 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Norr. Today, my guest is Elliot Oreskovich, Executive Co-Director of United States eSports Association. Our topic is US eSports Association, pioneering eSports development in the US. So, Elliot, it's great to have you here. No, it's great to be on. All right. So, it was wonderful meeting you at eSports Next in Chicago. And I actually wasn't aware of your association. So, tell us about it. Yeah. So, as we all now know, the United States eSports Association founded in 2018, but things really started kicking off in 2020. Originally, the organization was founded to do like AAU style amateur development since 2018. That was not a thing. I mean, it still isn't really a thing now, if we're being honest. Though there are local examples that do exist. Around 2021, 2022, we started to move away from that. And then now we're just focused on charitable stuff that no one else really wants to do, which I'm sure we'll talk about. All right. Fantastic. So, how would you describe the association's role and influence in eSports? Yeah. I mean, so this gets into the like programmatic stuff right now. So, right now, our two main like priority areas are ecological sustainability and then national security more broadly, though climate change is now a national security concern. On the ecological sustainability side, we are involved in the sports for climate action framework. And we're the only, I think we're still the only eSports organization on the race to zero. Both of those are coordinated by the UN framework convention on climate change secretariat. So just the people that do climate change stuff at the UN level. Within the U.S., sort of the focus there is on getting first, getting people to start contributing towards national estimates of eSports, what's called scope to emissions. So, like, how much energy are you using? And then because of that, what is the cost to the, in this case, to the climate through primarily carbon dioxide since a little harder to do all the other gases. But estimates are estimates. So it's just a matter of having a formula to do it and getting ours. And then on the national security side, sort of the focus is on starting the question or starting the conversation and then asking the questions that need to be asked. The United States has not played as significant of a role in global eSports development as you probably would have predicted 20, 30 years ago, just from where we were at in general. And then also within the game development space. And just because it's a big economy, you'd imagine that we'd have some sort of sizable influence. Again, that's not been the case. And then as the economy has struggled after the pandemic, even during the pandemic, even domestic development is kind of difficult. And because of that, then we have to balance the two issues of first, how are we going to stack up globally? And then more importantly, how are we going to do things at home? So those two things, you know, but again, programmatic for the one conversation starting for the other. You know, it's sort of, you know, going back to the climate change issue and efforts to be carbon neutral. You know, it's kind of interesting to me on the one hand that eSports is electronic, meaning that you're using electricity. You're using a lot of energy, like in order to have events, in order to just play, you have to have energy internet. So it seems to me that there is an impact. On the other hand, eSports is, by nature, it can be done remotely. So there's arguably less travel than there would be for other sports. How does all that weigh out and how do you approach this issue in light of those? Yeah. I mean, honestly, so that makes it even more difficult. Because when they're having the conversation and they, I mean, the group of people, you know, globally that are doing this, when you're having this kind of a conversation with the traditional sports federations and then like the private companies that actually do all of the real work, it's a lot easier to say, okay, we have four events per year. Those events are the only time that we are really responsible for sizable emissions. Therefore, we focus all of our efforts on, you know, like sustainable procurement or dealing with fan travel and making sure that that's not going to be too much of an issue, diverting fans away, if that's going to be a problem. Because eSports doesn't need that in order to function reasonably well, obviously, it's not perfect. I would even argue at times it's not good. Because it doesn't require that, we now have to deal with the reality of, okay, well, there isn't really a template for what you do with an industry that works that way, except for tech. But it's not really tech. Obviously, it intersects, but there are still sports influences. And it turns out, dealing with just scope to emissions within an industry where we don't have any meaningful coordination, collaboration is, if it exists, it's not very mature, and it needs to become that. But if it doesn't exist, which is the case for the larger game developers and IP holders, it makes it very difficult to persuade tournament organizers who are doing the in-person events, the limited ones, that this is something they should focus on. And then the final step to that