 Thank you very much I'm delighted to be here at the at the Naval War College and This is a very difficult subject to Wrap up in a short period of time, but I'm going to do my best I have my wife and timekeeper over there. I'm going to talk for a half an hour and When I go over that I always go over She's going to signal me and then I'm going to spend the rest of time answering your questions and receiving applause and stuff No, nobody nobody disagrees a thing Anyway, the title of this book is revolution on the Hudson, New York City and the Hudson River Valley in the American War of Independence But the book itself is about the entire war because In my estimation the Hudson influenced the entire war the war hinged on on the Hudson just as general Washington thought it would just as King George thought it would one thing that the British and the Americans agreed on was that the Hudson was the key to The war and I I'm going to start by by pointing to the two key battles of the war one Saratoga Which there were really two battles of at Saratoga the last one was October 7 1777 and The second battle is the battle of Yorktown, which are also familiar with and that was October 19 1781 Now it's it's obvious that the battle of Saratoga Is part it has to be part of the story if it's about if it's about the Hudson and the American Revolution It's not so obvious that Yorktown is also linked To the Hudson very substantially, so I'm going to try to make out the case that The British obsession with the with the Hudson River Valley Played a key role in their losing Yorktown So my book it won't be released until June 14 I'm waiting for my critics because this is a new way of looking at the war and there's a lot of guys out there Who who study and write about the war so we'll see what they have to say about this Landish point that I I am making Okay, so let me go back and explain why The Hudson was so important New York City and Hudson was so important. It's because it was the start of a Land sea corridor from from New York to Canada and when the British war planners In London we're looking at the map. They said they thought well, we just cut off the colonies The northern colonies in New England from the south and we've won the war because the the most radical part of The revolution the radicals are concentrated in New England. So if we can create a Sort of barrier From New York City up to Quebec Then we will have we will have won the war and this is going to be easy to do because we already control Canada We already have the the Royal Navy and so the plan was the the the war plan Was to to Have two armies One one coming from New York in the south Up to Albany and one coming down from Canada to meet at Albany so they these two armies were going to meet at Albany and This miraculously was going to cut off New England From from the colonies to the south which were not so rapidly Anti-British as as the New Englanders were and this would end the end the revolution Simultaneously with the with the meeting of these two armies the British Navy would have imposed a tight blockade along the Along the New England coast and really seal off New England. This was there. This was their vision Now interestingly enough All of the policy makers in Britain and all of the policy makers in the United States thought this was true That the British could do this and it would indeed Win the war Not only that Every historian writing about the war and they began writing about it almost almost when it was When it was finished Till this present day have thought that yeah if the British were able to do that they would have won the war One of the people who was most most influential influential in agreeing with this was our own Admiral Mahan who in his In his thinking simply agreed with with everybody else so In my book, I'm saying that this was never possible was never possible for the British to to do this for lots of reasons but Primarily because there was no political dimension to their strategy And New York was divided politically the the Counties around New York were pro-British not a hundred percent, but Majority of the people Were pro-British stat Staten Island was probably 90 percent British Westchester County was probably half half So Once you went north of Westchester County these counties were very similar in their political thinking to to New England and so the strength of of the Defenders let's say was going to come from these anti-British colonies just as they had at Lexington and Concord and in large numbers So if we come to the Battle of Saratoga for instance What defeated Burgoyne the British the British general Was the fact that the whole countryside was up in arms against him and that hundreds then thousands of militiamen were Were turning out to make become join the American army The American army at Saratoga When the decisive battle was fought was 15,000 Burgoyne's army had dwindled to around six thousand these these numbers of More or less, okay, we never have any exact figures on on these any Anyway, don't that's a separate subject of mine, but anyway be skeptical of all historical numbers But anyway, this is roughly what it was and Burgoyne wrote back to to London He said I don't have any support here. We were looking for some for loyalists to join my army They never appeared, but the Americans appeared appear by the thousands. He said this is Burgoyne This is the British