 Salaam and welcome to episode 2 of Play Things, the latest presentation from New Slick Sports. I'm Siddharthani and with me on the show as always is our sports editor, Leslie Xavier. Leslie, welcome back. We're talking on this show about all the big developing stories, big news stories from India and from around the world from sports. And our first story today is from North America where we are talking about the National Women's Soccer League, a club competition for women in that part of the world, where serious allegations of sexual abuse have turned into a movement. Sinead Farelli and Maliana Shim, both retired football players, appeared on a popular morning television show in America. They were joined by superstar Alex Morgan to talk about these allegations, how they went through, what they went through in their careers. And it was a powerful message that has resonated around the world with stories coming up as far apart as Venezuela and New Zealand. I spoke a little while ago to my senior colleague Sharda Ogre for all the latest on this developing story. Sharda, what developments are we seeing on this front, particularly in the context of the NWSL with the three players appearing on a very popular morning show in the US? What's been happening over the past few weeks and months that has made this into a sort of movement? I think the fact that you're having athletes come out and the women soccer players of the US that are the most popular, the most well-known, the most celebrated faces of women's football around the world, and they happen to be from the United States, that's why just a little bit more amplification of an issue that I would imagine exists everywhere, but the fact that it has come out with such force and there have been repercussions on it. And I believe that the coach who was accused, Pat Riley, who was accused of making these accusations, who was accused of harassing and molesting female players, he's actually got another job as well. So that also shows you that there is a little bit of an imbalance in the sense of who protects who in what case. The fact that there have been repercussions, there have been stories coming out from Australia, from Venezuela, you hear it, and I'm sure this will just snowball and we'll hear more and more like we had heard at the time of the US gymnastics scandal that happened which again shook everyone, because the United States is the most advanced, the richest, the biggest, the most professional of sporting ecosystems in the world, and if this kind of thing is happening there, then you can only imagine what might be happening elsewhere where there's not even sort of accountability or any structures of responsibility or rules that are there with reference to male, basically people in positions of power and sport and how they exercise it on young athletes. Right, so in the context like you're mentioning that this is such a developed sporting ecosystem where things from the collegiate level to the amateur level to the professional level are all structured and have been structured over decades now and where these safeguards are still missing. What happens in the context of let's say the global South countries like India where women's sport is now, we're seeing post Olympics for example, a lot of popularity, a lot of media coverage, we see a lot more young women coming into sport at various levels, participating at various levels. How does it work here? What has been your experience since you've been covering sport for so long? What you find in the global South is literally maybe a magnification of what we are seeing in the United States with no recourse for athletes in situations like this. In countries where say women's sport is dependent on people's livelihoods like literally life or death issues of livelihood and not the comfort of indulging in sport out of leisure, then what do you do? In the case of India we've had stories, I mean in the case of the most prominent sport in India is cricket, the CEO, there was allegations against the CEO of the cricket board and the way that was handled also shows you what the consequences are for women who protest, who complain, who formally lodge a complaint. Given the fact that Can you tell us a little bit more about how that was actually handled specifically? What happens in these kind of cases? So what happened in that case is that the CEO was accused of sexual harassment by a couple, not one, but a couple of people, maybe three we are not sure and a committee was set up. Of course let's understand that the rules in India require there to be an internal complaints committee to begin with, which of course the BCCI which is the cricket board in India didn't have that committee. The committee that was set up, one of the independent person in that committee who was not connected, they were all independent but one of them suggested and recommended that the CEO go for gender sensitization training and the other two said, oh everything was fine, nothing happened and this was just a false accusation that was made and let's move on. And the person who, the independent member of that committee is a worker in this field. This is what she does, she's an advisor to many companies on this issue and she recommended that this happened. But it didn't, the CEO kept his job for a while and then he moved on to another organization with a very heavy severance package and all the rest of it. And the women who complained, we don't know what has happened to that complaint now. So there is a certain level of, there is still a very large and a very strong male domination that is there in international sport now we are seeing through the examples