 Welcome back to the non-profit show, Happy 2024. We were just bragging that this is our first show of the new year and we are thrilled to have with us today Ingrid Kirst joining us. She is the CEO of Ingrid Kirst Consulting New Year Time to Shift Gears and she's here to talk about understanding change and what that might look like for your organization. We of course are thrilled to be here. I'm Jarrett Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group, also known as non-profit nerd. Thrilled to have Julia with me today, CEO of the American Non-profit Academy. You know, Julia Patrick, you are the one that said in March of 2020, let's do this. It's going to be a two-week endeavor. Here we are moving towards our 1,000th, that's hard to say, episode. And really excited to do that. But we wouldn't be able to do this and have such a successful journey if it weren't for our amazing sponsors. So shout out of gratitude goes to our friends over at Bloomerang, American Non-profit Academy, Non-profit Thought Leader, Staffing Boutique, your part-time controller, 180 Management Group, Fundraising Academy at National University. Also thank you to JMT Consulting, a non-profit nerd, as well as Non-profit Tech Talk. So these companies will be joining us every single month. Representative will come on and speak about who they are, what they do, but moreover how they serve you and your organization in the sector. So if you missed any of our previous episodes, go ahead and find them here. You can actually pull out your smartphone now, mine is bright pink. Scan that QR code to get the app and you can still find us on broadcast and podcast platforms. So there is plenty of entertainment downloaded on those channels for you to find. And Ingrid, it is now your time to shine my friend. We've done all of our housekeeping, but for those of you watching and listening, we have Ingrid Kirst in studio with us today, or I almost said in the house, you know, just like I'm still in party mode. So she's CEO of Ingrid Kirst Consulting. Welcome to you. Thank you. Yeah, it's great to be here. Ingrid, tell us a little bit, if you were joining us in the green room chatter, any of our viewers, tell us how you met Jared Ransom, nonprofit nerd. So Jared and I do a lot of similar things. So I'm based in Lincoln, Nebraska, and I do interim executive director work, and then I help organizations going through transitions of leadership changes. And Jared and I have both been involved with the Interim Academy through third sector, and we got to co-present on a panel this summer. So that was a lot of fun. Yeah, a lot of fun. So glad to have you here. You know, we love having guests from across the country, really across the globe, because what you're seeing in your community is often different than what we see in ours and, you know, guests from other places. So really excited to have you here, because I can only imagine many organizations are looking to shake things up in 24. So let's get started. You are going to talk to us about the Bridges Model, and that includes change versus transition. What does that mean? What is this Bridges Model? So this is a really great way to be thinking about changes in your organization. Small ones, large ones, comes from William Bridges. He wrote a book, Long Go, called Managing Transitions, Making the Most of Change. And what he really did is give a really good framework to think about changes. So the basic level, a change is really that external event, that thing that happens. Somebody leaves a job, you move to a new building. It's, you could say when it happened, it's done, it's over. Yeah. But we all know that just because something changed didn't mean we were ready for it mentally, especially. So that's the transition part. That's the people thinking through, you know, what does this change mean to me? You know, this leader is leaving who I've loved as a boss, somebody new is coming in. Who's that person going to be? And we all go through that process at different rates, and it depends on the change. You know, some changes are no big deal. You're ready for them and other ones you're not so sure about. And so especially for those bigger changes, it's really important to give everybody time to think through those changes, talk through what it means for them, and really adapt to it so that they are ready to move on to whatever that new thing is. Wow. You know, I love how you framed this up because honest to goodness, I could not make this up, but I was talking with somebody last week who's from a very large nonprofit and their CEO just retired and they have a new CEO, which they knew they were going to get, right? It was already somebody from the organization. But the stress that this person was experiencing was kind of shocking. And I feel like this new CEO is going to be great. I don't think it's like anything but yay, raw, raw team. But I can see now what you're talking about. It's just almost something change comes over us and we have fear. Is that what it is? Yeah, that is definitely a big part of it. It's the fear of the unknown and even if it's an exciting change, even if it's, you know, you're moving to a new city and you're super excited. But there's also that, am I going to know anybody? Am I going to like it? You know, there's that part of it too. And so it's important to recognize that. I love hearing you speak about the difference of change versus transition. And really looking at, I was serving in an interim role and this organization had undergone change after change after change after change. A lot of changes, right? And one of the board members says maybe we should start calling it, you know, we're in a transition as opposed to change because change did elicit fear. Even from the staff and the community, it was like, uh-oh, what's happening there, right? Like, is change good? I believe it absolutely can be, right? But like, how do we speak the words to really, I'm going to say, um, like galvanize the support and the people to follow that change. