 service delivery, innovation, we always forget half of the population. Women are not at the center of decision making. They don't have the agency and their voices are often very subdued, if at all heard. What we are asking for is a very level playing field. It makes sense from markets, it makes sense when you think of your consumers and it makes a lot of sense when you're thinking about human rights. So if we are talking about a global world where we want equity for all, then women cannot be left out of any part. They have to be in the boardroom, they have to be at the center of decision making, how resources are allocated and the value add will be 10x. It's already been proved where women have a strong voice in boardrooms, companies perform better. Even from economic sense, it makes sense. From human rights, it's a non-negotiable. It's not easy. We all live with those biases that we have grown up with. They are 5,000 years old or more. We have to break down those barriers, make the world equitable. That means in our sector more than anywhere else. They suffer the most when they don't have it. The problems are magnified because of our biologies and the social-cultural impact of when we get it right is so worth the effort. So there is now in 2019 a non-negotiable. As I hope in 2020 we shouldn't be talking about gender equity. It should be taken for granted in our sector. And I believe water and sanitation can be the exemplar in this. Utilities especially in emerging economies have a problem. They have a problem of a mixture of poor people and rich people. And yet all these people need water in order to be able to achieve goal number 6 of SDGs. So we are looking at utilities being able to discuss with their governments so that they can give them grants to be able to finance those people who cannot be able to get water. And be able to charge those who can pay so that there is some cross subsidy within the system. We are also looking at utilities to be able to use technology because technology is important. Technology helps these utilities to be more efficient. Technology helps these utilities to be more productive. We are also looking at governance. Governance is very, very important. With poor governance, most utilities especially in emerging economies have got a problem. So we are looking at that also. We are also looking at staff. Utilities must engage their staff. There is no utility that is going to make a difference if the staff there are not doing a good job. So I am basing all this on the case study of national water, what we have been able to do in national water, increasing geographical coverage and also increasing the turnover in the last 6 years. We have increased our turnover more than 3 times. We now correct over 100%. The profits have grown almost 3 times. We are also emphasizing collaboration. We need to collaborate. We are no longer talking of best practice now, we are talking of next practice. A practice which is better than the way you are doing things and you can achieve this through collaboration. Utilities especially in emerging economies, they need to know that they can do it. This business of thinking that someone else will come and do it for you is not correct. In national water we have done it. We continue to use a do it ourselves policy and it is helping us. So let us believe in ourselves. Let us know that the utilities we manage are the utilities to serve our countries so that we can help our countries to grow to better standards. Good morning everybody. We are ready to start our third day here at the conference. My name is Tom Kunit. I am the immediate past president of the Water Environment Federation and I come from Chicago in the United States. This is my first time in Sri Lanka. By show of hands, how many people here is your first time visiting Sri Lanka? And keep your hands up if you intend to come back again someday. Yeah, I do too. I was fortunate to be able to have a few days before the conference where I spent in central Sri Lanka in the mountain region. Very beautiful region. And I went hiking up to a mountaintop, a place called Ellorock. It was raining the entire time. Muddy trails, wet slippery, but I made it to the top in order to see a big cloud in front of me. So I figured after a while I'm going to go, but just before I left the wind shifted and the cloud moved away for about 30 seconds so I could look down and see this beautiful valley, very, very deep, wonderful, spread out valley. And I thought, that's what it is like sometimes with us coming up with ideas. We work and we work and we work and all we see is a cloud in front of us. And then at one moment when we're not even thinking, suddenly the idea comes to us. Psychologists talk about the work that's going on in our subconscious to make connections and push it forward into the consciousness. Thank you. I'm a little tall for this. And so when we work towards innovation, we're talking about innovation on our panel today, it is something that was often has to work at and that the connections are not always immediately made. It takes some patience, it takes some effort and some relaxing and letting those thoughts and the ideas connect and make those connections. And we're going to be talking about that today. So to start off this very good session on innovation to overcome global water challenges, we have a excellent keynote speaker who is perfect for talking about the topic of innovation. We have Valerie Nidu. Now Valerie is the executive manager of business development and innovations at the Water Research Commission where she has worked for the past 10 years. And Valerie is also the past president of the Water Institute of South Africa and the previous chair of the Board of the Water Institute of South Africa. And she has her master's and PhD degrees from the University of KwaZulu, Natal. So please give a warm welcome for Valerie Nidu. I'm a little short, so I'm not going to stand behind the podium. And as you can see in the interest of gender equality, the title is in pink. So today I'm going to be speaking about innovation to overcome global water challenges. So if we look at essentially what are the challenges