 We've got two other topics on the schedule, proficiency-based learning. We're just going to talk a little bit about with you and then hear from Mike McRae from the Vermont Principal Association, then we're going to wrap up the day with universal school meals. I pulled out the part on Act 173, which is the, some know as a special education law, we'll do that. We'll find another spot for that. We just ran a little tight today. So, would you tell us a little bit? I've become a bit of a skeptic from some of the testimony we heard from teachers last week and others, of proficiency-based learning. And I'm just wondering, when did this all start and is it working? I know you necessarily can't tell us whether or not it's working, but when did this all start to transpire? And I believe, we already have Mike McRae in the way of McRae, then we'll have him join. Mr. McRae, good to see you. Thanks for joining us. We'll start with our ledge council and then hear from you. Thank you, Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Council. I'm glad you have someone from the field here because there's really nothing in your green books about proficiency-based learning specifically. Proficiency-based learning is defined in the State Board of Education rules. In their Education Quality Standards Series 2000 rules, and they are tied to the curriculum content that supervisory unions are required to adhere to when they're setting their union-wide curriculum and also setting local graduation requirements in school districts. These rules went into effect, I believe, in April of 2014, and the rules themselves specifically, as I lost my place, require proficiency-based learning for students entering seventh grade in September 2014, which would then, that would make them the class of 2020. So the goal of the rules were to have students graduating in 2020, who were in seventh grade in September of 2014, demonstrating evidence of proficiency in the curriculum outlined in the State Board of Education rules. And so it's really since about 2014 that this requirement has been around. And I believe that it came out of Act 77, which is the Flexible Pathways Act, and created the Flexible Pathways requirements. It amended the high school completion and dual enrollment program so that they look like essentially what they look like today. And again, in Act 77, there's nothing specific in that legislation that says anything about proficiency-based learning shall be in effect on such and such a date. But my understanding is that the concept of proficiency-based learning and the requirement that that's what schools are working towards for 2020 graduates came out of the work everyone did in relation to the requirement of the Flexible Pathways program. And that's really allowing students to experience learning in lots of different ways and demonstrating proficiency based on different types of evidence so that shifts was kind of propelled by Act 77. And there was a history leading up to Act 77, but the concept of proficiency-based learning is not specifically defined or codified in your green books. It's really a concept that I believe the field will have a lot more knowledge to be able to speak about. So Ms. St. James, what strikes me is a little strange in all of this is that a rule was made, but doesn't that mean there was no legislative directive for that rule? And I see Mr. McGrath raising his hand. I don't know if you want to punt it to him or if you want to take a stab at that. So I will just say that Act 77 didn't contain any legislative directives there. It's possible that that directive was in a different act and that I just have not, it was not easily tied together, but certainly as Mr. McGrath has the answer. Mr. McGrath, please. The answer, yeah. I'll start by just saying good afternoon. Thank you for having me. My name is Mike McGrath and I'm a former school counselor in Unisburg, the middle school principal in Unisburg. And I was the high school principal in Montpelier High School from 2015 to 2019. I've been working for the Vermont Principal Association full time since the summer of 2019. And I helped to lead Montpelier High School to a proficiency based system and transcript for the beginning and right when I got there and full implementation in 2017. And I've been working as a consultant as recently as last Friday with districts in just helping them understand what proficiency based learning is and how to do it well. The specific question that was just, that you just raised Senator Campion is essentially like the way in which the field has processed that question for the last 10 years now, almost 10 years, is to consider it common law because it's adopted by the State Board of Education in the educational quality standards of 2014 and it does not butt against any laws. It's considered the law of the land in that way. With that said, you were sort of asking for the history. It's a history that I have lived I guess I'm getting to be sort of an old hat around the state which is surprising for me, but I was there when that EQS was adopted in 2013 and 14 and there was a lot of energy around it at that time. The state consulted with the great schools partnership and they did some really big initial launches of that work about what it means, how things are different. And then there was a concentrated effort around the state and districts at varying levels of engagement and support. And since then, there's been different iterations and including testimony on this very topic almost exactly three years ago, which is kind of interesting. I looked up my testimony from three years ago in Senate Ed and it's very similar. And I'm here for you and with you until 350 and I would open it up to what questions people have. Senator Campion, you said that you had had some increasing doubts about it. And I think I can fill in any blanks or I'll do my best anyways. Yeah, so last week we asked some teachers to join us to understand what was happening in our classrooms and what it's like to be a teacher. And I think at least two of the three of