of the US. And you would want there to be a change, I know that the IOC for example wants there to be a gender parity in the Olympics but there was a study done recently, I may not remember the exact name, they found out that and these were done basically in Europe, in North America and in Europe. And it found out that there were only 7% of women who were at the, on the top board level of these international sporting organizations. Now that's a very small number. I think you need to have that number to increase, at least for that to be some kind of parity and an acknowledgement of this imbalance that exists and how you need to tackle it very, very, almost severely and with serious consequences of, you know, for people that are found in these situations. And it's almost like the medieval attitude with regard to finance and everything that was there in the 70s and the 80s in international sport has followed through and still exists in terms of these sort of customs and practices and this kind of behavior that you find in global sporting bodies everywhere. What next for the movement Sharda? You would want there to be maybe a censure in the form of, we know that for example, it took so long for US gymnastics to act on this, you know, for the college that, the gymnastics accusation that the coach was, I think Michigan it was if I'm not wrong. For the college to act on the case. I mean, there has to be, you're just wondering how big this mountain is, but you have to climb it one step at a time and you need to have more and more voices, maybe connect the United Uniform, that's the United Nations to push international sports organizations to have all of them to have this in place, you know, and I know that because of the law that is there in India, there is supposed to be international internal complaints committees in all our sporting federations, but we don't know how they actually play out who's involved. So athlete safety, whether it's a young male or a young female athlete safety should become as important a priority across sport as mental health and well-being. Alright, always good to have Sharda's perspective on the show and we'll be catching up with her more often and more frequently as this show progresses. Leslie, coming to the next story, which is India deciding to pull out of the Commonwealth Games hockey tournament in a bit of a shocker in retaliation to England pulling out of something else, what's going on? The Junior World Cup, which is being staged in Bhubaneswar next month, November and December. So England pulled out from the Junior World Cup, citing COVID-19 safety concerns and immediately after that pulling out was announced, how India came out saying that we won't be sending our team to England for the 2022 Commonwealth Games. There is a bit of a history to this beyond just what has happened just now because there has been a tug-of-war between the Indian Olympic Association and the Commonwealth Games Federation. This was a couple of years back in 2019 when it came out, it was announced that shooting and archery won't be part of the program in Birmingham 2022. Both sports in which India... Yeah, so India's standing on the medals table might take a dip and as things go, this is how the PR mechanism work post a multi-sport discipline event, so we can say that our medals tally is this much. We finished second, third, fourth, fifth, whichever standings. So that makes a huge difference and so Indian Olympic Association led by Narendra Bhattwa, he flexed his muscle saying that we would pull out from the Commonwealth Games because this is something that would affect India's overall performance. Unacceptable. Yeah, unacceptable. So there was some kind of diplomacy that followed the Commonwealth Games Federation representatives in fact came to India, they had a discussion, a larger discussion and it was decided as a compromise formula, more or less, that two Commonwealth Championships will be held in India for archery and shooting. I mean, it's not been held previously, so this is like the first edition that was supposed to happen, which is like a... And it would continue following that as a championship. So this was more or less agreed upon by two parties and the problem was diffused. Just that after the COVID-19 struck and CWG Federation was quick in announcing that... Cancellation. That plan is cancelled. So there is an history with that. So I mean, frankly, I don't understand what the power struggle is in this regard because it must be, I don't know, it reeks of ego struggle between officials, beyond anything else and also a bit of that nationalism idea is being pushed in India, we are strong, we are upcoming sporting nation. Don't play with us. Economic superpower. Economic superpower, so to speak. And the recent development, it just defies sporting logic, performance logic because Indian hockey team, as we all know, medal winners, the women's team also had a great outing in Tokyo and it's a momentum that needs to be carried forward because it's also a critical period for Indian hockey because it's a transition period. As we all know, last episode we discussed also senior players have retired. The same thing will happen in the women's team. So young players needed to be blooded in and they need experience. Camp, being in the national camp, being in that larger pool doesn't help a player to step up their performance when stakes are high. Also, I'm assuming it doesn't give the national team coaches a chance to actually figure out which of their pool players are actually the best of the lot. Exactly. So this we understand after seeing a lot of players train and not always that the best players who