 Welcome back to the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Well, kickstarting our conversation this morning with the June 12th protest and how the security operatives and the government are taking it in the country. We know that it was a democracy day, June 12th on Saturday, just two days ago. And all across the country, Nigerians gathered in their numbers in capital cities across Nigeria to protest, saying they want a realization of the ideas of democracy. And we know that some policemen, some security operatives, made arrests. Senior advocates of Nigeria like Fermi Falano are speaking up against that, saying the police need to apologize to protesters and release them. We also heard Tunde Kala Wali, a lawyer that we had on off the press, saying lawyers are coming together to make sure that he prosecutes the case, so prosecute all involved and make sure that all protesters who are arrested are released. Now, to join us speak on this matter, we've invited Mr. Oshina Webrahim, who is a risk and policy management expert. Good morning, thanks for joining us. Good morning. Good morning, we asked. Good morning, everybody. All right, so when we heard about the June 12th and the news of protests in Sarah Park in Nigeria, we know how the police came out to say they didn't hear anything like that and what the police had been saying about this. So we need to find out regarding protests in Nigeria. Is there a limit or a restriction on the rights to protest in this part of the world? Well, anywhere in the world, not exception, it's not excluding Nigeria. There is a UN convention that guarantee the freedom of association, freedom of lawful gathering and freedom to express your view in any capacity. So what the protestors has done is lawful, not only lawful, it's their fundamental human rights that is guaranteed by the 1999 constitution as amended. So I think they are on the right path. If the police have been issued as arrested anybody, I will advise the Honorable Commissioner of Police, Mr. Kim Udmosu, to immediately, not matter of choice, not matter of patronage, we should immediately release those that have been detained unlawfully. Because for me and for us who has been in the trench of civil society, participants in student movement believe that they have conducted themselves in the last time, lawful protest peacefully. So there's no reason for detaining anybody. Most of the protestors that I personally view on national TV and other questions around legals were peaceful. Everybody can express themselves about what the government is doing that is not right. So I will call on the Nigerian Police, the Inspector General Police, and the Commissioner of Police in Lagos to immediately, to immediately, please kindly release them so that they can go about their lawful living. That's right. We over the weekend also saw videos from the protests and the reaction of the Nigerian policemen to these protestors. We saw some of them being arrested. We saw tear gas canisters being fired, and some of all of that. So I want you to help try and explain, if possible, the mentality or the mindset of the Nigerian policemen with regards protesting. Are they working with others from above, or do they just believe that once there is word of a protest, they should immediately get on the streets and arrest everybody who tries or dares to protest and fire tear gas to disperse every protest. What exactly is the mindset like of the Nigerian policeman? You know, in policing all over the world, including Jewish, Canada, Britain, and the rest of the world, I think they have what the public code of conducts that they need to address some civil issues, especially protests that is guaranteed by not only the constitution of each nation or each state, but it's guaranteed by the UN Convention. I believe ordinary cops in Nigeria needs to be trained. And if you look at their police college, particularly the one in the Kedah, you can't believe that it's a training school. So if you look at the structural view of the building, if you look at the quality of police that have gone through that institution, you'll find out that they are lacking what we call a civil training. They still need to be trained. After you join the service, you still need to go back to enhance your capacity on human rights, on how to treat protesters, on how to address civil issues. Some police in Nigeria, you'll find out that they address just ordinary men who are civil issues with life ammunition, firing tear gas because you feel that some people are coming to infiltrate protesters. Some people are coming to hijack protesters. That is not lawful. That is not right. You have to do your intelligence around their protest. Your intelligence, Gadrin would give you edge ahead of anything that you might foresee that is coming on board. But firing canisters, you know, that is harmful too. If you fire the canisters and it hits anybody's eyes or it hits anybody's in a very wrong place, that's another civil matter entirely that anybody that turns to be with, happens to be the victim, can approach the court. So