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, there's so much to it. And I think not only is change good, it's inevitable. And, you know, I do a lot with organizations around succession planning. And I keep saying, guys, everybody's going to leave their position. Right. Right. It's going to happen. Like, just kind of, um, but I think it's really important to start with focusing on what is that, what is ending? Right. And, you know, whether it's somebody is leaving or you're closing down a program or whatever that change is, think about what is ending and give people really a chance to talk it through. Um, especially, you know, if you're seeing emotions are coming up among staff and they're kind of, I don't know what to think about this, um, really give them that time in a group or individually to talk through, how are they feeling? What does this mean to them? Because if you don't, that new, that change happens, the new thing happens. And then those emotions are going to come up and they're not going to be good ones because people didn't get a chance to really process through what it means for them and how they're feeling. Yeah. But when you say good endings, it's a really interesting thing because it seems like we don't get there mentally until we're there, right? Versus really laying it out on the line and saying, okay, this is where we're going. Is that kind of what you're, you're guiding us towards? Yeah, definitely. It's, you know, thinking through like, what, what does this look like in the future? What am I feeling like I'm losing and just feeling hurt? I mean, I think that's a big thing. You know, I see it with executive director transitions. You know, the board has known for months that the ED is leaving. Maybe it's a planned retirement and they've all been planning for it. And then they'll come and they'll do a big announcement to the staff and expect that the staff are all excited and ready to move on. And the staff are shell shocked and just need time to process. And they're just hearing it. The board has had the time to think it through. The executive director is excited, but the staff are now like, wait, what's happening? And they start thinking about looking for a new job because everything's changing. So maybe I should do something different. So the board really, and the outgoing ED really need to take some time with the staff to think through what are we doing? How are we doing this? How can we give people that processing time? Okay. So I'm going to throw a curveball question to you because you know, there's, there seems to be two avenues. And one of them goes later scenarios, I should say, one of them goes like this. You don't disclose to your team that you're going to be changing out too far in advance because that becomes perilous versus showing strength and changing over quickly. And I'm dying to know how you view this because it's pretty significant, it's significantly different this approach, short term versus long term. Yeah. And I mean, there is no right answer. Of course, but I think, you know, in the case of retirement, so it's a long time executive director, you know, there's real value in just talking about it. And I, when I do work with organizations on succession planning, I'm encouraging them to talk about the subject. Like I said, everybody leaves their job. Let's be talking about it and preparing for it. You know, but not say I am leaving on January 1st, 2025. That's the difference. You're talking about, you know, something I'm going to leave and I would really like you staff person to take on this new project that I used to do because, you know, someday I'm not going to be here and I want you to grow in your skill set. And just giving people that, but not focusing on it, not talking about it all the time, because then people are always kind of worried, oh, it's coming, it's coming. But preparing your staff, preparing the board, so you've got a really strong board to do a search process. And generally I see like six month announcements about the right range, like if it's a long-term retirement, obviously there's plenty of cases where you don't want to do that long. But, you know, if it's somebody who's really been there a long time, like six months gives people time to prepare, lets you put it out publicly sooner so people can be excited and aware, but it's not dragging the process out. Yeah. Well, it takes some stakeholder communication. And I'm really curious, Ingrid, what you're seeing, because Julie and I have seen, you know, a lot of CEOs, a lot of executive directors have hung in there, right, when they wanted to retire several years ago because of the pandemic. Here we are 2024, the pandemic really, you know, initiated March of 2020. I think we all have that marked on our calendars. But really looking at it from a standpoint of there are such, we're seeing it, I'm seeing it, such a transition now happening at that executive level because these leaders have hung on through the storm and now they're like, that's it? I have no more left in me, right? So are you seeing more change happening right now? Yeah, I definitely am. There are lots of different transitions and similar things. Yeah, people hung in through crazy times and now they're just tired and ready to move on. Well, it's really interesting because again, as we have guests, you know, that join us from across the globe, kind of hearing what's happening in different communities. So interesting to hear that you're also seeing that happen as well. You have a talking point that you're going to share with us and it's about staying to that neutral zone or getting to that neutral zone. What does that mean and how do we do it? What's the secret sauce of go? Yeah, I need to know that. So the idea behind the neutral zone, so first you've got that ending, you've got whatever's ending, dealing with that, really communicating well throughout this whole process. That's key. And then the neutral zone is that time, that in-between time. So somebody maybe has announced they're leaving will continue with that example. Everybody knows, but the new person hasn't started yet. The neutral zone is that in-between time where people are, you know, still thinking things through, but they're starting to think about the new and what's coming. And it's a great time for creativity, brainstorming, thinking about what we could change with a new leader. And so there's a great opportunity there to really make some small changes, make some, you know, little things that you just wanted to do or start thinking about what are the big things that we could do in the future. So use that creative time to really develop the new ideas before the new person starts. But while you have the old, I shouldn't say old, but the