 Good day. Hello everybody. Good morning some places. Good evening other places My name is Marilyn McBride aka Merrill Johnson Professor of Geography Colorado State University and Accompanied me today is Steven Zootfleet aka Steven Geyser scholar outside of academia Happy 15th anniversary everybody Anyway, Steven and I are here today to join in the celebration of science circles anniversary by presenting a talk that we hope epitomizes the purpose and collaborative potential of science circle We propose to explore the meaning of diffusion from a perspective of a geographer and a biologist We look at how diffusion for geographers helps to transform the static map Into a dynamic presentation of special processes at work and how the half or biologist species Tend to adapt to places over time, but eventually branch out from ancestors Our goal is to contextualize and to validate groups like the science circle for this type of exploration Exploration and to illustrate how the science in science circle can be defined in a manner That brings together the ideas of two people from seemingly disparate academic traditions in the process We hope to provide the basis for a discussion of how organizations like science circle may provide a model for the virtual future next Geographers focus on space place and interaction in terms of space Geographers look at the map in terms of its points lands and areas and they ask questions that include What is located where on the map? Why is it located where it is and? So what what is its significance? Specific pieces of space or places on the map can be found at fixed locations Reflect a particular locale or material setting in which people conduct their lives and often produce a Sense of place that creates meaning There's interaction among places and within spaces The map that we see may look static as in the displayed map of Colorado but the static Present representation reflects myriad processes that work on points lines and areas one such process but geographers refer to as Spatial diffusion has done more than most processes to make the static-looking map Into a dynamic expression of human behavior over space next Spatial diffusion is defined according to moral at all as Quote the process by which behavior or characteristics of the landscape change as a result of what happens elsewhere earlier Spatial diffusion is the spread of a phenomenon over space and time from limited origins in quote the phenomenon that is spread can be animate as In migration of wild horses to North America or in animate spread of volcanic ash What can be the spread of an idea trait or practice? For example spread of mixed farming from the Middle Atlantic to the Midwest in the United States The nature of the spread will depend on a variety of factors in play Including those that facilitate the spread and others that inhibit the spread next geographers generally think of spatial diffusion in terms of one Contagious diffusion the spread of something across the map like a wave spreading from a rock falling in the water Or perhaps from a person sneezing germs on a neighbor spreading a disease Second hierarchical diffusion the spread of a phenomenon over space from large urban centers Down the hierarchy to small towns. It's happened with TV adoption and third Relocation diffusion the spread of a phenomenon over space as a person migrates or relocates To another place as for example when a religious community moves to a new place In reality most diffusion processes involve more than a single type of spread and we may be able also to Identify other types of diffusion than those listed here next Spatial diffusion can be erratic layered or even blocked depending on the setting and the barriers present For example I like with other North American culture hearts the French Canada hearth was associated With little spatial diffusion beyond its St. Lawrence River core By the way geographers use the word hearth to describe core areas or areas of origin for the spread process Pockets of French speech appeared in the Red River area of Southern Manitoba and Northern New Brunswick, but that was about it in terms of major diffusion Minor spread occurred throughout Canada as the displayed map indicates The royal presence of English speaking settlers Especially with the loyalist flow after the American Revolution Created its own spatial diffusion process that no doubt interrupted any such ambitions by French speakers In recent history Instead of spatial diffusion the Quebec provincial government attempted to block language diffusion By enacting laws restricting the use of English in Quebec as a method of Strengthening the French speaking presence Perhaps what we can call a siloing, which is my term or counter diffusion initiative within Quebec Different types of spatial diffusion may affect the same region over time a lowering effect such as in Europe Southern Europe the southward migration of slit of the Balkan Peninsula beginning in Roughly the 4th century AD that helped to split What was left of Roman influenced southern Europe? Ironically the Slavic penetration was later split by Hungarian speakers yet a new layer Next we can look at the spread of the Indo-European language Ethnolinguistic group as an illustration of spatial diffusion dynamics The proto-Indo-European languages probably appeared About six thousand years ago in the Ukraine Caucasus Black Sea region for competing theories and geographies exist spreading to the west in Europe and then to the southeast into South Asia the unified