is also another source. And if you just not sure, shoot an email off to the editor and they should be able to answer these questions. And just one question I had Stacy for you. So this embargo here. So this embargo for the publisher formatted of sharing the publisher version format, correct. And so it, and so we'll talk about with pre prints. Typically you can share the author formatted version before changes were made. As a result of peer review. Yes, you can self archive that to green open access publishing. Yeah, so if you go back to one slide they have the different categories and so they, they term them published version which is like the publishers PDF right it's the one that's fancy and format and all that sort of stuff. Then there's the two different versions of the accepted one I'm actually not sure at the top of my head what this is so you'd have to just look at it and read it carefully. And that submitted version is considered the pre print, but I think after these slides Brian you dive right into pre print so maybe anyone has any questions. Helen says the administrators of Sherpa Romeo are quick to edit if you contact them. Okay cool so if you find a discrepancy you can definitely let them know funding providers. So the author formatted version after the Polish version has been released or does it have to go up in advance, you can publish a pre print anytime you want and we'll talk about that. Yeah. And that is essentially because that's before you, you have the copyright for that author formatted version that that's your work. And so you can do what you want with it. If you submit you can do what you want with it 10 years after it's been published or. Yeah. Yeah. Okay so pre prints. I think we're doing okay on time here but I have a lot of questions at the end. Yeah, yeah and so we'll want to have time to talk. So some terminology. I think that's in two different ways or at least that's how I find it as kind of a common generic term that is about a an author formatted print, an author formatted version of a paper. Sometimes that's just generically referred to as pre print. But I'll try to at least and the rest of this be more specific and so a pre print is that author formatted paper usually a PDF of your word document. That is before edits have been made reflecting peer review from submission to a journal. So this is your work. You can pretty much do what you want with it. Sometimes it's used more generically to refer to pre prints and post prints, but pre print before edits from the peer review process post print, after edits have been made reflecting the peer review process from submission to a journal. And I, I've seen some people moving more towards print, which refers to pre prints and post prints so just these self archived publicly available versions of manuscripts, regardless of whether it was before after edits from peer review have been made sometimes are more generically referred to as prints. So why do we do this we've talked about a number of these already but I think the main one is just that we can provide free and open access and that's going to increase the impact of our work by making it available to a much greater audience at no cost. In fact, I think reflective of that increased impact is there's some research showing that pre printed articles are associated with higher citation rates so they're as much as I think most of us are thinking about this in a more altruistic sense of democratizing access to to scholarship and research. There's also a kind of personal benefit to the researchers around higher citation rates, it can help public combat publication bias in that you're having trouble getting a paper with no results published, or a paper that doesn't find particularly compelling for whatever reason, put it out there as a, as a pre printer as a print. And then it is available to be included in synthesis and meta analysis and helps combat that that publication bias. And so that relates to the next point makes research available more quickly there's been a lot of literature in the last months, less in education, although some, but in other fields pre prints have really gotten on the map with the pandemic. And instead of waiting months potentially years to go through the peer review process and multiple rounds of review at one or potentially two or three different journals before work is published. Pre printing, it is, as soon as you write it up, it's out there. Well, usually it takes a day or so. There's usually some kind of very slight vetting process to make sure that the content is relevant and you're not just putting an ad out there. Pre prints, it's out there. Boom. And so it just cuts down on the time and makes research available really quickly which, in a lot of cases is really important. If you do a pre print, and it's really a pre print before you submit it allows you to try to solicit and get feedback from the research community before you submit to a journal. Again, at least in education. This is in its infancy there's not a ton of feedback being provided but in the ideal print community, we would have a robust community of people contributing feedback to work and I think this would be a great area for those of you with students to get doctoral students used to reviewing papers they can comment on and provide feedback to pre prints and it could be a nice feedback community. You can also there are no page limits in in at least that I'm aware of on any print archive. And so you can include extended information on the methods or