that drive innovation? So we speak a lot about urbanization. So you see the lovely picture of a city and we speak about climate change and we speak about rising sea levels. How is that going to affect us? Increased amounts of CO2 and the ice caps melting. So when we talk about climate change, we talk about all of these things. How do we manage it? How do we prepare for the future? Then we speak also about industrialization and different countries at different stages. But generally when we speak about industrialization, you speak about these massive factories making things at scale. Now we start talking about the fourth industrial revolution and robotics. And at the same time we're also always actually aware of biodiversity. So one needs to protect your biodiversity, especially in the water sector because it's where you draw much of your water from. However, when you speak about these four drivers of innovation, you also have to look at it through a different lens. And the developing world lens is essentially urbanization that looks like that. Lots of informal settlements. Cities growing at a far more rapid rate. Then we are used to. Essentially with climate change in most of these countries, the infrastructure is not there. The resiliency is not there. And so it has a direct impact on livelihoods and people, on their houses. They don't have insurance. And so it has very different repercussions to some of the stuff we talk about in science. And when we talk about industrialization, I mean it's a nice thing and people put growth plans in place, etc. But many countries struggle to actually reach the kind of industrialization and economic growth plans that they work towards. And as a result, they don't necessarily have the sufficient capital to invest in the sort of water solutions that they want. And of course, when we start talking about biodiversity, if you're coming from a science background, you want to protect everything. You want to protect the trees and the forests and the rivers. But there's a human factor to it. And that human factor is around livelihoods. People live off the land. They fish. They chop wood. They basically live off the spaces in which they've been living for hundreds of thousands of years. Sorry. Pressing it backwards. Okay, so if one looks at the space of these four major challenges that drive innovation, if you look through an innovation lens, it's very different to a developed world versus a developing world. And I think we need to be aware of that. So innovations in that space can be very different for these two types of environments. So what are the big areas that we talk about when we talk about research? We talk about the SDGs. How do we attain it? It has a whole lot of things that we're supposed to do and we prepare for it. So do we prepare by learning from others? Possibly. Research is learning from others. It doesn't work for our environment. We don't have the same governance systems. We don't have the same revenue models. We don't have the same economic growth. We don't have the same capacity and capability on the ground to roll out some of these solutions. And we don't have enough water in some areas as simple as that. When one starts talking about climate change, one starts talking about the possibility of vulnerability. And it's good enough to understand what is the vulnerability of the different cities. But we also start talking about resilience. How do I build resilient cities? How do I work towards resilient cities and what actually constitutes resilience? Is it about infrastructure and infrastructure protection in water? It is to some extent. But I would say it's more about how do you build resilient societies? How do societies are able to adapt to some of the disruptions that we would expect in the future? In those spaces, I would go so far as to say therein lies a whole lot of innovation opportunities and potentials. Largely because you're talking about households. How do I prepare households to be more resilient towards some of the disruptions that we see in future? The water energy food nexus, another big area that we actually drive innovations through water security, energy security, food security, through the nexus eye is critical in most of the spaces that we are working with. We know that as our water levels deplete in some of these areas, food security becomes far more tenuous. And of course with food security comes a whole lot of destabilization effects. And the one that most of us have been playing around if you're in the research and development space is around the circular economy. So we all know what the intent is. We want to transform waste into something that's useful, something that's beneficial. But how do you do it? We haven't quite figured out our value chains yet. We haven't quite figured out our revenue models. So in those spaces, how do we accelerate innovations that emanate from those four domains? Now if I look at some of the developing countries the way if we had to use a largely linear process it is unlikely that we would make any significant change in the space of transforming or moving any of those categories forward. And the reason I say this is because to a large extent if I look at the Water Research Commission at our portfolio, and this is a funnel which basically is speaking to the stage gate process. And I can say at the scale up pre-com phase there's a whole lot of tech that just sits there for decades if anything. And so the question is, you know, I've developed this, I've scaled it up, somebody liked it but I can't get more than one municipality maybe to test it. So how do we move it to commercialization? And it's quite clear that we have a problem in the system around innovations. And in this space there's a whole lot if you look at the bottom layer in the South African system at least. The point is that all of them are not aligned. They're all not streamlined. They all don't have the same priority areas and they don't fund critical mass into an area. And so the likelihood is you've got this lone innovator or tech developer and they actually just move through the system knocking on doors and basically never quite gets to