 My name is Marcy Sklow, welcome to Going Deeper. Today I'm sitting with the Reverend Dr. Andrea Vazian. Andrea is a long time activist, social justice activist and a Reverend pastor and her latest big endeavor, very creative endeavor is the Sojourner Truth School for Social Change Leadership. Perfect. I did that very well. Perfect, perfect. So we're now embarking on part two of this interview. Welcome. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah. So instead of asking you a question, a question, a question, this is the kind of thing I'd like to cover in the next 30 minutes. I wanna really hear a lot about the school. Good. And it is amazing what you all are doing. I wanna hear also about your work regarding being an ally. And I interviewed Irvin Stalb in the past and his work on active bystander ship was resonating for me a little bit in terms of the ally thing. And then if there's time a little more about the anti-racism work that you're doing would be fine. So I don't know where you wanna start with all of that because it kind of all feeds together. It does. Yeah. Shall we start with some comments about the school? Sure. And then we can get to ally behavior and ally shifts. Exactly. I'm delighted that you are a supporter and a fan of the Sojourner Truth School for social change leadership, which we often call the truth school. And I will tell you how it came into being and how we're doing briefly. I, as we talked about in the first half hour, was the pastor of the Haydenville Congregational Church for 12 years and announced my retirement from that church in the summer of 2016 and announced that I would be leaving in 2017. And it was the summer of 2016 that never occurred to me that Trump would win. It just didn't occur to me. I thought I would move into retirement and paint and write poetry and visit Sasha and Austin and have a nice life. It didn't occur to me that the world was about to shift. And then I had announced and then in November, Trump won the election. And I really became very depressed and very distressed. And in January of 2017, I made a long train trip for three days to Austin, Texas to see my son. And I was really very inside. And as Quakers would say, under the weight of it, I was under the weight of it. That Trump had won and I'm a lifelong activist. And I had lost my bully pulpit. I had lost my church and my community and the people with whom I had been so active. And I was very troubled. And I started saying a mantra to God, which was I am your servant, show me a sign, show me anything I am supposed to do in the Trump years that will make a difference. And it was on the train trip home that I received or I had the sense or vision or whatever of the Sojourner Truth School for Social Change Leadership. And it literally came to me. And I called Michael, my partner, my husband now, from the train and said, I've had this idea. And he said, run with it. He said, oh, you got zapped again. He calls it when I get zapped. He said, oh, you got zapped again. I didn't have the title then, but I had the idea. What we are is a nonprofit that offers movement building, very concrete, skill building, movement building classes in Greenfield, Northampton, Eastampton, Holyoke and Springfield. All the classes are free and we pay our trainers. And we use sites that already exist so we have no overhead of a location or an office or a building. So we use synagogues and church basements, lots of libraries, union halls, GCC, HCC. We use any place that'll have us that's on the bus route, on a bus route, is wheelchair accessible, doesn't charge us and welcomes us. And we teach everything from how to write an op-ed, how to write a great letter to the editor, how to speak in public, how millennials and elders can organize together, how we just, how to hold on to hope in hard times, how to sing songs of freedom and struggle, how to, we, this is our catalog for this fall and it has 56 classes in it, 56 classes between September 1 and the end of 2018. Oh my gosh, so that's only like three months. That's right, that's four months, three and a half months where we have 56 classes. And we meet on Tuesday nights, Thursday nights, Saturdays and Sundays. And the trainers are diverse, we have a very diverse pool of trainers. And a fifth of the classes are in each of the cities. What we're finding, Marcy, is that because the classes are free, we're just crossing lines, we're crossing boundaries of people who are middle income, people who are low income, people who are wealthy. Because we're in three counties, people are crossing county lines. So people in Greenfield are thinking, I really like that class in East Hampton and are coming, people in North Hampton are going to Springfield. People from Springfield are coming up to Holyoke. We're breaking down silos and we're finding that at the end of classes, people are taking out their phones and saying, now what's your name again and putting each other in their phones and saying, I'll beat your rally now, don't forget our fundraiser, that's happening. So the network is growing, the movement is building and the silos are sort of coming down. It's really a remarkable thing. We have a nonviolent army of volunteers, we have a lot of faithful people coming and we evaluate every class with a very formal evaluation process and people also tell us at the