accessible summaries for practitioner audiences. For example, you can put those they may not get published but these could be important pieces of information. And those can be provided on print archives and provides a way for you to empty your file drawer again related to this combating public publication bias is, I think all of us have have work on that we've just never published for one reason or another. And in I, I've thought about trying to organize something in education but in different communities. They have kind of empty the file drawer initiatives and just encouraging everyone to go back and try to get all those papers that you've never published, get them out there. They should be out there that that research has been done. And for whatever reason, it hasn't been published, but it should be out there and accessible to research consumers and to synthesize users of the research base. Yeah, and I think a great illustration of this is this tweet I've popped in here from Hillary Barth, who says when you posted an empirical report on a preprint journal with no intention to submit it to a journal for peer review. What's it called not really a preprint has the term been developed yet to signal that this paper is a terminal preprint, and I just really love this idea sort of what Brian's talking about which is, yeah, we all the studies that just fell to the back burner are no longer relevant maybe it's not, you know, significant enough to get published. But if you make it into like this terminal preprint right you're never ever going to submit it. At least it's sitting somewhere where someone can search for it and not do that idea right so they have. This is going to help with meta analysis, trying to figure out you know, who's run the studies not only that have been published on the subject and found but what about the people who didn't and including that meta analysis. But yeah just making sure that that work sees the light of day because we really don't want to waste our participants time or students time, our own time and so I think this is a really love the idea maybe there's like spring cleaning right for education researchers which is like, get that file drawer out maybe submit one or two a year if you can and just make sure it sees the light of day. Yeah, yeah we'll talk about I see the chat asking about preprint servers. We'll talk about that in a sec. But I also wanted to mention really quickly. Some people fear the preprint ahead of publishing but there's also these new models coming out. Like elive just announced a preprint first publishing model so you cannot publish in their journal until you've posted a preprint and they did this because they surveyed their, their authors and like 80% of them or something like that. Said that they were using preprints and they were like this is cool you're getting feedback from the field ahead of time like this makes sense for us and so now some of these journals are starting to embrace these preprints so much that it becomes a part of their models I think this is maybe where things are going to start turning. So, I feel very excited by this but again like we know not everyone is there. Yeah. That's really cool Stacy. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Very quickly. This is it's a couple of years old now but these are average of one for citations and they looked at these different models. So close model point nine. So close model which is primarily the preprints is actually the highest with an average of 33% more citations that than the average paper, and this, it may be due to some degree of from it's preprinted more people have access to it. So, preprints, I am pretty consistently pleasantly surprised. Wow, I'm surprised that many people are downloading it. There is a, there is a market out there of people who can't access publications behind paywalls, and I think, providing them access to these through through preprints does a great service. I think some of this, though, is likely due to people are pre printing their papers that they're most excited about that may be more apt to get citations anyway, and I think that's probably the same for the bronze, the higher rate of the bronze away model, where some of that is what's getting more citations because it's it's more available to folks, but some of that is they're probably the journals are choosing and being selective over which papers that they choose to be bronze. The gold being lower is very interesting. And in some ways think wow so the gold open access journals aren't getting cited a lot. I don't want to publish my paper in a gold access journal. I think in the authors hypothesize that this may be due to what I mentioned earlier that a lot of very small journals are kind of gold by default because they just have very low overhead. It's very small journal of a professional organization, and they just aren't getting those papers don't tend to get a lot of citations just because they're very specific to a small little field and in a smaller journals so that's probably what's behind the lower citation rate of gold journals. I don't want to under emphasize as much as I'm a big fan and very excited about pre prints, probably the big limitation of pre prints is that they're not peer reviewed. I can post any crappy thing that I've ever thought on as a pre print. And on one hand, that's a limitation. And on another hand, it is kind of freeing in some way there's not this veneer of, Oh, it's been peer reviewed so we know it's true. I mean, you look at the