where they're supposed to be. Is that innovation good or bad? That's hard to say sometimes because sometimes the technology is not failing. The system is failing. So one of the key things is we don't have enough money for innovation. So if we plot in the South African system itself from where we do basic research and who funds that space. Yes, it's not up there with most of the I would call fast growing economies where they're putting 2%, 3%, 4% of their GDP or maybe their R&D. But we got sufficient in the system. And then if you look at all the other funders and you say, well, is there enough funds for companies, SMMEs, innovators, tech developers to actually move the technology forward most of them would say yes, we have enough funds. The point again is that it takes a whole lot of bureaucracy, a whole lot of paperwork, a whole lot of business cases, a whole lot of proposals and innovators to keep jumping through that space. And so is this the ideal way in which we drive innovation? I would say that for some of the innovation if it is really, really innovative and it's going to be a game changer, you've got enough funds allocated to investors, et cetera, it's going to hit the market. But by and large in the system itself whether it emanates from universities or some of the smaller startups the likelihood is it will fail. We in the research and development space often speak about the early stage value of debt and we speak about the innovation chasm that's the first chasm that you see there. But if one asks the question so how do I take it to the commercial market you start to see there is another chasm in some of the spaces. So what is that second chasm? If you're disrupting a space you actually have to develop a market in that space. There must be a willingness to pay for that, there must be aspirational value in terms of wanting to move there. You've got to move a system in that space. So there it's not just a case of getting the ransom sense right or should I say the dollars right in that space but it's also about how do you create that market around new spaces. And who does it? Who does it in this entire system? Is it the innovator? Is it the public sector? Is it the private sector? Is it the consumer? We all play in the space. And of course industrialization right we all want to move to scale up models we want rather than do one job at a time sell one tech at a time can we move to scale up models? The truth is in the water sector if you look at the level of where we're thinking about some of the technologies the SMM is the tech developers they don't even think at that level so they don't think about scale up differently and if you don't think about scale up differently then you don't explore the opportunities that are already in the system so currently in the water sector we all think about 100 megaliter per day plant so scale up for us is large how about 100,000 one kiloliter plants is that possible? That's for me where innovation challenges need to shift especially around developing countries because again I don't think we have enough money to put large infrastructure in place over this interim period while we're developing so I'm going to use an example here you must have seen quite a bit around the sanitation space but I thought maybe to take you through the process of why we've kind of shifted in there on the top you see some very nice pictures those are pictures of South Africa so very developed, affluent in many of these spaces these are off-grid spaces so either we're trying to force green building spaces either we've got eco estates and holiday spaces or we've got these nodes in South Africa where we call these the gas stations or the filling stations and all of them are looking for either decentralized or off-grid systems so they're all looking for how to move into something that's a little bit more green should I say and right now they come knocking on the door and there's nothing really there other than a smaller version of a centralized plant a decentralized system of course on the bottom end you see the challenges around whether it's informal settlements or the hilly terrains that you have to put water and sanitation in or the very rural remote spaces where to be honest a pipeline or a network solution is not possible so this idea of urban and rural the two extremes what's the missing middle now years of research both globally locally within South Africa led us to believe that there are certain key insights that were coming across continuously and there was an aspiration so in South Africa that aspiration was I would like the convenience of a flushing toilet but in some areas we don't have water and in some areas we're never going to get a reticulated system so what do you provide them in between of course the opportunity that we could have taken here is to go and look for one technology at a time one technology at a time and basically say okay let's keep testing it through these different stages that I spoke about before but the likelihood is you're not going to really transform a system you're not really going to get impetus or critical mass in that area so the way we looked at it was to create a sanitation transformative initiative and in this space we first set a vision the first vision that we set was actually a science or engineering vision one of disruption we said let's disrupt the space and then we set a vision of advocacy and in this space it wasn't just us alone there was a small committed mass of people also thinking a little bit differently in this space so it's about global friends and local friends bringing them together and that advocacy started to grow and in South Africa we said well okay if we're going to move to this awkward situation can we think about this differently is it one tender at a time one spec for one settlement at a time or can we think about this as a potential sunrise industry especially in terms of where we were seeing this technology go and so we actually were able to plot an industrial pathway possibility when we set this innovation challenge and this was linked to things that previously in the innovation space we wouldn't be thinking about from a