bottom of their evaluation sheets what classes we're not offering that they wish was there so then we can be very responsive and so we've added more on anti-racism, we've added more on cross-generational work, we've added more for teens, we've added teen and millennial trainers because people have asked for it. Sure, I also just need to put in a plug because I've started volunteering, haven't yet done a class but I've started volunteering as a host and I went and picked up my supplies and I never could imagine how complicated it is to logistically have all these classrooms in all these different places so I got a bag with a beautiful logo on it the True School and all my supplies and that was a whole other aspect of creative organization. And you know, what's really coming through is that I'm such a long time anti-racism workshop leader and trainer and nonviolent direct action trainer, I've done so many thousands of workshops that as a trainer I thought what do trainers need, what do leaders and teachers need and I thought somebody to pamper them. So we made the host program and you thank you Marcy and all these other men and women get there early, put the chairs in a circle, give everybody a name tag and frankly it is logistically complicated. We are using places we don't own so you have to get keys and show up and turn up the heat and lock up and so the host program is a huge hit because the trainers are being pampered. I was thinking if there is one person who gets some jolt of inspiration or some training that helps them move forward in making our world a better place, I'm all over setting up chairs and cleaning up the room and turning down the heat and sweeping up or whatever is needed. You know, it's all part of the work. There you go and we've heard stories already because I had the idea on January 29th, 2017 and we opened May one. We opened May one and have been running classes ever since so we've run 168 classes and we've trained almost 2000 people and what we're hearing Marcy is that people are coming back to us and saying I went to the peacekeeper training and three weeks later I was a peacekeeper at a marching rally in Springfield. I went to Michael Clare's publisher parish and then I wrote my first op-ed, it's coming out. We're seeing the results. So quickly. It's so, I've got chills right now because people are coming back to us and saying you taught us about effective consensus decision making and then I went to my affinity group and taught them. So we're hearing some of the feedback and some of the effects. That's amazing. I guess that in every way that you can let more people know about this is just gonna be important. How to market it in all these different ways. And that's the challenge because young people use social media so we're trying to use Twitter and Facebook and the things I don't do but some people in my generation really like a hard copy. They go through their little catalog and they circle things they're gonna go to. We leave these in bus stations. We leave them in doctor's offices. We leave them in lobbies. We leave them in bathrooms. We leave them in libraries. So there are people who are literally picking it up and there are people who are hearing about the school online. And also I'm imagining, you know, reverends and pastors and rabbis are announcing them. Totally, putting it in the bulletin. In the bulletins and in newsletters. Good, good. Well, it's so helpful in hard times to see that there is something we can do, you know? So I'm very happy about that. Thank you for being a host. We need you. Oh sure, I haven't done it yet but I will in a couple, like a week. Soon. Yeah, yeah. So talk about this concept of ally-ship, ally-ness and what that means. I mean, I think whites, also first of all, I just wanted to comment on your beautiful expression of your own history and your own background but it's interesting historically when all of these different sects, different cultures, all became white. And you know, like me too, you know, in different ways that in the past we weren't all seen as the privileged white. And now we kind of are all lumped into that and we have to own that. And how to talk to white people, all the different kinds of white people about their privilege and what they can do. So say some more about the ally-ship. That's such a great lead in because Irish, Armenians, Jews, other people who have been discriminated against and of course Jews by religion and anti-Semitism but when you think about people becoming white we remember that race is just a social construct that it has no biology, it has no basis in anything significant and it's a social construct for the purpose of exploitation. So a privileged group that became white through the various incarnations over time and a group that could be targeted or exploited that there would be a bifurcation and there would be a justification of that so that distortions and lies and histories, history was created, distorted misinformation, stereotypes and biases so a group or groups could be exploited and abused and depressed. But it has no basis in anything that is biological, sociological, anthropological that's completely gone, that's completely untrue. What I think is significant about allied behavior is that there are seven or eight forms of systematic oppression in this country. By gender, by