proto-Indo-European language core or hearth probably last its separate identity somewhere between Maybe thirty four hundred and three thousand years BC as the Indo-European branches or families emerged Or shall we say we're specially diffused throughout Europe Modern Lithuanian may be the closest remnant of proto-Indo-European speech along with left in or let us Lithuanian belongs to the modern Baltic family of Indo-European speech Next These linguistic branches or families Took on their own characteristics over time that represented growing departures from their proto-Indo-European roots The Slavic family stayed relatively close to home in Eastern Europe Until the South Slavs ventured toward the Mediterranean to become Yugoslavs The Greeks appeared on the Balkan Peninsula and stayed And stayed though their influence spread westward across the Mediterranean Basin and eastward into Asia The Germanic or Turkic family diffused to the west north of the Alps Only to be split further through space and time to provide the speech of Scandinavians Dutch Germans and yes Even the English at least technically The Romans family worked its way through Southwestern Europe Extending northward into France and stranding a Romanian outlier in Eastern Europe By the way the French took on English speakers beginning in 1066 They called it a day after about 300 years of Unsuccessfully trying to spread the niceties of French speech to the English Robert of the countryside The Celtic family or Celtic family Settled the misfortune of losing its presence in Central Europe to the overwhelming contagious diffusion of Roman invasions probably beginning about 50 years BC Which supplanted Celtic Gaulish with Roman Latin? The insular Celts of the British Isles nearly suffered the same fate after centuries of outside invasions leading them today to occupy pockets of identity in Scotland, Wales and mainland Britain Ireland retains the most successful modern Celtic imprint, but only in the face of past English headwinds We think of the spatial diffusion of Indo European speech as an example of Relocation diffusion people moving from the Indo European core and taking their language with them But in reality, we should not rule out major episodes of contagious and hierarchical diffusions The Latin alphabet for example became the written form of Indo European speech in Western Europe Thanks to the contagious diffusion of Christianity by missionaries The same can be said for the Cyrillic alphabet and the Eastern Orthodox Church Christianity was initially diffused to urban areas for reasons of safety and efficiency Suggesting a process of hierarchical diffusion at work in its ultimate spread In addition the spatial diffusion of Indo European speech did not reach or was repelled by somebody by some groups Nobody's sure for example where the Basque of Northern Spain and Southwestern France derived their language Maybe it is a relic language that preceded the Indo European speech spread across Europe Maybe the speakers were too remote to be absorbed by the spatial integration processes of Indo European speakers Regardless the process involved The spatial diffusion of the Indo European language in Europe was accompanied by linguistic drift over time Spatial isolation of populations from the core from each other because of distance and or physical Settings led to linguistic changes that produced mutually unintelligible languages that were spawned from the same source These differences suggested the profound effect of physical settings limited transportation technology and perhaps the stickiness of places on the spatial diffusion process over time Indeed a Corollary influence on drift through isolation may be the effect of the old places and their different settings on the new places and the Indo European speech To cite a simple example using North America While colonial Americans and the British spoke the same language and still do sort of Changes occurred to the language in the new world changes had to occur There was no guide for example and what to call a moose or raccoon or chipmunk American places influence therefore the effects of drift We should not overlook of course how politics played a role in post-colonial America with champions of the new Republic arguing in favor of a new American English or perhaps even a new language Some argue for adopting French for example Since they help to rescue the American cars or maybe even a totally different language Believe it or not like Hebrew or something We know how it all ended though Americans replace the O you in many words with an O reverse the R and the E at the ends of other words and Ultimately insisted on building cars with hoods instead of bonnets Next please But what about when physical barriers and transportation technologies or less of a limitation? What does spatial diffusion look like? We can answer that question at least partially by looking at the modern globalization process Borrowing from Peter Dickens in 2015. We can say that globalization refers to the process that is making the world more integrated and interdependent and potentially more uniform this process involves a spread of ideas technologies goods and potentially cultural values In addition, we also associate the spread of neoliberal ideas relative to the production of goods and the implementation of development strategies The globalization process has been around for some time We think of the long 16th century roughly 1450 to 1650 Part of the age of discovery as an example of a global spread