 HBCU Dodgers radio welcome back to another edition of discussion on historically black colleges and universities today We are excited to talk sports a passion of mine and many of you guys out there From a renowned expert on HBCU athletics and the intersections of policymaking in the NCAA We are privileged to have today. Dr. Monique Oshetelou She's a senior policy analyst in the higher education division at the New America organization and she has a new report Just out last week on the NCAA's on how the NCAA's APR rating eliminates HBCUs from postseason competition The men's and women's national basketball tournaments also known as March Madness. So Doc we we are honored to have you on today Thank you so much Jerry. I'm so glad to be part of it. Thank you. Thank you. I've been looking forward to this all day All right, you give me a great honor saying that because so many people look forward to booing me or criticizing me on facebook Tell us more about this. Uh, this is um, this is groundbreaking in several ways one. It's not the first report you've done um, but this is a report that really delves into The the more than just the numbers that we see on ap r and how You know performance academically And not even academically sometimes it's just a matter of retention and Um graduation rates that that impacts this ap r But tell us more about this edition of your series of reports that you've done on hbc's and ap r ratings Sure. So if it's okay, jerry just for our listeners that are not really familiar with ap r Ap r is known as the academic progress rate, which is part of the NCAA's academic reform And basically it's a way to monitor the NCAA's way to monitor academic progress based on two indicators of retention Same of the same institution each subsequent semester and then academic eligibility which refers to maintaining Academic progress towards a degree each successive year And so based on that each athlete gets a point and then they have an ap r score And so the NCAA sets a standard of 9 30 to determine postseason eligibility and more specific to our context that we have right now March madness and so if you get a 9 30 you can um, you're able to be considered As a team to play in march madness. Um, but what I have seen in my research in more particular in this article, I kind of point out that the NCAA has disproportionately banned HBC use from participating in postseason competition where specifically march madness and so My report looked at 2010 tonight to 2019 and we're about 60 of those Teams those basketball teams that have been banned from march madness have been minority seven institutions With 75 of those minority seven institutions representing hbcu men's basketball teams and so I found that to be very problematic not only one For two reasons this problematic one It's discriminatory as we can see that ap r has disproportionately disadvantaged hbc use Which primarily serves students of color black students in particular and then it's an inaccurate tool like they're not very sure If this tool definitely is a means to improve graduation rates Or is as accurate in monitoring academic progress and so that's kind of what my article looked at I also cited another one of my publications in this article actually just a plug if it's okay Absolutely the publication that I cited in my article is actually Part of a policy series with famu And so it's part of famu's meek eaton center Where they have a part of their change in social policy that they have going on there And so this policy brief basically provided statistical evidence that shows that hbcu male teams are disproportionately less likely To achieve this 930 standard so hbcu's have a nine excuse me have a 63 probability of meeting it Compared to non hbcu's have a 99 probability of meeting the standard for post use and eligibility And this is this is just for all division one programs that includes all sports and so I looked at eight sports and so that's basketball that's football that's golf that's tennis that's track That's cross country um baseball so that's all of those eight sports Across all division one hbcu's are significantly less likely to meet it for men's fast for men's teams Excuse me. What makes that so scary is that there are only two division one historically black division one conferences So you're talking about, you know, no more than 20 24 teams um That that are accounting for seven more than 70 percent of the band I guess men's teams from post season eligibility Yeah, it's I mean your gut reaction to that is obviously, you know, your your research expertise in policy reform Based on the data that you get so right away like what do you what do you notice that's that would suggest? Hey, look ncda if you want to do better with this This is one or two things you need to do or these are one or two things you need to do right away to try to rectify this formula Right. I believe just just high level just speaking It's a need for there to be both race and resource conscious Policymaking so you can have uniform academic standards across these differentially resource and differentially mission institutions And so that needs to be off the bat something that needs to be addressed Um, and so if I can go into that a little bit more detail, what do I mean by that? Um, differentially resource. So for example historically Black institutions historically black colleges and universities have been underfunded Compared to your historically white institutions hwis and some people call them pwis um And so with that being an issue Uh, you expect them to meet this uniform standard, but they do not have the resources to To to get there. So another thing is with the resources is that um, when you look at it from a historical context, okay? So black institutions have