 Hi, thanks for being here welcome back to another open-source on-ramp talk So these series of talks are aimed at people who are new to the industry trying to find out what's going on where stuff fits in this case the talk is about open-source and What that should really mean to you as it says competitive advantage. So without further ado, I'm gonna turn you over to Brendan Great. Thanks, Tim. I Also will not be singing Which is to you for your benefit If you saw my colleagues keynote earlier, I also don't have music and lighting, but that's okay Right so thanks so much for coming. I was actually talking to another colleague just a few minutes ago, and I realized This is the first in-person talk. I've given since February of 2020 Which was my first talk in my current role and And the last one that I did in person. So it's really great to be back in person And see all of you here. So thanks for coming and like Tim said, I want to talk a little bit about The competitive advantage that open-source can give people right I think that's an important thing Tim was talking about how we want to you know learn and for folks that are new to the industry or maybe new to open-source You know what that really means and I want to kind of put it in context And I think I think the context But I like to think about you hear a lot of folks talk about a software as a software factory, right? You especially especially in government, you know, they like things that are industrial and factory-based But I think it's a decent metaphor And when we're thinking about this factory metaphor, I think a lot of times where we go in our head is Traditional like factory things right the tools that we have in the factory the folks that are working in the factory to put parts together and Okay, the parts are definitely part of it, too It's the process that something goes through from being, you know, raw materials to something That's a value-added good that we can go and sell to customers, right? That's the kind of typical factory mentality and You know something else we might think of especially in the US if you if you grew up in the US Definitely learned about is like Henry Ford in the assembly line, right? So you hear folks talk about how you know towards the end of the industrial revolution when Ford Didn't invent the automobile and didn't invent the assembly line But perfected the assembly line to you know, have it be this thing where He could very efficiently produce The same car all the time at the same quality and and do it in a way where he had folks Specializing in what they were doing right again a lot of the industrial revolution up into that point was also about you know people having specialized skills and being able to focus on a specialty and that was kind of the revolutionary part of You know how Ford really looked at This assembly line process, you know have someone specialized and things come to them and they do their specialized task And then it moves on And that was really effective right again you could get High production at a low cost out of that you get you know the model T in the model a car It only came in black right you said Ford famously said that you can have my car in any color you want as long as it's black But it was super efficient But then later right if we go if we fast-forward a little bit When other car makers entered the car market, especially when Toyota Came from Japan and entered the American car market. It was a lot different right Toyota looked a lot different than Ford And in fact, you know, I said if you grow up in the US today, you might learn about the assembly line of Ford That's probably the elementary level right if you go to business school You probably learn about the Toyota production system right you hear people talk about that all the time and just in time inventory and a lot of other Evolutionary things the Toyota did and so what did Toyota do that was so vastly different than what Ford was able to do? That led them to become the number one car Manufacturing the world when Ford and the other American car makers had such such kind of a head start Well, they didn't just think about those tools inside the factory and those people that are specializing in things inside the factory That was a revolution. We talked about Ford bringing us But they also thought about All of the things that came before that right the raw materials weren't just raw materials to them There was a whole supply chain ahead of them Before the raw materials got to the factory that Toyota became masters of right and we've seen throughout history supply chains really be a critical part of Mastering the thing that you're trying to do whether it's a war or or building a car and And so that's how Toyota really was able to Make another step change in how people looked at manufacturing by by not only looking at what was inside of their own factory like Ford did but also looking at how can they Influence and work on the efficiency and the effectiveness of their suppliers that are bringing them raw materials, right? And so famously not only do they have these fantastic relationships where they're able to Kind of mold their suppliers to what Toyota needs. They also if you talk to their suppliers All right, if someone's an auto parts supplier They love working with Toyota more than any other company because of this this focus on suppliers isn't just It's not just about them, right? It's about the common good that their suppliers and them can come can come together and realize by working closer than just kind of a consumer supplier relationship And so that's that's how Toyota really wins And so that's the context I kind of want to set for today again as as Tim mentioned My name is Brendan O'Leary and I was actually just running a colleague of mine through my history I've been at GitLab since 2017 and I've had a couple different roles there. I spent time in our starting a professional services organization when we didn't have one because we were small tiny little company I Spent time running product for our verify stage, which is You know CIC well CI and our GitLab runner and a lot of things like that And then as I mentioned at the beginning of the talk I in January of 2020 Finally Priyanka Sharma who's actually now the general manager of the CNCF She was working at GitLab at the time