process The industrial revolution took on global proportions Where did the British, for example, get the cotton for their textile mills? Karl Marx wrote in global terms as he planted the seeds of revolution and fellow revolutionaries like the women and mouths spread the seeds By 1914 hardly anywhere in the world was not influenced by Somewhere else in the world Today, however, we tend to focus on the last several decades Maybe as far back as the 1950s, but certainly by the 1970s when we think of globalization This was a globalization process shaped by the explosive innovation and great convert convergence in communications and computer technology Leading to satellite-based communications the internet smart phones and countless other enhancements to the spatial diffusion process Compendent transportation innovations the longer incoming accelerated the spatial diffusion process especially after World War two with the introduction of the jet age Next please What does the great convergence and the new transportation age mean for spatial diffusion processes? the so-called friction of distance a commonly used term by geographers that Defined and limited earlier spatial diffusion has all but disappeared in terms of communication and Has been dramatically mitigated by modern transportation The fundamental mechanisms of spatial diffusion processes may remain the same, but the outcomes in the 21st century May be dramatically different Is there still room for contagious diffusion? Ask our friends who engage in social media Relocation diffusion still exists as people carry with them their existing culture to new places But relocation is a lot faster and a lot less isolating Hierarchical diffusion can be seen in the spread of the internet from urban to rural settings Along with the spread of cell phone towers Are there still Changes resulting from drift If there is still spatial drift it may look differently from past forms That were responses to isolation and new settings The effects of drifts drift Maybe less important than the stickiness my term of Places and their traditions next The stickiness issues suggest that spatial diffusion arising from globalization processes may have limits We may ask how much uniformity has resulted from globalization Places and their people can be stubbornly resistant to change rejecting change altogether or modifying it in some way to conform with local traditions and settings but the slide shows a juxtaposition of a globalized girl in her Spandex whatever sitting next to a woman Perhaps the girls mother dressed in traditional attire What if the mother had a cell phone in her pocket? What would this say about the diffusion process? in other cases The diffusion associated with globalization may be parodied either winningly or unwittingly a Shown by the McDonald's takeoff in the Mac cheaper sign. Yes. They were selling hamburgers Okay, Stephen Continue talking about this diffusion in terms of biologists. Thank you, Meryl So for the second half I as a molecular biologist want to tie together these ideas of how diffusion is Considered within the biological sciences in particular genetics and evolution so some key points if you think about just what evolution and Genetics really is it's the study of genes and populations of organisms It also includes the study of looking back Of what their history was and where they had been through time and how those changes have occurred And then really trying to understand Why they're different the how they became that way and how that's important to their biological function and characteristics really ultimately is fundamentally the The basic characterization of evolution and biology and so in particular The origin of new species is something that is highly interconnected and related to this understanding of diffusion both of Organisms as well as the genes that they carry I'd like to start with a relatively classic and easy to visualize example of bear evolution and what you see on the slide The y-axis represents time and what you can see over time is the branching from a progenitor bear Species again one single species that ultimately over time gave rise to severaly phenotypically behaviorally and genetically distinct types species of bear and so this is one representation and looking at the Diffusion of genes primarily over time But this doesn't tell the whole story that what is also very relevant to understanding bear evolution and really evolution in general is That these different bear species have adapted Locally to the environment that they're currently in and so The classic example being or the most obvious example being the polar bear is one that has now Adapted white coloration and able to help blend into the background of the Arctic snow But another really interesting example is the panda bear Panda bear being one of the most unique type of evolutionary shifts where it's gone from being a carnivore To only feeding on one specific type of plant the bamboo and they are very specifically located within China and so this is one of the key parts is that the genes have Diversity in them and then that diversity is adapted to over time their geography So the basic way of thinking about evolution is what are the barriers to allowing now separate species to actually reproduce with each other and So one term for this is known as pre zygotic isolation and these are isolation mechanisms where Even if species are closely related, they are just isolated in a way that they're not going to interact One of the best examples of