historically were created as a sub Educational opportunity. Uh, they were never intended to produce doctors lawyers policymakers They were intended um to do more of the domestic work um to keep them busy Um, and so they started off as normal schools teaching um providing future teachers not that teacher is a sub profession or anything like that, but that is what black colleges were intended teachers preachers and farmers Exactly exactly. So with that being said what what I found and a lot of my historical work is that When the second morale act came around, uh, the money that was intended to go to hbc use quite interesting Actually went to historically white institutions and some of that money funded their elaborate football stadium so hbc use are already um At I guess below baseline when it comes to funding and so then when you uh speed up and fast forward to now in current context There is a huge wealth gap as far as institutional wealth And so they're expected to meet these academic reform policies off skeezy standards But they don't have traveling tutors like more comprehensive wealthy athletic programs that you see at predominantly white institutions They don't have the learning specialists at the same level Their academic advisors the ratio to student-athlete may be a lot larger compared to your more wealthier athletic Programs furthermore all 24 of the hbc use in division one They're all regarded as limited resource institutions What that means is that they are all regarded as the fifth the bottom 15 percent Of athletic budgets for all division one institutions So the aca is aware of these limited resources They're aware that they do not have as comprehensive academic support services to provide their student-athletes But yet they're still expected to meet this blanket uniform standard furthermore where I regard to race conscious is that this discrimination is not only funneled By financial resources, but there's also this racial stratification That these ncw bands have against predominantly hbc use and so I think that's problematic And for no other reason you should be able to see like we need to further investigate this Um, and then I guess I guess uh, you also asked what do I suggest? I suggested they use nondiscriminatory tools to be able to monitor academic progress and so A tool that they're already using is academic eligibility So just seeing how much progress towards the degree each student athlete is making each successive year That's real time that actual data Are they completing a certain percentage of their degree program by the end of their second year end of their third year End of the fourth year that can be measured And so that's accurate. We know that that is Getting to the end goal of graduation. So things like that needs to be considered not these standards that are both Resource heavy in order to meet these standards. Um, and that are Penalizing teams in a discriminatory racially discriminatory manner. So let's take it from the the other side of the equation And it's it's so interesting that you know, this conversation parallels What we're seeing going on with benning college and a lot of other hbc use with accreditation Because some of the conversation is starting to say well, how How biased are the rules or how? Little do the rules of accreditation account for low resource institutions and what that looks and feels like And the ncda policy making or policy enforcement bears a lot of that same Issue like, you know, you have rules for, you know, 300 plus division one teams But they they aren't really written with low resources in mind. And so to that point At the same token it there, you know, some hbc use are having problems with You know public funding some hbc's having problem with enrollment stability Some hbc's have challenges in in being able to adjust athletic fee rates for students. So You can't really Get a lot of extra revenue in if you don't have like the corporate support So how much would you say that those challenges which are independent of the policy making? Create a scenario where the policies Significantly and disparately impact black colleges, but If some would say not by design but just because this is what these schools go through Yeah, and I also think another piece to add to that is What is the mission of hbc use, right? So the missions of hbc uses tends to be different than your traditional historically white institution Hbc use attend to give individuals a second chance that may not be able to also hbc use were intended to offer an opportunity so Hbc use is proportionately taken a larger number of black students minority students a larger number of low-income students a larger number of first-generation students and A larger number of quote-unquote academically average students So when it comes to the issues of equity and diversity and access and completion Hbc use are really doing the work But they're doing the work with fewer resources And so that's problematic And so in regards to the ncaa when the ncda created the ap r it implemented in 2004 They were well aware they have it documented. I've written this in my dissertation I've written a few other publications It is documented written that the ncaa was well aware that hbc use would have some challenges In meeting this ap r standard nonetheless, they still implemented it Nonetheless, they also increased the standard from 900 to 930 to where it is today With that being in mind So I find that to be very problematic not only did they do that? So then they say okay fine fine fine We're going to offer you about a million dollar grants over the course of three years for limited resource institutions But jared they didn't start implementing these grants until about 2013 Almost 10 years after they implemented the policy. So