previous leadership is still in place, is that what you're advocating? That is one way to do it. Yeah. Another way is this is a great opportunity for an interim executive director to come in, especially when you do have somebody leaving who's been there for a long time and maybe things were really set doing it one way. Yeah. This is a great opportunity for an interim director to come in and help the organization through that neutral zone, make some of those changes that need to be made, develop some new processes, clean up things, and really have the organization then in great shape to hand off to a new leader. Yeah. You know, we talk a lot, well maybe not enough about that interim leader. So glad you're bringing, you know, voice to that perspective. Jeffrey Wilcox has been on, of course, with, you know, third sector. And as we talk about interim leadership, waving that flag, flag ingrate is so important because that neutral zone, bringing in a professional interim, right, will certainly help to set the stage for that neutral zone. I love that you mentioned, and I forget when, but it was earlier in our conversation about, you know, there might be someone within the organization to take the position, or there might be a readjustment of the org chart, so to speak, right? But you might already have all the players on your roster. They just might be in like different, you know, different placements to look at that. So bringing that neutral zone, talk to us about, now we're in that neutral zone, and we want to craft some new beginnings. Who starts that movement, right? Like, how do we get into that new beginnings? But I love that you said earlier, you know, we want to manage change starting with a good ending. So here we are, you know, managing change with like, what is it we want in the end? What does that end goal look like? And now, how do we craft a new beginning? Right. So if you've created that good end, you've taken that time in the neutral zone, don't want to stay there too long, because then you don't want people being in that wishy-washy state for too long. But then you come into that new beginnings, and you know, this goes back to, this is when that change happens. So that new leader comes in, and they are then part of that new beginning. So the idea is, then people are excited to move forward, they're ready, new energy, they're open to learning, creating what that new normal is for the organization. And so this is where the board can really be a support in helping the new leader come in and look for what those, what that new beginning looks like. And starting to kind of visualize it with the staff, giving people a chance to give input into what do they want, what do they, what do they want to see, what part do they want in the transition? How can they be involved? You know, maybe they are training the new executive director on their role and what that looks like, and the changes that they see that maybe down the road could happen. So there's lots of, lots of ways that people can get involved. And I think that's the most important part is communication and having everybody involved is just going to make for a better transition. Yeah, I keep going back to communication, and I hear you did too. What are some of your best practices when it comes to, you know, really this bridges model that you started talking to us about change versus transition? What does communication look like throughout this entire journey, right? And then who is the person that is really, you know, the main communicator? Maybe there's multiple people, internal, external, but can you talk to us more about that communication as we navigate change as well as transition? Yeah, and I think consistency is key. So like you said, having one person be the main communicator is really good. I would say an executive director transition, it should be the board chair or one of the board leaders who's just continually communicating with staff. And I really emphasize over communicating because just because you told somebody something once doesn't mean they remember it. Or heard it. Yeah, or heard it. I love that. Yeah, I think you're right. So, you know, have that all staff meeting and talk with everybody and then follow up with an email and say, you know, here's what's happening. I see this happen when organizations do executive director searches. They just, you know, they tell staff they're going to look for somebody and the next thing the staff here is we've hired so and so. And you don't have to, you can't tell the staff along the way, you know, who the candidates are and who you're considering and any of that, but you can tell them, hey, we got an applicants this week or we're doing interviews this week and we're going to have an announcement in two weeks. That goes a long way to just making people feel more comfortable. They know what's coming. It reduces uncertainty. So just thinking about that and giving that communication over and over will help people move along with change process. Yeah. You know, Ingrid, I was working with an organization that brought on a new CEO after a long tenure from the previous CEO. I mean, decades. And one of the things that this new CEO did is they it was a statewide organization. They went on a listening tour. And they went through all these different sites in very different parts of the state where they were that had regional differences and cultural differences. And in some cases, language differences. And then the CEO brought it back to the C-suite and then kind of came up with some new ideas and then released what had been heard. And I thought that was fascinating. I thought it was bold. It took a lot of work. This was not for the faint of heart, you know. But I'm wondering what you think about that. Does that set you up for success or maybe some failure? No, I think that's an excellent idea. Anything you can do for listening when there is a big change happening is going to want, you know, people will feel heard, of course, that somebody actually cared. But it also gives you some really good information of things that might otherwise be missed and sets you up for a better transition. Yeah. I think that's fascinating, Julia. And I really think that, you know, we should be doing that regardless of change. You know, that should be part of what we do on an ongoing basis because there is so much that happens in different