and she had been trying to convince me to come be an evangelist and I I'd kind of been doing that part-time ever since I'd been at GitLab But the thing is when you're 150 people like everyone's a part-time everything But when you're 1500 people no one could be a part-time anything So I had to kind of make a decision and I was worried about too much travel because I've got four small kids at home Some travel is great, but too much travel Some travel is just right But too much travel is is too hard on the family and she said oh, no, we know we're GitLab We're all remote. We're gonna do remote evangelism. Well, and this was in like December 2019 And so then I start in February of 2020 and I gave my last in-person talk At the venue was okay. I guess it was in Hawaii It's kind of like oh, hey now I'm doing this thing I'm gonna go in conferences and speak and then a little did I know that Priyanka was a little bit more Aware of where we were going than anybody really at the time even you know, she didn't know what she was predicting So anyway, really happy to get to talk to you And so I want to kind of dig into you know, how this context really applies in open source and I think The next three words are one that you've seen probably too many times this week But we have to bring them up. Okay, it's software supply chain, right? And I'm not gonna talk to you about software supply chain security. I promise There's plenty of fantastic folks that know more about that I even have a talk about it, but this isn't that talk So we're not gonna talk about software supply chain security, but I do want to talk about it in context Because again the context of this The situation we're in You know software supply chain security being such a critical thing which it is right? We heard about that in all Probably every keynote right even like at the first day I can't remember which two it was but someone said oh the person before me gave 15 minutes of my talk because it was about supply chain security right and they skipped over that part But as much as that's important and I don't want to take away from that. I think if you take a step back It's it's more of a symptom Then then an original problem and I think it's a symptom of of a few things And so I hope to convince you in this talk that it's a symptom And that there's more to be done than just thinking about supply chain security And I also hope to convince you like I said of the business value or the competitive advantage that can come From contributing to open source now I'm well aware that in this audience. I'm probably like this is a choir and I'm now preaching to it, right? So I'm also going to spend some time Again laying this found work for the foundation of the situation we're in So that you can go back to your leadership and lay the same found foundation hopefully right for them and have some actual things at the end that individual contributors to do can do to influence within their own organizations and also that leaders can do if they have in a leadership position to help influence this so I'm aware some of it's preaching to the crowd But I think hopefully you'll get something out of you know this foundation that we can lay about this again bigger picture than even just software supply chain security and I Think that the reason we're in that situation and the reason that is such a critical thing is What we've talked about again a lot to this week about how critical open-source software has become in the world right so famously Well semi famously Mark Andries and I think it was about 12 or 14 years ago now So that software was eating the world right this is in the early days of like sass really becoming a huge deal in business and That being the way that now we're going to deliver software and consume software right sales force being the like pre-eminent example of that But I think the situation we're in now is software has eaten the world like 14 years later He I think you know I think Andrew Mark Andries and was right and he's right a lot so okay But I think now open-source software is eating the world I think the same kind of transition that we saw from Proprietary boxed or delivered as you know in on a CD software transition to a sass delivery model of software We're seeing another step change In the way that the world produces and consumes software And that's and that's that's open-source and because of that Situation you know or organizations are required to have open-source in order to compete right a lot of us are here Representing large organizations or small organizations that have sent us here because they understand at least there is some value here right there's some part of Excuse me open-source That's required for us to stay competitive in the current environment and And and I think because of that right Mark Andreessen was making that prediction or that statement about software years ago as part of the overall thesis of Software is a thing you need to focus on right and I think again That's now a foregone conclusion if it wasn't already before the pandemic During the pandemic we've seen companies increase investment in digital transformation increased investment in software even when you know the economy is kind of a little bit Unpredictable because it's an unpredictable world and and that's because those who are best leveraged software are going to win And I think in a world where open-source is eating the world Those who are able to best leverage open-source software are going to be the ones who win in their respective industry regardless of what it is But that doesn't come without complication right so It's it's complicated to begin with but I think there's three places to look at you know What makes that hard? Why is that not something that just naturally happens again? Many of us maybe think Brendan I'm with you it makes sense But we're not doing it. Why are we not why are we not seeing? You know why is that not an easy thing to convince? My CFO of or or somebody in leadership your business leadership of I think there's three sets of complications I want to talk about here first for organizations then for the projects themselves and then for individual contributors to those projects and So for for organizations You know they have to be open to open source again I think a lot have just gotten over