it's like now you decided 10 years later Okay, I I know we knew from the beginning that resource was an issue We knew from the beginning hbc would find a challenge But we waited for 10 years after they already have decreased their postseason eligibility present To then be able to provide some help and so for me, um, that's that's why I do my work To not only highlight these issues But to provide empirical research to show that one their statistical significance that they are being disproportionately penalized And they are being disproportionately banned Um, but also are they achieving what they're supposed to achieve? And so that's kind of where I feel like my work fits into the to this conversation so it what's your take on the the conversation that Generally results as a as a as a product of this conversation, which is okay If we can't hang a division one and we I think we can acknowledge that Division one even to mid major programs They are starting to be boxed out by the the power five conferences So this is becoming a super elite conference Of you know, usc notodame and texas and all those then you got mid majors or lower You know, you know big state schools and lower michigan state mariland and all them Then you have mid majors like gonzaga and then you have us And they're slowly trying to cut away at everybody who's not a big state or an elite program So if that is if that is true and it's their rules What's your take on the folks who say, you know, hbc used to just say, you know, the hell with all this Let's let's go to division two You know and not and not deal with this Um, and perhaps, you know, re-envision our business model there rather than Dealing with, you know, this headache in this negative media coverage Yeah So definitely it's definitely a voluntary membership You can always go down to another division or you can go completely to another governing agency. There are a few other agencies governing agencies in aia uscaa, which is the u.s. College athletic association Those are other opportunities That you can have membership to the reason I snickered is because history just repeats itself So, um, just real quick prior to ncaa integrating in 1957 That's when they integrated to allow black institutions to have in membership status in the ncaa What they did was they created division two specifically for hbc use So you have ncaa membership status, but you're now division two So you're already a sub level to the other white institutions that are there And so and that's kind of why we see meak plays Amongst themselves and swat plays amongst themselves. It's not very often you see I mean, they do play other white institutions, but they primarily play amongst themselves And so it's just what was the initial intention of hbc use at a ncaa level They were never intended to be d1 But we have all the the laws that have passed and it's just not fair for them not to be represented So what do you do you use policies as a means of coercion? to dismantle hbcu presence And uh, too in some critics believe to reduce the presence of black athletes on a division one level, especially when it's at hbc See you and so we already see savannah state is moving down to division two Next year. Um, so I think we are going to continue to see that I find that very problematic And I do not think that should be the case that you should say, you know what we can't meet this standard Let's move down to division two when there's no empirical evidence that suggests this apr standard equates to academic progress So you're going to move for something that we're not even that the nc double a the nc double a is not even sure Is an indicator of academic progress again It's just the use of policies as a means to facilitate institutional racism At the advantage of those elite institutions, which you named to give them more publicity and um, and what you're going to see is this Really a hydraulic displacement of black male talent from hbcu's to those major Athletic programs and so it'll lead to further dismantling of hbcu athletic programs Which were once the beacon of athletic Of athletes and within the black community to now be shifted to those elite programs and then benefiting Those athletic budgets of those programs, which are already wealthy as it is now So, I mean looking ahead you see a lot of programs are going to have to adjust to this And we're already dealing with a lot of the fallout. I mean, it's it's a terrible Notion when you see a school say, you know apr ban no post season for you know southern no post season for morgan state mama mother um When we know that the game is The game is such like it, you know, I heard this a long time ago if you want to pass apr for basketball, for example Go get a couple smart guys Yep, walk them on Let them graduate in four years and that's part of your score right there and let you know let the let the brothers who are gonna play You know do it do what they're gonna do but people know how to navigate this They do so how and it's understandable that hbcu's don't have the scholarships to do that They don't have just you know three or four scholarships. Just on the you know Y'all sit on the bench and be the in bda Correct You know, but so exactly what What can what can hbcu's do because it is starting to become a thing where As you mentioned with the million dollar grant program and copping and southern and universities like that have gotten that To some success it's it's helped to change some things and you're starting to see a little more representation on ncda You know rules and infractions committees and championship selection committees So it's turning slightly But what could hbcu's do to lobby for more aggressive policy making? Um, what what what should be the ask should it be a different