our police in Nigeria needs to enhance their training capacity. They need to do more in terms of addressing civil matters. It's not all civil matters that you come to take care for the civil, you come with guns. Look at Britain, for instance. You see police in the city of London, Manchester or Liverpool, they move, you hardly see their pistol. They don't use AK-47. AK-47s are used by the military in the combat arena. So we believe that the ordinary Nigerian police is still lacking the rightful and civil training to address civil issues. So we call on Nigerian government and the president to please kindly look into the police service commission who is enshrined by the United Nations Constitution to train and retain and promote the Nigerian police. They need to go back to school, most of them, to enhance their civil and mental capacity to handle civil matters. I look at the one in Nogota. It was on cover, firing, manhandling protesters. These are not meeting the 21st century policing system. And this has been going for so long. Why we are in school? It happens. So you are protesting and the government thinks that what you are doing or you are going to load your image in public space. They tend to use the police as a tool to harass and intimidate the ordinary citizens. You know? So I believe that Nigerian police needs more training. More training. In fact, in times of training, they need more training. Mr. Ryan. Very, very quickly. Okay, right. We have our correspondent, Destiny Momo, on the field, one of the grounds that was said to be for protests this morning, June the 14th, Democracy Day, public holiday as well. So we now have Destiny Momo joining us from the Lucky Toget to give us live updates on what's happening there. Good morning, Destiny. Good morning, Aneta. All right. So the Lucky Toget, is that right? Yes, I'm at the Lucky Toget right now. What can you see around you? What's happening? Is there a protest going on there? Okay, I got to the venue at 7.15 this morning and I've been there till now. And because of the public holiday, you can see that scanty cars applying the road. And so now the policemen here earlier told me that they will not allow any protest to happen here at the Toget. And so far we've been here and we're not seeing any signs of intending protest. All right. Did you ask the policemen why? Is there a why they're not allowing any protest? Now they've not given me any reason why, but the LCC members are officials. They just told us that they are under surveillance. And they're saying that they do not want anything that happened the last time to happen again. But although they allowed people to protest or even report us to report yesterday because it was June 12th, democracy day. All right, Destiny. You've confirmed to us that there's no protest currently going on at the Lucky Toget and that movement there is sparse. So we'll definitely join you back much later to see if the situation of things at the Lucky Toget has changed. Thank you. All right, thank you so much. All right, Mr. Ibrahim, are you still on the line? Mr. Ibrahim? Okay, we'll try to connect with Mr. Ibrahim but we've seen updates there from the Lucky Toget. We know how it was last year, October 20th, 2020. All the allegations and reports of deaths or no deaths still in contention at the Lucky Toget. So we can understand, have a sense of just why the police might want to be there, heavily armed, guarding the Lucky Toget. But we still have more questions regarding why people are not allowed to protest if the protest is supposed to be peaceful. We still need to know why and also we'll be getting more feedback on the streets of Lagos from our correspondents in other parts of the state as well. But the question is about the legality of protest. If we're saying or quoting the UN Charter, the Nigerian constitution to say we do have a right to protest, then the question remains, why will police operatives or security men say people should not protest at certain places? You know that question is paramount. You know, if I agree with Mr. Ibrahim and that's what I'm gonna bring up, you know, glad that he's back. Mr. Ibrahim, welcome back. Thank you. Yeah, so I wanna go back to something that you had mentioned. You know, we just spoke with our correspondent who says she has spoken with some other policemen at the Lucky Toget and they are saying that they will not allow any form of protest in Hapun there. You know, you can draw in the sentiments of, you know, the fact that the Toget was destroyed sometime last year, you know, and some of all of that. But I'm going back to some of the things that you said that, you know, the- Can you hear me? Yeah, we can hear you. I can hear you. You can hear us. We thought, you know what, can you hear us? All right, well, we try to reconnect with him. The challenge that I have is, you know, he's saying that it is a lack of training and that's what, you know, the challenge is, you know, policemen need to be trained better to understand, you know, the rights of citizens and trained better to understand, you know, their role when there