race, by physical ability, by religion, by age, they're the isms, ageism, antisemitism, racism, sexism, homophobia, heterosexism, those are the isms. And what people tend to do is to identify very strongly with the place where they are targeted so that for me I'm dominant in every area except by gender. So to spend as we talked about in the first half hour to spend so many years talking about sexism in the only area where I was oppressed missed all the areas where I was dominant. I see. What allied behavior it does is it flips the script, it changes, it shifts the story and it says all the areas where you're dominant that's where you need to be active in partnership and speaking out in the areas where you get unearned advantage. And I get unearned advantage in six of the seven. So as a white, as a heterosexual, as a Christian, as a able-bodied person, I have privilege dripping from me when I walk in this room, when I drive home to Northampton, when I go to stop and shop any moment when I read The New York Times, any moment I am over-advantaged. And allied behavior says it's in those areas whether you're able-bodied or you're a Christian or you're a man or you're white, it's in those areas that you are called to this wonderful proud identity and the identity is as an ally. And the ally role is to see what has been made invisible to us for so long, which is our privilege. So that when you ask a white person to notice their privilege all day, it's like asking a fish to notice the water. What privilege? I'm in it all the time. But with training yourself to think how we are overly-advantaged as whites or as men or as people who are able-bodied or temporarily able-bodied as we say, tabs, or that we are able to see that we can speak out, we can notice who's not in the room, we can notice who's voice was silenced, we can notice who's safe and unsafe, and that we can speak to other people who look like us. So Marcy, you and I would be white allies able to support each other in swimming against the tide and in being outspoken people whose identity was allied behavior. I actually think that has been the biggest shift in my social activism to see myself as overly-advantaged, as having unearned advantage. It's not because I was so great, so smart, or so capable. It's because I was white and middle class and able-bodied and that advantages were just opened up before me. It's like I got a leg up everywhere I went. And whether it was housing or college or getting a mortgage for our home, people looked at me and Michael as a couple and thought, you're just what we had in mind. So I think it's very significant that we raise our kids to be allies at an early age. They get it, they can speak out, they are remarkable, and that we continue to work with people over time so people see their privilege, not just where they're targeted. And everyone can be an ally unless you are multiply, multiply, multiply, multiply targeted. There's some area where people have unearned advantage and can be outspoken as allies. And so that's why I think the concept and the identity and the activism is so important. So can you walk me through an example? I mean, you've been giving some examples, but let's take a white, let's take a coal miner from Kentucky. We just had this amazing Kentuckians coming to lever it and Paula was on my show and talked a lot about that. So let's think about Kentuckians who are in really a bad way because of the lack of work and how things are shifting in the economy. Yet they do have privilege. So how do you move them into this notion? I think we recognize and validate places where people are targeted and you start there. So you would start with somebody by saying you may be targeted by economic status. Poor people are targeted. They're targeted by classism. And that is difficult and presents every day of one's life challenges that in some days feel insurmountable. So people may, in using your example, feel targeted by class. They are targeted because they are poor. They may feel targeted by also that they're sort of geographic advantage that people believe that the stripes of the coasts that people are advantaged and they may feel targeted by regional biases and stereotypes. They also, I think everyone can recognize that white people in any setting, whether you're a coal miner or a CEO or in Hollywood or a nurse or a doctor, white people simply are treated with more respect, are safer in any interaction with the police, are underrepresented in prisons and on death row that even when one is targeted, one is advantaged if you are white. And that to ask people to hold the paradox and to hold the contradiction that we are targeted and privileged or dominant at the same time and that we have as Bev Tatum as Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum would say, we have multiple social identities and to help people see the whole picture that we are targeted and dominant at the same time. And in the areas that we're targeted, we want people to be our allies. Your example, we want people to speak up for economic injustice for the huge gap between rich and poor. We want our allies who are middle class and upper class to stand with poor people. And in the areas even when we're targeted where we have privilege, we want to stand with others who are targeted. So any white coalmire can still be an anti-racist