tier of consideration for apr? Should it be apr adjusted overall that could make it easier for some of the larger institutions that know how to game the system What are some of the things that could be effective to help create more equity for the black colleges? Sure. So in one of my publications the one I mentioned earlier With the policy brief with cmu with their policy series. I actually talk about some of the recommendations that Hbcu's can do and one of the ask that I think that's important Um is to allow hbcu's especially institutions with differentiately resource and different missions to be able to tailor The apr standards not only to their capacity But also to what they deem as important Um, and so I think that it's important that if we do are going to use this apr standard One identify if it is doing what it's supposed to do increasing graduation rates Which my dissertation actually found it does not Um, and two if we are going to use this standard We should be able to allow hbcu's and institutions that are limited resource to be able to tailor the standard That's in their capacity which they can reach Otherwise, uh, there are going to happen like you said there's loopholes. You're going to get some people. Um where You begin to decrease access one To college because then you start saying okay, we have to meet this apr standard So I only want this specific student whereas if this standard was never in place I would have allowed the student to come in so then um now hbcu's are moving away from their mission, which is to provide access equity Inclusion etc for students that have been traditionally overlooked. So that becomes problematic with that um So I do think it's important that they do adjust the standards in hbcu's capacity And also another thing is that The ncwa has penalty filters. So there's waivers as adjustments. So for example If your student athlete's graduation rate for the team, etc It's higher than the graduation rate. Um for the institution the student body Uh graduation rates, then they're allowed to continue to play in post season So I think those adjustments. I think those waivers that they have those penalty filters I think they are very applicable and continue should be used for hbcu's Um as they are meeting this apr standard as long as this apr is in place Just to round out everything do Do you think that if we adjust hbcu's to be within the filter of hey account for lower resources account for our mission That it could develop At least a perception of You know kind of inferiority like we had to create a new division for you with less less stringent standards For you guys to compete Um Is there any concern about that or should hbcu's be concerned about that or the ramifications of of being in a division that it seems like You're you're less than even though it could be argued that we're some would say we're already there if and it's unfair I mean because a lot of people say, you know, you're not kentucky. So you're inferior Or you're not, you know, you're not alabama. So you're inferior. Well, uh, I don't know I don't agree with that. But do you do you worry if from doing that from a policymaking standpoint? emphasizes the point I I think so. Yeah, I think it would create that I I think it already has actually happened Um, and and just another thing I think that's important to state is Not all hbcu teams have this issue in meeting the standard For example, I've looked at the data a lot of the female teams are doing well But there are a lot of team female teams that are struggling to meet it But disproportionately it tends to be the male teams and I think the issue was when ucon They won the tournament and then the following year They were actually banned from march madness because they had apr scores that were below It was a huge deal because finally you have one of the big players that are now banned. And so it's like, oh What's happening? Um, and so but that doesn't really happen. What really happens is the hbcu's limited resource institutions are the ones that are banned And nobody says anything about it I I do think a tiered system will have that impact of inferiority And so that's why I honestly think they just need to do away with apr. It's not equitable Is discriminatory and it's inaccurate apr does not achieve what it's supposed to do other than becoming now instead of being a rehabilitative tool Is not a punitive tool against hbc hues Discouraging prospective student athletes from one to maybe play or even attend hbcu because of the stigma that comes with having low apr scores and then further Hurting the hbcu athletic programs because then they're not able to recruit the high achieving The high athletic talent that are now going to hwis that do not have the stigma of low apr scores And so it just has a trickling effect on both the institutional level on both the student level That I think is problematic For the more one other thing I wanted to add is this whole issue of why I think it's important for hbc To continue to stay at a division one level and to continue to be able to play in post-season on a national platform Is because prior to 1957 there was no platform for black athletes to play on a national level We just pretty much had the baseball negro which was important, but it was only for baseball. There's only for males But being able to get ncaa status granted was originally at the division two level now is at a division one It's important and it's more important that they stay there to continue To have their presence and to continue to maintain access and so apr again is just decreasing access to division one Competition which is further decreasing access for students who are interested in playing at an hbcu But it's dead off to go to a hwi because of this issue with apr