general. This is why he thought he got defeated and this is why he He did get defeated so What was missing from British strategy was was it was there was no political element to it They thought they could they could Take over this area and defeat the Americans with military force alone It was too big a territory There were too many of us And in addition they wanted to do it on the cheap. They never wanted to commit the forces necessary To accomplish What what I don't think they would have ever accomplished they could never have defeated us with just an army and Navy alone with no With no political dimension Okay, I Want to fast forward to Yorktown and I'll fill in between if you want but Yorktown is October 19 1781. How is This book a flawed British strategy connected with Yorktown to me Yorktown had two key elements one was a naval battle September 5 1781 off the Chesapeake Caves the other was a land a land battle and That was the final one October October 19 now the British lost the The naval battle to the French on September 5 and I Believe the reason they lost the battle is because they didn't have their best Best admiral who was George Romney in charge of the fleet? Where was Rodney? Rodney of course was in Bath What was he doing in Bath having a good time? What else do they do? I mean not Bath, Maine, but Bath You wonder if you understand Rodney Rodney the previous year Had been in in New York And I will come back to if you want why I thought Rodney would have won the battle off the capes of Chesapeake capes against the against the French, but Why wasn't he there? He should have been there because he was At that moment he was head of the British fleet in America and the West Indies both was a combined It was a combined command In 1780 he had been in New York in September of 1780 He he just appeared in New York with ten with ten Ships of the line They weren't expecting him, but it gave the British then unexpectedly a Overwhelming force right in New York right then and guess what was happening then General Arnold was turning over West Point right then So Rodney arrived just as Arnold was about to About to turn over West Point and General Clinton who was the head of the British Army in North America had courted in in New York Now good old General Clinton was a Difficult man to to get along with I'm not going to call him a no difficult He had to work with another Admiral His at his naval counterpart called Abarth not and if Clinton was difficult to get along with you never met Abarth not The two of them hated each other terribly So here here Clinton is Wondering what the hell is going to happen When Arnold turns over West Point and he cannot get his troops from New York up the river Because Abarth not isn't cooperating. How do you like that? And that was a that was what was going to happen Until Rodney showed up and when Rodney showed up it saved Clinton. It was going to make the whole turnover of West Point Possible now for for Clinton Rodney had no idea any of this was was in the works And when he landed He was overjoyed to find out all of this stuff that was happening because he was now going to win the whole war of independence He he was going to win the war He he thought that he thought That the old British strategy of cutting off New England was absolutely the right thing to do Clinton Thought so too and they thought if they captured West Point They would then control all of the Hudson and somehow or other miraculously they would control The whole Lansing corridor all the way up to Canada. Okay Rodney bought that completely All right, and he's all set to go I mean he's he's all pumped up and they have the Troops and everything and Arnold's ready, and you know how capable Arnold was. I know I know was very capable so Arnold you you know that Arnold got captured or not being Arnold got discovered, but Washington couldn't catch Arnold. I don't go back to New York. So This is in September now of 1780 when Arnold gets back to New York What's the first thing he wants to do this a guy is a great political operator, Arnold He wants to make friends with Rodney And he wants to make friends with with Clinton which he does very quickly Rodney falls in love with Rodney loves Arnold So Rodney says okay. Well, let's go. Nothing has changed Let's go and attack West Point and we will win the war Seemed seem reasonable and Clinton himself Had been advocating this for a very long time and then all of a sudden Clinton Says no, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna go ahead This the whole business is is ruined Washington's going to be Be able to have enough strength there to foil us. So Clinton stops this whole operation that Rodney thinks would have would have won the war because he he was totally It's a believe a believer in the old strategy of cutting off New England, okay Let's go back to Yorktown now. Okay, because Rodney goes back to West to the to the West Indies Very very mad and angry writes a lot of letters to to to London Saying you got to get rid of Clinton. You got to get rid of Abbot than off get some better leaders there Okay, so now Yorktown is only the next year and Rodney Is thinking that that the British fleet in the West Indies has got to come up to the Atlantic coast again just like he did the previous year and and They believe that the way things have Configured that there's going to be a showdown finally with the French in 