are in training will perform in clutch situations. And vice versa. Vice versa as well. So that match experience is key. This has been established, spoken about by coaches at large when they went to discuss preparation or transitioning of a team. And we are missing out on that because next year, 2022, and beyond that, see, it's a lesser period between the Olympic Games, right? This time, 2024, the Olympics will happen. So I know the reason cited one was that Asian Games is a big event for Indian hockey because it's a direct qualifying birth. You get one win gold, you qualify for the Olympics. So they want to focus on that. And there is a 30-day period between the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Asian Games. So the hockey India's reason was that, I mean, beyond the politics, is that the players won't get enough time to come out of quarantine from that bubble and get into this bubble. There's always a risk of infection, all these things. So we don't want to risk that. We want to prepare the players. But then, Commonwealth Games is not a minor competition as such. India, I mean, with Australia in the ranks, Indian men's hockey team has a very, I mean, it's like lesser chance to win gold. And there's tough competition. You have Malaysia playing in the mix. Of course, you have Pakistan coming in, always traditionally strong player, a strong team to fight against New Zealanders there. South Africa. South Africa is there. So it's a nice quality competition that you're missing out on. And there's this larger idea that you have a large pool of players who are there waiting in the wings. So if at all you don't want to risk the senior players, the A team, you can always mix the team and send a B team led by a few seniors with a decent amount of senior fringe players and the upcoming players who would be featuring in the World Cup, Junior World Cup next month. So you're missing out on that also. So in that ego tussle or whatever political struggle that is happening between the Commonwealth Games Federation and the Indian bodies, you are forgetting that you are missing out or you are actually denying a chance for the players to be part of a larger transition that hockey India or Indian hockey needs at this moment. So a quick bit of background before we get back to Leslie for our viewers who may or may not be that familiar with the background or boardroom politics. The reality of the Commonwealth Games is beyond, of course, the questions of the relevance of the Commonwealth itself. Is that not too many countries have the infrastructure as well as the economic or political will to host these multidisciplinary sporting events. Therefore, what is likely to happen, what has already been happening over the past decade or so, but is likely since Delhi 2010 and is likely to continue, is that a few nations, India, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, are likely to be the only sort of willing hosts for events such as the Commonwealth Games. Now here there is a bit of a similarity also in the sport of hockey and the sport of cricket where India is perhaps the centre of capital and investment that flows into the sport, sponsorship as well as presenting one of the largest television audiences for both these sports. So that's a bit of the background in which India is flexing their muscle. Now I want to come to you on a point that Michael Holdings actually brought up in the context of the recent pull-out of England from playing cricket in Pakistan. New Zealand of course pulled out as well, citing security concerns. The English pulled out without any specific reasoning even and Holdings was as usual didn't mince any words. He said this is pure western arrogance. So if we look at the way the West has kind of treated developing nations from the beginning of time, is this not justified action on the part of nations such as India to say, we also have a say in which things are run. Don't assume that you can make all the decisions. For an eye, it doesn't make the world a better place. It doesn't make sport a better place either. Very quickly you put me in my place. No, no, I mean, so why do we play sport then if it's not for a larger thing? In fact in the last episode we discussed about how India has a though they are performing very badly at the SAF championship, India has a larger role to play in the region as the big brother of the footballing fraternity. Also you understand the politics in SAF region as well, beyond sport I mean. So sport should overcome such small petty things if the westerners have been, I mean earlier as colonial masters they have treated India badly or all the countries who have been under them badly or in a discriminative way, but then later power changes happened like you said in Cricket or Hockey for right now. So when you have that power in hand, is it right to give it back? No, I feel that we should be the larger entity here. And secondly, are we flexing muscles for the right reason? There's always a reasoning for that, right? So if India is flexing muscle in Cricket, it's for money. It's not for something ethical like are you cancel a tour with Pakistan who is in our region, that's not right. You cancel a tour with India also because that's how we stand. It's part of the Asian Cricket Council. So that never happens, right? It's also, I guess, noteworthy to mention that both India and Pakistan have gone to England during COVID in exactly the same conditions. They've gone through the bubble and they have fulfilled whatever obligations, whatever expectations the host nation had from them. So perhaps the assumption is that the reverse should also happen. Exactly, so that's the