this is allopatric Speciation in which a geographic barrier comes between to One population of a species and then they're separated and then over time they drift away from each other One very I think example that many people would be familiar with is with theropod dinosaurs While there are examples of theropods older In the geological history that you do see some separation for tyrannosaurus rex being more North American Spinosaurus being I think more African and that distinction has occurred Because the continents drifted away from each other and so even though there was one common species of progenitor species of theropods on the mega continent as those drifted away those differentiated and drifted and diffused in a way to become quite separate another type of example and This is something similar to what you might have seen with the distribution of front of French in Canada is this parapatric Where there's a large original population and then They can move away from each other in a way that a small population will diverge from that one There are other examples of habitat isolation though. So one example of temporal is the fact that they They moths will not interact with nighttime flying moths and so you can exist in the same space but because of other Temporal interactions you actually don't interact There are other types of sexual isolation behaviors as well. So as you think about certain tropical islands There are multiple species of birds or perhaps multiple species of even you know aquatic birds of penguins on them but Because they have developed very specific and separate mating patterns. They will not interact and crossbreed with each other Other examples of this are mechanical isolation Where the actual physical characteristics of the body do not allow them to breed And then there are other examples of comedic isolation, which are a little more chemical and chemistry related but I think the best example of that would be with flowers and pollination that you can have Multiple types of flowers even ones that are relatively closely related to each other in terms of species But because the pollen becomes very specific to that species It will not cross fertilize with other species. And so these are all factors that vary into Jeans becoming separate such that the species are distinctly separate from each other There are other factors and powers that lead to what are called post-psychotic isolation that even if there is breeding or copulation or even progeny then those cannot carry on those genes to yet another generation and One of the most well-known examples of this is the breeding of donkeys with horses to create mules and so What's interesting about this is that mules cannot reproduce sexually Well, there are some very rare instances in which you can have progeny but the reason for this is that the number of chromosomes between the horse and the donkey are different and so the process of making Useful gametes against sperm and egg from the mule does not work properly And so that's an example of from biology an enforcement of how a species actually stays its own species So now there's an interesting aspect to also to the mule and other examples you find like this Which is this idea that there's more that the mules are more vigorous that again when it comes to going on Long treks where you have to carry a lot of heavy equipment or food mules are the preferred Carry for those because of their harness and so there's this interesting concept in biology of the hybrid vigor Which I will come back to a little bit later There are another interesting example of admixture where as far as we know, they're probably closely related enough to have progeny It's not been clear. This is a relatively recent phenomenon Is the interbreeding of polar bears and grizzly bears in Northwest American continent So here's an example one that was hunted and caught and trapped and then off obviously stuffed in the end is that the What's interesting here and while it's not clear whether this will or will not become his own species is that it's a clear blending of characteristics where while The loss of pure white fur may lead to the lack of ability to have that cryptic camouflage one reason that this has been driven is the fact that The ice is disappearing and so one reason why polar bears and grizzly bears are interacting more is because of the change in the environment the change in what's happening so that there's more Contact between the two species in that geography. And so what's interesting here is that? Are some of the best characteristics like you have with the mule is there gonna be success That's driven by the fact that you have a blending of two different species together Can you get the best of grizzly bears and the best of polar bears to lead to? Some sort of maybe new blended species that becomes the most adapted to that new environment And there are other advantages to admixture as well So this idea of separate species or separate populations within the species Remixing their genetics is some is a term that is admixture and here's an example in our species homo sapiens that in the past human populations have diffused across the world they've adapted to local environments and Their genes have become distinct in different ways One of these distinctions is what's known as the major histocompatibility complex, which is involved in immunity and here's a map Demonstrating a bit colorized distributions of different type of MHC class alleles in these different populations And if you look at