is, even when we have those eSports events that are in-person in the US, obviously the bigger ones, those are still held at traditional stadiums. We don't have the kind of infrastructure to support large scale eSports or dedicated eSports venues across the country, at least like we can for traditional sports. So if the traditional sports industry isn't going to do their part for the in-person and the venue stuff, which they don't do, progress is made, but it's not enough. We run into that barrier, plus obviously the scope to stuff. But it all just comes down to the fact that it's decentralized, and there isn't a lot of collaboration and coordination, which makes all of this estimates. And it's just a matter of how good is the estimate going to be, and how much hand-waving are we going to have to do to guess how significant the United States contributions are? Sure. And moving on to another question, and this is something that has been a big deal in the eSports arena for quite a while. And that is, what ways does your association support or regulate competition within eSports? Yeah. So from very early on, because of the name, and we used to be involved in a global eSports federation for two years. So as we were going out and having conversations with people in the amateur community, which is where we all kind of came from, collegiate as well, there was always the issue of not wanting to be seen as a governing body, quote unquote, because at the time, and this was 2020, 2021, that was still a bad word in the US for whatever reason. Now I think people are starting to get over that. And there are a lot of colleges that are more than happy to collaborate and to send their players to GEF and IESF events. But again, at the time that was an issue for us. So we made the conscious decision just so that we had something that was strategically viable, long term for us, to move away from that as a dedicated like programmatic focus. So now all the competition stuff that we do is with primarily the Amateur eSports Association, which is another 501C3 in the US, they do basically AAU stuff. So what the USDA was originally founded to do, they've done it, and they do it successfully. So they have the estimate, it varies by the time of year, but it's like between 40 and 60 in-person venues that they work with. Some are independent, some are franchised. And through them, they make all of the competition happen. So with the relationship that we have with that organization, well one, we're able to start doing in a meaningful way the ecological sustainability programming. And because they have a sizable chunk of a specific demographic, and of course the in-person part, we're able to make that happen. And then long term move towards voluntarily getting people to start to standardize things. And then that obviously is going to have competition consequences. If we're going to say, hey, you need to tone down how long these computers are on all day, especially if they're not being used, etc. We are still like, again, we don't want to be seen as a sanctioning body or governing body because that doesn't really need to be needed. So over time, the goal is to soft introduce that sort of thing with a very cooperative and voluntary ultimately focus. So that's kind of where we are with that. It is still a core part of what the long-term version of the USA needs to be. But time exists, unfortunately. So my background is with USA Triathlon. So I have a lot of experience in different rules in a national governing body of sport. So one of the rules of that traditional sport governing body is to address issues of doping. And I know computer doping and there's different ways that people can cheat in eSports. Are you doing anything to address those kind of issues? So the level of competition that we're tangential to isn't where doping would be like addressed normally. So we're talking, I don't know, nine, maybe not nine, I think 12 to 13 and then 15. It's like 12 to 15 year olds is what the AIA tends to work with. And then we do have a relationship with the NECC and that's college. And they already all follow NCAA or NAIA rules just because they have to. I don't even think that'd be something we try to touch because none of us are competent in doing that. I'm aware it's a thing that should probably be addressed long term, but especially trying to do it within an eSports context, it's like, okay, well, what are we really targeting here and why? And is this like an adequate use of resources and should this be the focus or should we be focusing on other forms of cheating that are more prevalent? And then betting's influence, I would say, would be another area. But I'm not the person for that. And I'm sure that when those things come to light as being problems, then those things would be potentially addressed. But until they are problems that you're seeing that are being raised and brought to your attention, then maybe it isn't so important. But do you think that U.S. eSports Association will ultimately be part of the U.S. Olympic committee, like traditional sports governing bodies are? So we actually, and this goes back to when we were in the GF, as we were leaving, we were sort of maturing and revisiting our bylaws. And we, in order to have a hard statement that we are not trying