them said, this isn't really working. That they felt as though, you know, this is not, kids aren't, again, I don't remember for sure. The NDA has their names and also we have names in our database, but this is a problem. Kids might not be learning what they should be learning. Did we go down the wrong path? We saw some information come out of Maine that Maine is now pulling back and saying, hey, this might need, you know, when we're talking about educating kids for the 21st century, proficiency based learning, we may have missed steps. So either tell us that we're on the wrong, the right track or tell us that we're on the wrong track and let us start to, you know, fix any mistakes we've got out there. That's where I am. Yeah, thanks. We're on the right track. It's not a panacea. You know, I think there may be- So this is just the, the right track in order to do what? I mean, when we do this, what are we really trying to get kids to be able to do? It does a few different things. First and foremost, not utilizing proficiency based learning or in some places in the country, it's called competency based learning or sometimes it's called standards based learning but to not root your curriculum and your instruction in a standard would mean that you would be wide open to like, well, what are we learning? What are we aiming for? And so proficiency based learning at its core is answering the question, what will students learn? And each subject area, you know, from kindergarten through 12th grade has standards that are adopted, you know, globally, right? The common core are national standards. Even if you looked to the IB programs, international baccalaureate, that, you know, those have international standards which the teachers and the schools are building towards throughout that students experience and to not have that really, I don't think anyone would invite that in just like, oh yeah, just we're not really sure what standards we're going for or what the idea is. I think the confusion has been at least historically and by that, I mean, recent history the last five, six years really comes into the implementation and also the grading and assessment practices and the reporting of the grading and assessment practices and that's where there's been a lot of differentiation around the state and the ways in which to do that and there's been, you know, sometimes there's been confusion in the community or from parents or that in my experience has been the flashpoint of concern. So it answers the question, what are students learning fundamentally? And the reason that it's often tied with X-77 is it makes a lot more possible with X-77 in order to have those flexible pathways. It means that there's the opportunity for schools to partner with community partners and unique opportunities for students. The example that I sometimes use for people to get their head around is that if Hayden, I'll just pick on Hayden in the room there, he's learning a lot working in that office and there's the opportunity within X-77 for Hayden to earn credits towards his graduation, doing what he's doing. And the flexibility is there from X-77 and the learning scaffolding is there because of proficiency-based learning. So he can identify with his school and with his teachers. All right, I'm gonna be doing listening, I'm gonna be doing writing and he can pick out some, you know, common core standards to work towards with his school that this experience can be a part of rather than just a traditional classroom or in some other kind of opportunity, just a way to illustrate it as an example. So again, just to push back a little bit, you know, what kids are learning, thinking back to my own report cards, you know, my parents knew geometry was a problem because of the grade that was on there, you know. So how is this actually different? Take geometry, for example. What I'm worried about, Mike, is that as we're sort of here at this table, we're doing something where kids really aren't getting, some kids, the rigor and the knowledge that they need to leave here and be these 21st century citizens. And Senator Poole, go ahead. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. I'm probably gonna get in trouble for saying this. I'm sure I'm gonna make someone mad if not lots of people mad. But I am just going to share some observations as someone who was working in education for quite a long time, which is that, again, this is from my perspective, and I'm trying not to pass. I don't wanna say that the system is right or wrong. This is just an observation. Our school system, generally speaking, is still very much, it was born out of the Industrial Revolution, right? It's still very much sort of based on that kind of system where you've got Carnegie Units and seat time and you've got English and math and physics, these subjects that are separated. It's not super flexible. We just heard from Senator Chinnans who said, you know, there's no flexibility in the state range. So we have a system that doesn't always allow for a lot of, let's say, creativity and flexibility. I'm just, again, I don't wanna make some people mad. And we, but then we try to take these ideas that could be good ideas, like proficiency-braving and like personalized learning plans. And we try to put them on top of this system. And it is, first of all, it's not easy to do. And second of all, from my experience, it's hard to make it work. It would take so much, it would take such a rapid change in the way things work and so much professional development and also retraining that it's a hard fit. And I think our reaction, especially as teachers who are overworked and often underpaid, is to like, I can't, is can't do that. So it's not that it's not a good idea. It's just that the system doesn't allow for that kind of fairly radical shift. And that was just, I observed it and that's kind of what those are sort of some of my observations. No, I appreciate that. Very helpful. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, it does make sense. And Mike, I'll just say, you know, looking at Hayden's, you know, one of the supervisors here, you know, looking at this evaluation, the quarterly evaluation, there's nothing about what you're getting academically from this. It's basically interactions, attitude, that kind of thing, which is all important. But what I'm looking for, you know, what I'm thinking we're looking for is, what is that sort of academic rigor that you might be getting out of this experience? Yeah, it's a great question, Senator Campion. And of course, it depends on the local context and it depends on, you know, the students' plan and what their goals are and what's possible in that given system as well. I will say that at Montpelier High School, we had schools around the state and around the country come to see, you know, how we set up our flexible pathways program, including our community-based learning program. And the reason for that is because Montpelier High School had a 25-year head start. They had had a program for a long time. And that meant that we had more capacity to build out not just community-based learning programs that might be an elective kind of course, but also to be able to have English teachers, in my example, have dedicated hours to be able to build plans for students to be able to have, you know, the rigorous kind of English credit opportunity, proficiency-based learning credit opportunity that I was describing in my example with Hayden. So that requires, you know, a system to be able to, one, have the capacity financially to be able to have FTEs dedicated to that and to be able to have enough momentum and capacity to build the system in which those kinds of things can be planned for, evaluated, recorded with community partners, in this case, Senate Ed themselves. So I think there's variants that remains in the field. And I think that there are reasons for that. People were in different starting places and had a different implementation experience. I mentioned the Great Schools Partnership launch that really happened in 2014 and 15. But not all districts were there. And also that, you know, that investment fell off. And I would just say that if people were interested in doing more around this, there is, you know, some recent attention to it from the Agency of Education, which we are grateful for in the field with their portrait of a graduate work that they just announced this winter in particular, in consultation again with the Great Schools Partnership. And there's ongoing need for, you know, appropriation to be able to implement anything of size and scope well. And your question around rigor, Senator Capian, is I would say that that was a complex, there's a complex answer to that. There's a lot of different things that may be impacting, you know, ensuring that students have a rigorous experience and that all of the factors which you probably all hear on a regular basis are contributing to that, including, you know, the implementation of a proficiency-based system. But I would say that it would be a turn in the wrong direction if we were going to not have high standards in which we're gonna work towards. Is it optional school district to school district? I mean, school to school, it sounds like there's a range of success out there with it because of circumstances, money, et cetera. Is this something that, you know, one school can do in another school camp or size not to? Well, local control is definitely alive and well in Vermont. And I would offer that it is not optional to do a proficiency-based learning at this point. The way in which it is implemented is a local lies decision. And so you may be thinking of a traditional report card as like, look, we all had A's, B's or C's and now it's one, two, three, four and the IB school used to use one through seven. And like it seems like, you know, where's the consistency are people doing things differently? And the answer is they are doing things differently and actually they always have, right? Because in A in one teacher's class might have been something totally different in another teacher's class. And an A in one school might have been a 93 and it might have been a 96 at a different school. And so the idea that there was like, in traditionally a lot of consistency in the way in which learning was represented, I would pose is not actually that accurate. And it's about the way in which the learning is communicated and ensuring that that is communicated really clearly in a school profile and in an easy to read transcript so that whether it's the college receiving it the university is receiving it or the parent or guardian at home who's receiving those reports they can understand whether it's red, white and blue one, two, three, four or A, B, C what that means for their student. How do you measure your success in this idea of success or failure? Because we did look early on with test scores. We know Vermont schools are in a crisis. We know schools in the United States based on those scores are in a crisis. How do you look back and say, can you point to anything that says, hey, this is making things better for these kids? Yeah, I would say gaining some testimony around Act 77 successes and there are plenty of new challenges there all the time and some opportunities for improvement as always. But I think that there are examples over a decade now of students having really incredible opportunities that are paired with Act 77 and proficiency based learning. And I think your question is a really good one for us as a state to think about when we pass laws what are our measures of success going to be and how are we going to check in on them on a regular basis? And I think that that is a healthy question to be asking on any of our legislation, including this. And the other piece that I could point to more tangibly, Senator Campion, is I'll just tell a quick story that when we implemented in full in 2017 in Montpilier High School, I announced it to families and they threw fastballs at me for a couple of hours one night. And then I announced it to the students and the seniors in the front row had a total meltdown. And