research development and innovation commission we're thinking about manufacturing, distribution, servicing models and how do I develop the market of course you have to have the right policy right because public sector doesn't move without the right policy in place and there we worked with our department of water and sanitation I'm happy to say their new sanitation paper is all inclusive of this new non-sewed off grid sanitation systems and inclusive of the circular economy concepts that we're driving market development so how do you shift markets in this space well the guys that were doing the ISO standard we quickly adopted that in South Africa so we now have an SABS 3500 standard and we actually envisage a number of other standards that will come in this place standards related to the products that some of these technologies will actually create and then from there I'm happy to say that last week we went into another meeting this time our national department that's involved in building regulations they said well we're happy to now include the standards in the building regulations so now these off grid household systems have a standard and a building regulation attached to it what does this mean? it signals to the sector that they can now go and start looking for the kind of technologies that we want of course the designation and the model tender specification will come as we roll out this program going forward but those are two of the other key components that will lead to a market development process the third one was technology so we didn't again look at one tech at a time we looked at the basket, we've got the gates program we're not going to reinvent the wheel we're essentially going to look inside and outside and we're going to do the connectivity between these processes why? some people were looking at developing the front part of the toilet others were looking at developing the back end of the toilet some would full recycle system, some would systems that were on the sort of thermal pathway of transforming the waste fully so it's about looking at everything that's in the basket and others were looking at how do I actually have the servicing models that is able, if I separate urine for example make that into a product and use it in the agricultural space so there are various other models that we are seeking in that space and it's important to understand that not a single tech but a system of tech that is out there and ultimately our vision is that the strongest will survive the ones where the market actually is able to say that's the kind of product I want will survive and all we are doing is creating the enabling environment scale up becomes important you have to demonstrate why is it important to demonstrate you de-risk, you build confidence but in this space it's also about the interface with the consumer so there's a whole lot of consumer testing that will go in how are people interacting with this and we are happy that we included as well the gender intentionality that Gates has actually asked us to bring in which is important and to some extent we didn't really think about that by design but I think it was a valid sort of inclusion in that space and so we started to say to our SMMEs and our tech developers you need to start thinking about localization you need to start thinking about industrialization we will match make you you need to start thinking about your value chain development and then we had a whole range of other discussions with partners investors and various partners within the sector bringing them all the time towards what we call the shared vision the shared risk the shared knowledge and hopefully in time a shared impact finally we do know that such a system will need a retraining of the workforce so the idea is you will have to build in some sort of academy it's not just simple knowledge dissemination it's actually new practice that will come into being so why did I put this up? this is an example of where you want to make a big shift in the system it's not just about just seeking the one tech it's about seeking a toolbox of tech and toolbox of commercial or business models that may be applicable in the system and in the developing world I do think we need more thinking around the different revenue models the different delivery models and the different institutional models that will actually enable it our CEO coined so when we were looking at the vision we actually plotted the industrial pathway but our CEO coined the term that if we were going to realize this in the future that actually you might have the first as he put it the SaniCon in the sanitation space the first billion dollar company if we are able to get that technology up and running so is that thinking around the framing of the transformative way in which we bring all partners together in which we collaborate, in which we co-create and in which we actually move the system forward it is not unique as you can see guys that study this kind of thing they were able to say okay you have a landscape and you have a current regime and actually every now and then you will have a small group of actors that have a common vision that have a certain expectation of the way they want to see the world transforming and that that small group is the one that actually intervenes and shifts a system and I think that's what that example shows you but there are probably many other examples of how we could actually cluster projects in that space but for a niche to develop and I want to be very clear it must be driven by key insights you must understand what it is you're driving it is not my pet project or anyone in the water sector it is what is good for your community and your society and are they willing to accept that this is a better way forward from where they have come and I think that's the critical thing when you want to make a transformative sort of shift in the system so finally ladies and gentlemen I'm just going to leave you with the following thoughts there's a very nice ideation methodology think wrong by a US company and they often say that sometimes in our technical space we're very quick to say no but you know normally