areas. That to me is just a great champion's tool to turn to. It is. But, you know, one of the things that I'm always concerned about is if you do ask and you don't respond... Implement. Implement. Implement is the correct word. Then are you creating more of a... Are you damaging the goodwill? I mean, I'm curious about that because I've always heard that about, like, you know, the suggestion box in the cafeteria. And then, you know, you'll hear, well, I put suggestions in there and nobody listens or nobody answers. Like, it's kind of part of that ecosystem of change and transition. Like, what do you do? Yeah, there's certainly, and really characterizing it as we can't make every change right away. Yeah. We're gathering information on and then looking at it holistically and really framing it that way to begin with. Yeah, people are always going to have their pep thing that they really want changed and maybe it's just not possible. Right. But continuing to say, hey, we are hearing you. That's a fascinating idea. Let's see what we can do. But yeah, you can't promise to do everything. Yeah. It's the coke in the water fountains. Yeah, everybody wants coke in the water fountains, but you're not going to be able to get there, right? And so, yeah. I was thinking, you know, like, all of that is so valid. And I love Ingrid that you said consistency is key when it comes to that communication. And maybe in this scenario, you know, it's we're receiving your suggestions. We love many of them. We're finding times when we can implement it. But I've been there too, Julia, where it's like, you know, I've been in that interim role. I know that the communication has not always been as consistent Ingrid as, you know, necessary. And then, you know, just kind of having that fear that permeates of, am I safe, you know, for the employee, I mean, all that comes up. So there's so much to consider as we navigate forward. Again, for many of our viewers and listeners, you know, you're joining us here in early January 2024, you also might be looking down, you know, down the lane, so to speak, into what changes you're considering for the new year. There's been a lot of employment change. There's been a lot of board member change, right? Like really just looking at what is it we want to do differently and what does that look like? So I think this is just the perfect timing for the conversation, Ingrid. We love to ask this question. And it's the, you know, crystal ball question. So if you have a crystal ball, which we're assuming everyone does in this world now, go ahead and just shine it off, right? Like what are you predicting as we look forward into the new year, whether it's change, whether it's interim succession, right? Like what are some of the things you're seeing and maybe even have your finger on the pulse for prediction of what we can expect to see or maybe see differently in the new year? Well, this may be just me projecting, but I really am seeing more organizations willing to talk about change, especially big transitions, leadership changes, and really think through, like, if I talk about this now, if everybody's talking about it, we're going to be better prepared. Whether it's your key receptionist going on maternity leave and you're ready for that, or whether it's your development director leaving, you have a plan in place to capture all of their knowledge. Organizations are really seeing that the more they put effort into upfront that it's paying off and just making it okay that we're going to have transitions. Yeah. And the irony is, of course, if you do that, you're supporting your staff, you're helping them be better, they're probably going to stay longer. Absolutely. It really helps out that way. Absolutely. And you know what, Ingrid, projection, prediction, it's kind of like tomato-tomato. Well, and you have to lay it out on the line and recognize that since March of 2020, there's been nothing but change in transition globally. So if nothing else, maybe this is that time where we can be a little less stringent on what we expect and how we navigate it, that maybe we are a little bit more prepared to kind of roll with some things. And I think in our sector, that's certainly always a win. Ingrid, Kirst, this has really been fun. And I love that we started off the new year with you and this concept, because the new year is always a promise of change and transition and good things and good will. Ingrid Kirst, CEO of Ingrid Kirst Consulting, check out Ingrid's website. It's beautifully done, ingridkirst.com. And you can learn about her work and what she does in the interim space and definitely as a thought leader in the nonprofit sector. And again, what a fun thing, Jared, to have us start the new year with. A lot of fun. Glad to see you again, Ingrid. I know for viewers and listeners that might not have heard, we connected, gosh, six, seven, maybe more months ago. So love to have your conversation here, your voice here. Thank you for joining us. It's always a pleasure. I also want to say thank you to our amazing partners that allow us to bring in rock stars like Ingrid. So shout out of gratitude to our friends over at Bloomerang, American nonprofit academy, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at national university, 180 management group, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, JMT consulting, nonprofit nerd, as well as nonprofit tech talk. Julia, this list keeps growing as does our episode count. It's just been a wonderful journey. And I'm so glad we're on it again for the new year. I know, Jared, and you are a rock star. I could not ask for a better partner in this. Every day's a lot of fun. We get asked this all the time. How do you do this many shows? How do you do this every day now starting going into our fourth year? And truly from the heart, it is fun. We meet great people like we did Ingrid today. It's never the same twice. We get great ideas and feedback from people, all over the world. And so for me, it's just been a blessing and a great way to start the new year. So thank you. Absolutely. Hey, everybody, as we end every episode, and you know, we started this from the get go, but we keep saying it. It means different things. And it's a good way to bring in the new year. And our message goes like this, to stay well, so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Ingrid, thank you so much.