 All right says go so I guess we could go It's really aggressive go It's a demand. I will not be bullied. Yeah I'm not ready to go. Yeah, it's right. I'll go when I'm ready Anyway, welcome back everybody. We're here for a fire and ice here. We are this is one of these we did ridiculous Stupid it's humor. It's humor in recovery right right here as we call ourselves fire and ice for no apparent reason except for You have a history of playing hockey and I live in California. That's it. It is such a stretch and it's ridiculous It's absurd to the point of ridiculous and like almost cringy. So I like it. I like it Fire nice. What's with them? What are they? I hope so Anyway for those who do not know fire nice Is Lauren Rosen LMFT therapist in California and a friend of mine. We do these on a pretty regular basis We talk about anxiety and anxiety recovery different topics that you guys want us to cover. So welcome back Lauren Welcome back. And if you're joining from from my platform, that's drew lintelata right there. He's great The anxious truth. He's got a podcast. He's got books. He's got an instagram platform. He's got it all I don't know when this turned into a you commercial When exactly right when did it turn into a commercial a drill? I like it though because Oh, thank you. Well, we're always joking around which brings us to our topic today Which is humor where does humor fit in in the whole anxiety disorder and recovery complex? We're both kind of jokesters. We spend a lot of time just cracking ridiculous comments to each other so Clearly because life gets way too serious and sad if you don't if you don't bring a little humor into it, right? Yeah, so where do we think it fits in? I'm gonna put all the pressure on you just like when the thing says go Go dance monkey So I uh One of the things that pops into mind immediately is especially with exposure work because it's all so doom and gloom And this horrible thing could happen to you because that's sort of the radio doom and gloom that's playing in your head all the time That Sometimes we forget that optimism is actually an exposure In a way that's good That's not something I and my therapist shared that with me. I was like, oh, yeah, that's a good point Actually really good. I never would have thought of that exposure, okay expecting That good things will happen is scary Yeah, because there's no protection in that I'm not already against the bad if I'm just allowing good things or I'm expecting good things right Right. So having this levity this playfulness this Yeah, maybe the bad thing does happen and and treating it lightly in and of itself is I think an an adjunct to support to exposure work Rather than keeping it always in this the the dark things Possibly gonna happen like yeah, maybe maybe that happens and maybe the good thing happens. I really don't know Okay I guess it's not really humor per se, but it's connected in a roundabout kind of a way Yeah, I mean at least it tends away from the dark clouds You know for sure if you're gonna let's optimism in I think like the humor for me I know in my own personals Humor is a lot easy to come by after the fact. I don't know if you found the same thing Like in the heat of the moment, there was no nothing was funny. I mean there's nothing You know when you're actually racked with it But sometimes it was funny the next day like in the you know when rationality got a chance to come back It was a little bit funny Down the road now the things that I did to me just cracked me the hell up I can't even imagine there's no logic behind it, but I did them anyway Yeah But even at the time the one that I and I tell the story often So I'm sure you guys some of you guys have heard this but I had this irrational fear that the the any new Food in the fridge had been tampered with so Hey, I would sure love some orange juice, but that's a brand new carton of orange juice and clearly it's been poisoned So I would just yeah, no natural. So what would you do about that? You would you throw it away and make sure that nobody gets poisoned? No I'll just let somebody else in the house drink it first Right so Now that is hilarious It was like What kind of a monster am I like these thoughts would be in my head button And the next day if I wasn't feeling it I would see the humor in that like that is patently absurd and the fact that I would let someone else drink it first Was just like really like I had to just roll my eyes at the absurdity of it and there was a little bit of funniness in that Absolutely Yeah, and allowing some of that did help me I think For sure and I think over time it gets closer to the moment of extreme anxiety when you can access this humor. So I was for instance, I can't even remember what it was about but That's probably six months ago and I I noticed an anxiety spike and I have a pretty solid mindfulness practice And so I noticed that my anxiety was starting to rev up and I texted my friend And I was like wow my anxiety. It's like it's spectacular right now. It's like a fourth of july firework show I mean wow The charts, you know, and it did it made me laugh While I was anxious I got to have both of those experiences I like that's the further down the road you get in your progress the closer the humor can get to the actual Distress so the humor in the stress sort of mix that could coexist. Yes. Yes Okay, it's a good No, I I don't disagree It's only the objective view of what's going on or a more objective view allows you to see the humor in it When you're entirely mired in the subjective and the judgment and this is the horrible and bad things are going to happen There's no humor Right when