 I'm just staying with us here on the breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. Energy expert Balazaka is now joining us to have a conversation on the petroleum industry bill. In the news this morning there is a few stories that share that still people who aren't entirely happy with the signing of the bill even though it's been celebrated in some quarters that President Mohammed Al-Bawari has done the wish of majority of Nigerians. So we'll say good morning to Balazaka. Thanks for joining us. Good morning. Thank you. All right, Mr. Zaka, there's a little bit of controversy with regards to petroleum industry bill. There's I think misunderstanding in some regard. So can you help us from to the best of your knowledge? Do you think that this is simply misunderstood and instead is a great move by the current administration that will help the Nigerian oil industry move forward? As far as I'm concerned, the concerns expressed by different stakeholders have some reasonable degree of sense. But one thing it is very clear, you know, after waiting for this bill to be passed for many years, at least it is good that we have started, we have decided to embark on the journey. But as far as concerns from stakeholders are I mean are there or referred to, I also have my personal concerns honestly concerning the assented bill because I thought all the ice will be dotted and all the teas will be crossed. But unfortunately I found out that even some of my concerns were not addressed. But now that it is a law, we just have to come together and see how we can make best use of things that are there and hope that even this law now will remain a future work in progress with the hope of addressing virtually everything when possible. Mr. Zaka, I want us to actually understand this Petroleum Industry Act. First of all, it's been hailed. You know, this is a good move. This is something that has stalled for about 20 years. Finally, the President's gave his assent just a few days ago. But the question here from the Quarters regarding South and Governors and stakeholders in South-South is about the fact that they have true wishes regarding a 10% from these oil companies was not adhered to. What they have now is 3% in the Act, 30% for derivation, for exploration of oil in other parts of the country, especially in the North. So one of the biggest bones of contention here is that some stakeholders are saying that the bill basically gives moves to the government to take money from the South to look for oil in the North. Do you think that's a valid stance or do you think that's something that just further divides us because you're looking at it now from an ethnic point of view North versus South? Correct. You're 100% correct in your question. You know, as far as I'm concerned, you know, I told you I also had my own concerns. As far as I am concerned, even the definition of post-community needed to have been looked into, because personally, I feel a post-community is supposed to be that community that is associated with the fiscal extraction of oil and gas. In other words, we can be within the same local government, you and I. But if you have oil in your own community and there is no oil in my own community, though we are even within the same local government, my community does not qualify to be called a host community. But we also know that we have areas that depots have passed through, pipelines have passed through, and some of these areas are impacted by activities of oil and gas, whether the upstream activities or the midstream or downstream. Those areas need to be given their own unique explanation or definition, but not to lump everything and call them host communities. So even from the point of host community, I have my own concerns. Then when we now come to the respective derivatives, to be honest, as far as I was concerned before the ascent, I thought that area of the percentage was going to be looked into. And as far as the frontier basins were also concerned, I thought it was also going to be looked into. But unfortunately, after reading the Ascented Bill, I discovered it wasn't looked into. And the question I asked myself is this, how do we move forward as Nigeria? Is this going to be the final law and forever? But I also console myself with this feeling that even the holy books like the Bible, the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita and other holy books are still even being questioned by humans. And that simply means even if what is contained in the holy books is being questioned to a reasonable extent, the imperfection of this bill or this act now is likely to be addressed in the nearest future. That's my own consolation. So Mr Zakat, do you think the major issue here is about the percentage of the of the money? Because for oil exploration is 30 percent, host companies are getting 3 percent. Do you think that where the conflict really is? And if the figures were flipped, maybe the southerners would not be complaining so much? What do you think? Not necessary. The amount of money is very important. But is the utilization that even matters? Is the utilization and the accountability as far as I'm concerned? I heard about the percentage that was going to go into to the host communities. And this time around, it will not pass through the local government, Shiamat. It will not pass through the state government. It will go straight to the host community. And as somebody who has walked on land locations, swamp locations, shallow water locations and deep offshore locations in the Niger Delta, the question