the paradigm of oh We're gonna run our software in the cloud We're not gonna have everything beyond premise, but they just kind of got adapted to that maybe right We're gonna not necessarily own every piece of software. We might have some that's sass and then open source is another again step change for them to say you know how open to open source are we and again, even in organizations who Acknowledge this as something that needs to happen. It's not always easy like I was speaking I've spoken with people here today that or this week that work at large organizations who again employ them in Open-source fields right and send them to conferences about open source but they still have a lot of struggle in you know How do I convince leadership that this is the right thing to do or that we need to spend more time on this or that We need to devote engineering time to open source and I think that's because It's a new step change and I also think it's because Bluntly because of the kind of what is the contribution to revenue right if you're an organization that's that's focused on You know revenue as a as a marker which any for-profit organization as then the direct questions going to be asked is how do we see Money we spend on an engineer for an open source project How do we see that that contributes to our revenue directly and that could be a complicated question to answer if it's even possible to answer And then just in general putting aside even open source You know incentivizing incentives and software are hard to begin with right like we know this like I as I mentioned I was an engineering manager for many years, so I am well aware That there's a lot of perverse incentives that you can create in software if you're not careful And so we have to understand those incentives and how we've set up our instead of structure again probably related to revenue And how that is going to impact our ability to contribute to open source And it's complicated for the open source projects because again I think it's a very very preachy thing here, but you know, we've got maintainers burning both ends of the can we saw In the keynote yesterday that like 30% of projects have one maintainer or less Or one I think it was one developer less even right and you know many don't even have a maintainer And so how we sustain projects and how we continue to sustain projects is a huge question again Something I've talked with a lot of colleagues and friends about this week Even for some of the largest open source projects in the world sustainability is a big question and Then I think lastly software is more than just software So what I mean by this is you know again to steal from my my colleague Melissa's keynote this morning You know, it's about the people right these people connections Are going to be the things that incentivize folks much more than maybe the financial incentives or any of these other things and so understanding that and understanding how to relate that to the finance Side of things and to the you know the realities of the world We live in and organizations you work for is is critical for open source projects to understand as They're asking for help and and setting themselves up to receive help and then finally it's complicated for individual contributors because you know it can be tough so first of all I think You know I we have a whole set of folks in our community team working on education in software, and I think That you know the education system at least I'm mostly aware of the computer science education system in the US Isn't necessarily necessarily set up for folks to understand what it's like to collaborate with other people on a software project, right? The inverse of this is well open source teaches you that really fast, right? Like you have to learn really quickly what it's like to collaborate how to interact with people that you know Maybe aren't in the same time zone as you or maybe don't have the same first language as you And that's first language human language or computer language and Then again, we have these transactional versus social relationships, so if as an individual contributor What I'm getting out of contributed open source might not be You know the financial gains that that may come from that and so And if I turn it into a transactional relationship for me It changes the way that my brain thinks about and incentivizes it to myself, right? Because then it becomes a very transactional one-to-one relationship Which isn't the thing that you know makes open source thrive and then I mean software incentives are hard So again, I think it's hard for us as engineers and as software developers to understand You know how to incentivize ourselves, right? What are we incentivized by? and and again listen to the maybe conflicting incentives of what you know the company wants from me versus what I know is right for the long-term benefit, right? This isn't this goes outside of open source, right? This is when it comes to technical debt or anything, you know How do we lay a foundation for the long-term viability of a project versus focus too short-term on you know the revenue need and So all of those complications I think mean that we really need to you know make this business case for open source And that's that's the thing I want to focus on towards the end of the talk here, which is you know, what? an organization Especially a for-profit organization wants is for their their folks to focus on that proprietary work, right? That's the in the side the factory work that adds value to the raw materials that have come in And differentiates them from their competition, right? And we see that the automotive industry today, right? There's all kinds of things that bells and whistles on cars that are trying to differentiate themselves themselves from their competition But another very important thing that I think again gets overlooked is the longevity of products and services, right? So yes, there's a lot of short-term revenue goals probably right if you're a public company you're thinking about every quarter But setting up the company for the long term is also something that you know proprietary work can do and again It drives the value to the customer Versus non-proprietary work. So this is the work That's undifferentiated from Competition I think sometimes well, I know