 Hi and welcome to today's Healthy Marriage. I'm your host, Charlene Lamers, Executive Director for Great Marriages for Sheboygan County. Today I'd like to welcome our guest, Sarah McQueen. She's the Program and Resource Library Coordinator for Great Marriages. Our topic for today is Reality and Resources. The reality comes from an announcement, a wedding announcement in the New York Times on a Sunday that spoke about two couples who had divorced and then the couple had remarried. A follow-up article appeared on December 17th in the New York Times explaining the details of their romance. And then a follow-up segment on the morning show today, the Today Show, came about and that's how we became aware of the story. So we went and followed up, dug into it a little bit more. And we thought that it would be a great topic to talk about the reality of weddings and marriages and falling in love because we see a lot of reality in our office every day. So Sarah, would you care to summarize how that all came to be? Just give a little more detail about the couple and why we're talking about it today, perhaps. Sure. Well, the section that the story first showed up and was the vows section, which typically will tell a story of a couple who recently got married and just kind of explain how they met and their romance and getting married. And this couple met because they had kids in the same school. And so they met through just different functions with the school. And eventually they decided that they had fell in love with each other and that... And both were married and had children. Both were married and had small kids. And the families actually became close friends from what it sounds like. I mean, they took family vacations together. They, as families, they were close with each other. And that's kind of how they explained that they fell in love because they spent all this time with each other. So they decided that the only thing they could do was to leave their respective families and get married. And so the story when it first showed up in the New York Times actually got a lot of really negative feedback because the story didn't mention anything about their ex husband and wife or the kids who were affected by this. And a lot of people really felt like it was actually kind of insensitive to show this story without really showing how it actually affected, really devastated two families. So then another story was written and then it eventually, I think probably on a lot of morning shows or different talk shows, it kind of got picked up because it was just this really kind of controversial story in what's usually a section that's happy and all about happy, healthy romances. And this one was pretty different from what they normally show. Sure, because you read that section of the newspaper, the vows section, you know, who got married and you think, oh, happily ever after this is wonderful, right? Mm-hmm. Well, in this case then, you know, two families were destroyed for this marriage to occur. Mm-hmm. So then what are the ramifications? I think it wasn't the article on the 17th title, Two Divorces, One Scandal. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it was pretty controversial. Right. And so then I think one of the quotes in the article was the bride saying, we've had a lot of people say to us how brave we are to do this. Mm-hmm. Where does that come from? Well, I think, you know, this is a culture that's very about instant gratification. And so I think people like to find justification for why it's okay to kind of act on their emotions and their impulses. And so I think they felt like, oh, well, if this other couple did it and they could leave their marriage and go with someone who really made them happy, then it would be okay for me too. So that was some of the kind of positive feedback that they got. But a lot of the majority of the comments were really, I think that was positive to read those comments because there are people out there who really felt like they had made commitments and in their first marriages and it was really selfish of them people felt like to just kind of ditch that. And people said they sounded like they were sort of impulsive teenagers, but really they were both in their 40s and had been married and had kids and yet they were acting kind of more teenagers. Right. A lot of people accused the New York Times by running that story, kind of telling the story of how they fell in love and why it was a good thing, but that it was celebrating the disillusionment of two marriages and dissolving the family structure. Two families were sacrificed for the sake of these two people and their happiness. Yeah, it certainly didn't paint the whole picture of everybody who was actually affected by their decision and in the story they kind of made it sound like they tried to do what they did honorably. So they, in that story they said that they weren't unfaithful to their spouses at the time and they chose to do something terrible as honorably as possible, which just doesn't really paint the whole picture because it, I mean it shows that they didn't really uphold that first commitment and that first covenant they made in marriage. So just because they weren't unfaithful. Well their definition of unfaithful was they said they fell in love and then when they realized they were in love with each other they separated from their spouses and it wasn't until after their divorces that they moved in together. So they were defining unfaithfulness with a sexual act. Right, just a physical act. But we know that unfaithfulness can be emotional, can be mental, can be physical. And we know that from the