 regular meeting of the 2017-2018 Common Council to Order. Would the clerk please read the quote for the day? Thank you, Mayor. Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad. Thank you very much. Would the clerk please call the roll? There are 12 present. OK, Alderperson, Marca Savalio, Andy Schneider, John Bellinger, and Mike Damro are all excused this evening. Next, we'll move on to the presentation of the colors by Boy Scout Troop 890 and 804 from St. Clements and Holy Family Parishes. Evan Heslink and J.T. Rowley will be bringing the colors up. Please proceed, gentlemen. Stand. Gentlemen, you want to come back up? And you can lead us in the pledge, then. There's a microphone right there. Please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. As an American, I will do my best to do my duty, to God in my country, to obey the Scout law, to help other people at all times, and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. Scout law, a scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, reverent, be prepared. Thank you very much. Next, we have a program on Boy Scout Day, which is coming up soon by Chris Weber, the VSA Boy Scout Council District Director. Chris, please come forward. All right. Thank you, Marin. Thank you, Council, for giving me the chance to appear and speak to you tonight, to talk a little bit about our local scouting units. And then also a big event. We have coming up this Saturday on the city of Sheboygan. To start out, again, my name is Chris Weber. I'm the District Director of the Lakeshore District. Our district is part of the Bay Lakes Council, which is one of the hundreds of councils across the United States. Now, we make up Manitowoc, Sheboygan, and Calumet counties. We serve just under 2,500 young people. And we have 75 scouting units in that three-county area, 21 of which come from the city of Sheboygan. Now, we serve boys all the way from kindergarten, all the way up until they're 21 years of age, through three different stages of the program. We have cub scouting, boy scouting, venturing, exploring, and sea scouts. It's kind of that last stage all meshed together. So a number of opportunities for our young people to experience and learn some skills, values, that they might not come across, and definitely in different settings as well. We are a volunteer-driven organization. We rely on our great volunteers to provide an excellent program for our boys. And that's what we're here to promote tonight. We are trying to get some excitement around an event we brought back last year, Sheboygan Scout Day. Now, in the past, we would have all of our troops, packs, and crews in the city get together for a one-day event to promote scouting. And that's what we're doing this Saturday at the Land Park. We are gonna have our packs there showcasing what they do best. We're gonna have mock campsites, cooking. We're gonna have Pinewood Derby, Rain Gutter Regatta, and a number of other events to show what scouts do best in the community. The public's been invited. We've been firing all the schools. We've been promoting it on social media. And we've been talking about it at our different meetings in the community and online as well. It's gonna be a really great experience. We're gonna start the day off at 10 a.m. and it's gonna run until 4 p.m. Again, it's open to families young and old and it's gonna be a great time for all. Do we have any questions? Anyone? What time does it start? It's gonna start at 10 a.m. on Saturday to Land Park. It's gonna run until four. We have Boy Scout Troops, Cub Scout Packs. They're gonna be doing a number of different events throughout the day, like I said, cooking. We're gonna have different skills that the scouts have been practicing, different knots. We're gonna have a rope bridge and a number of different things for folks in the community to come out and do. Alderperson Bourne, did you have a question? No, I didn't. Okay, well thank you very much for your presentation today and good luck with the event this weekend. Thank you. Next we'll move on to approval of the minutes from our last council meeting, Alderperson Wolfe. Thank you, Mayor. I make a motion to approve the minutes. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, please signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion passes. Next is the Mayor's appointments for the King Park neighborhood. City Attorney. We have two appointments, one primary, one alternate. The primary is Scott Hansen. The alternate is Grazia Pirella, appointed September 18, 2017 for the term to expire April 30, 2018. And those appointments will lie over till our next meeting. Next is Public Forum, City Clerk. Aye. Excuse me, yes, we have one person this evening, Delcy Johnson. Delcy, if you could come up, please. And Delcy, I need your home address. 1306 North Third Street, Sheboygan. Thank you, and you will have five minutes. I'm here to present my annual State of the City's Ambulance Service. Based on data received in an FOIA request to finance director Nancy Bus for expenses and revenues related to the operation of the ambulance service in 2016. For those who are new to the council, I will explain in detail how I have arrived at my conclusions. I have rounded the figures. Operating three ambulances 24-7 requires 21 firemen, but the ambulance budget only includes salaries and benefits for the four newest hires. Salaries and benefits for the four firemen was $346,000. Using that as a base, salaries and benefits for 17 additional firemen would be $1,472,000. EMS calls accounted for 78% of the incidents that the department responded to. 78% of 1,472,000 is 1,148,000. Total expenses were $1,762,000. This includes $106,000 for leasing the ambulances and $77,000 for contracted billing services. Total billings were $3,062,000. Actual collections were $903,000 or 29% of billings. That means your constituents subsidized 71% of the ambulances for city and non-city users. Your constituents never paid a subsidy to Orange Cross. Orange Cross absorbed the loss. Subtracting expenses from revenues results in a loss of $860,000. The loss would be much greater of administrative costs and the higher salary and benefit costs for the 17 additional firemen were included. The amount calculated for the firemen is based on the salary and benefits of $87,000 each for the four newest hires, an increase of $7,000 per hire. However, the average salary and benefits for the 17 additional longer serving firemen would be higher. Also, the figures do not include any administrative costs. It takes more than four firemen and an ambulance to operate the service. Deputy Chief Butler was hired late in 27 to run the ambulance service, but his salary and benefits are not included in the ambulance budget. I did not seek salary and benefit figures for any administrative personnel. But if those costs and the higher salaries and benefits for the 17 firemen were added, the actual cost to providing the ambulance service would be much higher and the loss much greater. At the time the city decided to take over the ambulance service, a story in the Sheboygan Press on May 30th, 2007, noted, and I quote, if the service loses money, city fire officials will cut the department's budget to make up for the loss, end of quote. Of course, it's easier to avoid that situation when you don't include all your expenses. In 2016, the department responded to 61 building fires with five stations, that's one call, per station, per month, or 1% of the incidents. Given that, it is hard to justify the department plan to add six more firefighters in the next two years. As the Fitch and Associates Representative pointed out at the committee of the whole meeting, the council needs to decide how to balance the risk with the taxpayers' capacity to pay for protection. Whenever there is a discussion of changing the number of firemen or stations, the union's mantra is always, minutes matter. But half of the firemen do not live in the city and depend on volunteers to protect their families and property. Evidently, minutes don't matter if you're a fireman living outside the city. I keep repeating this because no one has ever been able to explain this to me. When the department took over the ambulance service in 2007, Cory Bauck had just been elected to the council. His home was on the alleged walking quorum path. He was cooking out in his backyard when he was approached by then Mayor Perez, then Chief Lutowski, and I believe Alderman Giesha and Hannah, seeking his