is a protest and you don't need to go in, you know, carrying assault weapons. So you think they know all of that? Then why are they not doing what they're supposed to do? The initial question that I asked was, you know, what is the mindset of the Andean policemen? Is it because they have orders from above to ensure that there is no form of protesting? And when I say above, I'm expecting that whoever it is that is above is properly trained and is well-learned, you know, you don't get to the rounds of commissioner of police or inspector general of police or ASP or DSP or whatever it is without having some form of education that makes you understand what the UN charter is and what the Nigerian constitution says. I think another question we need to ask is, you know, if we can all agree that police go through training because obviously they have training schools, is what type of training, you know, do they get? Because you ask an average Nigerian on the streets how they feel about police presence and you don't necessarily get a feel-good response. So the question is what type of training is, you know, we spoke to police PR in Imoset-Bala, El-Kana and it talked about the accusatory method where they accuse you, they don't presume you're innocent, you're accused of the crime and then proven innocent later on. So we need to find out what type of training that they get. Is it one that asks them to put up a defensive front and accuse the territorial front or one that, you know, is friendly to the people? If they say police is a friend, do Nigerians feel that a police is friendly to what's them? So it's the what, what type of the training? How are they trained? The content, the quality of the training that we need to be asked about. So it's the same way they say bail is free and you know it isn't. Police is your friend, you know, police not your friend. It is also from the foundation of the Nigerian police force, you know, which is where I believe that one of the challenges is, it seems like they're, you know, institutional of government that are set up to protect government. They're not set up to defend and to protect the people, you know, which they serve. They're set up to defend government and government's interests and people in government or whoever it is that is the highest bidder. And so whenever, you know, they, you know, are going about their daily activities, their mindset really is that they should do whatever it is to protect government and they are tools of the government and maybe those are some of the, you know, the challenges that we have with the training that you're mentioning. Okay. Mr. Ibrahim, welcome back and you hear us. Thank you. Sorry for the network. Yeah, that's fine. So I was asking, you know, with regards, you know, where this training that you, because you mentioned that maybe it's a problem of training of the Nigerian police, but the Nigerian police, of course, you would know doesn't act out of his own, you know, mindset. From orders, from wherever they're coming from, orders from whoever is in charge of that police department or whoever's in charge of the police in that state. So would you say that the Nigerian police itself, right from the top, is set up to always go against protesting? I will say that, and I will not be fair for me to say, but I will refer you back to a case between Mr. Femi Falano, representing our president in 20, in 20, I don't know, but I think it's 29, 22, 2009 or something. They arrived from the Abuja Federal High Court to the Court of Appeal. And the Court of Appeal affirmed that, one, no protestant, if you are a lawful protestant, you don't need any permission from the Nigerian police to protest. What they need to do is to give you protection to no police in Nigeria have the right to intimidate, harass, any lawful protestant. Lawful, I mean. So what I'm trying to say is that the hierarchy of police, you will not be fair for us to say that they give their subordinates command to intimidate to this. Seems we may have lost them again. But what some points he's mentioning there, makes me ask, is this? Yes, yes, Mr. Ibrahim, glad to have you back. Please go on. Apologies, we'll try to sub that out in a bit. So like I was saying, some points he raised there that are key for us to begin to ask questions about. He says the police, you shouldn't get permission or you shouldn't need permission to protest. Also, he mentioned that the police should be giving you protection, but the question is, is that really what we see on ground? Because we've heard cases, we've heard times when the police say, you need to get permission. And some other people say, oh, they actually got permission to protest. So who should it be writing to get permission for? The constitution say you need to get permission to protest or the constitution say it's a freedom. It's a right that you have. It's a right, you know. And if it's quoting the family file on our case and judgment, the court have said that you don't need to get permission from anybody to protest. Also, about when the protests eventually take place, he mentioned