sometimes that in organizations Open source gets lumped into this side of the things right because oh well It's the same as our competition right if we're using Kubernetes and they're using Kubernetes. Well, it's the same It's it's just the cost of doing business, right? A lot of folks will sign up for a foundation And pay their their yearly feet of the foundation because well, that's the cost of doing business And at best then but the problem is if you look at open source that way You wouldn't nest you wouldn't I think if you asked any of those business leaders look at a supplier of a good For something you're manufacturing that way But it's easy to look at open source that way because you're not paying anything for it And then at best then maybe you'll get some efficiency from using open source software but at worst it's going to be this drain on staff that understand what you could be doing if only you you set them free and And so I think that seeing open source as the modern supply chain is the answer here because that's what allows businesses to Understand the value and there's actually a lot of research being done on this point there's I've read a few studies out of Harvard Business School and a lot of them talk about more research They're doing which I'm excited to see But in one they said that they've already seen that they can correlate a 2x increase in productivity of engineers Companies that who contribute back to open source directly versus those who don't And so that's a huge corollary that I think again we probably notice and would expect But it's great to see that we're actually studying this and seeing that you know in this new world right this world where we're kind of You know we went to the sass world And that took the operational burden maybe off of us from running my software when now we're moving to the cloud native world where Some of us are taking that operational burden back on because of the advantages we can get from open source and cloud native technologies And that blurring of the line between on-prem and cloud then Those changes are going to necessarily mean that open source is where we have to focus our our attention And so what I think you have to do in order to take advantage of this is move from consumers of open source to Contributors and I want to very carefully define a bunch of terms here, so First I think to move from being a consumer to a contributor have to move from a consumer to a customer Yeah, I said earlier like no business that's in manufacturing would think of you know Someone that was providing raw materials to them as just you know Oh, we're just we just consume that from them, right? They would at least see themselves as a customer right because the risk there's a real risk to the business if you don't understand That supplier you don't understand, you know, where the raw materials are coming from you don't understand You know that it is part of the critical path of what you're producing And so we have to think of open source the same way And that means you know looking for ways that we can Partner better and at least you know make sure that we understand the sustainability of this this raw material This this open source software. We're consuming right and so that's probably contributing to financial needs You know kind of just the basics of making sure that open source is sustainable But then I think again the what the strategic advantage is going to come from moving from a customer to a contributor and You know that is where the real strategic advantage is going to come being able to partner with open source programs to have influence on their their roadmaps to be able to Attact and retrain attract and retain talent right that's something everyone's worried about today Those are the things that are going to come as you really start to move to a contributor of open source and it goes beyond engineering, right? there's there's there's plenty of Professional help that open source projects would love or need that goes even beyond engineers, right? It's ux. It's documentation. It's design and that's what really is going to set up the sustainability in the long term and And so again, I just just to like kind of summarize Three things about being a customer and three things about being a contributor I think one is acknowledging it's part of your supply chain right understanding your supply chain Understanding the inventory of what's in it, right? We've again heard a lot about s bombs and spdx and lots of great ways to do that I think those are great technical solutions But I think step one is to acknowledge that it's a problem and we need to understand what our supply chain is And bringing contribution contributions right even just well-written issues and understanding how to interact with Software that you're using right the the log 4j example of sending a cease and desist But sending a lawyer letter right to fix the software that we never buy like Couldn't show a bigger disconnect between, you know, how are we using this software and who's on the other end of it? And then contributing financially and then to be a contributor. I think it's it goes beyond that It's this relationship. It's being able to you know come here right again. We've done that But also, you know higher maintainers and and higher contributors to work full-time on projects To contribute beyond engineering right lots of professionals That work in our industry that go beyond engineering and those folks are needed in open source projects as well And then focus on sustainability right what is the contributor to maintain our pipeline look like right? These are things that open source projects are grappling with But they're things that us as consumers can be better contributors by by helping And so lastly well two last things where I promised you okay. What can we do right again? We believe all of this so what can individual contributors do? Well, I think again we can focus on enumerating this right showing the business What is the risk involved right if this this piece of software goes away tomorrow? It's a critical part of our supply chain And and what impact would that be that probably is a very large risk? And something that I think is a business risk. That's not talked about a lot And no one you know no CIO or CEO out there wants to be The next