you don't have the technical acumen therefore you should not be designing for that system but maybe every now and then and if you're in the innovation space you should be saying yes and why because your knowledge plus that innovator can actually create something quite significant so stop saying no but let's start saying yes and and then the possibilities are there in the innovation space so with that thank you thank you very much Valerie that was wonderful and well there's a lot there that I think we could continue to listen to her about but we're going to continue now with the panel get some other perspectives on this and I'd like to invite up to the stage now our panel members here so we're going to start with Dr. Mohan she's a fellow and senior scientist in the energy and resources institute in New Delhi and she's also an honorary associate professor at Deakin University in Australia we'd also like to invite up here Dr. Mohan who is a senior professor of environmental and water resources engineering at the Indian Institute of Technology and he is also very well respected in the field receiving many awards including the very prestigious John Penny Cusick Eminent Engineer Award so Dr. Mohan I'd like to bring up to the stage Maria Lara Fernandez who is the deputy CEO of National Research and Innovation Agency in Uruguay Pallavi Bishnoi who is an expert for the World Bank 2030 water resources group and the Norwegian water cluster located in India and she also acts as a technical core expert for the state of Uttar Pradesh government to support policy so let's give all of our panelists a hand please so we're going to build on the things that Valerie talked about and I want to start off asking a question here for Maria Fernandez since you are with an organization and institute with the name innovation is right in the title there why don't you talk about a little bit your perspectives about how your institute and the work that you do the work to actually the measures to drive innovation in the sector first of all good morning for everyone and thank you very much for your invitation to take part of this panel thank you very much for your presentation as you said I am from the national research and innovation agency that's in Uruguay as you know Uruguay is a very small country in health America and basically what we do is ANI is a governmental institution that fosters and promotes research and innovation and the main mission is to apply the knowledge in the productive sector that's basically the main point and the approach is exactly that Valerie explained to us before combining all the key players and we have several tools but basically answering your question we have tools directly oriented to the companies to the productive sector with innovation tools financing project basically sharing with the companies the risk of innovating and also we have the national scholarship system where we try to send students to study in Uruguay or abroad it's a graduate program for masters and PhD and in connection with the water specifically we have a very important agreement with IHE and Delft to send a student to study masters and PhD there in sanitation field wonderful thank you very much for that Nupur I'm going to ask you the next question and if you work in India how do you work towards the SDGs particularly SDG 6 with regard to the water challenges and of course we have in your region a number of those challenges so how do you see the role of technology and technological innovation in overcoming those challenges in developing nations like India good morning everyone and thank you IWA for giving me a chance to answer the question the role of technological innovation as we see in a developing country as Valery has also maintained that for a developing country it has its own challenges and particularly developing country like India having diverse so much diversity and earlier like we had different set of challenges we were focusing mainly on the innovation aspect and building these even networks and all but recently with the leadership and the focus on all aspects of SDG and particularly SDG 6 so our focus is on covering all the aspects and particularly taking technology innovation as you say so we are working in the space of technology and as innovation we are thinking of centralized wastewater treatment systems now we have come up to decentralized systems now then we were working on the latest emphasis on smart cities redefining the toilets then the sanitation needs and covering the different aspects then the technology aspects if you say we are more into looking at different aspects let's say in water sector so the leakage problems or identification or the monitoring system so IoT has a good space in India now so Indian Government and also the corporate so we now in India are focusing more on technology and innovation right into implementation in that space so here the technology has a major role to play. Thank you so I am going to move to you Dr Mohan and we have just heard from about the the technology to drive innovation and you are a person from the university with technical background and you drive technology but is technological innovations enough is that sufficient for solving the water problems okay good morning to all of you so thanks to IWA I strongly feel that technology innovation alone may not be sufficient for solving water problems especially I am taking example from developing countries where we need a good partnership model otherwise we start the kind of system but the operational and maintenance side we are having a break failure and the second one we need a good business model which may be site specific it may not be possible for a business model which can be applicable globally everywhere so we may have to come up with some kind of a business model and third one is finance so finance is very important even though it's part of the business but I think we have to put little more effort on this particular one why I am saying is we have been developing lot of technology and we are still at the initial stage we have not had a full form very much we are now starting only on the data collection on a real time