that the police should protect you, should be able to provide protection for the protesters. But is that what we see or do we see a protestors versus police? Yeah, you know, and it goes, takes me back to what I was saying initially, that it seems like the Nigerian police as an institution and the mentality that they have is that they are meant to protect government interests at all times, not protect citizens, not to serve and defend, of course, you know, the citizens at all times, you know, their role is to protect government interests. And so that's why you should not be seeking their permission to protest because if the government feels like the protest is going to give them, you know, bad reputation, then of course, they're not gonna grant you that permission. So the courts have clearly said that you don't need to get any permission to protest. You can't go out and protest. But if you're protesting in a situation where the police themselves feel like they always need to do whatever is possible to protect government interests, then they're always going to be against your protesting. There are videos from the Ansar's protest last year where police vehicles were used to carry, allegedly, used to carry thugs and carry people who were of course going to disrupt the other protest. There's videos, you know, in Lagos, of course, the Lagos government denounced all of that, you know, where a BRT boss was seen used to carry people who were, you know, on government side, allegedly on government side, exactly. So it's the same thing, you know, the Nigerian police, look at the way that they come out. If you remember the protest for the toll gate, you know, after the court ruling was given at the judicial panel, yes, look at the way that the Nigerian police were, you know, all out in the street, fully armed because they heard that there was gonna be a protest the next day. Why? Why are you carrying tear gas canisters? Why are you here, fully armed, looking like, you know, you're coming to fight bandits and killers and kidnappers? There are people who decided that they want to protest. Pretty much the same thing we've seen over the weekend. Why is the Nigerian police driving, you know, so recklessly and running and looking for people to arrest and dragging people like animals because they want to protest? And these are not people who have been violent. You've not seen any evidence of anybody being violent and anyone breaking the law. They are simply exercising their right to protest. So on the other hand, we're sorry, we also need to understand where the government is coming from, right? I understand that we have a right to protest, but when you look at it from the government perspective, you see that the history of protests in Nigeria seem to have been characterized by violence, whether by opposition protesters, whatever it is, whatever excuse it is, but we've seen cases that protests are not entirely exactly peaceful all the time. Somebody gets shot. Somebody, you know, they all... I'm coming, I'm coming. Remember what happened with Shoray? They all, he was shot by a tear gas canister. Oh, he wasn't shot this and that. So the police could be, or rather, the government stands against protests. Could just be to protect lives and property. That's another way to look at it. But that's not the way you do it. So you stand there to protect protesters. We're going to be linking up with our correspondent, Jota, in a bit. You're present there to protect protesters from whatever reprisals. We see these things in other countries. Why are we acting like we don't? We see how the UK police comes out when there is a protest. There might be two different sides and two different protesters on opposite sides of the street, but you would see that the police is there to ensure that they maintain law and order. They are not there to immediately start beating everybody up and saying, go home, no protest, regardless of who it says you're on. Another question I need to ask Osaoie, we're talking about celebrating democracy day and all the ideals of democracy. The day that was celebrated in Nigeria as the day 1993, June 12th, that Nigeria experienced her first and first elections. Do we think that it's on such a holiday that Nigerians should be protesting against the government? Just the question we need to ask. So it's pretty much the same question that we asked during the answers protest. Not now. Do it later. When Jusun also was about going to strike the NBA, said, oh, maybe it's not the right time. Is there a specific time that is right? Would you say, oh, let's not do it this week, let's do it next week, or let's do it in May? There's no specific time. If the people, the people feel aggrieved, feel angered, feel unfair, unfairly treated, feel like they need to express themselves at any point in time, they have the right. And that's what the constitution says. That's what the UN chapter says. They have the right to express themselves at that moment. Let's connect with our correspondents, Jota this morning, Jacinta Obiku. Good morning, can you hear us? Okay, we'll