the numbers carefully you can see that some are very highly represented in some groups and Then lower represented other groups and vice versa Now it's important to recognize When it comes to the role of the MHC diversity in human health Is that the more diverse your MHC class genes are when you are born The better ability you have to develop immunity to a larger number of antigens And so more MHC class diversity Is a survival benefit for people and so that's one reason why people have developed the idea that Some people are attracted to more exotic human populations is that it's actually a driver a behavioral driver of people trying to Help pass on to their offspring a better capacity for immunology And so this is an example where when you think about the globalization that we have in travel this creates a Opportunity to for admixture to lead to heartier and healthier individuals at least from an immunology point of view Now I will say that this is a little bit distinct Probably from the mechanisms of how hybrid vigor would also work that hybrid vigor may have more to do with gene regulation and Transcription and how much of any given gene you have in your body working and this is across This is a phenomenon seen across multiple species outside of immunology all the mechanisms of it are not fully understood though But speaking of hybrid vigor one of my favorite organisms these days is corn and Well, we do value in many cases this hybrid vigor this ability to add mixture and get more diversity Where evolution can play more on different types of diverse genes to work with We still have many cases where we value The original stock and what I'm showing here is an example of this idea of heritage strains or heritage breeds when it comes to say livestock That there's a lot of value in having something that's highly adapted to one situation where If you have a situation like drought resistant millet that there are things we can learn from How it has become very specialized as a drought resistant species and so when it comes time for our understanding How to make corn better? Say in drought conditions again not adapted to drought all the time but adapted to drought When it becomes a seasonal issue Then we still value these heritage strains And so for example around the world every country and even internationally there's an effort to have what are known as Seed banks and their reason for being is To maintain these heritage genetic stocks so that we might be able to use them and Learn from them for what we do in the larger agricultural industry that we have And I think it's important to recognize that While in many cases genetics can lead to a blending of two characteristics that if you're putting together Diverse genotypes so that you have something that's well, that's highly diverse genetically The important thing from evolutionary point of view is that over time when evolution is trying to act upon and either you know Create this fight for survival for multiple generations of survival of the fittest That's just the mere fact of having more diverse genes in individuals Gives their offspring a greater chance of success. So it's not necessarily a regression to the mean so from just a basic point of view when we think about how diversity and diffusion works within biological thought is that Diffusion of populations and subsequent isolation Gives genes the chance to adapt to the new locality to become highly specialized highly honed so that they are Given the best chance of survival in that situation But that honing also leads to further and further diversity that carries them away farther and farther from the characteristics of the progenitor species and That we do see in cases where you can remix those that you can have a new set of diversity that allows for opportunities Where that diverse set of that diverse repertoire of genes can then give a subsequent greater amount of survival Or is just highly adapted to that new current environment that doesn't represent the extreme of either one so I'll now transition Now that we've had a conversation about diffusion from the perspective of geography and Diffusion from the perspective of biology We want to move this into a conversation About this concept of diffusion when it comes to concepts or ideas and How those are spread? And so here's one of the first examples in human civilization where the rate of the distribution of information was highly accelerated and so I Does everybody recognize what this particular image is of a Phil has pointed out which Bible though Very specifically the Gutenberg Bible very very well done max that again the formation of the printing press by Gutenberg and then the ability to Replicate information and then distribute it widely and also over time again These are many these examples still exist that you can actually diffuse ideas at a much higher rate than just word of mouth or stone tablets And if we accelerate to modern day What I have here is a representation of the nodes and interactions in the internet And this is a map that you can get from internet hyphen map net anytime But the idea here and what I'm trying to remind you of is that the ability of for information and concepts to Transcend time and space is now at just an amazing exponentially faster rate than what we've ever had before and so then This is an this is you know unprecedented in terms of both biological or geography history in the past And so it's interesting to then reconsider that with this extreme ability to Send ideas out and and then