 Welcome back to the breakfast here on PLOS TV Africa, we're still speaking of the Nigeria's 2021 budget and certain items in the budget that shouldn't be there in the first place and the thoughts of corruption once again creeping in. Nigeria has one of its worst years security-wise despite a 1.97 trillion Naira budget for security. 24 billion Naira was allocated for security votes for which no account is given. It's not just state governors and security agencies that receive such allocations, budgets research shows that 117 non-security agencies received allocation for security votes in the 2021 budget. We're still speaking this morning with Mr Ashir Woon Igbinde and Mr Ken Ife. We also will be joined by Bosindia Raipi who's a security expert to share his thoughts on all of this. I'm going to go to Ken Ife now and bring in the security aspect of it. Shocking to hear that non-security agencies are requesting security votes and of course it has gotten to as much as 24 billion Naira in the 2021 budget and all of this of course once again non-accounted for. Quickly share your thoughts on that. Non-accounted for is a very serious matter but you see the national security is very complex and it involves not just the military, it also involves the paramilitary, involves civilians, involves small players and that's why the fight is a bit more difficult. I remember sometimes I go and give lectures to defense units on sustainable development management of national security and that is where you find a wider definition of national security in terms of economic security. There are so many things it's very very complex and if you look at like Vigilante for example Vigilante is not being done by them, it's being done by civilians. There are so many other schemes that are supportive of a more secure environment and participating in that process. So to some extent it may well be that they may look for contributions so I'm not really losing my head on this particular because the money we are talking about is really very small a few billions when we are talking about billions in terms of the budget that the military actually has. So we need to understand more who is doing what because it's a much much wider collaborative effort to deal with the security of the country. She only with you agree. In much the same way I failed to mention that if we are scrutinizing power for example solar power being done in hundreds of places also look at whether development partners are involved in this because I do find cases where development partner may replicate some support something being replicated like rural health and solar power for rural community health centers. I see some of them funding this across states so we need to look behind that's why I say that this look behind to find out the source of that funding even though they're migrating to the pocket that there will be some connection to some development assistance. Ms. Nygmene do you agree with this perspective? I mean I want the first challenge I have with security is that it's a relic of the military era and that's something we took up from the military period where governors the president the vp and everybody gets a security vote line item in the budget. Especially and it's the way it's been arrogantly peddled it's that it's not can be accounted for. I mean there's a story of a former governor of Abia State Theodology who is the cases in court and he said he spent 38.3 billion Naira in a very poor state that host teachers that host pensioners that host doctors on security votes and and and he's claiming specifically that he can we can do that because he's a governor he paid that several agencies and several organizations doesn't sound plausible to me the whole idea is for me it's it's just about waste and pure level of things not being accounted for. If we think if ministries think they need an extra security support and let that all that burden be put let all that expenditure be put under the police or the ncdc or the military even if they think they need extra security well for every single agency in the budget now so having billions of millions of Naira as their own security votes I mean which possibly you know the hypertension or the idea is that it can be accounted for it's cross the worrisome all right I don't I don't think I like at all yeah all right well now we've been joined by security expert Mr. Wasindey Raipi good morning thanks for joining us good morning how you doing fine thank you so we're talking about a reports by budgets you know they audited the 2021 budgets and found lots of loopholes uncovered massive corruption duplication of budget and and so much more and talking about this now to focus on security we know that right now there is about 10.2 trillion Naira you know six-year security votes in the Nigerian budget for 2021 despite this security votes to as much as you know 10 trillion Naira how do we explain the worsening insecurity in the country well first of all when you say security votes the question is nobody give account of security votes because it's assumed that there are unthinkable things that may be done with that money that the public may donate explanation of for the interest of government so security votes is not the easiest way of looting money from the government by office holders because that money you don't necessarily have to give a detailed account of what it is used for because most security activities are covert activities for example the government cannot come and explain to the public how much they have to pay for intelligence or for informants and all of that for the police IG or the DSS they don't have to give such account those are covert issues so these places have given loopholes for budgets or security votes to become a loophole where office holders of different levels and appointed and elected begin to look loot the national funds that's on that angle now coming to insecurity in Nigeria never have we ever had problem in all geopolitical zone at the same time in the past we have had issues of militancy in the Niger Delta where I am later we had the issue of Boko Haram but they were not happening simultaneously this is the first time we are having a simultaneous attack from all quarters all geopolitical zone in the nation in the state Nigeria what is the cost of this the current occupants of the federal government of Nigeria upon whom the title of the commander in chief of the armed forces falls under has failed to protect the lives and property and because they have failed to properly manage the security issue in the north the people in the south east and west have seen the weakness of the government in handling security issues therefore everybody think that they can now attack the Nigerian state because of the incapability of the government to protect the people that is why we are witnessing insecurity the lapses in the way they have coordinated the Boko Haram insurgents how they have not been able to sort that issue is what give rise to other persons that look they can't handle Boko Haram why not we fire them from this area now criminals hoodlums and all sorts are having a field day in the country it is linked to the incapability of the federal government all right however there is a solution yeah okay go ahead hello so mr. Ipe talking about the solution now we know that security votes is top secrets in Nigeria and if we've talked about how it's not exactly justified seeing that you know they can't