endorsement of the city assuming the ambulance service from Orange Cross. The plan was to suspend the rules and vote on it at the very first council meeting without any knowledge or input from the citizens. As it turned out, the public became aware and the vote was postponed to allow some time for citizen input. I was disappointed that Alderman Bauck voted in favor of the change. I had campaigned for him because I thought he would be a good addition to the council. Excuse me, Delcy, your time is up. Can I have an extra minute? Please finish. He and I had many discussions about the ambulance service. One of them landed on the front page of the press. When he left the council a few years ago, I was very surprised when he said to me, I was wrong. I should never have voted for the ambulance service. Thank you. Thank you, Delcy. That's it for public time. Thank you very much. Next, we move on to our presentation. The city recently received a special citation from the Government Finance Officers Association and it reads, Distinguished Budget Presentation Award presented to the city of Sheboygan, Wisconsin for the fiscal year beginning January 1st of 2017. The Executive Director, Christopher Morell. So I present this to Administrator Hoffland on behalf of the work that he and all of the staff, both the managers and the department heads, did in putting that budget together. Congratulations. And they also included a certificate of recognition for budget preparation to Darrell Hoffland. I'll also give that to Darrell as well. And he's gonna give us a little bit of an idea of what this all means and what they had to go through. Thank you, Mayor. As part of the Government Finance Officers Distinguished Budget Award, they consider this significant achievement for any entity. In addition to local governments, counties, school districts, technical colleges, state governments are eligible for consideration. It reflects the commitment of a governing body and staff to meeting the highest principles in government budgeting. In order to receive the award, the entity has to satisfy national recognized guidelines for effective budget presentations. These include policy development, a financial plan, an operations guide, and finally a communication device. Budget documents must be rated proficient in all four categories and in 14 mandatory criteria within those categories to receive the award. The State of Wisconsin 19 municipalities have received this award in the last year. As I mentioned, other government agencies are also eligible in Sheboygan County. In addition now to the city of Sheboygan, LTC is the only other government agency that has been recognized by Government Finance Officers Association. As Mayor Mike identified, a lot of work went into this for the 2016 budget, 2017 budget, especially our Director of Finance, Nancy Bus. And again, an incredible amount of time, effort on her part in pulling this together. And again, I want to extend my appreciation for all her work. Recently as the past two weeks, you received a copy of the 2018 version. Again, we tried to make some improvements, to again make it as user-friendly as possible in spite of the length of the document, but we tried to anticipate questions that you, the policymakers have, as well as what the citizens would have as well. And again, we will continue to work on this budget document to make it better every year. And again, we appreciate all the contributions by city staff. Thank you very much. And then next we'll move on to Mayor's announcements. In addition to the Boy Scout Day that's coming up this weekend, our Gateway Neighborhood Association is planning a Michigan Avenue block party on Sunday, October 1st, from 1130 to 430. And that'll be held in the Michigan Avenue area. And then Estling Infest is coming up. It's a second annual event planned by the Mayor's International Committee. That'll be at Three Sheeps Tap Room on the same day, October 1st on Sunday from 11 till four o'clock. And then the next item I'd just like to make a notice announcement that the Board of Water Commissioner's election will be held at our next council meeting on October 2nd. Anyone interested in this position can get your letter of interest to Alderperson Wolff via the City Clerk's Office by September 26th. Next we'll move on to our hearing scheduled. It's item 2.1, hearing number six of 1718 pursuant to a notice published in the personal notices and sent by the City Clerk is hearing scheduled for this evening to amend the city's official zoning map to change the use district classification of property located at 2724 Collar Memorial Drive from Class Suburban Office, SO, to Class Urban Residential, UR. Hearing is now open. Is there anyone who wishes to be heard? Just raise your hand. Yes, sir, please come forward. We'll need your name and address. I'm Wilson McAlpine. My address is 1137 North 28th Street. Thank you. I'm the property right to the north of the subject rezoning thing. And I guess we just have questions of, I understand there's an apartment unit that is scheduled to go in there and that's why we need the zoning changes. It's currently zone commercial and this is to accommodate possible apartment complex. So I guess my initial reaction is I'm leery of that because what kind of residents are we talking here? Are we talking, is it gonna be subsidized housing? Is it gonna be, do we have any kind of plans? When we get to the item on the agenda, we can have further discussion on that. So for right now, if you have any other questions or comments you'd like to make, this is the time to make those. Okay, then that's, I just wanna say we have concerns until we find out more about what the actual apartment is gonna look like and just the, if it's a nice looking apartment, then probably wouldn't be an issue. But if it's gonna be future slums of Sheboygan, then we don't want that, so. Understood, thank you. Is there anyone else who wishes to be heard? Is there anyone else who wishes to be heard? Is there anyone else who wishes to be heard? All the person, Wolf? Thank you, Mayor. I make a motion to close the hearing. Second. Thank you for the motion and support. All those in favor, please signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion passes. Next move on to the consent agenda. That'll include items 3.2 through 3.11. All the person, Wolf? Thank you, Mayor. I make a motion to accept and file all our O's, accept and adopt all our C's and pass all resolutions and ordinances. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion on any of the items in the consent agenda? Seeing none. All those in favor, please signify by saying aye. Aye. Pardon me. We need to do a roll. I'm sorry, we need to do a roll call. 12 ayes. Motion passes. Next under communications, item 4.1 will be referred to the Public Works Committee. It was originally listed as public safety, but it's to Public Works Committee. And then moving on to reports of officers. Item 5.1 is RO number 162 of 1718 by the City Planning Commission. To whom is referred, general ordinance number 15 of 1718 by all their person, Donahue and Ross. And RO number 146 of 1718 by the city clerk to grant the privilege of encroachment upon described portions of Wisconsin Avenue located at 1331 Wisconsin Avenue in the city of Sheboygan for the purpose of installing and maintaining a private sewer that will tie into the public storm sewer within the right of way along the south side of Wisconsin Avenue and recommends passing the ordinance. All the person, Donahue. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, I have to call roll again. 