I did my best to reassure them that they were gonna be okay. And then I set up a lunch hour in the science classrooms that anyone who has questions I will answer your questions every day for as long as I need to. So for a few months, I answered student questions, I sat in lunch, I heard the frustrations, I sat through some tears with students and tried to reassure them as best I could. And then later that year, one of our students was fully accepted into Princeton with a full ride. And shortly thereafter, the questions stopped, kids stopped coming to a lunch hour and there was a lot of calm and reassurance in the community. And I would say at this point, there are six, seven years of graduating classes who have been accepted in universities all over the country and beyond that would be success stories as well. No mention of our CTE centers which do a great job on this front as well. Any final questions for Mike at this point? All right, thanks for jumping in. I know having you on reminded me, I think during my first year in this chair, you joined us as well and we'll look forward to keeping in contact as we kind of dig into this. Absolutely, I appreciate the chance and I appreciate the chance to meet with you digitally today. Next time, I'll be sure to be there in person but this affords me the chance to continue to connect with our membership all over the state today. And it was a busy week. So thank you for the chance to join remotely and I will be at house at tomorrow. So I'm sure I'll see you soon. Great, thank you very much. Committee, we are now going to move on to universal school meals. We are going to have to start to think about what we do or do not want to do with this. This is, we're going to hear today from some more food service folks. And then tomorrow, I think we're going to hear from teachers and others, principals, et cetera. But just know that, I can't believe it, we're in week five here and we'll have to move a bill in the next couple of weeks if we want to continue this program. So just keep it in mind, no pressure right now, but we're going to, first here for more, you know, meal, we're going to bring all three in a third here. That's eight, it's quite true. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to send you out, yeah. Thank you. Maureen, it's great to see you. Brooke, it's great to see you. Thank you both so much for joining us. We have Maureen first, and I just want to hear from everyone, just for five or 10 minutes, how the universal school meals is working in your general region with your work. What you're seeing on the ground, we've heard from other school nutrition experts, food service directors, I've heard about from them in my morning committee in agriculture, and frankly, I've heard some compelling things. You know, I've heard things like visits to the nurses office are down, stomach aches are down because kids have free breakfast, hearing that, you know, this is, some money is coming from local, some food's coming from local farms. I think we heard about, I don't know, a little under a million dollars being used by local farms. So just curious what's happening out there, the good, the bad, the ugly. And so Maureen, if you don't mind kicking it off and telling us what you're seeing, that'd be great. Absolutely, thank you so much, and thank you for having me. I watched the videos or the testimonies of my colleagues, and everybody has really filled you in well. I am, just so you know, I've been a school food service director here in Southern Vermont since 2009. Before that, I was in the restaurant industry for over 30 years, owning my own and managing many places. And, but right now, I gotta tell you, I love, love, love feeding kids. And the more we can feed them, the better off we are. I'm gonna take a different perspective because we are CEP in Southern Vermont and have been since 2016. So that's community eligibility provision. And that is where it's kind of set up. That's how Doug was talking to you yesterday about schools had to either be a CEP or provision one during this whole cycle that we're doing for universal meals. But we've been feeding our kids for free down here since about 2016. And it's a formula that's based on already incentives that families already have like SNAP benefits, et cetera. So I actually, when I pulled kids and asked them about the meals and eating and stuff, they can't even remember not eating for free, even the high school kids. However, to reiterate when I go back to nurses and teachers that remember it, they're like, oh, please don't let us ever go back. Just reiterating all the things they say about nurses visits and belly aches and learning. And because we're free, we have a high participation rate for our district. I feed over 32, 3,300 meals a day. We can do breakfast in the classroom at an equitable rate, being that like when you do a breakfast in the classroom and some kids pay and some kids don't, it's kind of hard for that to work out well. And now with breakfast in the classroom, all the kids basically eat and the teachers love it because they're not like scurrying to the cafeteria and getting all hyped up and take off their clothes. They cut either warm clothes, I'm gonna put it that way, their winter clothes. And they get to have a calmer moment with them and their days start better and they know they're being fed and starting at the day off right. I want to, so I am part of a Facebook group called Confessions of Lunch Ladies and Our Lunchmen. And yeah, it's kind of a cool place if you ever wanna really catch up on any of this. And the other one is tips for school meals at rock. But there are many, many, many places in the United States that aren't doing the universal meals. And daily, there are people that are screaming about back debt and it falls on the cafeteria people to collect that old debt. And so I thought maybe I just read you a couple of their kind of things they've been saying. One said, well started today, alternate lunch for anyone over $30 negative and alternate lunches are usually a sack