receive them. What does that mean in terms of your community in terms of? Individuality when we think about this both from historical examples of geography as well as biology and so at this point I will hand the conversation back to Meryl to talk about this in virtual worlds Yes it's important to Bring all this together and help us understand the concept of diffusion in terms of The world of virtual worlds that we are existing at the moment Relocation diffusion may involve a move from physical space to virtual space We will carry with us the results of historical processes of spatial diffusion in terms of language and the broader aspects of culture hierarchical diffusion Implies a hierarchy which may require some thinking and creativity To place in social virtual worlds is there a hierarchy for example of spaces and or places in second life Down which spatial diffusion could occur Contagious diffusion will still happen But the spread of an idea across the fence with a neighbor Maybe with a virtual neighbor who actually lives on the other side of the planet It's hard to imagine an impact of drift from isolation in a virtual world There's no difficult to imagine change resulting from the effects of places and their stickiness The social virtual world provides countless opportunities for places to be located and presented with all the unique expressions That may represent combinations of past drift processes and local changes in the physical world On the other hand we should not overlook the possibility that Just as virtual identities may be altered from presence in a social virtual world. So may be virtual places The various types of diffusion may lead to distinctly virtual places We may find ourselves reaching out for virtual equivalence To the colonial American linguistic conundrum regarding the moose raccoon and chipmunk Next oh, yes As it should be we end with a map a Map of countries represented in science circle We're diffused all over the globe Reflecting physical distances of thousands of miles Yet in this room These distances have been collapsed to mere feet and meters from one another In a sense we have experienced a new form of spatial diffusion as we move from our physical settings To our electronic spaces Well in conclusion Our goal in this talk Was to present or open a conversation that honors the mission and promise of virtual world organizations like science circle We're focused on a relatively simple concept spatial diffusion That has a home in both geography and biology Which serves as an illustration of a collaborative potential and brought the scientific endeavor possible in a virtual world setting Could this experience happen in the physical world? Sure, let's just set up a teams meeting But it would not be the same First as Johnson reminded us in the conclusion of her book I Quote online communication and collaboration across all sectors have become standard practice Indeed the world's languages have a new verb to zoom But simply joining a zoom conference is only a partial replacement for being there in quote So stress the words of our colleague Valibur and Greg who maintain that quote The biggest advantage of virtual worlds over say a webinar or zoom is the sense of presence by that I mean We are a shared space that is real Not just peeking through the window into our homes or cafes in the physical world in quote For the more we bring into We bring into a community and interest in collaboration But a form in which we can express our own individualities Second we will remind it time and again about what we can do In a social virtual world in the interest of science and the promoting learning in general that we cannot easily do in the physical world Do you like for example can instruct us on Undersea floor and fauna in real time and in a realistic setting And we don't even have to hold our breaths Finally organizations like science circle form the vanguard of an increasingly friction-free future But it gives new meaning to our understanding of space and Process processes like spatial diffusion This will be exciting Steven back to you. Thank you, Meryl I've really enjoyed this opportunity to work with Meryl Who is not geographically living anywhere near me, but here we are be able to lead a discussion about a group that I think represents this Wonderful future for people to share and collaborate on ideas and yet maintain that individuality throughout and thus maybe we can have a fusion an admixture shall we save ideas to To create something better with that I want to thank Meryl for Spending the time with me Tolerating me to get this talk together and for Chantel hosting in the science circle And now we really just want to leave the rest of this time and whatever time you have available to stick around to discuss some of these questions That we we came up with as pertinent to this said, you know, what is the science circle as a diffuser ideas to you? Are there other groups that help you connect to community or find your individuality either in second life or other types of technology enabled groups and what valuable learning lessons have you had from such a group? So feel free to share in local chat or Even we're even interested in hearing hearing which have to say a voice Well, if you're lying voice now, I want to say one thing. I think said already I think this is a great cross disciplinary approach that you two have taken To explore a particular idea of diffusion as far as science circles concern What I like about science circle and using second life