office, right? So their definition was only the physical portion but certainly unfaithfulness is defined in a much broader perspective because people just by the act of falling in love with another person and mentally being with them instead of your spouse or the emotional ties that you allow to occur with another person is a form of unfaithfulness. Absolutely. So we would contradict that there was unfaithfulness prior to them moving in together. And then they lived together for a while before they were married. Right, I forget how long that was. Yeah I don't know exactly how long but I just, you know the whole situation must have been extremely confusing and difficult for the kids also and that wasn't anything that was mentioned or you know addressed as to how that's actually affected them. I mean the piece really didn't do justice to everyone who is affected by a situation like this. And we see that effect, we see the ripple effect of how many lives are damaged and how many people are affected by acts such as this. We see that every day. Absolutely. And in some cases didn't they actually they get together but then they broke up and went back to their families. Right. And then got back together and broke up. It did say that, that kind of bounced. I think it was the gentleman maybe specifically they said sort of bounced back and forth, back and forth because he was conflicted and that's just so confusing for the kids especially and really unfair for them to have to go through that. You know so how does this happen? Because they said they met at school. You know at their children's school and they instantly had an attraction. And then they would look for each other at events for the kids and their family's vacation together and at holiday dinners together and there was always this attraction and they never really crossed a line until one day they met in a bar. I think the quote from the article was that he invited her out for a drink at a local watering hole. The first time that they had gotten together away from their spouses. And she knew something was up. So you know how we talk about that how you can protect yourself from infidelity. And even though they might not have had the physical act of infidelity there was definitely a form of infidelity that was occurring. One of the ways to protect ourselves from the temptation of infidelity is not to meet with a person of the opposite sex that we were attracted to. You know in a bar where alcohol is being served puts ourselves in a predicament that probably doesn't need to good things. Yeah just keeping yourself out of situations that you think might be. You know I think in the office we see or we've heard a lot of stories or we've talked to different you know businesses that have seen workplace affairs that have been really detrimental to you know their organizations and their productivity and I think it's you know it's easy. It can be easy if you're in close proximity with someone and so the best thing is if you sense that happening to just stop it from the beginning. Don't put yourself in those situations where you know that could be. It could lead to something else. And because temptation and physical attraction to the opposite sex is always going to maybe occur. To some extent that happens is it's natural it will happen. But do we act on that and what choices do we make. And you know do we allow ourselves to get caught up in that and take it to the next level or do we stop and not put ourselves in the position where something could continue and right you know further the relationship. You know at one point in the article also they said one of the quotes was from the person writing the article that they commended the couple for handling the situation with honesty and openness. You know saying that they separated and they you know got divorced before they got married and and you know they're talking about the honesty and how they felt it was being honest to admit that they were in love and it would have been a lie to stay with their spouses who they were not attracted to or in love with anymore. And you know what do we talk about with that regarding the honesty. What is the actual honesty there. You know the honesty maybe to our spouses to say honey you know I'm I'm feeling this attraction towards someone else and I think our relationship is in a bad place and we need to do something about it. You know maybe maybe that type of honesty rather than saying I don't love you anymore and I'm attracted to this person so I'm just going to leave you dump you on around Christmas and then go meet up with this person. Right well and and all the research kind of shows that you know what they were or are feeling for each other is probably fleeting and so they've kind of acted on this what they say is love but is probably more about kind of lost in that physical attraction and that's not something that really necessarily lasts through a marriage because they're you know they're different stages and it goes through different phases and so they've really kind of it seems like made an impulsive decision based on something that might not last and I mean there are certainly you know second and third marriages that are very successful and really healthy but the research actually shows that you know a much higher percentage of second marriages end in divorce and then an even higher percentage of third marriages end in divorce so really that the odds are kind of stacked against them. And we know there are seven stages and what you were referencing is the first stage of passion point where I'm in love everything's wonderful you're perfect we're the perfect for each other