1781 it's either going to be in the Chesapeake or In New York and Rodney should be leading the British Fleet, okay Rodney decides he doesn't want any part of this Okay, he's not coming. He's not coming. So he creates a what I think is a phony excuse and And is allowed by the Admiralty to go home and he leaves command Which results in leaving command of the of the British fleet in America to a Guy who under the circumstances really cannot defeat the French He just is doesn't have the ability to and he doesn't and the British lose The battle off the Virginia capes which result in the loss of of Yorktown Rodney himself when he reads about what this what his replacement Did at the battle in September 5 is Furious, I wouldn't have done this. I would have done it differently and so on and so on and he would have his his he in my estimation would have Defeated the the French Admiral and the whole war would have would have gone differently, so one they didn't get mixed up with all of this He went home. Why because he had bought that the whole mythology of the of the Hudson River Valley that the British had That if they took West Point, they'd win the war. They control the Valley. They control the corridor to Canada Which in my estimation is an illusion. So this is the connection I make I make between Saratoga and Yorktown So there So I I how we doing on the time fine, okay What time is it actually? 1220, okay, let me let me just a little bit more on on the wall. I in this book. I start really in 1776 I Also go back and and have something to say about 7775 to so the book and I I have something to say about what happened after Yorktown so the book is a book about the whole a whole war, but the British The British learned the lesson in 1775 and 1775 they got their tail whipped as you know in a number of battles Lexington and Concord was was just the beginning the reason they did is they didn't commit enough troops they always thought they were going to Defeat the the American Patriots on the cheap To begin with Lexington and Concord they had less than 4,000 troops in in Boston and half of them had to be used to keep the people in Boston down So they had they had like 2,000 troops. They were sending into a countryside that that turned out 20,000 militiamen, okay So they they the king learned his lesson he thought in 1776 and he committed 32,000 to the invasion of New York, which began in August of 1776 and the Canadian army that was coming down from Canada was 10,000 there's 42,000 General Amherst who had who would won the French and Indian War for the British here thought you needed at least 75,000 I Don't think 75,000 was enough Benjamin Franklin thought well more than that But anyway, it turned out that the getting together the 42,000 10 from the north 32,000 from the south it Just wasn't going to do it and and the the two the two commanders British commanders in New York recognized this Admiral Admiral how the the Navy chief and General how who was the the army chief they originally thought that yeah This number will be enough. They weren't enough the fleet wasn't big enough either so But as they got into it they could see that that this was this was they were was woefully inadequate so at the end of 17 1776 General how sent sent home a new plan a new strategy for 1777 1777 He thought that he now knew how to win the war I mean, you know the in those days you didn't fight in in the winter time and besides which he'd like to have a good time in New York which he did and and so he he came back out in to do battle in in the spring of 1777 but the king was having no pot of Of of increasing the army anywhere near the extent that how believed he needed and I think how was how was right and the The first sea lord the guy who ran the ran the Navy for the British He he thought that the fleet was just fine the way it was And they they they didn't need anymore and so The whole operation in 1777 which was a replay of 1776 for the British failed guess who the king blamed Not the strategy he blamed the general and the admiral and He blamed the people carrying it out not not his his vision so So Far as the strategy this strategy is concerned it's sort of it sort of put On the side because the French came into the war because of Sarah the victory at Savitoa in 1777 the French come into the war and and so it becomes a world war and so the strategy Changes nonetheless There's all these people including Clinton and then later Rodney who still are saying if we only Carried out the old the old strategy. He never disappeared. It wasn't wasn't it wasn't still had a Lived on they thought if it only we had gotten to Albany can you imagine getting to Albany? What anyway? So once the French come in it makes it possible for for the United States to actually defeat the British which because of their own internal feuding was accomplished that at Yorktown if you knew if you knew the the American army and what What it had deteriorated into by 1781 You we would wonder how could we possibly Carry on without the French where we couldn't And the British the British simply if they had stayed here and waited us out would have we would have Would have Well, I can't say won the war because the war would have stopped And there would have been a negotiation between the French and the British and Lord knows how that would have would have turned out but if If the British divided the territory somehow rather