one like to get a call about Apache struts or whatever or be called in front of Congress to talk about it And so I think if they understand this risk It will encourage them to get moving and understand that but also think you can encourage open source values, right? We see a lot in in business Businesses wanting to you know do inner sourcing and have these kind of open source values within the business I think the best way to do that is to have folks that understand open source and are active in those communities right that are Where of transparency and collaboration and all these things that come from working in open source? And then lastly let's say you're you know a business leader or a technology leader Well, I think you have to see open source as this investment both a risk mitigation and an investment in a strategic advantage I think you have to understand you've got to build a model for the impact to revenue either of the risk or of the Competitive advantage because if you don't build that model. I just I don't think it's going to be sustainable You have to focus on how much you're able to retrat retain or attract new talent, right? And I think that we all know that open source is a big way to do that You have to focus on the innovation that's coming right how fast you're able to innovate Using open source and being able to influence the open source software that you're using as a supplier How how much does that speed up your your innovation and? Then lastly tomorrow, you know, what can any of us do right? I think again you've heard time and time again this week These first two things right? Oh, you need to itemize what a open source you have you need to identify The problems and the critical parts of your supply chain But I think last the thing that's missing from that the thing that's a step bigger than oh Jeez, we need to secure all the software is you know, how can we incentivize from today forward? Those correct practices going forward, right? How can we be more involved in those communities? So that it's not you know kind of a fire drill at the end to figure out well What do we have and how do we fix it? And so I think that is the number one thing to take away from this talk is you know How can we change the incentives or understand the incentives that are in place so far in our organizations in our engineering departments? To be better open source citizens So thank you so much I've got some more information and I'm going to be collecting more stuff here at Brendan fyi slash open And I've intentionally saved time for questions So I'd love to you know here where you want to challenge what I've said or or have questions about anything I talked about, but thank you so much Yes, no, maybe Yeah, go ahead Sure. Yeah, so the question is around get lab and I'm repeat. I have to repeat it for the folks on online So question is around get lab and how what have we done? You know if we've got a customer that's paying us for get lab and you know for support and those kinds of things How do we focus on getting that customer involved? Well that I think that's a huge challenge as well, right? And so for us as a commercial open-source company, it's maybe also another unique challenge And so I think that I think the number one thing that we've done to help that is our focus on transparency, right? We've always been a transparent company and and that has allowed us to really live open-source values in a way That if we weren't focused on that we wouldn't be able to write our roadmap is out there our issues are all public Our code is out there even our proprietary code, right? So we're an open-core model Where we we have the open-source Software and we build proprietary and stuff of that even that is source available And so we've had customers even contribute to that to the proprietary side of the code And then you know also I think that co-creation of open-source. We just had kind of have that built in But it also takes educating customers that don't necessarily have that mentality of you know, how can we co-create together? And not again have a relationship. That's different than just us, you know supply or consumer, but you know a supplier partner And so I think that it's important to have programs focused on that right? We have a technical account management program that's tied directly into that tied directly in our product people And it's a lot easier for them than someone that may be a less transparent company because it can all be in the open And so again that that adds to their ability to impact Product right. Yeah, so the question is are the Tams incentivize to get customers involved Actually not directly But the Tams are incentivized for growth, right and we know that growth in our customers comes from Expanded use of the different areas of of GitLab. So GitLab is a DevOps platform You know, it's got Git of course and Scott CICD and it's got observability and it's got issue planning And we know that the thing that drives most growth for us is folks using more of that platform And that necessitates I think for the Tams for the technical account managers Having conversations with them with a wider group of people than they would otherwise maybe have to Add an organization Which then I think gets the attention of the right folks to make that wait Hold on we can have a different level of relationship here than just oh, I'm a director that bought some software and that's it Great question. Yes Great, yeah, it's a great question. And so yes, so just to again repeat the question It's from the lawyer in the room, which is important for the question because you know, we've talked about Open source has critical infrastructure and in the law words have meaning and critical infrastructure has meaning And so because of that if it is critical infrastructure truly then that means that government can regulate it or should regulate it or does regulate it And so what role does the government have to play in all this? I would definitely encourage you if you didn't see the keynote from From Eric. Yeah, I I think I subscribed to Eric's philosophy I think I knew that before I saw that talk and now I do even more And so what that philosophy is is I think I think government has a role in incentivizing the right practices here and I think I think It's it's a foregone conclusion