to do the governing role, we actually baked it into our governing documents that we're not supposed to be even asking for that kind of participation or recognition. So unless there was a governance level change in perception about what the USDA should be doing and what the role is, I'd say no. And this coincides just with a larger focus of moving away from competition, per se, to doing the charitable stuff surrounding it. Obviously, in the context of the U.S. OPC, those overlap. But where we are right now with eSports, they don't, unfortunately. So we chose to focus on the one and then with partners do the other. So what is your background that led you to be in this position? Yeah. So I graduated with a BBA in marketing from Cleveland State. I'm in Cleveland. So I just went to the local university. I graduated with a BBA in 2020. And I just graduated with an MBA somewhere along the line. I did a year of master's level econ for whatever reason. I got halfway through it. I did all of the hard math. And then I was like, yeah, I don't want to do that ever again. And the university was paying for it. So I just said, whatever, we'll do something else. Moving out of my undergrad, I was looking for something to do that would eventually transition into a career. At that time, I was just doing student employment with specifically working at the Writing Center. So undergrad all the way through professor level writing. It was very good at it, but that's not a sustainable career. Unfortunately, it should be. It'd be cool if it were. I came across the USDA just because I was looking for an organization that was in eSports. And it was doing something interesting, not initially as a career avenue. But as a side thing that I was doing with a buddy, we were actually organizing competitions in the local or not in the local, but at the amateur level for Rainbow Six Siege. And we were always looking to have a more holistic version of competition. And we tried to talk to the IESF at the time. And that wasn't a conversation that was being had. So the the USCF had or the not the USCF, the USDA had good enough SEO at the time that it came up in a Google search. I saw that they were taking interns. I was like, all right, I'll do this for a summer and then go do something more interesting. And then it turns out that what was more interesting was just running it long term. So got into it completely by accident. I didn't even get into eSports, you know, intentionally. A buddy called me up one day. He was doing an entrepreneurship competition for his college. And he's like, hey, I need you to just make up some finances. I'm like, okay, sure. Like that's easy enough to do. And what it was for was for a local eSports lounge. That that was 2018. So things just kind of snowballed accidentally. And then now, you know, I'm here advocating for things. Right. And then you started, your organization was formed fairly close before the pandemic. And so how did the COVID-19 pandemic impact your organization? I mean, I'm not, I'm still not entirely sure. I'm the everything that we did to grow it initially was done during the pandemic. And then as we were coming out of the pandemic, that's really when like we started to have the specific focus we do now. So it was a lot of trial and error. Luckily, we had the opportunity to do things that weren't going to work long term. And because of that, now we have something that I'm at least comfortable putting time and effort into. And I think the rest of the organization agrees. I think one of the other things that did help, if anything, from growing the organization during the pandemic was that that was also when a lot of other organizations were doing the same thing. And being on the nonprofit side of it, that was and remains a small subset of people who are doing eSports across the country. So, you know, there's a lot of people you just know, because they were very accessible, you know, two, three, four years ago. And then now it's a little more intimidating, I would imagine, to try to reach out. But at the time, it was like, Yeah, just email them or Discord, you know, talk on Discord, because that's what everyone's doing. You know, and as the industry professionalizes, I'm sure that won't remain a thing. But I think that was probably the most profound impact. And luckily, it was positive. Sure. So is the USDA doing anything regarding diversity and inclusion? So it's fantastic, you bring that up. We, way back when we did try to do DI specific DI programming, but again, that was when we were totally competition focused. So now that we're not doing that, that was not in the initial sort of roll out of things. Moving it towards the end of this year, we want to get we want to bring on at least one intern paid. Luckily, we have the opportunity to do that now, which I'm happy with, to start doing a, I can't say the name because we haven't started publishing it yet, but basically to do DI stuff, focusing on the LGBTQ community within eSports. Obviously, there are organizations that do it, you know, like that that's what the organization does. But mixing it with the other work that we do, again, with the partners that we have, is kind of the focus. So TLDR, yes, we just haven't announced it. So unfortunately, I don't have specifics. And I