try to get with Jacinta in just a bit. But the videos you're seeing on your screen is, or Jota, this morning. And basically shows relatively peaceful environment. You can see Lager State workers there sweeping the roads. It doesn't look violent. People just going about their daily business. Of course, traffic is not as much as it's used to because it's a public holiday, lots of people are resting at home. We can see police van packed there on the roads, police officers sitting down, nobody's pacing, nobody's carrying any guns. So it seems, just as it is in the... As peaceful as it can be. Yes, just as we saw in the Lekitoget area, it is a peaceful environment here at the Ghanifarimi Park in Ojota. A total, total departure from what we saw over the weekend on Saturday, where we saw people on the roads protesting, tear gas canisters here and there. We even had gunshots. All right, so yes, we'll try to reconnect with Jacinta there. But as we can see so far, in the place that seemed like a hotspot over the weekend, Ojota for one seems relatively peaceful today this morning. There's something that we've repeatedly said here on this platform with people that we've interviewed, security experts, and that is the importance of intelligence with regard to security. We cannot carry out security work and we cannot continue to act like we can only use force. Force cannot be the only approach with regard to security. There has to be intelligence. And so the Nigerian police needs to be able to develop itself to a place where they know when there will be a protest and when there will not be a protest. Protests don't just spring up. Nobody... People plan these things. Exactly. You would see and they would plan these things. Yes, there are those ones that may just happen out of nowhere, but let's not throw away the importance of intelligence. If the police is feeling that there's going to be a counter protest and might go and turn violent, they should be intelligent enough to know where these counter protests are coming from or who might be sponsoring the violence. Good morning. Welcome back, Mr. Ibrahim. Can you hear us? All right, so we've tried to of course do our own quick analysis on some of all these issues. Go ahead, I was asking earlier about where this mindset seems to be coming from. And I suggested earlier that it might be because the Nigerian police seems to be or seems to believe that it is set up to protect government interest and anything that seems to be against government interest needs to be crushed. Is that also likely where these challenges are coming from? You know, our life was to balance the thought about government-Muslim protesters. If you look at the Arab Spring, you know, it started like just a protest for some on welcoming policy of government. But it turned out that most of the protesters in the Arab Spring were hijacked. And, you know, giving up, leading to the, you know, uprising and, you know, overtaking of government. So what's happened in Nigeria, in Lekitougi as well, turned out to be one of the worst and very heaviest protests in the history of this country. The whole must, you know, submerge the lawful authority in the land. Investment that was cut, that was destroyed on this stream was almost about nine billion for Lagos State alone. Not to talk about other states of the federation. So the police naturally will be on a red alert. If such a protest is coming, not necessarily mean that the government will tell them what to do. But they will naturally have the right, lawful right to protect, you know, the civil authority and protect the public property as well. So I believe these are, you know, combination of two, you know, approach that the police are using. However, the police still have the right to protect public property. If you are protesting and another person is not protesting, that person has the right for free movement. He has the right to go to do his business, or our business, you know, most of the protesters who are sponsored by, you know, some state actors who hijacked the public space perpetrate so a lot of, you know, destructive tendency or heart. And at the end of the day, the police will take the blame. So I see the reason why police is being, you know, unnecessarily agitated. But our advice, most of the protesters, you can display and protest in a little bit. In a full manner, you don't have to destroy against the civil authority. For instance, I watch as just unhacked up. I can say that anytime, any day, it's just unhacked up. You know, if police are saying that please and please not fully approaching you to leave a space, that place has been, you know, cornered. You don't have to go there and rest on the fence where police is instructing or telling you that this place is not safe. Okay. All right, Mr. Ibrahim, if you can hold on, we have our correspondence on the line. She's joining us from Ojata. Good morning, Jacinta Obiku. Jacinta, can you hear me? Jacinta Obiku, can you? Sadly, we lost her. We would get her back on the line. We apologize for that. But really, this is a conversation that must be