point. West Indies started off the post-COVID era for Cricket by travelling to England and then Pakistan went there. And of course, there were risks involved. The entire world was watching also. This was, again, across one of the first international action to happen. And getting back to another point quickly, you mentioned about host nations, the issue. I just thought of it. So this, the Commonwealth Championship that was supposed to happen, archery and shooting, it was meant to be a pilot of sorts to explore... This, in fact, was the Commonwealth Games Federation who came at that point and had quoted to the media sources also that it's like exploring a co-host kind of an idea where different events can be staged in the future. And that's the economic reality of multi-sport disability and as we all know, every host nation, every host city struggle after be it Olympics, be it Asian Games, be it any. Right, okay. Thanks for that. We'll leave it there for now and go on to the last topic. But before that, because we made big, big promises on the first show, saying that we're going to stick to a number of topics, we're going to stick to a time and then, of course, we hit all of that out of the park for a complete six. So episode one was around 35 minutes long and I've wasted 30 seconds just talking to you about this. But what we will do is keep this one slightly shorter, more to the point and let us know also what you think of how this show is coming along. Our final story, because we have with us in studio, potential Kerala Keisri himself, is from wrestling, a sport that Leslie has participated in and follows very closely. The world championships are underway in Oslo and Norway. How's India doing? What's happening on that front? Okay, so it's a... I mean, in that sense, you can't call the world championship a lesser championship, but it's a lesser championship because most of the elite wrestlers are skipping it, understandably also because they all plan to peak for the Olympics and then... So in India's case, our star wrestlers from Vinesh Fogart to Bajrang Pune and Deepak Pune, they have skipped the world championships and we have sent a bunch of juniors in their place. Juniors in the sense, second, third, fourth-line wrestlers in the mix and the freestyle events got over, men's freestyle. We didn't manage a medal there. Couple of nice bout victories happened, but the women did well. So Anshu Malik, she won silver in the 57 kg freestyle category and became the first Indian women wrestler to enter the final of the world championship. And she fought exceptionally well and she added disappointing Olympics, missed out narrowly on a bout victory and being 19-year-old and having a long road ahead, it's nice that she bounced back and she was very determined. So even speaking to media after a medal victory, she kept on saying, our journey post-Tokyo to reaching here was tough in the sense she had to refocus from that mental low state and then come out and then also she was carrying a small injury on the shoulder despite that she fought well. And the other one was a bronze medal, Sarita Mohr in the 59 kg category. Again fought exceptionally well and given the circumstances that it's a non-Olympic category, weight category. So in wrestling there is that thing. In Olympics there is only a limited number of categories allowed and then for the world championship, it's a larger six, five, six categories more are there in the mix. So she's in a non-Olympic category and her victory is important because in the coming Olympic cycle she may jump up to the next category. She is fighting currently in the 59 kg category. She can jump up to 62 and probably throw in the stake at a chance to represent India at the Olympics. So the chance that all the wrestling nations, India included, have taken in this world championship is something that I was talking about in the case of Occhi, that you give the juniors or the fringe senior players a chance to prove themselves. So like I mentioned in the case of Sarita Mohr, she has an experience and a medal at the world championship. So the confidence that she gets, the understanding of the level of international wrestlers that she would be facing in the future. So all these are invaluable. You can't replicate that in a national camp even if you're fighting against, say, Vinesh Fogat or Sakshi Malik. Even if you take that camp internationally and you're fighting against maybe the top Russian wrestlers or the top US wrestlers, it doesn't have the same kind of environment, the same kind of pressure that a world championship obviously has. It's never the same. And that's where, like you mentioned, all these dynamics about hosting or even dynamics thrown in by COVID-19. It's unfortunate, but I believe that there are certain protocols in place and having witnessed a lot of international events happening across the world. I believe that all these things can be bypassed and figured out for the larger good of sport. And in that regard, of course, it's their choice, but England pulling out is also odd. It's wrong. I'm not speaking. I'm not talking about it as an Indian journalist talking about it, but in general, what India is doing is also wrong. The same thing, England pulling out is wrong, but of course, it's their sports administrator's decision. And if you cite COVID safety, then you can't argue with that. Yeah. All right. With that, I think, Lazi will bring this episode to a close. Thank you guys for watching. Like we've said before, and we say all the time, send us your comments right into us. Like, subscribe, follow, share, and do all of that jazz, and of course, we are all playthings of alien forces.