don't want to give away our marketing. So you noted that you're a nonprofit. Are there entities that are members of your association, or how do you raise money to operate? That's a wonderful question. We do not have members. That was also one of the big shifts originally that we did have a membership component. And then I think probably close to 100% of our funding right now is through a grant with the US Department of Homeland Security under their targeted violence and terrorism prevention program, which for that, we are developing and then implementing a national eSports Honor Society in partnership with NECC, the National eSports Collegiate Conference. So upskilling colleges to have more holistic programming, specifically targeting media and information literacy, professional development, community and civic engagement, and then peer and intergenerational mentoring. So you don't have to, you know, as a college who probably got into eSports because you saw it as a way to make money, whether directly or indirectly, you don't have to be worrying about how you're going to offer like a sustainable holistic program long-term. That is kind of what the point of that program is, and luckily the DHS agreed that that was a thing that would advance their grant goals. So I previously mentioned my experience with USA Triathlon, and one of the ways that they operate is that if a race wants to be a USAT certified race, they essentially, what they get out of it by paying the fee is they get insurance. And so it's kind of, I almost call it an insurance program. Have you ever thought of doing something where you're providing the benefit of insurance to events through certification? I mean, that's not the insurance part specifically, but we have, I mean, right now, we're talking with the AEA about what that would look like, you know, to roll out as a larger, hey, let's bring everyone together kind of program, especially since they've done it successfully with dedicated in-person venues. It's not something I think we would do right now. And then again, for like the insurance part, we're not competent in doing that. So we would need to find people, you know, who one, that we trust, and then two are competent to do it. But I think that just kind of depends on a lot of other factors that we're not even like concerned with primarily. So I'd say if it comes up as an opportunity that we can like meaningfully contribute to, cool. But I don't think it would be something that we would pump a lot of time and effort into. Yeah, mainly again, because that's well beyond what anybody in the organization is competent doing. You know, I think if there are losses or issues that make insurance a bigger deal for the sport, I think that that could occur. Like cyber attacks could ultimately mean that there's a need for cyber insurance and that, you know, and who would provide that and would an association provide it. Those kind of things I could see would, you know, might trigger that. But, you know, I can see where that isn't a thing right now. So what do you see? Oh, go ahead. Well, so I mean, it is also like an interesting, totally unrelated, and I'm not a financial person. But it is an interesting question of what eSports insurance would even mean. Or what that would be, you know, what would meaningfully actually do something in this context that's like comprehensive enough to entice organizations to want to participate to then benefit from. You know, within the traditional sports context, I think it's a little more clear, which is why it exists. And because it is like a real everyday concern. But within eSports, it's like, what are you going to do? Combine five, six, seven different packages together and then somehow try to sell that like at an affordable rate. Again, I'm not an insurance person. So I don't know. But I would imagine just from having to deal with insurance personally and then, you know, for organizations that that's already complex enough on its own. So yeah, I mean, I'm sure there are people who know insurance that would have a better answer. But it's not something that I see the finance industry or the finance sector touching. And, you know, eSports organizations, I mean, most I don't think are specifically calling for it. Do you need insurance? In my amateur opinion, 100% insurance is probably a good thing. Is it affordable for most people? Absolutely not. Which would be another barrier, which to the earlier point, having an organizational membership benefit where you're not paying the entire actual cost of it would be beneficial. But all of those other issues that we're not competent to answer, and I'm not also competent to answer, kind of make that a large open question. So how can viewers find your organization? What's your tell us about that? Yeah. So we do, like all of our stuff is on the website. So esportsus.org. The Twitter is also relatively active at official underscore us a I'd say the website is the most comprehensive version of public facing stuff. Thank you, Elliot. I really appreciate it. Great job today. Yeah. That's been great to talk with you. All right. So thank you to our viewers for joining us today. Join us in two weeks. My guest will be Noel, Prisio Naylor, Jennifer Arons, and Peter Dubro of Stockton University. See you then.