12 ayes. Motion passes. Items 5.2 through 5.8 will be referred to various committees. Moving on to resolutions. Item 6.1 will lie over. And items 6.2 and 6.3 will be referred to the Public Works Committee under reports of committees. Item 7.1 is RC number 115 of 1718 by the Law and Licensing Committee. To whom is referred, RO number 128 of 1718 by the city clerk. Submitting various license application and recommends the nine beverage operators license application, 0977 Eugene A. Ashbar. Based on his record of violations related to the license activity, his record is habitual law offender and his failure to cooperate with the committee. All the person holds you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move that the report of committee be accepted and adopted. Thank you. Thank for that motion and support under discussion. Please proceed. Is Eugene Ashbar here? It doesn't appear Mr. Ashbar is here. He was at our meeting two well, it would have been four weeks ago and we had a discussion and he was going to have his PO present a letter or in person at our last meeting of law and licensing and no one showed up nor nor was any correspondence found with his unavailability to work with our committee. It was voted that his license be denied. Thank you. Is there any other discussion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll. 12 ayes. Motion passes. Item 7.2 is RC number 117 of 1718 by the law and licensing committee. To whom is referred, pursuant to RO number 140 of 1718 by the city clerk submitting various license applications and recommends denying beverage operator's license application number 5247, Randy J. Thomas. Based upon her record of violations related to the license activity, the record is a bitch a law offender and her failure to cooperate with the committee. All the person holds you. Thank you Mr. Mayor. I move that the report of committee be accepted and adopted. Second. Thank you for that motion and support under discussion. Please proceed. Is Brandy Thomas here? It doesn't appear that Brandy Thomas is here, nor did she show up to her any of the committee meetings and was not working with their failure to cooperate with the committee so it was decided to deny her license. Thank you. Is there any other discussion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll. 12 ayes. Motion passes. Item 7.3 is RC number 116 of 1718 by law and licensing to whom is referred RO number 140 of 1718 by the city clerk submitting various license application and recommends denying taxi cab license application number 1819, Thomas Holmes. Based upon his record of violations related to the license activity, his record is a bitch a law offender and failure to cooperate with the committee. All the person holds you. Thank you Mr. Mayor. I move that the report of committee be accepted and adopted. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Please proceed. Is Mr. Thomas Holmes here? It doesn't appear that he is here this evening. He was requested to come to our committee and didn't show up and henceforth we all decided and agreed to deny his license for non cooperation. Thank you for those comments. Is there any other discussion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll. 12 ayes. Motion passes. Item 7.4 is RC number 126 of 1718 by the Finance and Personnel Committee to whom is referred resolution number 66 of 1617 by all the person Donahue and Warren authorizing the purchasing agent to enter into a contract for the complete demolition of the Sheboygan Municipal Auditorium and Armory including restoration of the property as to so prepare it the site for future development and recommends passing the resolution. All the person Donahue. Thank you. I move to accept adopt and pass the resolution. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll. 10 ayes. Two nos. Motion passes. Item 7.5 is RC number 125 of 1718 by the Finance and Personnel Committee to whom is referred resolution number 65 of 1718 by all the person Donahue and Warren authorizing establishing an appropriation and the 2017 budget for land improvements and recommends passing the resolution. All the person Donahue. Thank you, Mayor. I move to accept adopt and pass the resolution. Second. Thanks for that motion and support. Is there any discussion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll. 12 ayes. Motion passes. Item 7.6 is RC number 123 of 1718 by the Finance and Personnel Committee to whom is referred resolution number 64 of 1718 by all the person Donahue and Warren amending resolution number 93 of 1415 authorizing the city administrator to negotiate a settlement of certain liability claims and recommends that the resolution be passed. All the person Donahue. I move to accept adopt and pass the resolution. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll. 11 ayes. One no. Motion passes. Item 7.7 is a resolution, rather RC number 124 of 1718 by Finance and Personnel Committee to whom is referred resolution number 63 of 1718 by all the person Donahue and Warren authorizing the appropriate city official to enter into an Intergovernmental Cooperative Agreement with Sheboygan County for sales tax, revenue sharing for transportation, infrastructure maintenance and recommends passing the resolution. All the person Donahue. Thank you. I move to accept adopt and pass the resolution. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll. 12 ayes. Motion passes. Item 7.8 is RC number 127 of 1718 by the Finance and Personnel Committee to whom is referred by direct referral resolution number 61 of 1718 by all the person Donahue, Warren and Wolf accepting certain changes to the city's medical benefit plan and dental benefit plan effective for calendar year 2018 coverage and establishing the monthly premium equivalent rates effective for January 2018 coverage and thereafter and recommends that the attached substitute resolution be passed. All the person Donahue. Thank you. I move to accept adopt and pass the substitute resolution. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll. 12 ayes. Motion passes. Item 7.9 is RC number 122 of 1718 by the Public Works Committee whom is referred resolution number 72 of 1718 by all the person Warren, Sorenson, Bellinger and Nelson directing the appropriate city officials to take steps to limit the use of Noelcrest Drive for the construction purposes during the time the State of Wisconsin Department of Transportation utility quarter multi-use path state project number 4996-22-71 is in progress and recommends passing the resolution. Alderperson Wolfe. Thank you, Mayor. I make a motion to accept and adopt and pass resolution. Second. Thank you for the motion and support under discussion. Alderperson Boren. Nothing. Okay. Is there any other discussion? Okay, will the clerk please call the roll. 12 ayes. Motion passes. Item 7.10 is RC number 128 of 1718 by the Public Works Committee whom is referred general ordinance number 17 of 1718 by Alderperson Wolfe repealing general ordinance number 21 of 71-72 as to remove the one-way street designation for South Water Street between Virginia Avenue and New Jersey Avenue and for New Jersey Avenue between South A Street and South Water Street and recommends passing the ordinance. Alderperson Wolfe. Thank you, Mayor. I make a motion to accept and adopt and pass ordinance. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. That's before you for discussion. Seeing no comments, please call the roll. 11 ayes. One no. Motion passes. Item 7.11 through 7.14, those will all be referred to the Committee of the Whole. Moving on to ordinances. Item 8.1 will be referred to finance and personnel and 8.2 will be referred to public safety committee. And moving on then to matters laid over. Item 9.1 is RO number 142 of 1718 by the City Planning Commission to whom is referred to general ordinance number 11 of 1718 by Alderperson Wolfe and Schneider in RO number 77 of 1718 by City Clerk for communication from acuity insurance, submitting a petition for direct annexation by unanimous approval for certain lands currently located in the town of Sheboygan. Alderperson Wolfe. Thank you, Mayor. I make a motion to accept and file and pass ordinance. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion? Seeing none of the clerk, please call the roll for passage. 12 ayes. Motion passes. Item 9.2 is RO number 143 of 1718 by the City Planning Commission to whom was referred general ordinance number 12 of 1718 by Alderperson Sivalio and Lewandowski in RO number 139 of 1718 by the City Clerk to rezone property located at 2724 Colon Memorial Drive from Class Suburban Office, SO to Class Urban Residential, UR Alderperson Wolfe. Thank you, Mayor. I make a motion to accept and file and pass ordinance. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Under discussion, Alderperson Bourne. Thank you, Mayor. To answer the gentleman's question who spoke on the public forum, can you give us some direction on what type of housing that's going to be, market rate or subsidized? I'd like to call Chad Pellichek up and he can give us a little background on that. Thank you for the question. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, Council. This is the property just so everybody knows that was the formerly known as Nino's property on Colon Memorial Drive. The developer is proposing a market rate housing development. So it will not be subsidized. And to the gentleman in the back, it will not be the new slum of Sheboygan. It's a very high quality design project. And that's one of the reason why City staff was in support of it. It's a very nice entrance staple to our community along that major corridor. From a parking standpoint, there's one parking stall per each one bedroom and two parking stalls per each two bedroom and guest parking in the center. So the intent is that the needs of the development will be handled, the parking needs of the development will be handled on site with underground parking as part of this. I think it's, like I said, we're excited about this opportunity. I think it poses a great opportunity for a different mix of people in our market. And as you know, we continue to push down the track of getting more rental units. And so these rental units will be of high quality finishes and design. Thank you, Chad. Under further questions, all are personally Wendalski. Yes, I had a couple phone calls since it is in my district. And one of the phone calls was about parking, which Chad just answered. But another phone call was that they are against departments being built there because they think that it's a prime commercial area being the entrance of the city. And they would like to see a restaurant or some other type of business there instead of an apartment building. Okay, Chad, did you want to comment on that? Because, you know, we have had it available. And I know the property owner is marketed for quite some time with no solid interest in those types of businesses. Yeah, that's correct. It's been on the market for a while as both a for sale for lease has shown very little interest. And I think the question is, is why apartments? I think there's the opportunity for people that are working out either acuity or further out west to kind of leverage this location and not necessarily have the downtown location. So I think, you know, from a planning perception, we believe it works well into the market. And, you know, it wasn't zoned. It was zoned suburban commercial. I mean, suburban office. It wasn't zoned for a commercial establishment under suburban commercial. So if it was commercial, it'd have to be rezoned anyway. And that's the highest and best used, we believe for the parcel given the fact that we are in need of additional apartments. Thank you. Next is Alderperson Sarnson. I know we're getting a little off topic about, excuse me, rezoning. But I was wondering if there was a date kind of set for groundbreaking. What if this was gonna be next year or whatever. They have to go through the conditional use permit through the planning commission after this rezoned. So we at that stage will understand what the timing is. I'm not able to answer that question as you know. Thanks, Chad. Alderperson, you're on? Actually, my point was answered very nicely. I just want to confirm the communication about that. That spot was available for quite a while and we did not really have anything developed there. So I'm for one happy to see something of quality going in that spot. So good work. Thank you for those comments. Alderperson Holschew. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Just wondering if for chance in the agreement that we have with them, if we have an agreement with them, which maybe we won't have. We will not have a developers agreement as we're not providing any incentive in this deal. So the next step after the rezoned is to work through the architectural review board and the planning commission for approval to build the building. Thank you. Next is Alderperson Wolfe. Thank you, Mayor. Chad, one more question. I understand that we all like to see restaurants and things like that, like it used to be and the property has been available for a very long time, but what's the estimated value of this project? Would you say in your years of experience? The developers in, I'd say at least 10 million. Okay, I know restaurant typically would be under three million. Yes, thank you. Thank you for those comments. Alderperson Holschew. I'm sorry, I looked at the, and I don't remember how many units is going. I think it's 60. 60, one and two bedroom units. One and two bedroom units, yes. 60 of them. Yes. Thank you. Alderperson Boren. My question was answered, thank you. All right, thank you. Okay, if there's no more questions, the clerk please call the roll for passage. All rise. Motion passes. Item 9.3 is arrow number 144 of 1718 by the city planning commission, approving the proposed corrected amendment to the project plan of tax incremental district number 13 of the city of Sheboygan, Wisconsin. Alderperson Wolfe. Thank you, mayor. I make a motion to accept and file and pass resolution. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. I'd like to call up Chad to give us a little explanation on this. Thank you. So this is, this was approved prior. This is TID 13, TID 13 encompasses an area around the founders club and the landmark square apartments in that a month or two ago, the council accepted this amendment to the district to provide a developer's incentives to the founders club for their phase two construction as well as sharing excess revenue from the district with TID 16. After that was all completed, we were advised by the state of Wisconsin department of revenue that we're unable to share with a different district. So TID 16 is set up as a mixed use district. This was set up as a blighted district and you can only share with a blighted district. So what we're doing is basically correcting the approval to continue to provide the wherewithal to have the incentive in there for the founders club but there will be no sharing with the TID 16 that part of it has been removed. So that's primarily the correction is just removing that sharing of funds with another district. Thank you, Chad. Is there any other discussion on this motion? Thank you. Would the clerk please call the roll. 12 ayes. Motion passes. Next is item 9.4, which is our own number 145 of 1718 by the city planning commission approving the proposed corrected amendment to the project plan amendment for tax incremental district number 14, city of Sheboygan, Wisconsin. And again, I'd like to ask Chad to give us a brief explanation. So this is as it relates to TID 14. TID 14 encompasses primarily the festival foods area and the Taylor Drive shopping center was put in place to provide incentives to tear down the old Walmart and build the new festival foods. What we're doing here is amending the territory boundaries of TID 14 to encompass the Memorial Mall property or the new Meijer store. And to provide the development incentive that this council has previously approved. The development incentive is a $1.6 million incentive pays you go where they'll pay their taxes. A portion of their taxes will be paid back to them until that 1.5 million, sorry, it's 1.5, until that's met. The other piece of it is 1.5 million is being used to reconstruct the entrance or the traffic lanes on Taylor Drive as part of this development. It's a TIF eligible expense. And then another 500,000 is set aside in there if needed in the future, if there's some improvements that are needed for the off ramps at Taylor Drive and 23 as part of the new configuration and additional signals and those types of things as part of this development. So it's really to provide an incentive and make public infrastructure improvements and add this territory into the district. This has been approved by the Joint Review Board, which is all the taxing jurisdictions as well as the planning commission. So now it's before you for approval. Thank you very much. Is there any other discussion on this motion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll? 12 ayes. Motion passes. Item 9.6 is resolution number 62 of 1718 by Alderperson Donahue, authorizing a transfer of appropriate. 9.5. Sorry, back to 9.5. 9.5 is RC number 106 of 1718 by the Committee of the Whole to whom is referred resolution number 30 by Alderperson Bellinger, authorizing the purchasing agent to enter into contract for professional services related to the performance of an operational and departmental structure study for the Sheboygan Fire Department. Alderperson Donahue. Thank you, Mayor. I moved to, excuse me, I moved to accept, adopt and pass the resolution. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. That's before us for discussion. Alderperson Lee Wendalski. Yes, five weeks ago, city administrator Darrell Huffman gave us the results of a 2017 citizen survey and how the city is doing. The survey showed that the top rated city department is the fire department. We also got a 26 page handout of comments. I read every one at 410 comments. A few comments were that we should spend money wisely and there's too much wasteful spending. Comment number 315 was you are spending and wasting taxpayer money on all the wrong things. Fix the streets. Comment number 203 starts out, the mayor and city council need to do a better job at working with the police chief and the fire chief. Comment number 177 says it appears common sense is nowhere to be found in city government. Tonight we will be voting on spending $58,000 to find out things the fire department is doing wrong. Even though the people rated the fire department number one of all city departments. They are happy with the fire department as it is currently being run and don't see the need for a $58,000 study. Instead of spending $58,000 on what a department is doing right, how about spending $58,000 on departments that didn't make the top five or better yet just skip all studies which we ignore anyway and put that $58,000 towards the roads like the people would want. By approving this $58,000 study, we will be spending it on the wrong things according to our taxpayers who supply the money. Instead, we will be wasting that money on a study that has been shot down two times in the past and is part of which hunt against the fire chief and which hunt it is. According to one definition I found, which hunt definition the act of unfairly looking for and punishing people such as political opponents. Certainly we aren't fairly looking for things wrong in the top rated city department or fire department. Instead of a witch hunt against the chief, we should all be thanking him, the chief and all the members of the fire department for doing such a good job that the citizens of Sheboygan consider them the best department in our city. Voting in favor of this study will make us the council look stupid and make our citizens ask what were they thinking? Or maybe they will be thinking, what were they thinking? I ask my fellow common council members to vote against this and end this witch hunt for good. Thank you. Thank you for those comments. Alderperson holds you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'm a bit concerned because I spent some time and I come to find that the new alderman that have been elected to term within our council now weren't even made aware of the fact that previous reports were given to all of the alderman nor were they provided any copies. So when bringing that forward, they made certain that the new alderman did get copies of this report. What I don't understand is why are we going after one single department? Are we preparing ourselves to go after every single department now? The fire department has been doing a fantastic job. They are, as most of our departments have been cut and so they don't have all the people that they do need. The ambulance service is the one service that does bring revenue to our city. According to the survey that was sent out, the fire department was one amongst the leading things that the people in the city of Sheboygan did. This is the third time this has been presented to the council. In my opinion, it's presented to the council at this time because of the new alderman that have been elected in hopes of getting this passed. I believe we're setting a precedent. We don't follow the studies that do come through. I don't know what they're expecting to be different than what all the three different reports that we have gotten. So I am encouraging all of our aldermen to vote against this unless they are also prepared to approve every single department to get a department study. Thank you. Thank you for those comments. Alderperson Trester. Like Alderman Hulshu said, we voted this down twice. My biggest concern is we are not gonna grant the fire department the additional people that they have requested through the study that we've already done. We're gonna spend $60,000 on a study and we're not gonna pay any attention to what the study is going to bring in. We have the city attorney's office that we're not meeting their needs because we don't have the money but we're gonna spend $60,000 on something we really don't need and something we've already voted against. We're not gonna give the fire department the three people that he needs because we don't have the money but we're gonna spend $60,000 that's not budgeted to be used for another study which we voted down twice. So I would ask the city council here to think before we vote and to vote against spending this additional $60,000 that we don't have. Thank you. Thank you for that comment. Alderperson Donahue. I speak in favor of this resolution as I have ever since it was first introduced. What Alderman Lewandowski says is true. Our citizens are happy with the fire department and the reason for that is that when you're in trouble and someone responds to you in a thorough and competent way we tend to be happy with that service. I know that when my mom lived with us we called the fire department quite often and I love those guys. I think they're terrific. I think they do an excellent job. That's not the issue. Those folks have not been in this council to hear major complaints that have been filed by the working force of the fire department against the management. There are a lot of conflicts in that department that we simply don't find in other departments. I don't know how we're ever gonna resolve that if we don't move forward on this. I mean I have some ideas but they're sort of incremental and will grow old as we wait for those responses. So here's my deal. The library has done major reorganization over the past years and has reduced its working staff by almost half. The police department has greatly modified its management structure, made it much leaner and much more responsive allowing more time for police officers to be out on the street. Public Works has gone from 120 down to 80 people more or less and has dramatically restructured how its department works. If you look at the 10 year survey of the fire department really not much has changed. So what you have is you have a chief, you have an assistant chief, you have a deputy chief, you have four battalion chiefs, you have five captains and you have 10 lieutenants and you have 66 firefighters. So that's about one supervisor for every four people. And in today's world, I guess I'm just not sure why that happens. So I would like, and there haven't been any answers from Chief Romus as to why, in fact I asked him at the city council meeting or at the committee of the whole meeting and I said if you do get, I mean if you had to choose between getting another firefighter and more management, what do you want? And he said I need more management. Okay, that may be, but what I believe so strongly is this is really our last chance to kind of try to get this right. None of us here is able to adequately analyze the workings of the fire department. City Administrator Hofflin hasn't run a fire department before. We don't seem, one of the reasons this keeps coming up is we can't seem to solve this problem. We just need to take a look at, we need to take a look at how the fire department does business and see if it's the most efficient and effective way. Costs $54,000. That does sound like a lot of money, but in an overall budget that exceeds $100 million, it's not that much. Here's the deal. If Chief Romus was saying, I can live with what I have, just like the police department does and public works and the library and other departments, I can live with it. Fire plan 2020 is for a huge budget busting increase in the size of the fire department. More management, true, more firefighters. My question is, do we need them? Should we have them? Is there a different way of doing business? And according to Chief Romus, everything's just great. And that isn't what I'm hearing, but that's what the Chief tells us. I don't see a way forward unless we actually, and just get this done. Now, there is a certain cynicism that I know in this crowd and sometimes I share that myself. I've been here six years and I'm not sure which studies we have undertaken whose recommendations have been ignored. I'm sure that might be it if somebody could refresh my recollection on that. I'm willing to live within budget constraints with what this study comes up with, but this is our last