growing retraction rate and the different problems with papers that have been published in peer reviewed journals. We know peer review is wonderful, but it is not a guarantee that every paper is perfectly valid that that's been peer reviewed. Pre prints, it's just a different world where the stuff hasn't been peer reviewed very often. I do think it's important when being a consumer of pre prints to to recognize that some of these really are pre prints that that haven't haven't gone to be peer reviewed and published. Many of the pre prints that are available have been published and authors are strongly encouraged to go back and update pre prints with information and a corresponding DOI of digital object identifier. If and when a pre print gets probably modified and change a little bit through the peer review process but ultimately gets published. And so I haven't seen any litter. Now I have seen something that I'm going to forget numbers off the top of my head. I think there is one study out on it. There is a significant number of pre prints actually correspond to work that is eventually peer reviewed and published so in some ways it's a misnomer to say that pre prints aren't peer reviewed many of them end up getting peer reviewed but there's no guarantee of that and there is a caveat approach that one has to take with pre prints and be a very critical skeptical research consumer when you're looking at pre prints because a lot of it hasn't been peer reviewed. Can I add something to that Brian. Yeah, yeah. There's another interesting argument here is the biggest one is like pre prints are peer reviewed so like their garbage or whatever right, but we also to remember like our conference presentations often aren't peer reviewed our posters aren't peer reviewed Ted talks at the time are not peer reviewed. So, you know, this is not a problem that's unique to pre prints. Yes, they carry this problem and like Brian's talking about a lot of them will become peer reviewed at some point but I just want to remember that like peer reviewed isn't like the standard every single thing of every single type of scientific dissemination and so yes it has this problem but also like this problem exists in other spaces that's not totally new. I'm going to try to speed myself up a little bit here so journal policies, be aware. A doctoral student of mine and I just we have a paper in press looking at in our field of special education journal policies regarding pre prints, and there are two or three of them that say that they won't accept a paper if it's been pre printed. I think this is going as pre prints continue to grow in popularity. I think these the number of journals that have policies prohibiting the submission of pre prints will decrease. That's the journals prerogative I get if they feel for whatever reason and I guess it's just they feel like that's going to be competing with them for citations and for readership and why would someone pay to access the journal if it's available as a pre print. Most journals this hasn't been an issue but I was going to say yeah right so they want to make money is a lot of the argument is just available for free and we would argue that you know scientific dissemination is more important the profits. But yeah I mean so what you should do in that case right is look up Sherpa Romeo or shoot the editor and email saying hey if I pre print is this going to be a problem and they should be able to tell you right. The relatively small number of journals that have this policy but know that some of it that there are a few need to be careful. Yeah. And the policies aren't always clear so exactly when in doubt shoot the editor and email and say something that that I've thought about with the timing of my pre prints is that especially when I write in within my little field of special education writing an open act writing a piece especially an open science. I kind of haven't this. There's not a there's not an infinite number of reviewers that it might go out to us is probably within this small group. If I if I post a pre print and tweet it. I don't worry that a lot of my potential pool of reviewers are now aware of the that print and and the blind review is compromised. And so sometimes when I write something that is a little in a niche where I'm worried about it. A couple times I pre printed it and not tweeted it until later. And a couple times I've just not pre printed it until a little later. Personally, I don't know I think. Yeah, if you're in that niche area and you're not sure if there's going to be any reviewers who won't be able to figure out who you are they find a pre print or whatever just save that pre print and then until after you can post it then just post it to make it more open access didn't really act as a pre print in the beginning but you're still helping to make your work more accessible. Right. I do think if someone really wants to find out who that there is an argument we shouldn't pre print because then people are when they read something they can search the internet and find the pre print and find out who you are. They can probably do that for most work that's out there already. I don't think pre prints. I think there, there is that issue but but it's not an issue unique to pre prints at all. This is just something real quick on the growth of pre prints it's in a different field. It's not a biomedical pre prints but you can just see in the last few years. This is really taking off education is probably a little late to the game, but it is, it is