we're each other's soulmate we not combat that idea that notion of soulmate absolutely all the time find that one perfect person who will make me happy forever and oh if I don't like you or we're arguing then you're not my soulmate and I've made a mistake so I have to go find that one perfect person but what is real marriage is it you know is it finding your soulmate mean happy forever not really reality is finding someone you love getting married and then choosing to make it work absolutely finding a way to make it work yeah and we know that that is the way that lasting marriages happen and in the end they look back and they'll 50 years of marriage they say hmm they're probably five years that weren't very good we struggled and in the middle of those five years of struggling we thought it was going to be that way forever and I just want to paint in and I just want to stop and I want to be in love and if we would have got out of it at that point we would have never went on to the best that was yet to come so looking back at 50 years oh there are 45 good years many many more good years but we would not have had them if we gave up during those times absolutely referencing I believe is that passion stage which is you know the wonderful stage mm-hmm well then what comes next well in the next stage is the rebellion stage realization realization and then rebellion right where you start to actually realize what are the what does it mean to live with this person what are the ins and outs of the daily life and that's difficult sometimes that takes a lot of adjustment and people aren't always prepared for that because and I think we see this in the office a lot we're kind of combating this idea of finding your soulmate and that there is one person out there who can complete you and make you happy and that's really unrealistic and when people enter into marriage with that idea they have really high expectations for their spouse and they're setting themselves up for disappointment because there's no way that one person can do everything for you and make you happy and kind of complete you it's you know each person has to be happy you know they need to be able to be healthy in a relationship and not expect someone else to do everything for them and so this idea of well I'm in this marriage now this person's not doing something for me so I'm gonna find someone else who can who can do that for me well five seven years down the road they're probably gonna hit that same point and then all of a sudden feel like oh wait well this person's not doing something for me or they're not completing me so maybe they're not the right person and you can just see how the cycle continues and why second marriages and third marriages and have even higher you know percentages of of ending in divorce and we know that second third marriages go through the seven stages faster mm-hmm so you know the first stage being that passion I'm in love everything's great second stage realization I'm learning that you're not perfect I'm forgetting that I'm not perfect also mm-hmm but I'm learning what your imperfections are in the third stage to rebel against them mm-hmm to openly feel like maybe I made a choice to argue a lot to have a lot of conflict mm-hmm that's a it's a negative stage mm-hmm and a lot of people struggle through that mm-hmm you know and so then the second third marriage is you get to that stage even faster mm-hmm so it is hard so okay so this couple reaches that stage not a great stage and they find somebody that they're passionate with and they they can be in love with they're feeling all the good feelings of the passion stage so divorce get married to the new one or the passion stage you know this couple that we're referencing has only been married what a year and a half something yeah in a couple years not long so what happens when they get to the rebellion stage mm-hmm then what you know where are we going to be and how are those families going to be affected mm-hmm and then what are we going to think about all this from a different you know a new perspective of looking back and seeing what what we've been through mm-hmm and where we are today exactly we're kind of fighting against this culture of you know instant gratification where if I'm not happy right now I'm going to figure out how how I can be happy and that really you know what we're referencing the seven stages of marriage that there's a book called the seven stages of marriage and I think we have it right yeah it's based on a survey you know this huge survey done of married couples and research and it also shows that couples who would describe themselves as miserable I mean they're just in the thick of it fighting really having a tough time well couples who stay together even when that that's where they are right now you know five years later 80% of those couple 86% of those couples say that they're happy that they're in a completely different place than they were five years ago but when you're in it it's so hard to to see that but it's really worth it to be able to figure out how to get through it together as a couple and your marriage is obvious just that much stronger you know when you're on the other side of it exactly and they talk about pendulum you know how far you swing this way mm-hmm in a negative place in your marriage you come back on the other side to a positive place so when you are in that bad place you make it through it strengthens you mm-hmm you know you are in a much stronger place because you know that you've been through some challenging times you made it you have that bond and you have the knowledge that you can make it through almost anything