with the French Whatever Britain controlled sooner or later later on they were going to make the same mistakes that had brought about Lexington and Conkin And the whole thing was going to start up again Finally George Washington I've studied George Washington for a very long time and He in my estimation was one of the greatest Leaders in world history if you asked me to name the six most important figures in world history He'd be one of them if you if you examine what he did up close during the revolution all this time Not to mention what he did afterwards, but just just that holding all of this together I mean he was holding it together He was amazing and He was a great writer. He'd written so many letters That he had developed a great facility With the language and hit all of his correspondence During the war boils down to ten ten volumes We've had three versions of them. I have the first one that was published in the 1840s And I've read them on astonished at what a great great writer he He was and his wife I want to kill If this if there's anyone I want to Dig up and shoot again. It's her because Because naturally he wrote wonderful letters to her and they were a wonderful couple You know and she's joined him every every year in the winter time and in the most awful Circumstances in the battlefield She then goes and burns all of the letters Every blessed one of them except for two and the two of them are fantastic. So She I'm gonna get I Don't know how All right, so I'll stop there and answer answer and then questions you have See no questions that answered all the questions. Do you address the various battles around the New York area? Yeah, many and they lost them all. I mean I do I go through I go through every battle yes, but Doesn't have nothing original That I have to say about those battles. I hope I'm accurate, but there are guys who have studied them in great detail And if you want to know specific battles My my summary might be a refresher course for you I Have spent Really over 20 years studying this Business, I'm a grind and so I think I have a very good summary, but That's what it is. Okay, like the Battle of Brooklyn Which is one of the great battles of our of our history which we Which we lost I described that but there are the many other people who describe it in in greater detail One of the things that I emphasize in the book is Prisoners how the British treated American prisoners and I have a I have a nice section in In the Battle of Brooklyn about what they did with those prisoners, but there are other books Not too many about the prisoners. We're so close to the British That we don't like to think about what they did to our prisoners and what they did was a war crime There were 30,000 American prisoners and they killed half of them And there's mean there's no blinking it, you know, this is this tap in Washington was after them to stop it right from the beginning Letter after letter it didn't it didn't have any effect John Adams. You name it so I have I have attached that to every every battle What happened to the prisoners? Yeah, if you say that we're going down there was both the tactical and strategic mistake both are losing and For strategic they bring the friendship What would you have done with those 8,000 troops? I do If you don't think the Hudson was a value, what would you have done those 8,000 troops? I would have brought him home I would have I would have I would have brought all the troops home In 1775 They had 4,000 troops in Boston, I would have brought those 4,000 troops home One of the great English states and William Pitt who who ran Who ran the French and Indian War in England and won the French and Indian War when When the time came crunch time came in 1775 when the government was making up its mind About whether or not they were not going to negotiate with the Americans or they were going to go for for force of military military option He said he said to the king take the troops out of Boston and talk with them The the issues can be resolved If you go to fighting It's going to be very iffy. There were a lot of them They know how to fight they fought well during the French and Indian War despite what your What your British officers? Will tell you they're not afraid of your troops and there's just you know There's tens of thousands. I mean how many Americans would turn out so that was his advice and it was good advice And and we never would have had that and then we would have had a British America happily the the people Who fought the British at Lexington Concord? Okay, those those guys and women the women were a big part of that story They had the highest standard of living in the world Okay, of any ordinary people in in the whole world They did not want to fight. They were living quite well It would it would have been very easy to negotiate with their Continental Congress, which they With which they produced this was a war that never should have been fought. There are wars like that as You know, we won't get into that but but So that's not what you wanted to hear I Here's what here's what here's what Burgoyne thought Burgoyne thought that he would get to Albany quickly He thought that he That all these loyalists these this mythical Army of loyalists would come to join him He might get together 15 even 20,000 troops himself, you know without reference to the army coming up from New York He'd base himself in