even though they may be multiply targeted in other ways. It's complex, however, it is a way of thinking and moving through the world and it is an identity. We want others to stand with us when we're targeted and we want to stand with others where we have the advantage. And white is always, always, always, always an advantage. Beth Tatum and I like to say that when a racist incident happens on a college campus or university or a school or something, people think, oh my goodness, there's racism here. That's exactly the opposite. Racism is so old, so profound and so entrenched in America that racism is always present unless it's removed. So unless you have active anti-racist activity, racism has to be removed. Otherwise, it's simply right below the surface and going to rear the ugly head. Which is what we've seen historically in Amherst schools, for sure. Exactly. Exactly, precisely, you said it precisely. Yeah, I've had a few people on the show talking about that. Absolutely. Specifically. I know you have. Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so not to digress, but there is this movie that I really like called Pride. Have you seen this film? No. So the film is about these LGBT British young people who hear about the Welsh who are striking in their minds. I have seen it. And they decide that they wanna go and be allies to these Welsh coal miners. And they go there and at first, the Welsh are really mean to them. Really? And very discriminatory. And slowly, slowly, they accept them. One of the Welsh men admits he's gay. And there are these beautiful scenes of these two communities coming together. I did see it. And in the end, they go to a march together. To a Pride march. And there's the coal mine. There are the gay people. Absolutely. And they're completely, they're hugging. All these gay men are wearing pink boas. And the coal miners. And it is because people became real to each other. Because relationships break down biases. Because you can't hold a stereotype when this person is marching with you or lifting your cause. So when gay people who are targeted by homophobia and heterosexism, but are advantaged by class, team up with people who are targeted in other ways, there you have an example of targeted and dominant joining forces and becoming a voting block and a marching block for change. That, I have seen it. I forgot the name. It's so touching in the end when they're side by side in their arm in arm. It's a beautiful film. It's like we have an expression in my field as pastors, that's the in breaking of the kingdom. That the kingdom of God has moments when it breaks in to ordinary life on earth, when moments are perfect. When you have a perfect moment, it's an in breaking of the kingdom. When justice reigns, when peace is present, when people are safe, when kids are cared for, you'll have a moment that's an in breaking of the kingdom. The end of that moving when their arm in arm is in breaking of the kingdom. I love that expression because when we're looking for a movie to watch, we usually say we want it to be affirming, but this is much more specific to what we want, which is the in breaking of the kingdom. Wow. That's actually a very important concept for me to add to our interview. Because I believe it is what we are striving for every minute that the in breaking of the kingdom may be a moment today and two minutes tomorrow and an hour next week, and that we are creating, I would say, the kingdom of God on earth, even if there are just fleeting moments today, we are creating the vision we hold of people safe, of kids cared for, of the earth honored, of justice reigning, of peace present, that's the kingdom. And that we work towards it and walk towards it every day, all the time. And we have experiences of it that are tangible. You've had them. You've had them on the show with people speaking about their lives and visions and work. Sure, yeah, yeah. It's reminding me a little bit in 12 step work, the notion of spiritual awakening. So that in breaking of the kingdom is kind of like having a spiritual awakening or some sort of a epiphany or an enlightened moment. And there are religious leaders who say, it's not just something out there that we aspire to. We have those. We might have a dull period, but from time to time or multiple times a day, we do have those. Absolutely. And it goes hand in hand with we are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the leaders we've been waiting for. It isn't someday, it's now. The choices I make about the choices we all make about our time, about our dollars, about our energy, about our speech, about our activism, we are the ones we've been waiting for to make the change that is right around the corner and the in breaking of the kingdom today. It's a wonderful, wonderful image that I love, that I hold on to. And a wonderful place to stop. Yes. Our interview. Perfect. So thank you so much. Thank you so much, Marcy. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. And thank you all for watching. I wanna do a shout out to Amherst Media. Thank you so much to the interns and the staff and everyone here who makes these shows possible. And also, if you'd like to see any of my shows, you can also go to marcysclove.com to see them there. Okay, thank you. Well, when I was a little boy, he said, son, let me tell you about that.