lunch. And that could be a bag lunch. But then because you can't food shame, a lot of these kids in many of these districts are called to the office and given their sack lunch so that they can bring it into the cafeteria and not be embarrassed by it. Here's one, my family does not qualify for free and reduced but can't afford lunches. My husband got a raise that literally placed us over by $300 with everything going up we're always in the hole, we can't afford lunch. Someone says, I miss the free lunches, lunches for all the kids. We had more actually coming in and eating. The same kids now are sitting at the table with nothing in front of them now. It makes me sick to see no kids should ever have to worry about their next meal. And I can read tons of these to you, or you can look at it, it's just really sad. And it's heartbreaking to me, the school cafeteria is a heart of any school. The cafeteria, we'd swear the kids get fed and they get the smiles on their faces and kids can't function if they don't eat. And we need equity and equality for all, it's a big thing. So I can't, I won't have to deal with it but my colleagues, if you take away universal meals they're going back to collecting debt. They're going back to kids not having the money and what are we gonna do? And it's not pretty, it's heartbreaking. Maureen, have you started work, I think you've been doing this for a long time but correct me if I'm wrong. The relationship to local farms and local foods, where is that at? Is that something that is part of this equation for all of you? That's what I thought. Maureen, we lost you. We've been working with farms for a long time down here along before Vermont incentive. One of the things I have to say about the Vermont incentive which is very hard for us tip towns is I had great relationships with Moses Farm. I had great relationship with Green River Farm in Massachusetts within 20 miles from Bennington that I can't now get their product from if I'm gonna meet the Vermont incentive. So in a way for us that live on borders it's been a little bit difficult and we've lost some great relationships with people that are just 20 minutes away from us. That's important for us to know. Thanks for sharing that. So right over the board or Moses, you can't answer that. That Green River Farm here, nice. Okay, cool. So yeah, I think it is important to do it. We have done, I heard someone yesterday saying about having the farmers come in because we've been doing it. I've had a farm to school person off and on over the years. I have run in farmers to talk to the kids. Really just try to get back to our economy. Summertime we really can use a lot of the veggies in the program because we're feeding, that's when we grow them in Vermont but we're lucky we have a school garden in our district that we get a lot from. Any questions for Ms. O'Neill, anything at this point? Maureen, you're getting to be legendary status. We mentioned you last week in AG and everybody in the committee I think or the witnesses all know you. So keep up the great work. We really, really appreciate it. Yeah, really appreciate it. And feel free to stay on. Okay, I can't even dinner. I am gonna listen. That's why I couldn't come up, but we're ready. No problem at all. Let's see, Cheryl, I have some written testimony from you here that I'll pass around. Okay, we don't see Cheryl. Brooke, I also have some written testimony from you which I will now also pass around. Okay, Brooke, the floor is yours. Thanks for joining us. Well, I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts with you today. I'm a 24 year veteran educator in the Slate Valley superintendent of schools. And for the record that serves the town's of Fairhaven, Castleton, Benson, Orwell, West Haven, and Huberton, and Addison, and Rutland Counties. We have approximately five schools and not approximately five schools. We do have five schools and 1300 students. Our free and reduced lunch rates range from 35% to 70% in all of those schools, our district average is around 45%. After years of careful consideration and debate, the Slate Valley Board decided to start offering universal meals for all of our children within Slate Valley beginning in the 2019-20 school year. So pre-pandemic, and that was through a combination of community eligibility and provision too, depending on the status of the school. At the time we budgeted an additional $200,000 in our local budget to support this because there was a cost to us being that the majority of our schools were provisioned to and not community eligible. However, due to the pandemic, we did not actually have to expend that money in our local budget due to an increase in the rate of reimbursement we were receiving. So the administration advocated for, and the school board agreed to the adoption of the universal meals for all for the following reasons. We had a significant number of students with mounting student meal debt throughout the district and parents that were not in a position to pay the debt despite our best efforts. Either they just missed the eligibility mark or they just did not feel comfortable filling out the paperwork. Families that may have qualified for free and reduced lunch did not fill out the paperwork due to the perceived stigma. And in the end, the district ended up absorbing thousands of dollars of meal debt for these students. At one time, I believe it was over $10,000. We were seeing a steep decline in the level of participation in the meal program at the high school level due to the stigma attached to or perceived stigma attached to free and reduced lunch status. And the administration really tried hard to work with families to collect the meal debt or to fill out the paperwork, but it began to damage our relationships with those parents, which negatively impacted our students. And per our school lunch charge policy, we were supposed to give those students a cheese sandwich if they had over $5 worth of lunch debt which did not feel good for anybody working in the district. And we all know that hungry students can't