starting and so a lot of the rest of this I'll talk just briefly here we'll finish up on ed archive which is a relatively new pre print archive or repository developed that specific to the edge for education research. There are multi disciplinary pre print sometimes they're called pre print servers pre print archives pre print or print repositories I'll call them print repositories here. There are some general ones. There are some domain specific ones. There are some bio archive, one in psychology bio archive and biology open science framework hosts 20 some different domain specific repositories open science framework is the, the web arm of Center for open science. There are, and someone got some have some cool names and logos. And so there was a group of us a couple of years ago and said we should have one of these in education. And so we've started ed archive. Don't know if I love our, our logo but it's, it's, it's, it's a start. It reminds me like Raven claw, like from Harry Potter. Yeah, I don't, I don't know how we came upon that actually. I think there's some benefits and largely to raise awareness and submission and use of pre prints without having something specific to education would be helpful, rather than kind of the education work getting lost in these other fields or these general archives. So, we launched it late 2019. We have 661 pre prints posted as of a few days ago if I read my numbers correctly with it follows the same structure as all of the print repositories under OSF there's just eight different steps that it's, I can do it and I'm not good at this stuff and you know, if I can do it, you can do it. You have to create an account on OSF. First, submit a pre print. You upload the file. Author assertions you indicate whether a data is publicly available whether there's a pre registration. I think you can link to those if it is. Author assertions, which we can talk a little bit about more about that but there's different licenses. They recommend the CC by attribution, which means anyone can reuse your work as long as they attribute it. So, we just signed a DOI. Oh, and it's asked is there a DOI associated with a publication, and then the DOI is actually become linked. And so citations for the pre print actually get credited or associated with citations to the article, you put in key words and abstract, put a discipline label authors and what's the scope of interest statement. I think so one question and chat amongst some other interesting conversation is like talking about the licenses and that's definitely where I get stuck I'm like I don't know anything about licenses like what the heck am I supposed to do. At least I know on OSF they've tried to make it very easy to look at the different licenses so I know at least when you pre register. So what type of license do you want and there's like a little icon you can click and it opens up into this big broad thing talking about what these licenses mean which are the most common what you get for what. So you can definitely check out those resources. But yeah, overall like licenses like I don't know Brian if you're an expert I'm definitely not but usually I just look at the guidance that's provided on the website and just go for like the creative common ones usually. I know the creative common ones pretty well and they're. I think there's six different options and the two most popular doesn't mean that they're right, or the right ones but the two most popular or the CCB why which means basically anybody can do whatever they want with it. And as long as they attribute the source right they say where they got it from CCB why NC is a derivation of that where anyone can use it as long as it's used non commercially is the NC. And so I actually I think I've done either CCB why or CCB why NC, not for any particular reason it's just kind of what mood I'm in. And some for some things I don't want someone else to make money off this and so CCB why NC. And that means anyone can use it as long as they attribute it outside of for commercial, it has to be a non commercial venture. So we got some good links in the chat thank you everyone for plopping and Creative Commons license, more information about that but we also have a question which is just to hear about our opinion about how institutions of higher ed view pre prints, especially for early career researchers who are seeking to attain academic positions. So while you think about that Brian I can just come in real quick so I graduated at the beginning of quarantine with my PhD and I just started my assistant professorship. Now so it's been like really weird very fast, but what I ended up doing before I went on the job market as I took all of the work that was sort of sitting around waiting to be pure viewed, and I made them into pre prints, and I put them on my website that was when people were searching for me, and they wanted to see what I published, my work was being they could read about it right so it wasn't an official pre branches, I wasn't too sure about it back then and my life is chaos, but I definitely was able to put it on my website. And I use something called pretty pre prints which is by Brenton Wernick. You could literally Google pretty pre prints it'll show up on the OSF page where you can format them. Yeah, we have a slide at the very end where here they are so you can format them to look official I even fooled myself into thinking my pre print was my actual published PDF. But it makes it look a little bit official, you can put it on your website just