maybe you know we may have to adapt very quickly on the cloud or maybe artificial intelligence or machine learning where we may have to implement all these technologies then only then it will be possible to see the light of the day on the impact of the technological innovations so towards that I would say that we should also make a lot of changes in the system one is I strongly feel that the water requirement per capita per day which is around 135 liters which is really high especially for developing countries and we create infrastructure to carry that much water from almost 120 kilometer from the source to the city on the other hand if I can we know that it can be managed with less amount 70 or 50 or 100 maximum if I can do that then I can reduce lot of losses reduce lot of infrastructure that finance I can use it for operation maintenance so the main problem with the water infrastructure is we have less kind of infrastructure so if we can doubt all these models I think we can adapt to these technological innovation otherwise innovation alone may not be able to sustain in the system for sustainable development that's my opinion thank you and that echoes very well what Valerie had talked about too about looking at those new models the different approaches she talked about in her presentation she spent a good amount of time talking about technologies that are in their infancy and many of them stall and that are not able to move on to the next level so Pallavi I'd like to talk to you and ask you to speak to this issue of how technologies can move into a place of scale up as is necessary in order to get them implemented first of all brilliant presentation Valerie very insightful I love that curve the valley curve that you presented I think it kind of goes very well with what happens on the ground with innovations so and like professor Mohan said it's not just about innovation but also capacity building of the system to accept and adapt innovation the implementation of this innovation on the ground most of these innovations die out because the systems don't have that kind of capacity to adapt to it and when it comes to scaling up I honestly feel the government plays a big role in the water sector and that's something that has to be kept in the loop when we look at these innovations by keeping the government at the bay that's where we get blindsided so in India right now in my state we're running multi stakeholder partnerships to address the key water management issues and we're bringing in the private sector the government the civil society and the academia together and we can come up with solutions which are ground up and which require so when it comes to implementation there's lesser resistance going through the system and the policy making is easier because it's coming from the government itself this question statement is coming from the government and we have the innovators sitting on the other side of the table giving answers to those questions and the private sector to take it up for scaling so I feel that kind of models innovative models for partnerships could really work well when it comes to scaling up of these innovations Thank you so Valerie I'm going to bring you into the conversation here as Justice Pavlavi talked about ground up solutions and you're talking about perspectives you have an urban perspective a developed world perspective versus developing nation perspective so these perspectives all have values but how do you then bring them together and integrate them in particular we also talk about top down models versus bottom up and each one has their own value so could you speak a little bit from your perspective on the top down versus bottom up in terms of driving innovation so I actually think from a world perspective because you're talking about water and sanitation a pure bottom up requires a little bit of a helping hand from a top down system so you do require the signaling the incentives to be in place and it also requires the top the leadership to start thinking around what would enable this environment to develop and grow and so there they can do a lot of work whether it's around policy or incentives or just bringing the right stakeholders to the table we all work in spaces where government departments have specific mandates and sometimes they interpret those mandates in a certain way we also have government departments that have silos within their own organization so there's a whole lot of what I call disruption not only that the technology may bring to the water sector but implementing that technology will require disruption in the system itself to think differently and to come up with the kind of models and enabling environments for those things to happen and again because it's not universal it's not one size that may fit all it may be that the developing and developed take different trajectories going forward and maybe in the future this sort of scaled onsite non-suit sanitation might become the norm of the future what if we are able to find a really sustainable thermal technology that you can put into your house like an air con and it's affordable what if we are able to scale up at that level then you're talking something completely different than planning the next 100 megaliter per day or 400 megaliter per day sort of waste water treatment plan so the economics may shift completely but you've got to allow the incubation space and creative thinkers to actually come to the fore and I think for me that's the biggest message think differently understand that you're not just there about providing services and solutions you're also about creating the enabling environment for innovations to take hold great thank you so let me build on that because in order to have disruptions we want to think differently as you said to think differently and going back to your slide you said talk about think wrong so that means asking these big questions asking the question why or why not what if so I'm going to open this up to the other four panelists here what would be these big why questions that you would want to ask what would you want to say that is going to change and disrupt the status quo so