access their education in the same way that their peers can. So ultimately the administration and school board felt that all students should have access to high quality nutritious meals every day. The adoption of the universal meals program is one of our greatest accomplishments honestly and something that I'm most proud of. And a recent survey that went out to our family, staff and community when we were trying to set priorities for the FY24 budget, their number one concern was the preservation of universal meals throughout our district. Staff overwhelmingly support it, family support it and the community supports it. So it was again included in our FY24 budget. Since the inception of universal meals in our district we have seen an increase in students eating breakfast and lunch throughout. We have eliminated the countless hours of trying to collect unpaid debt and process forms and overall it has improved the climate and relationships between our schools and family. And most importantly, students are being fed which undoubtedly adds to the positive learning environment. And just as a little antidote, I was having lunch with some elementary school students today and they spoke about free meals and said that is one thing that we should never get rid of in our district. So that was fifth and sixth graders at Castleton Elementary that I had lunch with today. So. Thank you for questions for Ms. Olson-Farrell, anything that's popping up? Please, Senator Boehme. Yeah. Survey results that you shared. Drew, did you, yeah, did you share a survey? Yeah. So recently we surveyed all of our parents, staff and community around the most, the things that were the highest priority for them in going into building our local budget for the next school year. And the number one thing all the group said was universal meals, the free access to the free lunch and free breakfast and to make sure that that was included in our upcoming budget. One of the things we've been hearing a little bit, we have these pages that are in the building. They're eighth graders, they help, they take six or seven weeks and live up in Montpelier and they help with legislative work. Some of them say that there's, in some of their schools, Gatorade is sold, they can access some junk food. I suspect, of course, some of that stuff's gonna happen in some schools, but can you and maybe Maureen just tell us a little bit about what you've got and what kids may or may not have access to? Because part of this is building lifelong learners, preventing obesity, preventing future health issues. I mean, Maureen I'm sure can certainly speak to that. I would just say that we all have wellness policies or are required to have wellness policies in the food that we sell in schools need to meet certain nutritional guidelines. We have to meet the smart snack guidelines put forward by the USDA. Maureen, we're having a little problem hearing you. So all schools sold and all food sold in school has to meet the smart snack guidelines put forth by the USDA. All items actually have to go through a smart calculator and you have to have your sheet that they pass. So when you have your administrative review, everything you have meets the guidelines. Now with that said, there are some things that personally I don't think are, they meet the guidelines. Like I don't think that you could sell the high school a diet iced tea because it doesn't have calories, it doesn't have this or that. I personally don't want to sell that at my high school because I don't think they need it, you know? So, but like those ice beverages are very popular. Some of the low sugar Gatorades, you know, any of the like chips are meet the smart snack. There's certain size, a certain amount of sodium, a certain amount of fat. So nobody, if you're part of the national school lunch program, you are not serving food that does not meet these guidelines. Or if you are, you're gonna be, you know, if when you have your administrative review, you're going to get fined for it or whatever action they want to take. And I would just say that those are a la carte items that students can buy individually in our district. They're not part of necessarily the free meal. Okay, Senator, wait for your hand up. Yeah, I'm just curious about, if you could comment on the stigma of mitigation efforts which you, I think, tried to exercise before you adopted the universal meals into your budget. What did you do and what didn't work? What did work? Just curious. Yeah, pulling students. I mean, there really wasn't anything that worked well, right? The student was still getting, you know, a cheese sandwich, which was very different from what their peers was receiving. So even if they were receiving that sandwich, you know, out of the cafeteria, I mean, they still were, you know, kids still knew. It's very difficult to do that discreetly. Oftentimes staff would just pay for the student's meal. In some cases, that happens, happened a lot because they would feel, you know, sorry for the student and the situation. Didn't want them to feel badly. And so we had a lot of this going on. And in some cases, also staff let those students charge extra money, which was certainly, you know, against our policy, but it was all out of empathy and compassion and certainly things we were trying to wrestle with and also reaching out to families and working with them individually. And, you know, can we help you fill out the paperwork? Can we, you know, do those types of things? But largely we were still left with a thousands of dollars of debt and it just wasn't worth the cost. May I also add that even though what was free and reduced in pay, no, who was free and reduced and who was paid? So even if they were getting a reimbursable meal and even though they're putting their numbers into and there's no like certain color card for free and reduced or whatever, kids know because the kids with money, also like we don't allow it anymore that you could buy a second meal or you could buy just the hamburger and not get a reimbursable meal. Well, you knew those were