come out to tell us just how much they're paying informants and all of that and it gives room for corruption budget padding and all of that so what is the solution to this do we totally scrap security votes if that's not possible seeing that indeed we have security needs you know to fund what should be the solution to this security votes and the mystery behind it in addition to the corruption challenge well at this point I don't think we should be talking about security votes I think we should be talking about the solution to the current insecurity in our nation Nigeria I say this with all sense of responsibility as a citizen of the federal republic the solution is simple when you have failed when we say I have said that the federal government has failed in their responsibility of protecting lives and property and I'm blaming the federal government because in Nigeria the power to control arms rests solely on the president of the federal republic that is why he's called the commander in chief of the armed forces that is why I am blaming the federal government now the only way to sort this issue out hasn't seen that you cannot handle it it is time to decentralize some of the federal security agencies and hand over full control to the state government and talking state policing now state policing does not mean you ban the Nigerian police or you hand them over to the government no that is not what I mean when I talk about state police what I'm saying is that the Nigerian police force is there as a federal police but tell me what is the Nigerian security and civil defense doing with guns they said that they are to fight bonkrieg and all this illegal bonkrieg and then a private guards approval that is rubbish I have read the act of the Nigerian security and civil defense as amended and they have rights to perform almost everything the Nigerian police do all right they can also do it so if they can do it what we need the federal government to do is this decentralize the leadership of the ncdc the civil defense decentralize their leadership hand them over to state government let the governor appoint the state commandant of ncdc all right mr right because of time maybe the commander in chief of the of the ncdc all right mr right but because of time I would like us to you know focus our conversations this morning on the on the budget and the financial aspect of it so I'm going to go back before we wrap up I'm going to go back to Sherwin O'Neill Monday I want you to share your thoughts on what the government's response should be it's not the first time budget is putting out an analysis like this it's also not the first time that it has very likely been ignored so what would you expect from the budget office of the Nigerian government from this and of course the accountant general auditor general all of them what is your expectations from all of this hello our approach is to take you forward which is to engage with three main arms the budget office the engage with the budget officers in the respective ministries and also engage with the national assembly and want to do this within the next two months so that we can influence the 2022 budget cycle and be able to like some of the issues that we see at the end of the day it all goes back to political will to do the right thing if we say our budget to process as crucial to resource optimization then we will do the right thing so we are going to do the engagement on this okay so Mr Ken Ife bringing you in lastly you are an economist so what should the Nigerian budget look like for it to you know truly be a budget that lifts up the economic status of Nigeria well I think that two things in your question one is really about the budget itself and how important it is and what it could do but the important thing really is what the budget people have doing because we cry that we don't have enough money to do most of the things we wanted our revenue is only one third of its potential because the government revenues about six percent a tax is six percent of our GDP Africa average is about 18 percent so we know we have a mileage to go three four inputs but how about the one we are getting how is he being spent that's where the budget work is so critical but I have to say to this in summing up the there are shared constituency around the budget the federal authorities have their job then the assembly have their jobs there has always been contention between them on the on where the power stops and where the other person's power begins and I keep asking them to go to Supreme Court so this is whatever happens these two people are very very important so in your advocacy scheme you must involve the national assembly and as well as the federal authorities and I've seen I've seen national assembly screaming that that they have their initial at the initial the right to participatory budget and which means that they must be taken into account in the budgeting process and not left out and then eventually take them to come and become a robust so that goes to the to the base of this so and that's saying that look you claim that you have done because we don't see anything on the ground my people are complaining to me so you really have to engage both parties and do their capacity to understand what they need to do and then bring the public scrutiny which is what you are doing by having this on television so just a little bit more work to be done but keep on with the technology technology is our savior in this country okay this is what we take us to the next level not not a you know host trading or any of that it is technology all right how effectively we use it and how we now bring the advocacy framework to ensure that it is used properly to build capacity of all the stakeholders all right a lot of advocacy a lot of these conversations a lot of the unraveling but most importantly the political will to actually look into these things and make the necessary changes we'll say thank you to Mr Ken ife thanks for joining us show niggmin day thank you also for your time this morning thank you and Boston they are right thanks for your time good morning to you once again all right so um that basically sums that up you know budgets is now asking for the government to actually audit the budget and short transparencies just for us to wait and see once again political will just exactly general's office as a budget office as an accountant general there's a national assembly these things shouldn't just you know be passed through and signed off and and given a go ahead without some of these things being spotted how is it so easy for budget as an as an an organization as a company to spot these things but we have institutions that have been set up for these purposes and they've ignored it and like I said it's not the first time budget is pointing these things out they have organizations like syrup for exactly they have in previous budgets but they've mostly been ignored and Ken ife also mentioned sometimes they're taken out and then brought back in and so it's it's a system that has continued to evolve and continue to not what not even involve it's continued to be like this for a very very long time um mostly I believe because it benefits you know some people and so yes Mr Ken ife said it so if the budget seems like an extension of personal interest what what really is the hope of the common man yeah so that's the conversation on the budget we'll take a break here and return to stay with us