you can see for what it really is it does get a little funny There's a little bit more playfulness and I I think also as you Back off of the all-or-none thinking and the sense that life can only be good if it is without anxiety As you get a little further from that and recognize that no the whole point is to live a life that's full and anxious that there's a there's more Capacity to hold both simultaneously things can be funny and anxious or funny and terrifying and funny and sad All at once So there's a degree of like the psychological flexibility that is reflected and being Ready to laugh that even when things Yeah being able to do that. I think in the moment I know one thing that I've heard and to me. This is brilliant. I never thought of this But I've heard some people tell me that You know when you had the repeated experience of I'm in a crisis. I'm in a crisis Nothing happened when a crisis in a crisis. Oh nothing happened once you have that experience enough I've heard people who are able to say I can almost look at it as future me Like tomorrow me when this has passed I can almost see what tomorrow me will see and then they could start to almost make fun of it as a As a diffusion tool not a use but a diffusion tool So an acceptance and commitment therapy kind of diffusion de Pretty much like okay. I can think about what I'm gonna I can imagine what I'm gonna think about this episode tomorrow when I'm I know that nothing happened And now I can almost laugh at what I'm afraid of Yes, I think there's an important caveat to that which is if you don't take action Based on so the second that you start to do a safety behavior or the or a compulsion Your mind is then going to attribute your safety after the fact to the behavior And so if you do that then you don't get the learning right the learning that Oh, I guess I was okay. I was able to tolerate the the feelings. They ultimately passed It seems like the bad thing hasn't happened yet. So I guess I don't know It seems like I don't need to do that thing in order to survive And I think at that point you can then project in the future go. Oh, yeah, I've I know I've done this before and it's In the moment terrifying and if I accept this terror It it's you know, probably gonna benefit me overall based on my experience So that makes sense. Yeah, it does make sense. I see where you're getting at. So the concern there would be that The the attempt to inject humor can become its own Like a tool a compulsive tool or a safety behavior, right? I call I have to make jokes to knock this down to be okay Yeah, and just that you never get to the place of recognizing the Or having that space from From the anxiety if you're not able to stop doing the compulsions Just independent of the humor. You're not going to understand that that Space between oh, right. I've been through this before and I know what this is like and if I don't do anything it's scary And I'm likely to have more objectivity in the future and then you can be like, right. Okay. Well tomorrow me is probably In my my reserves I know that tomorrow me has a little bit more objectivity and then can inject the sort of humor into it a little bit more easily However, I think your point is really well taken and we were kind of touching on that before the episode So I'm gonna I'm now put it on you in a go aggressive kind of a way Talk to us about how how humor can become a compulsion or a safety behavior drew I think you could become a bit of a safety behavior Well, it can become a couple of other things it could be The best disguise ever for what I like to call covert reassurance seeking, you know now I always like to say like assurance is okay. We're allowed to learn and we're allowed to ask questions That's okay. Not everything is is bad reassurance, but when you've already heard the answer 16 times and you want the 19 That's where the problem is But so humor often gets used as a gloss or cloak around that reassurance seeking So i'm gonna make a funny joke I I see no humor in the way i'm feeling right now, but I will make a joke to you my friend Hey, lauren, let me tell you this funny thing about what my body's doing right now Oh my gosh, I did this in a meeting the other day. Actually I did I like i'm just gonna close straight up call myself out Uh, sorry, I feel like I interrupted your oh, no, no. This is exactly what we're talking about bring it So I I was talking with a colleague and I said something that I realized in the aftermath could have been interpreted as somehow unkind or insensitive for or as a a criticism of her and I found myself Sort of reading her facial expressions and trying to determine right compulsively as we do Okay, sometimes from time to time. Oh, what is she thinking as if I could actually determine? But I I found myself at a certain point going Oh, I'm just gonna I'm I'm gonna do my best to accept uncertainty right now that so and so is not Upset with me and it was in a so it was in a joking manner completely and then she laughed and I was like see I'm good that's I'm gonna make a joke to get what I want. So yes when you're in that scary situation and you're feeling like I want to ask somebody about this or I I need to be told it's okay But you know, you're not supposed to making a joke about it, huh? My my stupid heart is doing flips again, huh lol like I see it in my face People someone were on look I'm not picking on people. I did it too. We all do it. But yeah, they'll roll in and they'll just make a statement having a lot of you know Palpitations, you know hate those stupid heart lol okay, well So to me humor can become safety behavior in that form like I'm