that we can have this transformational change that Valerie talked about what would you say would be some of these big why why not questions that you would like to ask who would like to start Dupur you mean to say like why we have to ask so regarding the technology innovation when we talk about any so the requirement is as very well said the disruption in the thinking first of all at the first place and when as a technology developer we move out so we really need the support the ecosystem and the we need first the end user for which we have developed the technology together with us then as well said top down and bottom up approach so we need a regulatory system and an ecosystem to fund and up scale so in India particularly now we have come up with such encouraging models so we have start up India campaign scale India so with this our government is encouraging us so we have developed the innovation scale and regarding those questions which we as an innovator ask where to go whom to approach now they are being addressed so hopefully innovation space as it is growing we look forward to implementation and development I full agree with the question because that I think that that's the main point I was thinking about that we have different countries and we are talking basically about the same topic how to combine the different actors from the society in order to increase the innovation and through the innovation to go away with our countries and why because in our experience and we are full convinced of that it's the only way to go away and to develop our reality and the main point is how to find the way to build the bridge between the knowledge and the public sector and the productive sector and how to combine all that's the main issue how to combine the actors that you were describing the public sector of course the state the public resources but also the the investors the all the stakeholders and that's the way that we consider that we need to find and the tools that we have in our agency add all of them in order to foster that process thank you I just wanted to give an idea on that the wastewater we always call as a wastewater but it is not actually a wastewater I think there should be a change in our mindset there's only used water and normally it is having only 1% pollution so if I can use this greywater treat it with a simple treatment techniques then I think we can solve the local problem as such so in fact now for the city we are now implementing that we are recycling an apartment so it cannot be sent out so with a simple sand filter and pressure filter and also the zero it's like a zero liquid discharge which will be really reducing the load on the wastewater treatment plant or used water treatment plant in fact we can recovery plant it will be called as a reclamation plant or recovery plant if our mindset changes I think there will be a lot more we can do a rather than sending the wastewater to again polluting the water bodies so that's one and the second one I feel strongly still we have not considered water as an economic good we always take it as a free commodity in many of the countries so I think if we can attach the economy with that I think there will be a lot more change that why not we do that great great so why not treat the waste on site and why are we calling it waste why can we not think about value Pallavi do you have something on this I think we are running out of time but I think my only why is going to be why is it taking so long for us I mean we've been meeting over over the years and discussing these systems so I just want to understand why is it taking so long for us to transform these systems I mean we make the systems I want to ask from how many years did it take for you to establish the sanity all the aspects of it so for that so my colleague Jay over there is passionate about shit and he basically talks about the past 10 or 15 years and out of that came the insight and that's why we talk about sanity insanity is the play on the words because to some extent it's insane we're putting a whole lot of VIP toilets on the ground and they fill up within 2 to 3 years because the design specs are all incorrect et cetera there's pollution happening on the ground there's health and hygiene impacts and so you have to then say is this the best we can offer and once you start asking that question then you start thinking a little bit differently about what could be out there that could actually fit for that sort of community and settlement type and of course then you can think bigger the cities of the future could be retrofitted with these systems if we develop it enough we've sent people to the moon surely we can develop toilets better well with that I think I'm going to unfortunately have to bring this to an end even though it was a very enlightening discussion and maybe leave the audience with thinking yourself about asking those big questions asking those why questions that are going to disrupt things why do we have to do things this way and then continue to probe into that there is something that I learned from a Japanese business culture about the five why's you don't stop by once but you dig down five times asking why to probe deeper and deeper to get to some changes and some disruption so with that I want to make a few announcements before we completely conclude here immediately following this panel discussion right outside there in the lobby in front of the IWA pavilion is going to be the celebration for the world water loss day so today is world water loss and it's our first celebration to recognize the importance of curbing the loss of water so please join us out there front for that celebration for those of you who would are joining us for the Gala this evening and please do immediately following the closing session out front of this hall there will be buses to shuttle us to the Gala so just make sure when you're finished with the closing session just move on out to the front and there will be shuttle buses for you and our next sessions will be starting at 10 30 a.m. this morning can we please have a big round of applause for all of our panelists thank you and enjoy your conference