Albany He'd have plenty to eat there and he would take that army and march into Massachusetts and Connecticut. There would be loyalists that would join him and he would win the war on his own and He thought in 1777 That by Christmastime anyway that he would be the victor and the great they you know He would be the the Nelson and the Wellington and so on the great hero of That's that's that's what he he thought I think that was a pipe dream Can you imagine if he took these people into? Massachusetts and you had the farmers coming out again and from Connecticut and then the farmers from New York and all the all the All of them north of Westchester County and how big though that army would be he'd be fighting for a while there Yeah You know on the first question, so it sounds like when you if I followed what you said you're suggesting that Although this a central premise of your book is that The misguided strategy of control of the Hudson would lead to winning the war Was it was a fallacy? I think you're applying perhaps That there wasn't a better alternative strategy that would have worked But but in fact the waging of war in the first place was the wrong tool to achieve the political objectives They wanted that about absolutely. That's a William Pitt thought and Who could disagree with William Pitt? Yeah, it's not it's it's it's it's hard to think of that, you know in all the waste on both sides and It's like brothers fighting it was some people called a cousin's war and so on So it's hard to think that it was on just unnecessary. You would stupid leadership, but Problem of course is that loyalist pay taxes to the king for the king to hire an army to protect them You're not gonna volunteer to go out and fight after they pay taxes. Exactly. Exactly. That's a very good point They the British found out All over in the south same thing, you know, what do you mean we got a fight for you? What do we have you for Question was I was wondering if you had looked forward to the war of 1812 and the same strategy that the British looked at during the war of 1812 well, I I Wrote a book on the war of 1812. You've got to get that book. It's just Well, that was that was four years ago and and even even John Hattendorf stayed awake for that Sorry, you never know I hate to get off in the war of 1812, but but the the the British it seemed, you know emotionally Were mad at us. We they never got over the war of independence and The the war of 1812 almost seemed inevitable at some at some point But their whole their whole inability to respect us militarily Which was very evident in 1774 and 1775 strangely continued on Up to the up to 1812. I mean all the things that they did to us Leading up to the war to make us angry enough to actually the clear war on On them was was an outgrowth of the fact that they didn't they didn't respect us militarily well We had been debating ourselves whether or not to even have a Navy For all of this time our Navy and in the in the Revolutionary War had done very poorly There was no Navy after the Revolutionary War until 1794 And then there was a great debate in this country about whether or not we ought to even have a Navy and the the irritation with the British was primarily on the on the water, so They didn't respect us because we couldn't make up our mind did we want a strong Navy did we want a strong army or not, you know because a lot of our political thinkers thought that Having a strong military would be dangerous It would it would you know some man on horseback would become a become a dictator So the war of 1812 surprised them that we did so well particularly on the water even with the minuscule Navy we had and the British leadership of that time The Prime Minister was Liverpool and the Foreign Minister was castle raid They were they felt Towards the Americans as everybody else did they had no respect for them militarily, but during the war During the war and I can mention a number of places where the Americans unexpectedly won, but New Orleans is a good example Castle ray Said That you know If we don't make a real peace with these people We're going to be fighting them for the next hundred years. I just think of it the whole border with Canada We're going to be this you know, you can how about the southern Border how about the sea and so on all these all these things so he he got Liverpool Liverpool wasn't was He should he should have been running today He was a kind of politician who knew exactly what button to push to get public support. So He got he got Liverpool to Support a total revolution in British policy towards the United States at the end of the war of 1812 and from there then on They treated us with respect and guess what James Madison who was the president and Who had been one of the people back in 1794 who did not want a Navy and wanted a very small Army He had changed his mind too. He thought if we don't have respectable force Look, what's going to happen to us? Okay. He thought we need a respectable force in order to protect the Constitution It wouldn't be a it wouldn't be a threat to it. So the American military for the first in time Well, anyway, the American military was not disbanded at the end of the war And certainly not the Navy We he who kept the Navy and that's really a lot of guys in the Navy Admiral Admiral granite who loved my book Thought that the War of 1812 was enormously important in the history of the