gonna cloak my reassurance seeking in a joke And can I I mean look? I don't know how old everybody is watching but I was doing this when Reagan was president. So my anxiety is calling out your anxiety on this bullshit. I did all of those Well, I know I know exactly why because I did all of them I was doing them before a lot of you guys were born sadly, but like okay that that's a thing That's part of how humor can become a safety behavior Yeah in one way. Yeah Absolutely Yeah, yeah, also that or sometimes it becomes A frustrating attempt at a safety behavior that doesn't work Like oh, I'm just gonna start cracking jokes and huh try and make myself laugh Which we know we can't do can't demand that to feel something that is funny So I seem to get really frustrated when humor is their default coping mechanism and it doesn't work in the face of this thing Sometimes a little like discouraged. I'm like, it's not working Yeah, yeah, that's a thing Well, and it's an indicator that you're using it compulsively because if if you find yourself trying to Do something and then it re triggers you If you're trying to get that Which compulsion safety behavior so often do re trigger us, which is one of the major issues with them, frankly I mean, you're gonna make it worse potentially um But I think the other thing That we were talking about before we started is that sometimes you can try to laugh off your anxiety as a a means Of discrediting it Yes Yeah, I'm so sure that that you know that doorknob has germs on it. Good point brain, right? Which Look, I don't even think that that's inherently a bad way To react. I think if you have a balance in your recovery practice of of recognizing that I do at The bottom of it have to accept the uncertainty That that's it's not a problem However, if that's your main go-to and you're trying to use it to convince yourself That your anxiety is full of it and that the bad thing isn't going to happen We've lost the thread. I think I think so too and that's the difference between you don't use it as a Convincing or a reassurance again. I hate to keep using the word reassurance, but when you're unsure trying to use you Humor to knock down that discomfort probably isn't a good move But as that again that diffusion tool like oh, I'm terrified right now because I'm pretty sure this doorknob is contaminated but I know Crazy brain you I know you're trying to suck me in and I'm calling you out and I'm not going to engage with that But I am terrified Exactly. I am scared, but okay. I'm going to call you out for being like a jerk a jerk brain You know, it's not okay. I'm being playful with it in in In the service of that and maybe talking about the humor part This is where it's funny that you brought up diffusion earlier because diffusion techniques I think can be really great for this and like singing a little song like While you're terrified, right? So totally accepting that you're the fear is pumping through your veins. It's like I am gonna touch this doorknob And it is gonna give me a disease, right? Like at least You're like you're dancing to it 80s disco acts a little bit. I forgot. See it's happening. It's happening So, you know, but there's there's at least like, okay. Well because we're riding this feeling and at least I might as well just Try and play while I'm at it because otherwise it's just gonna be miserable In that respect, especially in your specialty where you're trying to take the bite out of those thoughts and those discussions You would think that being able to do that in it at least an attempt at a humorous way Has to start to try to take the bite out of that. I'm gonna sing a song about my contamination And it often does I think it's all down to your That's the way that I'm looking for Your intention Yeah And if you're intending it to talk yourself out of it, then that's a problem But if if you're intending it to just recognize that the thought's happening and that you're uncertain and and trying to Ride the wave with a little bit of Yeah Yeah, I get that. It's such a funny line. So much of this is The fine line between what's useful and what's not and what's useful on tuesday might be counterproductive on wednesday But then useful again on thursday, so It's you have to be contextually aware and sometimes we make mistakes and that's okay. We'll blow it two times Yeah, I think another cool thing about humor and recovery is it does foster that sense Look, nobody wants to feel alone and I mean god knows instant therapy is all about making sure you're not alone We know this so Yeah, like you're not alone. We get it. There's millions of us. We get it But everybody wants to feel like they're the only one and humor is a good common threat So when I tell the silly orange juice story people crack up, but they also Oh my god, I thought I was the only one that did that and then people can come together and understand like, okay I'm not I'm not really broken. So that's always nice Yes, we also see that pop-up around. You know, what about bop one of my favorite movies? Yes Anybody watching us right now loves what about bop? I gotta find a way to get permission to stream that to like everybody one day We'll watch together. I know we should that's what I would be in for that and like a real-time watch session I don't know who owns it, but maybe I'll make a note about that. Maybe I'll reach out It's an educational thing We have a community full of people dealing with anxiety disorders that love what about but what about bop Can we stream at once? Totally Maybe they'll give us the okay, we'll see but I that humor could be a really bonding Tool a tool as people bond and