had because June 12th is a very symbolic day. These are issues we need to address now because, you know, look at the future. Next year, what would June 12th day be like? What would democracy be like? Is this what we're going to see every year now? Is this going to be an annual thing? So we need to really address these issues. I feel the government needs to actually address these issues so that it can be laid to rest and put to bed once and for all so that we don't have a day set aside in the country that becomes a day of protest, you know? So Jacinta, do we have you now? Yes. Yes, good morning. Thank you for joining us. So let us know what the situation is like where you are in Ojata. Okay, so we've been here for seven and we tell no protest is going on. Yes. But we can see the presence of the Nigeria police. We are here confirming how peaceful here is for now. You can see the usual atmosphere of public holiday. That's what we are sitting here for now. All right, have you been able to speak with any of the policemen on ground there? Yes, we spoke to them to know whether there will be a protest for, for, it is fairly specific. They just said it's peaceful here, nothing is going on. Just let me be known that nothing is going on. No, just normal, normal atmosphere normal atmosphere for every holiday. Okay. All right, good to, you know, see how peaceful Ojata is this morning. And thanks for, of course, sharing with us. Would connect with you, of course, sometime again during the day and see if things change. Thanks very much, Jacinta. Thank you. Okay. All right. So I think it's great to know that Lago seems pretty calm today. We hope it's the same way in other parts of the country in other states, because we saw what happened in Abuja. The tear gas kind of says that we're fired. It's just terrible. This protest is calling out the government for bad governance and all of that. But lots of injuries, lots of arrests. Activists just demonstrating against the current administration. Well, good to see that today is relatively peaceful and calm. And we hope it stays the same way. We won't want any more casualties on the side of Nigerians. That means that both sides need to understand the roles that they should play, both the protesters and the police and law enforcement agencies. Yes, I need to ask you, Mr. Ibrahim, thanks for still being here with us. If we're talking about protests, the right to protest, to say this is constitutionally guaranteed, we're quoting the UN Charter. But when we come to Nigeria and the practicability of this protest in Nigeria, it seems very different. So, looking at the Nigerian setting, is there any acceptable form of protest in this country? You know, the mood of the country, the policy of the government determines, you know, the form and shape of the protest. You know, you can see different groups protesting, requesting for different, you know, public policy that needs to be changed. Some can be, the foreign currency dollar is very high. Some can say the fuel is very expensive. Some can say, okay, we need more infrastructure. Some can say, okay, police brutality, you know, you can actually determine the mood and shape of the protest. It depends on the, you know, citizen policy of the government shape out different form of government, different form of protest. If you look at in those states on Saturday, some people are demanding for, you know, agricultural support, food, ageless in food and the rest of them. In Abuja, some are saying Guwali must go. I don't know why they are saying the reason why they want Guwali to go. If you want somebody to go, you must have a reason why you want the person to go. In Lagos, some are saying, you know, different agenda, different, you know. So that's why I said it depends on the mood of the protestor. So you can actually throw it down to one particular view because of course you have, you know, things that you are agitating for, I will have my own. But of course there has to be a central correlation, you know, few weeks ago, my good example, Mr. Femi Falano was at the Lagos House of Assembly, you know, presenting official letter demanding for some certain level of, you know, requests from the government. And like what the commissioner of police, Mr. Akim Udumosuditse said, he said Mr. Femi did take approval, he notify him, he notify him. And he has done the writing, he provide them, you know, security for him to move from Ekeja to Lagos State House of Assembly, which I believe that's the right thing to do. Like I did say, like I did mention, it's not necessarily mean that you have to go to police and seek approval and write application. You can notify them, just on the phone call and what they need to do, guaranteed by the constitution, is for them to ask him for time and location so they can provide the necessary security measure or require security and details to protect the protesters. So I think this is necessary for also, you can't tell me what the mood of the protest would be. In your state, that might be another thing they are demanding for. In KB state, it might be another