Navy because of Our country finally agreed. We need to strong Navy That's that's pretty long-winded answer to a very simple question right now. I'm sorry Can you imagine being married to me? I mean she's already Yeah, so you're saying animal Rodney was committed to the strategy Yeah, and he didn't know anything about it He didn't know anything about the United States, but he he bought that whole thing and you know who was encouraging him Arnold Arnold when I'll get to New York. He made a point of getting close to Rodney and Ronnie Rodney fell in love with him literally and Arnold convinced him that this whole strategy Would would work So he was committed to the strategy, but he still didn't want to have anything to do with engaging the French fleet well, no, he wanted to engage the French fleet, but he didn't want to do it personally because He'd be working with Clinton Clinton was the guy in 1780 Who who stopped him from taking West Point Rodney thought that he and Arnold would easily take They had the troops there they had them on the transports, you know The the Americans were discombobulated by what happened with with Arnold. I know was a great general He was a He was a guy who I mean he was a strange character in love. I was I would say in love with money More than anything else, but he was he was a very very good military Leader and Rodney had a lot of respect for him Rodney himself was one of the greatest fighters ever So yeah, they would have probably taken West Point. I don't thought I would have taken about 10 days And then what would happen? You know Beyond that what happens well gets a little fuzzy, but West Point they thought that was the they really thought that once they took West Point Washington would just give up that was that was the hope. Yes, sir Were there some historical cases that they were thinking about them that made this so compelling an idea They were they looking back in history whether it was back to classical Period. Oh, no, no, no, no law knows what they were looking at I I can't answer that question it it the distance between New York City and Albany and then distance between Albany and Montreal and So on and so on and the size of the the Royal Navy And one of the great greatest naval leaders was Admiral Lord Howe Who was the fleet commander? Here at that time he he he didn't say so publicly, but he He thought he thought that whole strategy was foolish, you know, he never he never wrote about it So this is just a supposition of mine, but he wasn't surprised at any of this Had happened They let him go. It was a really odd thing. They're really the best admiral Nelson called how the best Admiral they ever had Nelson and and the the the first the first sea law the head of the The Navy sandwich didn't like how Okay, he didn't like him how for a lot of reasons But he made life difficult for how And how how went went back home And said my sandwich was very happy to have him Go back home in in the fall of 1778. Okay, if how had been kept on He probably would have won. He'd be he he would have been better Equipped than Rodney even to win the battle off of Chesapeake Chesapeake tapes the the the war leaders in London Were so smart They were happy to have how come back So but how was never in love with that strategy? No But if you asked me to give you evidence of this then I would Be too busy for you or something. I can't yeah, yes, ma'am What Lord how had when he first came in 1776 He had about 70 warships total, but they were common and going all the time You know, they're breaking down. You had to fix them and so on we had limited facilities here Halifax was Was very very limited in what it could do some of them often had to go back to back to to England 72 was not not near enough. I listed my book the things that the Admiralty tasked how to do with these 72 ships. It was ridiculous and At no time in the war did the British have more than 90 warships here and it just wasn't enough You know, it seemed to be enough You know, that's a lot of a lot of ships, but it just wasn't this is a big country It was two and a half million people 500,000 of those were slaves, but still that's two million people and the slaves as the war went on became part of our omnis Except for Places like South Carolina or South Carolina would never have slaves become part of the army, but the other the other colonies Would so the the the sheer size of the military to do what they wanted to do over here They just didn't want to come to to grips with that it's like Lyndon Johnson trying to think how many troops were actually needed What was actually needed to fight the war in Vietnam? I'm the Vietnam War era. Okay, don't get me going on that one That's another story, but it was it was similar that it shouldn't draw parallels like these historical parallels, but Johnson never ever wanted to face the Political consequences of having having the size of the military that he would have needed to do what he wanted to do Well, you guys must study the video study the Vietnam War here. Yeah, okay. Good. Yeah Focus on so much time Well my wife and I were in business for a long time she's an artist and I I was a college professor up until the age of up until the age of 40 when I was totally burned out and I went into her business and After 20 years of that I I decided I wanted to spend my time writing again when I was a professor. I'd published three books and I wanted