the paid kids, the free kids, always had to take the full meal in order to be a reimbursable meal. So no matter what you did, kids, the stigma was always there. And even if you're not getting a sack lunch, they knew you were free or reduced student. And they're especially in the middle school, the bullying that goes on at middle school and the making fun of it is really hard and it's a hard age anyways. Once we're in high school, it's kind of like, I don't care, I don't care, whatever, but it's really hard. Sixth, seventh and eighth grade and kids know that you're poor, it's bad. Senator Hushing. Thank you. So I wanted to go back to the kids being indebted for their food. I mean, personally, I think it's a little outrageous that there are children who have debt for food in their schools. And I'm just curious, what happens if that kid or the family isn't able to pay that debt and how much of an impact does that debt actually have on the school's budget? And if you don't have any hard and fast numbers, that's totally fine. Just generally, I'm curious about it. Generally, the school district pays that debt at the end of the school year to, like for example, the Abbey Group, who we have a contract with. So we absorb it. I mean, you could essentially, I guess, if you wanted to take a family to small claims court, but quite frankly, that's not worth the money at most. In the mid area, your debt follows you through. When you graduate, you don't get your diploma. You walk and no diploma until your dad is paid. And you can read that in a Facebook post of mine all over. That's what a lot of people do. Brooke's program is great. We ended up before, we've been to TV for so long now, but a lot of districts won't absorb it. And it follows kids right through till they graduate and they hold back their diploma. Yes, Senator Lisa. I just wanted to actually respond to Senator Ashim's point. I think I heard, and correct me if I'm wrong, that so you budgeted 200,000 just as a, oh, I thought, but in one of your schools or in your district, but the debt, the debt that you experienced at the end of the session was 20,000. Is that, that wasn't the number? Okay. There was some debt. Somebody mentioned the number. It was a debt carried at the end of the year that you just liquidated and... Yeah, I mean, I'd have to get you the hard number, but I believe it was about $10,000. Sorry, I just wanted to... And that first year that we budgeted $200,000 was because we were unsure of exactly how much it, it would cost us. And so we wanted to make sure we had enough funding to cover it. Going into next year, FY24, we are only budgeting $50,000. So that's our new estimate based on, you know, having done this a while now. One, yes, please. Sorry, it was... No, just a quick follow-up. Just a quick, quick follow-up. Do you know of any instances in Vermont where there are families or kids who aren't able to walk or families that are taken to a small claims court over food debt? I'm not aware of any. We don't do that in our district. And I'm not privy to that occurring elsewhere, but I don't know. Okay, thank you. So I've actually had a couple of my constituents reach out to me over this. They don't have a problem with people that cannot afford. They really agree with the meals for everybody. But they ask the question, what about giving everybody a card and the ones that can afford it actually pay for the meals? I know it's an administrative burden, but have you ever tried that? Everybody gets the same card. Some of the people that can't afford it get it for nothing. That takes away the stigma. Well, I think to Maureen's point earlier, I'm not sure that it does because that's essentially, we weren't giving a card, but that's essentially what we were doing before. And those who are eligible for free and reduced have to take a certain amount of food. Like they have to take the main meal, they have to take a milk, they have to take a fruit. I mean, Maureen can probably explain it much better than I can, whereas those who can afford it might only have to buy the hamburger and they don't have to buy the milk and the apple. And so you know right away based on the fact that the cashier is saying to that kiddo, you must take a complete meal that that child is on a free and reduced lunch rate. So there's no way, according to the federal guidelines, to avoid that. Unless I'm missing something, Maureen. No, you're doing well, yeah. I don't, I don't get it. If everybody takes the same meal, they use the same card, the parents that can afford it. Maureen, go ahead. They don't all take the same meal, they don't have to. If you're paying for your food, you don't have to take that reimbursable meal. You could take whatever, you know, you want it theoretically. It's a kids that are eating a reimbursable meal, a free reduced meal that have to take certain components. You have to take three of the five components in order to make a reimbursable meal. And one of those components has to be a fruit and or vegetable, half a cup of fruit and or vegetable. Cheryl, yeah, I just want to pull Cheryl into the conversation. Cheryl, is there something that you want to add to this for the next few minutes that you have not heard? You're also, I believe, from the same district, perhaps as Brooke. So I don't know if there's something else, just looking at our clock, if you want to take a few minutes and say a few words. Oh, thank you, appreciate that. Yes, I'm currently at the Slate Valley District. I was, for six years, I worked in Burlington. And then for 13 before that, I was over at Rutland City. So I've seen a lot of this. I actually ran a school store and in 2014, that's when everything had to change and everything, you know, had to be a certain, you know, all the guidelines changed. So everything had to be more nutritious. And so we actually, I think a lot of the school stores closed because of that. And then also I was a culinary arts instructor. So we weren't allowed to sell to students because we also had to follow, you know, very strict guidelines as well as you