to show that yours, you're sort of have momentum even if things have been held up in the publishing. But an interesting question along that is like yeah how do higher institutions view pre prints, I think we're still trying to figure it out but Brian maybe you have some ideas. I think they're still trying to figure it out that this isn't really on the radar for like 10 year promotion committees very very much they just don't know what to make of it and I'm not sure they should be it. It is something that anybody can post almost anything as a pre print so I'm. It's, I think it's, it looks good I think there is a greater awareness of the benefits of doing this. I don't think it's going to take the place anytime soon and maybe shouldn't have a peer reviewed article. What it does do is light like Stacy was saying, if you're going out in the job market, and rather than just having your CV where you have six things is submitted, or maybe that's a little ambitious, but you've got a few things listed as submitted or under review. But what's that mean exactly here, you have a pre print where you can put a link in and people can go actually read the document. Yeah, especially it's your newest work right and you're phasing out old stuff or something like that and you want them to have a well represented view of sort of what you're doing now because it could take years to publish something right. I personally struggle with, I don't want to look like I'm patting my CV, and so I won't list pre prints on my CV, but I feel like in a way I should. I don't have good answers to that I think it's something that is kind of evolving how we, how we deal with that. In terms of the question of like, should I put it on my CV right like, there's some question about that I think the pre prints in the same sort of boat. That's fine. That's not a terribly satisfying answer, but I don't think you only have two publications but I've got 20 pre prints I don't think that's going to get you 10 year. I think there is some level of growing recognition, at least in some places that, well that's, that's wonderful that you're making your work available freely, openly accessible to a variety of stakeholders and that's how I would kind of frame it, not that I would do this instead of having a body of peer reviewed research and scholarship, but instead adding to it by making it more generally accessible by pre printing it. And so this is that at archive and just click on I'm going to go through this briefly, but you need to open an account here the sign up button, you do submit a pre print here to submit. So just a screenshot of the the end of the process where you for this one. I said I didn't have a conflict of interest, and there's an option to include supplemental materials, and then at the end you just click submit pre print and it is a fairly straightforward process. So assuming pre prints, you can search, you can put in your own search terms they have subject terms you can search by the at our, and any of the most of the larger print repositories assigned do is so they're all searchable and they'll come up in Google Scholar. Read and comment on manuscripts using they have a new tool on the OSF body of print repositories hypothesis. And so you can actually make little notes as you go and the ideas eventually that, even though it's not peer reviewed to be posted that that we would we develop a community that that comments on each other's works, and that will help serve as kind of a form of peer review, and you can always download manuscripts. I'm not going to go over this could run out of time, but I just did a search a what my doctoral student of mine. These are the different some of the subject terms that you can browse by. And so the, I was looking for my doc student posted as a pre print this flow chart about how to post a pre print this little I think here's how I could comment on it using hypothesis. I'm a good advisor so I gave a plaudit to it endorsing this work. I should have put in a new screenshot this is a month sold now I'm sure it has many more downloads now. It displays an abstract the DOI, the license so he chose the CCB why so you can use this and profit off it if you'd like a disciplinary term there tags that that he entered, and then citations, a PA citations. Interestingly, one thing to point out here is this is version to so there was something on it. Maybe I told him this is miss spelled or I don't know I forget what happened but he, you can post different versions of it. And so this will tell you it was originally submitted on April 30, but then it was updated on May 7 with this second version. And so it displays the most recent version but if you want to go back you can download, you can look at and download previous versions as well. And I just put a link if you want to download this it actually is I think a nice flow charts there's just a link to the flow chart and I'm not going to go over it now we don't have the time. And so this is what we talked about. Good questions discussion. Thanks very much. Some references. I hyperlinked the stuff in my slides, and we wanted to just make sure we mentioned pretty pre prints which we already have this, the, how much the pandemic has put the pre prints on on the map in in many ways. Then some horror stories. I had this in case anyone was like, but what about the horror stories. Yes, sometimes people put things on their journals website that's like totally cool if you use pre prints and then people actually pre print and then they apply, or