mm-hmm exactly so you we've also we brought with us some resources you know we referenced the seven stages of marriage I just wanted to talk about you know the title of the show today's reality and resources so what happens when reality sets in where do we go for help mm-hmm we suggest you can come to us obviously you can go to your pastor mm-hmm go to friends or family members who are making it who have a successful marriage of 20 years or more mm-hmm and are making it mm-hmm do not go to people who are in bad relationships that are in the middle of a divorce have been in a in a bad place because they're probably not going to give you wise counsel mm-hmm go to someone who has the experience to make it through absolutely you know I think I think it's starting to be more accepted to kind of look for support or ask for help if you're struggling you know I think it used to be people had a really hard time talking about it because they felt like it was so private and you know I think you think you're the only one going through it and we hear that a lot oh we do you know people don't really want to talk to their friends and family because they're kind of embarrassed but the reality is everyone has gone through it you know it might look different for different couples but especially those couples who have been married for 20 30 40 years you can guarantee that they've had tough months and years probably and that they really have a lot of wisdom to probably share with people so I think part of it is just letting people know that it's normal to hit those rough patches and it's you know it's recommended to get some help and to talk to people who can support you through that so what let's talk for a moment about what how do we stay in a marriage when we're unhappy why should we why should we stay in a marriage when we're unhappy um well I mean I think what you know what we mentioned before that statistics really show that if you can get through it together you know you're going to be probably happier than you were before then you could even imagine you know you really have learned how to get through these tough times together and so the trust and respect is going to be even higher than it was before and the the the chances are that you would the chances that you would get a divorce and marry again and that that would be successful and that would be really what you're looking for are really slim I mean it's counterintuitive it's not that you learned the first time around are going to do it better the second time it's the reverse it's going to be even harder and so if you can just stick it out and figure out how to get some support you know your marriage is going to be so much stronger and I think you know there's a misconception that it's better for the kids to not see parents fighting and that if I'm in an unhappy marriage it's going to be better for the kids to get to get out of that unhappy marriage and get in a situation that's better for me and the research really shows that the opposite is true that kids do better when there are two parents in the household and that I mean fighting is normal so it's not a terrible thing for kids to see parents fighting when they see them doing it in a healthy way or you know making up I mean that's exactly what we've learned and what we've seen as the reference that you made to the research is that when children see their parents have difficulties and argue they also see that their parents stick it out you're giving them the example that you can have tough times you can make it through and things can be good again you teach them that you argue but you make up you know you apologize you go on and you continue to love someone that's the security of a marriage that lasts a lifetime that is the best gift that we can give to our children we have moms come in all the time or people in general but specifically mom sometimes they'll say well my children are my priority because they're young and they need me but your spouse needs you and your children need you to have a healthy marriage because the best gift that we can give our children is a secure family environment with a mom and and dad you know and all of the research shows that to be the case that that is is healthy for children to grow up with a mom and dad in a place so you know if we make our spouse is our priority then we are doing what's best for our children because we're protecting our marriage it's a gift that we can give them and they will learn from our example about what a relationship is and healthy one and how to make it work or not work and we teach that divorce is generational so it increases your chance for divorce if you if your parents are divorced you know the more divorce you see the more you realize that that is an option and the more likely you are to use that option so we have to try to really find ways to keep that marriage healthy and strong and to give that example to the kids because if we raise our kids properly and we do the right things they're going to grow up and they're going to leave us one day they're going to get married and have families of their own and then we're with our spouse and then that's when we see the empty nesters come in and say I don't know who you are I haven't focused on you for how long I've focused on the kids and now what do I do with you I don't even know if I like you anymore how do we spend the rest of our life together and you don't want that to happen you want the empty nest yours to be a time you're looking forward to spending time together and doing fun things and going out and exploring new avenues together and finding new hobbies together so for that to