best chance because otherwise the only thing we can do to Chief Romus is say your budget busting proposals, we just can't afford, we can't do that and you're not willing to look at any other way of doing business. And so the plain fact is, Chief, you're not gonna get Fire Plan 2020 just like the police department doesn't get it in the library and public works and so on and so forth. So $54,000, let's get it done, let's take care of it, let's live with what we're told. I'm impressed by the Fitch proposal. As I say, the reason this does keep coming up is we just don't seem to be able to solve the problem. So now's the time to do it. I suggest we vote yes on this, get it on its way and get it taken care of. Thank you for those comments. Under further discussion, Alderperson Sorenson. So being one of the newer guys, I guess that I am aware that this has been voted down twice before and I'm wondering if some of the more senior alderman could give some background to why they voted it down in the past. Was it the cost constraints, whether it was the thought that the Fire Department was doing adequate in the direction that they were heading? Because I do feel like that this was brought up as a way that, oh, there's a good handful of new folks on here to give it a third shot to say. So I would appreciate those thoughts during our discussion as well. But like I said during the committee, the whole meeting, I'm skeptical about if we get the study complete, are we gonna follow through with all the recommendations? Are we gonna agree with everything? I'm hopeful that with the size of the Fire Department's budget that we will find some good changes that we can hopefully streamline, whatever you might need to do, we can save some money. Or the study might come back and might back up what Chief Romas has to say. And then Chief Romas can come back and be like, hey, told you so. But I do feel like that we do need to do this and do it correctly. I feel like that this could helpfully, in the long run, I think this could help the city as well as the Fire Department. But I do wanna make sure that we do do it right. So, thank you. Thank you for those comments. Alderperson, Halshew. Thank you again, Mr. Mayor. We did have a study that went out to all the people and there was a morale issue between the union and the management. And we also requested there to be a study of the management done by our HR and our fire chief and it came back that everything was hunky-dory. So I don't know how that happened, but it did. If you look at the fire department, it's 66, it used to be 70, so it has been decreased over the years. And I'm clearly see there's an ax to grind. I'm not sure why, but there is. What are we gonna do when the survey comes back and says exactly what the chief did? He wants to have done. We have an industrial park going out on the south side. We also have just annexed land in the town of Wilson. We are going to need ambulance. We are going to need more fire department. And some of the reasons why that survey was shot down is that when we asked the union and the fire chief to get together and discuss each of the plans that were brought in, they came back with the fact that if the chief had put in three of the battalion chiefs on full time and left one on management, we would get the coverage that we needed to have. That just didn't happen. So I'm not sure what this study is supposed to bring forth when we're not gonna do anything with it anyway, because we don't have the money to do anything moving forward with the fire department. So quite frankly, I'm more than annoyed. And I think that we're setting a precedent that we don't trust our department heads. We specifically had the job description for the fire chief change to require a master's degree in a different discussion that we had had on this floor. If I do not know why we needed to have to have the fire department study done, because why did we change the job description if we aren't trusting someone who's supposed to be an expert in the fire department? So I truly am saying that if we are going to be doing this survey that we should very well expect that every single department, whether they've made cuts or not, get the same study done to see how we can save dollars in the city. Because it seems to me we're just spending dollars trying to get this pushed through. People have an axe to grind with the fire department and the ambulance service. The only department that's bringing money into our budget is the ambulance service. And I think the whole problem is they don't like the answer. So let's keep trying to push it through. Thank you for your comments. All the person trust her. I don't know about you, but I grew up with a saying, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And the people in the city of Sheboygan don't think our fire department is broke. The city of Sheboygan could be broke if we keep on having $60,000 studies going on when we don't need them. I think that there are people on this council that just have a vendetta for the fire department. And no matter what is said, whether this study comes back that we need three new firemen or if the study comes back saying we need seven firemen with the district in the area that we've just taken in, we're not gonna add them anyway because as Alderman Donahue said, we don't have the money. So if we don't have the money, we're cutting all these other departments because we don't have the money, but we're gonna spend $60,000 to have a study done that our fire chief and the fire chief together with the union and that the union have already done. I don't know about you, but if I was the head of the department and I was the head of the department for about 25 years of my life, if somebody wanted to do a study of my department after I had already had the studies done and we voted on it twice and it was brought up again, I would be totally offended that the people in this council would not trust my judgment and my job. I think we gotta think about this. This is ridiculous that we will spend $60,000 on a whim of a few people on this council because not everybody on this council is for it. We voted it down twice. Now we have a brand new council with new council members, so we're gonna try it again because we have new people and maybe we can convince them that they need to vote in favor of this. Well, I'm against it and I will vote against it over and over and over again. And as far as I'm concerned, the fire department do a fabulous job. The people in my district say they do a fabulous job. The people in the city say they do a fabulous job, but by all means, let's spend another $60,000 on a fire study. Let's use that $60,000 and give the city attorney what he needs. Let's use that $60,000 and fix some of the potholes in the city. Thank you for those comments. Next is older person boring. Thank you, Mayor. I'm in favor of the study and I have been all along and Alderman Sorenson asked a very good question at the last committee of the whole meeting. Some of you were here and some of you weren't here. And Alderman Sorenson, if I remember correctly, asked Chief Romus when we were standing up there at the podium, do you have the ability or the time to do a study of the same metrics that we were going to get from Fitch? And Chief Romus says, no, we do not have the expertise nor do we have the time. I've been on the council. This is my 12th year. I've had three fire chiefs, Chief Lewandowski, Chief Herman and Chief, now Chief Romus. What I've observed in these 12 years is that these chiefs were very qualified and for the most part did a very, very good job. But it's been steady as she go, don't rock the boat. There have been very, very few changes in the fire department. The study that is going to be done, I'm going into it with no preconceptions at all. And the people that don't want this survey, I'm wondering what they're afraid they might find out. We may find out that we don't need as much management and those dollars can be shifted over to higher firefighters that are on the street. We may find that we need more fire departments. We may find out that we need less. We may find out some better ways of billing for the ambulance service. I don't know if you thought when City Administrator Hoplin gave his report on the budget two weeks ago, but he's budgeting for the ambulance service collections to go down another $200,000 in 2018. And I'm not saying it's the fault of the fire department, it's because Medicaid and