is this, when it gets to the host communities, who are those who will manage the funds? We know that we have our traditional leaders there. We have our youth leaders there. We have our women leaders there. And we have other community leaders. At that even point, how can they come together, have a common focus and understanding or congruency to even manage it? Because this time around, probably the governor will not be allowed to interfere. The local government Shiamat will not be allowed to interfere. So at that point also, there will be a need for a kind of orientation who are coming together on even how to manage that. So there are so many areas that really need to be looked into. And that was why people like me and others said there are concerns. In terms of percentages, already those ones, we know there are imbalances, but we hope that with time, they will be addressed. Mr. Zaka, I think it's also important that people understand exactly what these frontier basins are and where they are, if they truly are northern states, like they have been described as, or they're actually, in other parts of the country, where Nigeria needs to also look into oil exploration to improve our increase in production. There's the Benin, Ohinau river basin. There is the Sokoto Rimar. There's the Niger basin. There's the Oshun basin. There's Imoanambra. And this doesn't necessarily mean northern states. But I think it's just a lack of understanding as to what exactly means. But I want you to also talk about the NNPC now. The bill supposedly is meant to bring a better managed NNPC and more transparency in the oil industry. How do you think that this will be achieved? Let me start with the basins first. When you talk about Nigeria, geologically, this time around, Nigeria has about 607 basins. The first one, in terms when we're not talking about fossil fuel oil and gas, the first one is deplorific Niger Delta basin, you know, where you have the Niger Delta as the south-south. The second one is a basin where you have Lagos axis. Recently oil has been discovered, but that basin is called Davumi basin. You know, Lagos axis belong to Davumi basin. Then once you leave the Niger Delta and south-south, you're going up north. You have what we call the Anambra basin. Some hydrocarbon trees whose signs have been seen in the Anambra basin. Then once you leave the Anambra basin, then you have what we call Benway trough into Gungula basin. You know, recently around Bauchi area and the rest, we learned that recently they made some discoveries, but I don't know the viability. Then outside that, you have what we call the Bida basin. You have the Sokoto basin and you have the Lake Chad basin. Let's be frank as Nigerians, technically and geologically, those areas belong to the OI in the northern parts of the country, because when you describe the north, anything after Benway state has been described as the north. So all those basins fall within the Anambra basin? No. Like I said, after Benway state or after Benway, Anambra state is definitely not part of Anambra basin is definitely not part of the northern basins. But what needs to really happen is my understanding before now, when we're talking about those basins was that we were going to go and carry out exploration activities to understand the overall fossil fuel potentials or oil and gas potentials that we have in Nigeria. Then we will have that as a record. Then having that, we will now still remain with the Niger Delta basin that is prolific and hope that in future, with future technology, the future generation will want to see the archives or the document containing the entire endowment of oil and gas in Nigeria. Then depending on the technology then, if it is going to be commercially viable, then they will explore for it whether as local investors or in collaboration with foreign partners. That was my own understanding because anywhere you are, you need to have an endowment of whatever you have, whether it is human potential, whether it is natural resources. That was my understanding in that area. Then when you were talking about the NNPC, as far as I'm concerned, two criteria must be fulfilled for this act to be viable. The first one is international acceptance and local tolerance. We are talking about international acceptance here because crude oil and gas are international commodities. Those who need to come and really contract will include international oil companies or foreign companies. If they don't buy into it, we are going to run into problems. Then in terms of the local tolerance, of course, after agreeing with international oil companies, they will need to come here and explore or drill locally. One will be their relationship with the local communities and other Nigerians. We just have to satisfy these two. Then you have other areas like I had. There may be deregulation. There may be removal of subsidy. Personally, I am against import-focused deregulation. What I mean by that import-focused deregulation is as long as the deregulation will continue to rely on importation. I know that our balance of trade is heading towards negative and I know that our Naira is sinking due to devaluation or depreciation that will never help the Nigerian economy. Because as I speak to you now, when you talk about LPG, liquefied petroleum gas or cooking gas, it's also a derivative of crude oil refining. 