that that's true Because software is everywhere, right? So even if you want to argue the finer points of is open-source software critical infrastructure by the definition of critical infrastructure Even if that answer is no open-source software is used in critical infrastructure, right? You cannot argue against that In my in my opinion, I guess but because this we saw that with the colonial pipeline hack and and and various things like that The the electrical grid right things that are critical infrastructure are running software Open-source software is eating the world So I think there is a role for the government to play. I would hope And I was probably you know getting a little political for my own political philosophy I would hope that incentivizing would be the best way for the for the government to be involved But that's definitely comma Brendon O'Leary personal opinion But yeah, I think I think there's a huge I think there's I love what the opens open SSS f is doing in experimenting How can you know we turn money into security again? We've heard about that I'm excited that we're doing that and hopefully I would hope from that There can be some successful experiments that then the government can use to say okay We can incentivize these kinds of things to happen and we will get this result That would be government at its best Whether or not we'll see that you know that remains to be seen Great question, okay This would you give to leadership that would be worried about potential litigation on contributed source code It's a great question. And so the question. Yeah, I don't need to repeat it because you said in the mic but yeah the so I think that there is a lot of Settled law on that I think I think it's it's very clear As long as you have, you know, I think if you look at the OCI And approved licenses if you look at things like DCA And the other one the other contributor agreement, I think they're pretty settled law that That as long as you you follow kind of that what they say I don't think there's a huge liability there now if you don't know The licenses in the open-source software that you're using The the inverse is true. You have a massive liability. You don't realize it And so you do again need to do that that identify an itemized step of understanding You know what you have in place because you you also cannot just Assume something's open-source and that you can use it, right? If there's a copy left license Yeah, there's a huge liability probably involved and so you have to understand What exactly is in the software you're using first? Yeah, go ahead. Oh, we had one here. Sorry. Thanks What's happening in China with giddy and have what's happening with git lab? Specifically I've in my research. I know that git lab has been very popular in China necessarily as git lab itself, but as a licensed product in a Special venture sure and and as people might not know People have been saying that Get hub has been temporarily been banned again in China and you can have to go into development in private repos So what's happening in house get lab? Navigating things and How do you yeah see things going forward sure I'll start by saying I'm definitely not the Best person to talk about that from git lab and I could get you in touch with those folks if you if you're super interested in it But yes, as you mentioned Git lab in China currently is being deployed in China through a joint venture that we have there called ji hu and And so that allows them to have a fully in country And they actually have their own distribution of git lab It's I get the beauty of open sources get labs open source and open for everyone And so they're able to create their own distribution and have it there I think it's very complicated for web scale companies to understand how to negotiate this and I have zero advice on how to do that And so I think you're right that it's something that we're going to continue to see but I again Brennan O'Leary opinion hopeful optimist is I would hope that open source can be a big part of that solution Yes Thanks great presentation. I love the slides. Thank you You know probably something that you see with git lab is many companies They have proprietary software But then go and have public repos To kind of create an ecosystem of open source around the proprietary software, which I think it's a good idea Many companies are doing it And they bring their customers and say hey, you can you know, this is this this open source integration Take this take that But from that point to what you were talking about like Make those companies contribute to open source contribute to some of those critical software supply chain components. I See that that's a big Lip there like it's a significant change between just just Open source in your script some some things like that around your own proprietary software than really contributed And I would love to hear your take on that as a really really good point Yeah, I and I know I'm caveatting every answer in Brenda Larry opinion, but this is another one. It could be hot, right? So I will Yeah, I think that if you're a company if your company Thinks oh, we're gonna open source something again. That's great, right fantastic bit more open software better And hopefully gives a lot of eyes on it and make bugs shallow But that does not mean you're open for open source, right? One of my my first things That means you're trying to You might be unfortunately Moving more towards consumer and more towards take than give, right? And and I and that's unfortunate for open source, but I think it's also unfortunate for the company if that's where they stop Right, I think that's a great start because it gets you into that mentality of the value of open source But I again, I'm hoping with this presentation and continue talking about it To say the real value comes when you're able to Partner with open source and all of the open source projects you're working on or working with or using Not just open sourcing some code and saying well now we have open dot Organization comm and we're great, right? And so I think that it's important for organizations not to see that as a finish line But maybe as a starting line it could be great. I've got one minute left if anyone has one more burning question Great. Thank you all for coming. I really appreciate it