Medicare are reducing their reimbursements for those calls. What I'm hoping, if we go through with the Fitch study, that they are gonna come up with some new unique ways of getting more ambulance collections. I agree, if we're gonna be in that business, we have to maximize the collections. Maybe there's some ways that we haven't thought of. Maybe there's a way for our department to get some of the more lucrative calls that are going down to Milwaukee or up to Green Bay. Maybe we have an exhausted every way of getting those calls. And I agree with Alderman Donahue when she said, the other departments have already been through this. I was here when the last police chief retired. And we changed the deputy chiefs in the police department to, I believe, captains. We also reduced some of the administrative people in the police department and offered them early retirement. And we gave some of those duties to clerical people rather than sworn people. The result of that was after some payback for early retirements was a savings in the police department of $450,000 a year. And also with the public works department. There have been drastic changes. That department also does a fantastic job just like the fire department and the police department. They have better equipment, they're working smarter, and they have an excellent leader in director Bebel. So I'm in favor of this. I'm not afraid of what we're gonna find out. Apparently some people are. But the clincher for me was when Alderman Sorensen asked that question, is our leadership in the fire department qualified? Or do they have the time to do the metrics? And Chief Romo said no to each one of those. And talking about the report that we've gotten so far, it sounds like Alderman Holshu has been disappointed. I was talking to another Alderman today, and he said if I was writing a report like we got from the fire department, it was a college paper, it would have been graded as an F. So I'm gonna support this study. I think it's money well spent, $53,000. We may find that there are savings of a couple hundred thousand dollars that's more than gonna pay for this. So again, I encourage you all to vote for it. And again, I'm not looking at this with any preconceptions. I want an independent study. Thank you. Thank you for those comments. Alderman Lymondowski. Alderman Donahue said that she can live with the results of the study. But since we're talking about public safety here, will everybody be able to live with the results of the public with the study? If the study says that we should cut people, is that gonna cost somebody their life? That's something that we can't risk. Thank you for your comment. Alderman Donahue. Yes. Alderman Holshu, you buzzed in, but you've already spoken twice to this issue, so I'm sorry I'm gonna have to pass you up. Alderperson Reinflech. Thank you. Roberts Ruhlf is a warder, sorry. Before I retire, I spent a considerable amount of time in continuous improvement projects in a manufacturing environment. The old way of thinking was, if it ain't broken, don't fix it. The modern way of thinking now is if it ain't broken, improve it. And that's what we really need to be doing. We have a study here to improve our services. I'm not afraid of having a study done. Hopefully this company who's got a lot of experience and I've been reviewing their proposal in detail will be able to find us better ways to operate the department. That's not to say it's gonna be more resources or fewer resources, but they know the fire business. And I think it's worthwhile for us to get a professional opinion on this. Again, we wanna improve the services that we do and that may involve more people, may involve less, we'll find out when we get it. Get the study back. But I certainly think it's short-sighted to say because it's not broken, we can't do anything any better. We certainly can do things better. Jose Johnson reported again on the ambulance viability, page 38 of their fifth proposal, they have experience doing collection from an ambulance service that's directly relevant. They have considerable experience collecting an ambulance experience. I think just that little part of the study will be valuable to us. So I think we're gonna learn a whole lot from doing the study and I intend to vote aye. Thank you for your comments. Alderperson Wolfe. Thank you, Mayor. I'm also looking at this as a no right now. And the reason that I'm looking at this and I've been an alder that's been on board for the two votes voting it down is because I've been on the fence and why have I been on the fence? I've been on the fence from the beginning on the way we've been presenting it. As it's been said by several elders, elders, elders. Anyway, the way it's been reviewed and presented is fire department, fire department, fire department. My issue is again like Alderman Ron had said is the fact that continuous improvement. I agree with continuous improvement. I do see a value to having a consultant come in. The issue is why are we doing it? Why are we focusing on the fire department? I would have rather it came forward and as multiple elders believed it was going to be happening is that we were planning on looking at all of our departments. It has never been presented that way as far as that I'm concerned. It's always been the fire department only. A consultant coming in can be looked at in two different ways. They can be looking at when you're underwater trying to figure out how to find your way to the top or to find out how well you are doing when you are swimming. And I guess when I look at this, we've heard from some some elders how well we're doing in all of these other departments but we feel that the fire department is not doing a very good job. I believe that our population within the fire department has been going down but yet our city has been growing in different directions. What do I mean by that? The population hasn't necessarily been changing but the concentration has been changing within the city. We have five fire stations compared to years ago. Do I agree necessarily that we need more management? Not necessarily. Do I agree with the ambulance? I agree that we need an ambulance because those firemen are gonna be at the station. We send our fire trucks to every call also. So again, some of this is semantic. Some of this is not understanding the spirit of the discussion when we talk about the fire department. I think every department has an opportunity for cost improvement. But I also wanna point out the fact that as we've made changes over the years, some of them because of Act 10, some of them would just be through retirements and continuous improvement within departments. I think we have a great leadership within the city of Sheboygan. Over the years, we have brought in additional, highly educated, highly knowledgeable people within departments and we've had people that have worked here and continuously improve our departments. But we say that those departments are continuously improving but the fire department is not and that's why we're focusing on the fire department. It's also because they have a high budget. I would be in support if it was written correctly and it was presented correctly, I would be willing to support every year or every two years a budget where we look at it from the largest budget department. Let's say it's the fire department, then I'd say it's the police and in public works as an example that every year or two that we would bring a consultant in and do one department every two years and we would just do that on a regular basis. Nobody's being looked at discriminatively. Nobody's being looked at other than how can we improve what's going on? What's happening right now? Mr. Romas has offered us his requests in the last couple of years. We didn't like it, we didn't do it. It was put on hold. Then we asked for a report. Then the union says we'll get a report from then. So we wait, the union gives us a report. Then we get to 2020 and amazing, they're very similar. Then we asked for more clarity. We asked for job descriptions and things like that to be reviewed. Everything's good. Yes, Alderman Donahue is correct. The constituents don't seem to complain with the fire department because it's a life and death situation. Insurance is like fire department. They're costly but we don't like to use it but we want it when it's there. I understand, it's just like the police. We don't like it, we get nervous when we see them but we want them there when we need