to do that is is is to Practice different outreach and educational ideas. So if I have an idea for a talk, I want to give I can experiment on the captive audience So to speak that's one of the way I look at it Oh, thank you, Sizzigie anyone else representing fossils from the Virginia Museum of Natural History, and I just finished the one Since an act of human natural history on the vertex and so come and check it out It's self tour there's lots of no cards all over the place and I was just telling George many thanks to George for sponsoring and Caltech my museums Since then it was human naturalist I got to visit there last September and there are the process of creating new exhibits So I anticipate with those exhibits might be in December of 2023 and both of them incorporated them into My virtual museum So as I do that things like great motivation extinction event Well, I've got one for Virginia one and actually that's always been one thing I've tried to promote in second life is both museums and cultural heritage centers a Really, I think one of the best representations of ways that people can Interact and cross pollinate and ideas to see what other cultures are about In a very realistic type of way without having to to travel very far Thank you day Yeah, and actually ABBA brings up a good important point to you I think which is not only museums of what's now, but just museums that can track through the past that the ability to recreate things Diffuse as ideas from the past into the present as well question about a Comment you made and it's both a comment and an observation Started second life third Blasdale has said several times that the group in second life is a very dedicated group and I Think it's a very special group Operationally in a certain way. I think a lot of adults aren't yet comfortable with engaging with people Because especially in second life, we're not able to pick up facial and body language in a way that is Adequate for real conversation and for real interaction. Now, what I would like to suggest is I think I mean, I'm very invested in my avatar and I feel like I'm here and I feel like I'm talking to people But a lot of people don't feel that way about it. And I just I guess I'm just talking about it with both an observation and a comment and An interest in what other people have to say about that social virtual worlds definitely I don't acquire taste for a lot of people and I Think it's interesting a lot of younger people if they're not comfortable in their own schemes are going to be very uncomfortable in the skin of an avatar and I recently did some research and Which involved interview of avatars of people and 70% of the respondents were over the age of 50 So That doesn't Now, of course this this the survey was set up probably to View toward the older population, but What I'm leading up to is that the younger population really hasn't developed an interest in this type of interaction in Social virtual worlds Some are interested in avatars if they're a part of a game with objectives and and outcomes and so forth or especially in some cases that they can kill something but this type of of interaction in Social virtual world is a source of fear for some and a source of derision and It's it's really unfortunate. Yeah, and some of my experiences with students There have some that that just really never adapted or quite got with All the valuable aspects of the 3d representation and the sense of presence But I also got the sense that many of them did and then in fact many of them could explore or experience things Outside of what they otherwise could I think You know, I everyone who's explored and gone around second life enough has has met many people with the opportunities to Express your individuality in a way that you can't otherwise has been really valuable for some people Well, let me I'll add one more comment to that last week I had to I had the privilege of Telling our geography majors at CSU When I did with my research life, I knew what was going to be interesting and so I went through the basics of social virtual worlds and I did see The eyes light up of a small group of that student population and so to Steven's point. Yes. I think there is that group out there Although to be fair to Rosdale and Simo to your to your point that You know the the inability to have Facial expressions and in some cases say dripping sarcasm and voice that you can't per se do in chat Is an example that can be limiting But I think what's interesting is in some ways We look at the syntax and language that develops around people trying to convey sarcasm That new standards develop as long as everyone kind of understands that people are again like in biology adapting to an environment to have it be everything that you are used to From the real world in fact, you know, one of the barriers to facial expressions. We all Have probably experienced facial expression hud's or best things that you would have in Second life that you could do this. It's just a bit unwieldy to do in real time. So again one day You know the technology will keep adapting I think to to meet those needs if it's considered important enough Anyone else or any other comments? Yeah, I would not speak type of needs We've sort of come to the end of the hour And let me also thank Steven for Joining with me in this in this exercise You know since I've known Steven I've learned some important things like how to spell genetics and So this was a lot of fun and I appreciate Shantae the opportunity to participate in this