happen you have to continue to make your marriage a priority even when the children are there find time to be alone find time to do things if you're in a rough place when your marriage fix it go out and find ways to get help there there is help available we need to maybe what the one billboard we have you know you have to lose the pride to find the love sometimes we have to put our pride on the shelf and make ourselves a little vulnerable to opening up and asking for help exactly so let's talk about you know some of the other resources that we have because we have a resource library and we have a lot of resources available for couples and we have resources for healthy dating relationship skills for singles pre-marriage education books for that to help you you know prepare for marriage we have marriage enrichment we have books for when infidelity occurs or if you're having problems in marriage and money just a wide variety books DVDs CDs let's talk about some we have a whole you know slew here in front of us of course this is just a very small taste of what we have in the office but let's just pick up a couple and you know talk about them so we reference the seven stages of marriage that is good for helping people put in perspective where the relationship is absolutely what about love and respect that's probably one of the you know kind of top-rated items in our library and I think it's so critical because it it really teaches couples the idea that kind of the different needs that men and women have in a relationship and that if we can understand that then we're better equipped to you know give our spouse what they need and to ask for what we need and it just kind of lays the foundation for really good communication and that's kind of what everything boils down to I mean ninety nine point nine percent of what we see in the office is is kind of communication issues and I think we have a book here to cracking the communication code you know or maybe we don't have that with us today but that is obviously a book that references how strong the need for good communication is within the couple we have a book for the first five years of marriage why do we have one focusing on the first five years of marriage those can probably be some of the most challenging and people I think that's the time where people really you know go into marriage not fully knowing what it is that they're getting into and so they can be even more surprised when they hit those you know the realization and the rebellion stage and so just giving people the information of you know what it's really like and the reality kind of prepares them better when they hit those those stages just want to quick throw out a couple more so how to avoid marrying a jerk or jerk at you know this this is talking about having realistic expectations for what relationships are and what defines healthy and what is not healthy because we see a lot of people especially cohabitating couples living in an extremely unhealthy relationships and then perhaps that leads to marriage and that's setting a very weak foundation for marriage so the success rate of those marriages is very small and that book is great too because it really encourages you to look at yourself and look at maybe patterns that you've established and why you've established those and I think the tendency is to really point the finger at other people but we need to take accountability for ourselves exactly you before you mentioned the differences between men and women we have books in our library laugh your way to a better marriage but we also have this set of four DVDs and you know it's four DVDs talking specifically on the difference between men and women how do we stay married when we don't like each other what does that all mean Mark Gunger who is the speaker of the series the laugh your way to a better marriage series is coming live to Sheboygan at the Stephanie Weill Center on February 19th we're sponsoring that event because we know that it's a great event to get couples out absolutely laugh they can laugh and have a great evening together and focus on their marriage in a non-threatening fun way so that'll be a great event I just want to quickly throw out some others because I think we're short on time divorce busting when your marriage is having problems fighting for your marriage this is great it outlines tools and ways that you can improve your marriage sex starved marriage we have books for when one person wants out a mate wants out but you want to try to save the marriage on your own there are things that you can do your time starved marriage how many marriages are time-starved the five love languages the love their book from fireproof the movie which is an excellent movie we have a number of DVDs ten great dates to energize your marriage before you say I do for empty nesters there's something for all stages of marriage in our library you know from one year to 35 40 50 years of marriage there are things that you can do to improve your marriage absolutely I just want to thank you so much you know for being our guest today I know that we have many more resources and we could probably talk for another hour on this at least or more we'll have to stop for today so I want to thank Sarah for being on the show today for joining us in healthy marriage I want to thank you for joining us we hope that you'll come back and see our next program remember that marriage it does matter you can go to our website or come to our office to get some of these resources also if you have questions that you would like us to address send them to great marriages and we'll answer them on the next shows thanks so much