them. It's like that for everything. It's just like public works. We get upset when things are not done right but we want them there. We don't like the cost. The reason why I'm against it at this time again is because of the way it's being presented and the fact that we're not looking at everything as a broad stroke of the brush. We're looking at one department and if we're gonna look at one department then we should be looking at all of them because I think that we're being hindsight here is the fact that we have been reducing our costs for years. We have been allowing our management team to guide us and show us but we also haven't been necessarily listening to them. We're starting to listen to people. We're starting to understand that maybe we're a little too tight and that we need to make some changes. Again, I'm voting it down because of the fact that I personally wanna see multiple departments reviewed not just one, not focusing just on one department. We should be looking at multiple departments and meeting with the management team and getting them to understand that this is to help them do their job more openly and have the tools that they need to do their job. Thank you. Thank you for those comments. Alderperson Nelson. Thank you, Mayor. I've been listening to, most all of the aldermen have made their comments and so I guess I have to make a little comment too. Obviously I know nothing about fire departments but it's been an educational experience. I have had access to the reports that have been done before because I guess I just asked for them and got them. So I mean, it's not a big deal. I don't wait to be provided with information. I search out information. The one thing that hasn't been discussed here is the future. And I'm not talking about 2020. I'm talking about 2030 again or 2035 and what is the future of fire service going to look like? As you may or may not know, volunteer fire departments out in the unincorporated areas are withering on the vine. There's less volunteers. There's more training required of the volunteers. So there's quite a movement towards what they call fire service areas and that wouldn't be just limited to the city limits. And so I'm hoping from a study like this that we're going to learn some potential economies of scale with a larger service area, more taxpayers involved because actually the way we do things now, my understanding is we help out those volunteer fire departments at a greater proportion than perhaps they help us. So I don't know, but I'd like to hear some of that information in a NS study and I'm hoping that information will be available. Thank you. Thank you for your comments. Seeing no other lights lit up, I'll ask the clerk to please call the roll on 9.5. Seven, excuse me, seven eyes, five nose. Motion passes. Next item is 9.6, resolution number 62 of 1718 by Alderperson Donahue authorizing a transfer of appropriations in the 2017 budget for contracted services for an operational consulting departmental structure of the fire department. Alderperson Donahue. Thank you, Mayor. I move to pass the resolution. Thank you for that motion and support under discussion. I have a second. Is there a second? I'm sorry, run. Thank you. Mayor, at this time I would also move to put this resolution on hold. Second. Okay, so there's a motion on the floor to put the item on hold. Is there any discussion? If I could speak to my motion. It is my understanding that this vote requires a super majority, in other words, 11 out of 16 people need to vote in favor of it, as there are only 12 of us here tonight. These are, we usually think of majority rule, these kinds of things are minority rule, but the fact that there are only 12 of us here, which means that two people alone can undermine a resolution that's been passed by a majority of the council indicates to me that we should just hold off on this until more Alders are here and we can take it, and we can take it from there. Thank you for those comments. Alderperson Holschew. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'm not in favor of holding this issue. We could talk about this survey. Why can't we talk about the money and make the vote for getting the money for this study? So it's on, this is the second time it's been brought before us. It was held at our last meeting. So I am in favor of taking the vote tonight. Thank you for your comments, Alderperson Truster. I too am in favor of going ahead. I don't like manipulating the vote because we don't have enough people here to vote on it. I think it's brought to us tonight. We ought to vote on it, so I don't want to hold it either. Thank you very much, Alderperson Donahue. Just in the spirit of civility and so forth, we've been talking about people having personal vendettas and various things and manipulation. I just object to the term if I could. This is an odd statutory provision the legislature and its wisdom determined that any budget transfer, no matter how small, this is $54,000 out of an enormous budget needs to be passed by a super majority of the council. In other words, it's minority rule. And that's the law, it can't be changed at least not at this point. My point here is that from a democratic process because it does require this extra vote. It's not manipulation, it's not event data. It's just a fair way of doing business is that we come when we have more people here and see if there are 11 people in fact who are in favor of this really quite small expenditure. So I think we kind of keep the conversation on the up and up and take it from there. Thank you for those comments. Seeing no other lights, ask the clerk to please call a roll for this motion to hold. I'm sorry, the other person holds you. Yes, I'm sorry. If that been the case and we wanted to get the opinion of all the alderman why didn't we hold the other document as well? Would be one question and we're certainly not trying to manipulate the vote. I wonder if by holding that insinuation that was just made would fall upon those on that. And also it's cost more than $58,000 because they have to take the fire department's time and they have to have their participation and the reason why the fire chief said he didn't have time to do it, he isn't gonna have to find the time to do it with the survey either. So it's more than the 58,000. So again, I encourage everyone to vote on this. It's on the agenda. We could discuss it without the alderman that aren't here. We should be able to vote with them not here as well. Thank you for that comment. Please call the roll on the motion to hold. I vote is to hold. And I vote would be to hold. Eight eyes, four nos. Motion passes. Next item is 9.7 RC number 110 of 1718 by the Finance and Personnel Committee to whom is referred a copy of General Ordinance number 11 of 1718 by Alderperson Holschuh and Schneider annexing territory to the city of Sheboygan. Parentheses acuity. Alderperson Donahue. Thank you, Mayor. I move to accept and file. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, would the clerk please call the roll? The reason we're doing the file is we've already passed this. This was just a copy gone to another committee. 12 eyes. Motion passes. Item 9.8 is General Ordinance number 13 of 1718 by Alderperson Donahue, Warren, Wolf, Ryan, Flesh and Ross amending section 82-33 of the Sheboygan Missile Code as to amend a position in the Department of Public Works Engineering Division and the Department of Public Works Table of Organization. Alderperson Donahue. Thank you, Mayor. I move to pass the ordinance. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. Is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll? 12 eyes. Passes. Next, we'll go on to other matters. City attorney. 10.1 is an arrow by the city clerks submitting various license applications for the period ending December 31, 2017, June 30, 2018 and June 30, 2019. That'll be referred to the law and licensing committee. Next is an anticipated closed session. Alderperson Wolfe. Thank you, Mayor. I make a motion to convene in closed session under the exemption provided in section 19.85. Sub 1, Sub B, Wisconsin stats, where competitive and bargaining reasons require the closed session for a development opportunity in the South Pier district. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. The clerk will call the roll for closed session. 12 eyes. Motion passes. For the viewing public, we'll be adjourning in closed session. So this will end our broadcast for this evening. Thank you.