don't want to be selling food to students. And again, the same thing, right? Some students can buy and some students can't. So I think what I think were, well, what I care about mostly is the equity. And I think even if you had students pay for their meals, things change, right? So somebody loses their job and then, okay, now I have a card, but now I'm not paying. And so that's what just bothers me. I worry about how the kids are, you know, it's just one more worry that they have to deal with. And as a teacher, I see a lot of the things they're dealing with already. And to have to not worry about, you know, am I going to have to pay for my meal or not? That's what's important to me. Senator Guler. I think I want to just follow up on Senator Williams's question because I've been asked the same question. Is there a program in between the federally funded pre-introduced lunch and universal school meals in Vermont? And if there isn't, can we make one? Because I'm asked the same question. What is this going to do to my property tax amount and why can't the rich kids pay for their own meal? I am in favor of, I'm in favor of this program. Don't get me wrong, but I am being asked that same question. And I think, is there something in between these two programs that might be possible using technology? You don't even need a card. Maybe everyone just walks in. Well, we did just, and I'm sorry to interrupt, I just asked Ledge Council to just give us a sense if there are families out there, because we have heard this a little bit, want to make a donation, want to participate in some way. Are there any legal barriers to somebody writing a check for $500 for a universal school meal? Something like that to the school district. And so we'll pull that apart with Ledge Council. I think we've probably also heard the same thing you've heard and Senator Bullock is talking about. So that wouldn't necessarily interrupt what you all are doing. You said that when we became CEP, when it was first offered, I think it was in 2015, when you only could do it school by school, and then 2016, I think it's when you could do it as a district. We waited to do it by a district because some kids and families, the same family might go to Bennell and Molly Stark because they live with one parent or another parent, or they actually get kicked around so much, they might be living in Poundall for a month, then they're in Chasbury for a month, then they're in Bennington for a month, or then they have one kid that goes to an elementary school, the middle school, and high school. So some could eat for free, some couldn't eat for free. So that's why we waited for the CEP, we could do them all. But at first, that was a question that everybody said, oh, why is that doctor's kid eat for free? Why does that blah, blah, blah, blah? And at the first year, we had a lot of those questions. After that, it was never asked again because of equality, equity, the kids all feeling the same on the same level, the teachers, the calmness that comes in the classroom from being able to do breakfast in the classrooms, the not having to worry about your kids being sick every day. I mean, I know you hear that, we've said it so many times, but it's true. And it's a basic essential like a book. There's no difference between a kid eating every day that having a Chromebook and having a book to read. And that's how we all feel in this world we live in, work in, and hope you guys do too. So just to clarify, Maureen, our district, it was over a certain, it had a certain number of students in poverty that allowed you the funding to start universal meals well before, like you said, COVID-19, we're over three years. Yeah, it's a formula, yeah. Brooke, that's the same with you, your internship. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Committee, any final questions for our guests or comments? So please, Senator Hushin. Okay, thank you. Thank you Maureen. Thank you so much. Thank you for considering it. I really appreciate it. Senator Hushin. Yeah, no, just a final comment. I mean, I've already enthusiastically supported universal school meals, so I'm just going to go ahead and do that again. You know, one thing that I was thinking about though is, you know, we've been talking about, you know, test scores dropping. We've also been talking about mental health issues in school rising. And, you know, this isn't something that's going to magically fix all of that, but it's definitely one of the basic needs that kids need, that kids should have if they're going to have successful test scores, if they're going to be in a healthy state of mind while going through school. And again, you know, I'm not naive to think this is going to fix everything, but it is one step that we can take to help the kids. Senator Moon. Just one more comment is that I've heard from the superintendents about the school districts that can't get their school budget passed, and it gets defeated four times. So, I kind of like the idea of everybody gets a card, and everybody takes the same meal. And that wasn't something I solicited. That was somebody from your district that came to me and told me that she didn't support this. She supports universal school meals, but not for the people that can afford it. And I think, if I can just start, I think, you know, what you had mentioned earlier about trying to find out what, you know, the people who have the means, what they can do to chip in and, you know, do their part to help out folks with less means, I think that sounds like a great idea. It does also sound like there's challenges with federal regulations, but, you know, if there's ways to work around it, I think it's worthwhile to explore. Yeah, and they're making back, I'm back and say, hey, it's just not going to work, but there might be something there. Yeah, yeah. Anything else? I know a number of meetings start at 4.30, so I think we'll leave it there. Cheryl and Brooke, thanks very much. Midi, thank you very much. We'll pick up tomorrow on a number of different fronts, but for now, we are adjourned.