they submit and then like editors are like, oh my God, why did you do that and then people freak out so we're still in that transition phase right we're trying to figure out like how to incorporate this into our practice I think the kings are still being worked out. So for you, I think most people tend to have a pretty good experience although I do want you to be aware that there are some horror stories out there, but they exist. Hopefully you can just reach out to the editor had a time just make sure it's kosher before you go forward, and then pre print your work. And then again, I normally how I use pre prints is I just do it after the things published that way people can find it easier. So it helps open access. My goal moving forward is to try and pre print using the archive more, but definitely like if you're just getting started and you're not comfortable yet. Use those things as the last step of your publishing to make it more open access. Does anyone have any questions. Thank you Brian for controlling the PowerPoint. You're welcome. Thank you for your time. It was fun. And yeah so we have just a few minutes now just discussion questions. I have a question you, you kind of mentioned something about the tenure process, or the processes that are, you know, kind of being run under the most traditional criteria to evaluate researchers do you think that there's room for these open science practices at least here in the US. You go first. Yes, I think there's room for them potentially I love the idea. I think there are there is some anecdotal evidence where I think, unfortunately, it is more about, Oh, well someone who's who's a dean or a provost or chair of the tenure and promotion committee really appreciates this. I think there are perhaps some institutions that are more broadly receptive or interested in it, but generally, I think it's it's not well established. I mentioned before that I don't put prints or pre prints on my CV. I don't. I don't think I put pre registrations on and I should. I think pre registrations are something that should count for for something. Yeah, I think we just become so grants publications. And it's part of the problem when it's just counting up their grants and looking at the journal impact factor, but that's the established system and I think it's going to take some time to get away from that. And pre prints are probably the are going to be what what carries the day in terms of tenure decisions ever, but I think some of these other. I think it's it's good to have an end can look positive that I don't think it can hurt. I think things like pre registration and data sets and materials shared materials that that can accrue citations to and really show an impact really could and should count in the tenure and promotion and hiring considerations. There's limited evidence that that they do right now but I think that's kind of part of would be within the universe of this conference is to try to just think about how to change that. And I would even add that I think just looking at the signs, a lot of how we're thinking about publishing, I think it's going to change with the addition of pre prints with ongoing battles with large publishers like Elsevier, you know the UC system hungry Norway, pulling their licenses their subscriptions from these giants because they're for profit, I think there's a lot of change that's going to happen. And there's even some talk of trying to get people to form coalitions to peer review, pre prints to give them that stamp of approval so that they'll count as high as a, you know, a peer review journal article but not have to pay for it. I think right now, everything Brian says is true like people are only sure what to make of them it's not going to get you 10 years not going to look as good as a peer reviewed article but I do think that in the coming years like we're probably going to see some shifting of what this means how they're treated and how we use them, not only to disseminate our work but how they help us with our scientific prestige or or how we sort of value them in our in our science and so I'm really interested in the future I'm hoping education researchers will begin to use these to more broadly disseminate their work. Hopefully there's added value to that in our own careers because I mean the goal of science is to do science and to disseminate it and so I think pre prints can really help us overcome a lot of the weird cultural things that we've developed as a science which is like paying for articles on the taxpayer pace for them and all these other sorts of things so this is a really good question, but I'm hopeful that in the future will be more open access and more value dedicated to people who use open science practices. As Stacy alluded to and we're out of time, but for those of you with an interest in kind of more radical change. There are some really interesting models that are alternatives to the traditional publishing model that would rely on things like like science as the main basis for just knowledge dissemination and perhaps journals play a role but it's much more a secondary kind of way to amplify certain selected products but but that the core of knowledge dissemination would be this much more open model of let's get everything out there. Thanks everybody I don't want to make. Oh, well, we're just making you late for lunch. Well I don't want to make you late for lunch but I feel even worse if we made you late for presentations but thanks so much I'm going to stop sharing my screen. Thank you.