thing. In Kano, it might be another thing. So who determines how the protest will look like. But I believe the well-ordinated protest so far, in this new millennium, in the last two weeks, I think it's well protected and it's well arranged. Okay, so just like you said, the protest is not coordinated because different states, different groups demanding different things. So what then can the June 12th protest achieve since there's really no focus among the different groups in different states? Or is it just all in vain? You know, if you look at, let's say 15 years ago, 20 years ago, you will notice that there is the deformed June 12th correlation led by the late chief, Antonia Enaro, Dr. Bekorra Sokuti. I commented on you, who happens to be a friend and a brother, also was a secretary. Ayua Diwali. If you look at Prunaku, other civil society group who believes in June 12th. Now, let me tell you something. So far. Okay, we apologize for that network glitch there again. Hopefully we can get Mr. Ibrahim to finish up his thoughts on that one before we delve into our next conversation. I'm still talking about governance, you know, this time around about federalism, but really, you know, like we're saying, it's a constitutional right to protest. It's just how it's done and the response of the government and security operatives that makes the difference, isn't it? You know, there needs to be also, you know, some level of clarity, you know, with regards notifying the police and seeking permission to protest. Like I said before, you know, the Nigerian police seems to believe that it is there strictly to protect government interest. And so, regardless of how you send a message, if you send it with hot smileys or you send it with, you know, with the angry smiley, if they feel, you know, like that your protest is not going to be in government's interest or might be in government bad luck, then you may not be granted that permission to protest. I don't know what the clarity needs to be on. Well, you know, do I notify the police or do I, you know, ask for permission to protest? And what that notification simply means, I believe, is sending a message across to say that there would be protests at this time, regardless of whether the police is giving you permission or not. I believe that's what it means. But there's so much, you know, that also needs to be understood. He has made mention of civil society groups that had, of course, a champion during 12 protests many, many years ago, 15, 20 years ago, in the 90s and even further down. I don't think that in today's Nigeria, there is these protests, you know, that we are seeing have been led by civil society organizations or civil society groups. The NSAS wasn't led by any civil society groups. The civil society groups in Oshun State actually led protests. Even though we know that most of this is by individuals. Right? Well, I'm talking generally on June 12th protests today. Yes, June 12 protests. It's not been led by, the ones that happened here in Lagos weren't led by any CSOs. The ones that happened during the NSAS protests weren't led by any CSOs, you know, led by Nigerians and, you know, young people who felt like they needed, they had a point to make. Oshun Owari, Brian, I think we would have to wrap up here. Thank you very much. We apologize for the poor network that we had this morning, but thanks for joining us and for sharing your views with us. Thank you. You're welcome. All right. You know, and of course, it's just to once again remind, you know, that the conversation concerning policing and protesting should never, you know, should always, you know, be an opportunity to remind the police that intelligence is very, very important with regards to protesting. Whether you get that message or that notification about a protest or not, it's still to, you know, the responsibility of police to know, at least to a large extent, where protest is coming from, if there's going to be a counter-protest and know what roles that they should play, you know, on both sides. Yes, other people have the right to freedom and have the right to say, okay, we don't agree with this protest and we will stand on this other side. They have that right also, but the police should be able to know what both sides are saying, know where both sides are coming from, know who is behind both sides and be able to maintain law and order. That's their responsibility. Yes. They're not meant to simply say no protesting whatsoever because there's going to be violence, no protest whatsoever because remember what happened, you know, last year, you know, October and the way of saying no protest whatsoever is to fire tear gas at anybody that they see and pick up anybody and slap left and right and put people into Black Marais and all of that. It's a terrible thing that we're seeing and it should not be that way. We'll go on a short break when we come back. The conversation on true federalism and what federalism truly means and the federalism that we on endurance are asking for is what we're getting into next. Stay with us here on The Brightest.