understand they're part of a community and they're not alone and other people actually share their struggles So that's a good thing about humor. I think if you can indulge in it a little bit absolutely, I think that I've found that humor is easier to access when you've got other people that you're connected to who understand Really, but that's sometimes it's easier if you're talking to a friend to have a laugh than it is if you're just sitting alone in the experience and i'm not talking about as a tool to reassure yourself excessively but as a you know as as just a It's the common humanity piece, right? There's so much comfort in just to your point knowing that you're not alone And this is you're not the only person to ever experience this thing And maybe sharing the experience in a humorous way is certainly a lot more accessible Maybe safer less threatening than look we're talking about, you know, I I went to the er again for the 16th time in the year I'm embarrassed. I'm ashamed But if I talk about it with the community humorously it makes it's a softens blow a little bit Like i'm wrapped by thoughts of harming my my children Nobody wants to talk about that that's a terrible topic, but if there's some humor possibly woven in it becomes a softer Conversation, maybe Actually, it's so funny. Uh, and I don't know if this was his content or somebody else's but I saw a post From anxiety josh, uh, just today. Oh, yeah, that guy that guy your buddy So he was saying something about you know, those the captures the the things that you have to do to prove You're not a robot It's so good because he he basically Somebody said do you overthink things right? So the meme is do you overthink things me? And there's a picture of one of the captures and is there is there a streetlight in this in this square? It's like this much of the And anyone who's anxious has been there, right? Like oh, gosh is that act that what if you know, it's it's perfect So having the ability to laugh and to see oh, wow. Yeah, I really do take things to an extreme I think it just supports mindfulness ultimately the ability to really witness it without judgment Um and and with a heaping dose of self-compassion for sure. Yeah, that's true I'm sure you get this too. I know because the content you put out is outstanding How many times has somebody replied in your comment section? I feel personally attacked by this Yes And that's why you know for somebody like like lauren for somebody like me when you say I feel personally attacked or get out of my head He's freaking me out And we know we did it right. So yes, totally becomes a great thing People can express that that way truly I also like when you one of the things that I like is using Humor in exposure. So if there's a content area that is anxiety provoking to you and There's some sort of a stand-up special about it that tends to bring up your anxiety That's a great exposure because there you are having both of those experiences simultaneously That's the same time So do you think though because I have had people who try to use Specifically stand-up sometimes or funny movies like oh if I'm really anxious. I'll put a funny movie on but they're trying to Force themselves into that jovial kind of thing with the movie and that doesn't work out so well But you're using it as an actual exposure tool. Yeah It could go away like no, no, no, no, let's listen to this guy tell jokes about this for 20 minutes Yeah, exactly I'm trying to think because I did not watch it and I can't remember who special it was But somebody recently did a stand-up comedy special that talked about michael jackson Wait and the the sort of allegations of of child abuse And who yeah, do you know who it was? I can't remember No, but i'm sure it's been talked about often by comedians, but I could see where that would be a real triggering thing Very truly I had I had clients come to me and say this is really triggering. And so we ended up turning it around and be like, okay Well, let's watch it This is great. Um, and I I do think it's not I think that if you're trying to to cultivate anxiety in order to or cultivate anxiety cultivate laughter In order to mask anxiety and train in order to try and like push that out That's a problem. If you're saying, okay, I'm feeling anxious. I'd also like to cultivate this other experience to have while I'm feeling anxious That's great because you're under no obligation to Exclusively feel anxious for the duration of your anxiety. In fact, quite the contrary. That's probably going to keep you stuck Yeah, true. That's that even if thing even if I am anxious I can watch this I can read this book I can have this conversation even if even while Yeah, that's a good idea. I never really thought about that using stand-up or or movies or anything like that that has that subject But I've seen people do that in my community for sure. Like, oh, I'm really triggered by such and such. I'm watching reruns of er Yeah, people tell things I would go and watch, you know, hospital medical dramas and stuff And it's really hard for them, but they do it and it helps them. So yeah, why wouldn't a stand-up special? That makes good sense Yeah, no, it's a good way to shake it up. Let's wrap it up with a I think an important thing because we know that This is a big issue for so many people in recovery that they come into the process Full of negative self-belief and self-doubt and a poor self-image and a lot of You know harsh judgment about themselves When does humor become we can all laugh at like, oh, I can't even believe I was afraid of that You know, I'll laugh at my orange juice thing. I can't believe that I was