to go back to it I got over being being burned out and she wanted to she got tired of the business and wanted to to Spend full time with her painting, but but I I knew that it was going to be a job It was nice to have some money in the bank, you know when you're a professor you're broke I mean what they pay you was mind-boggling Anyway, so we had the money and and so we that's what I did I studied I studied for years and years and years And then my first book came out in 2008 and I this is my fourth book My fifth book will be out at the end of next year will be on Lexington and Concord when I was a professor. I wrote three books One That my first book was on the Cold War and we sold a million copies a Million copies is a lot you know this this day and age for for New York publishers who are only interested in money I Shouldn't be so hash on them, but The benchmark for for a history book like I write is like ten thousand copies ten thousand They cover all expenses, and they'll cover your advance and so on a Million is you know David McCullough has sells a million no anyway So the publisher thought whoa, I'm gonna you know So the next book didn't do so well 75,000 we sold which is very very good. He still made plenty of money So he's going hot in the next book Was on World War one and he he printed this humongous number in anticipation of big sales He couldn't we couldn't give him away. I Mean literally literally couldn't give him away. No one was interested in those days in world when I know But anyway after that defeat I decided I didn't want to go that way had it come back Sorry But the the when I get into studying early American history the thing I noticed Right away was where's the Navy? Navy's not in it When they when historians think about those ships and all the things they have to learn about them They get stomach acid they they think they have to They think they have to learn a new language which they do and the Navy is not in these histories I mean, it's amazing and a little bit that is is is just you know, we would make you cry And so our kids grammar school all the way through Learning their history without the Navy in it So you wonder why people don't know about the Navy and don't appreciate all the things the Navy has done So I began to focus on the on the Navy and integrating the old story that we tell with the with the naval story but it's a It's an uphill battle Because the amount of ignorance about the Navy and of course It would make you cry how little is known about what how important the Navy's been since since to the world since World War two you know so anything we can do to to in the area of public awareness is is worth doing because So True and it's very dangerous that the people don't know how important the Navy is very dangerous because different things like budgets Now these people cutting budgets and so on You can cut the wrong place What do we got here all right five minutes anyone want to want to refute what I'm saying Not about the Navy and public relations that drives me crazy that subject Yeah, what was the influence of the common of Congress? Very similar to the Congress today it would drive you crazy The politicians politicians are politicians. They don't They don't change they they represent the areas where they come from And so far as the immoral character is concerned don't expect a high level of In that category they represent who they represent and they may think that the constituents Mistaken but you never know that you might hear it privately. There was a congressman who was a a friend of mine from Iowa named John Culver lady became a senator And John Culver was was in the House of Representatives He was a big proponent of foreign aid foreign aid was was Was always controversial, but One guy from I don't know. I will know what state I think it was Alabama One guy gave him a particularly hard time always in the house when the bill foreign aid bill came up This guy was 300 percent against foreign aid, but foreign aid would all would always pass nonetheless But foreign aid got progressively less popular. So each time it was voted the vote got closer So on this particular year, I forget the year The foreign aid bill came up and they were they were discussing it and the vote was about to Happen and this guy Mr. 300 percent against the foreign aid comes rushing up the Culver and says to him John it might not pass And and you know Culver who was about as cynical as the rest of us couldn't believe this one and He he loved to tell that that story. So anyway Congress back then is a mystery and it's a mystery too It's about as I understand about as much of it as I do current Congress The way we treated our military in those days, I have a little bit of it in the book You would not believe Okay, you just you just wouldn't believe how badly we treated and particularly our enlisted men And and this was all simply political You know, these were the kids who fought the war all the way through sacrificed everything And the way they treated Treat them well, they didn't pay them and all these these things. It's a it's a long awful story, you know, but So no, I don't think the I don't have any great admiration for the for the Congress and I place a huge Ephesus on on Washington And they always had Washington, you know who who would do the right thing But don't ask them to do the right thing Well, look at well Yes, anything else