12.5 kg is already heading to 6000. After if you bring in deregulation that is import-focused dependent. It may get to 10,000. Diesel is already heading towards 300. If you deregulate and it is going to be based on importation, it may get to 400 or 500. We know what's happening to diesel. We know what's happening to kerosene. So we have to be very careful about that area. Okay. Mr Zaka, I also want us to address another bone of contention in this that seem to have been overshadowed by the concerns of the 3% and 30% sharing for the funds, the operating expenditure of these oil companies. That's that the Petroleum Industry Act right now goes ahead to provide for the establishment of the NNPC Limited, the National Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation Limited. This is an offshoot of the NNPC and it says that this will be owned by the federal government, the Ministry of Finance. But this is also something that has been antagonized. The southern governor said that it shouldn't be, the ownership of this should be the hands of the National Sovereign Insurance, the NSIA. So I don't know what you think really about this. Are these just, the question still remains, are these valid concerns? Do we really have a basis for that when we analyze it? Or are these just governors and stakeholders just trying to pick holes in the bill? Please help us understand it. Well, like what you are saying about National Sovereign Investment Authority. Yes. The concerns of everybody needs to be heard, even if they cannot be addressed today. Because one thing about concerns is good that they are documented, because even the leaders of today have their limitations. The leaders of today will eventually expire. We have young people coming, we have children that may come up. During their time, the level of intelligence and technology may be better than what we have. So to that extent, we need to listen to the concerns. They may not be viable today, but they will be viable against tomorrow. Like personally, I'm telling you already that as far as I'm concerned, if they go into the regulation, the economy will, for that, become prostrate. So instead of just throwing away my concern, why not document it unless matching with time and see what will happen? Maybe with the fullness of time, I may be right. Even if I'm wrong, but it was good that it was discussed, rather than just allowing it to lie low, then future generation will start battling with the same concept and the same issues. So for me, listening to the concerns, even if you can't solve all of them, document them, we may not have the answers today, but we may have the answers tomorrow. All right. So lastly, regarding what you were saying that, even if you might not go ahead to implement them, but these are things that we need to note down. We need to note down what these people are saying, and that has been the major issue. I've been saying since this PIB was passed, asking questions regarding why does it seem like laws are passed in Nigeria without the full consent and agreement, without the full consonance of the public and people who are involved. Southern governors have the grievances against the ownership of the NNPC Limited. Host communities are also aggrieved. So why is it that we never had this, or it seemed like we never had this full consultation with every stakeholder involved, and that their own grievances, their own concerns, taking into account, maybe even adjusted before the House, the Senate went on to pass it and the President gave his assent. Why then is this so? Because what this means is that there's a, you know, you mentioned two criterias for this to be viable. You mentioned international acceptance and local tolerance. So right now it seems that the local tolerance on the local tolerance front, it's not settled. So what this means is that in the next few years, there will definitely be continue to be debates about this, and the next talk will be amendments to the PIB. So why is it, why, why is this so, Mr. Zaka? Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, it is just because we are not nationalistic in our approach, because even we are nationalistic in our approach and we see ourselves as one united country, all these things are not supposed to happen. That is the principal thing that I see, and it is very, very unfortunate. And that's why we keep saying that the leaders we have should not only be political leaders, they are supposed to also be very good economic managers or look for economic consultants and guides within Nigerians to guide them, because they will always have a day with history. History will either forgive them or posterity will not vindicate them. These are the things we need to know. We are here today, nearly all of us may not be among the living in the next half a century, but the question is what kind of legacy do we want to leave for the future generation to come? We will either be remembered for how we organize and fix the petroleum industry bill or act, or we will either be remembered people who disorganize and derail everything that has to do with the oil and gas industry. All right, Balazsaka would have to wrap up here. We're completely out of time. But thank you very much for all the knowledge you've shared with us today, and thanks for being a part of the discussion. Thank you, Mr Zaka, have a great day. Thank you very much. Thank you, thank you, thank you. All right, and this is where we would be saying goodbye on a Wednesday morning. You remember to always catch up on these discussions on our social media platforms, it's simply at PLOS TV Africa on Facebook, Instagram, and our YouTube channel, pretty much the same thing, at PLOS TV Africa and PLOS TV Africa Lifestyle. And I am Annette Felix, saying goodbye.