actually afraid of blah blah blah I was on I was on someone else's podcast Jen Kirkman's podcast and she is the I was jumping up and down She's second person ever said this to me. She had the fear and she talks about this openly It's in her podcast. She was afraid that gravity would stop working. That was her obsession Right like how terrifying is that? She was that's a second human being I've ever heard with that particular fear And so we got talking about it, but she laughs about it, you know, at the time not so much when does that go into self-deprecating and And really harsh self-judgment because I've seen that the humor almost gets too far Yeah, I laugh at the fear, but now I'm actually laughing at myself and there's a difference Yeah That's such a good question. I don't know that I have an answer for it Answer more than observation probably Yeah, no, but it's so important I think maybe the answer to some extent is in that making sure that the self-compassion is there that it's not It's that it it's in the intent again. It's in the flavor of it and if you're using it as a whip to lash yourself versus If you're recognizing like wow life is funny I think The the thing is one of the the beautiful things about humor is that it's all about I don't know taking the whole Experience that we're a part of this whole experiment of life that we're in a little less seriously And if we can use it in that way Then it softens the whole thing and it's not about oh, we're bad. It's about like this whole thing is kind of a joke Bizarre weird And and there's so much to laugh at versus What's wrong with what's wrong with me for being so ridiculous like What's your deal? Yo, it's less sarcasm and less Uh Yeah, I don't know pointed and it's it's hard. It is a hard thing to oh last time I said that we got remixed We did in the best way we got completely remixed and it was hilarious. Um So I I think there's that fine line and just maybe being aware of it There's no answer here, of course like in many instances don't answer just being aware that like well When are you going over the line where now you're actually Making fun of yourself as opposed to let me see the humor in what I thought As opposed to let me make fun of myself by making jokes about who I am Yeah, or claring that thought to mean i'm broken So let me make fun of being broken and I've seen that and it's it's heartbreaking So sometimes the humor gets used as a weapon It's so true and and I do think that that mindfulness piece of just taking a step back and Witnessing yourself instead of making it about you as a person I know that and I'll share this because as we round this out, but I I laugh now at some of my obsessions in particular My obsessions around relapse with alcoholism, right because I spent two years of my life trying to Trying to figure out whether or not I'd relapse by eating a piece of tiramisu Right like this was my life and this is my reality and Honestly, it is it's it's sort of like whoa I really I really took that and went with it, you know, and that is humorous to me now and I think It was to your point earlier wasn't humorous to me at the time but I can really and and that injecting that humor into my Reflection on that in this very not it was horrifying and terrifying and I have so much Like respect for myself in trying to navigate that and if I can look back and inject a little humor into that moment I'm more able to inject humor into these present moments Where it might be more challenging Yeah, which is great and then you can look back at the process that you went through as somewhat ridiculous in humorous Not that you were ridiculous That's that's the difference right there Totally just nailed it. That's that's the the difference is the process is funny Not I'm funny or I'm a joke or I'm Stupid Which are some of the same principles you find with with guilt or regret you can regret what you did Without actually passing judgment about who you are. So this this all different discussion, but anyway See we were worried maybe next time. Maybe next time. That's what we're going to talk about We're 20 minutes without even banning eyelash So I'm very self-aware of the fact that I don't feel I was very funny during this episode and I'm gonna accept that discomfort of like, oh, wow, this is about humor and people may be expected to laugh more Uh, but you know, whatever. It's fine. Yeah, sometimes it's you just some days you're meta and some days you're not today We're not that's okay. That happens. That's right. I like it All right, folks. Thanks for coming by as always always good to have you We'll do it again next month. We seem to do these every month We're gonna be really good at that. So if you are not aware of who lauren is are following her then It's right on the screen follow on instagram at the obsessive mind So, yeah, that's how you get to lauren and then if you'll pull yours up You're sure you got all the tools remember Follow drew because he's awesome the dot anxious dot truth That's very serious. There's lots of periods in there the period anxious Because there's a ready somebody that has periods and that guy got really popular in the last two years Really? Yeah, it's he has it's an anxiety account of some kind So if you guys want to go follow the anxious truth with that period, he'll wonder why but he's gotten Accident, yeah I'm sure he's a good guy. So go follow him. Anyway, thanks for coming by We'll see you guys again next month and if you have comments or questions Send them out. Let us know what else you want to talk about and we'll do that and we'll see you next time Thanks guys later. Let's end the recording