 S fairly gofyn i, sefydlu'r 12e gweithio yn Ihwyrb sy'n gymahyd y gwasanaeth drinfodaethol sydd llawer o'r gweithio i hynny oherwydd y cwmhăr, fel ygweld â'r gwaith cymdeithasol nhw gweithio yn y cymorth. Felly, os iddynt felly rydym ni'n gweithio'r fwy o Gweithg的wysig, At item 1, we have consideration of whether to take agenda item 7 and 8 in private. Item 7 is consideration of the evidence heard in relation to the draft fuel poverty strategy, and item 8 is consideration of evidence heard on the proposed single-use plastics legislation. Are we all agreed? That is agreed. Thank you very much. Our first substantive item today is an evidence session on the draft fuel poverty strategy. I welcome Michael Matheson, cabinet secretary for net zero energy and traffic. Niam Batty, head of the fuel poverty and housing standards unit. Good morning, both. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. This provides the Parliament through this committee the opportunity to scrutinise and comment on the draft fuel poverty strategy before it is finalised. Cabinet Secretary, I believe you would want to make a brief opening statement, so I will hand over to you. Thank you very much, convener, and good morning to the committee. The fuel poverty strategy builds on the draft strategy published back in 2018 and identifies a comprehensive range of actions to address all four drivers of fuel poverty. Our statutory fuel poverty targets to 2040 are both ambitious and challenging. These targets will be even more challenging to achieve as the pace of change demanded by our climate change targets is unprecedented. The costs needed to support fuel poor households to transition to net zero are significant as we are committed to ensuring that no one is left behind. However, despite that, there are potential tensions between the drive to decarbonise heat and the reduction of fuel poverty. Work to decarbonise homes and buildings over the next two decades will be led and co-ordinated by the new national public energy agency, which we have committed to establish by 2025. A virtual agency will be in place by September next year and will work in line with a set of guiding principles as set out in our heat and building strategy to support fuel poverty and net zero ambitions. To help inform and design and develop the new agency, I am pleased to announce that today we have launched an early call for evidence that I would invite anyone interested in this agenda to respond to in the coming weeks. The recent sharp rise in energy prices as well as other pressures on household finances have highlighted the challenges that sudden changes in income and energy prices pose. The Scottish Government has taken steps to support people through the winter months through additional funding made available to third sector organisations. I am already taking action within devolved competence but over the longer term we need to see action from the UK Government, especially in terms of how energy markets and energy prices can support both our fuel poverty and net zero ambitions. We will work with the Scottish Fuel Poverty Advisory Panel, once appointed, and a wide range of stakeholders to shape and develop the strategy as we progress implementation. A formal consultation with the panel will take place later next year. I hope that this is helpful, convener, and I am happy to respond to any questions that the committee may have. You mentioned the recent price increases in the energy market, which have generated a lot of headlines. Can you just talk us through your perspective on how those price increases have impacted fuel poverty levels in Scotland? At this stage, it is difficult to assess exactly the impact that it will have. The next set of data will be on fuel poverty figures, which is likely to be December next year, which will pick up on the increase in prices, which we have seen, particularly the spike that we have seen in recent months. It is one of the four key drivers that creates fuel poverty. Every likelihood that it will increase the number of people who are experiencing fuel poverty and the increase in the depth of extreme fuel poverty that some individuals will experience. We are continuing to see rises in fuel prices overall. Going from the discussion that I had with the chair and chief executive of Oathgem last week, there is no indication or any sign that that increase will start to abate in the near future. Households are now increasingly finding themselves difficult because of the escalating costs associated with the spike in fuel prices, which is likely to continue through the winter months. My expectation is that it will increase fuel poverty, which is why we have taken action to provide support during the winter months, as we did last year, to support those households who are experiencing particular difficulties with the additional £10 million that we are providing over the winter, which is alongside the £25 million that we are already providing to try to help to meet some of the needs for those who are experiencing fuel poverty. My expectation is that it will increase fuel poverty and also increase the depth of extreme fuel poverty for some households. Thank you for that, cabinet secretary. I will hand over to my colleagues. After this second question I have, Scotland has some of the oldest housing stock in Europe, so what are the particular policies in place that the Scottish Government is pursuing to address the particular challenges that households face in older housing stocks such as tenements? You are a good point because we have a housing stock in some parts of the country, which is much more challenging for us to make fuel efficient given its age and design nature. That is particularly acute in some of our rural communities. You can see from the fuel poverty data that local authorities that have predominantly rural areas have a greater degree of fuel poverty and extreme fuel poverty, largely as a result of the types of properties that they have. We also have it in cities such as Edinburgh as well, particularly in tenement type properties and older properties. The here and building strategy, which we published a few weeks ago, sets out the approach to making in order to help to not only tackle the issue around carbon emissions from properties, but also to help to improve fuel efficiency and to help to insulate properties much more effectively to reduce their energy needs. The key approach that we have is through our programmes, through the social housing programmes that we provide to local authorities to help to support them in their energy efficiency programmes and replacement of heating systems, which, since 2008, we have almost invested £1 billion in, alongside the on-going work that we will take forward to help to decarbonise properties in the years ahead. We have already committed £1.8 billion to that programme over the course of this parliamentary term. That combination of looking to decarbonise properties while also making them much more fuel efficient is a principal way that we are going about trying to help to support people in moving out of fuel poverty. OK, thank you. Let me bring in Fiona Hyslop, please. Good morning, Cabinet Secretary. Good morning. Can you maybe share with us what you think are the biggest risks in delivering this fuel poverty strategy? I think that there are a whole range of different risks associated with tackling fuel poverty. I mentioned that, as we set out in the strategy, there are four key areas around tackling fuel poverty. Fuel prices, energy efficiency, the way in which fuel is used and also incomes and households, all of which are interrelated to one another. For example, the work that we are taking forward just now to help to improve energy efficiency in the social housing stock and also through some of the other programmes that, for private homeowners users, can get for improving energy efficiency. Some of that work in terms of making progress is positive because it can help to reduce people's fuel needs and their fuel use, which benefits not only financially but also from an environmental point of view. However, there will be households who are presently still experiencing extreme fuel poverty just now or maybe on the edge of going into experiencing fuel poverty that we will find because of the escalating price of their energy costs, is that they find themselves being tripped into fuel poverty or into even deeper fuel poverty. The challenge here is that there are a range of different moving parts. Some of the areas where we have powers to improve fuel efficiency and trying to improve more efficient heating systems in homes can be quite readily undermined by a spike in energy prices or other actions that have an impact on household income. Inflation costs in general are household costs are increasing, which means that people do not have the same disposable income to meet on-going household needs. There are factors out with the material aspect of the building that can have an impact. That is why some of the actions that we have been taking forward will take us so far, but we need to see collective action, I believe, around the energy markets and how we can create greater stability within the energy markets in particular so that we do not see those big spikes in prices, which have a negative impact on household incomes. One of the things that we have asked the UK Government to do through Bays and ministers is to specifically look at the way in which the existing energy markets are operating, how the levy schemes operate around different types of fuel types. There are heavier levies on things such as electricity, gas and how the existing levy scheme operates and how that could be used in a way that also helps to press down the increasing number of people who may be experiencing fuel poverty. There is an interaction between devolved and reserved issues, but there are external factors that can have an impact on fuel poverty figures over a very short period of time, as I expect the spike in energy prices will cause in the months ahead. Clearly, there is a challenge in Scotland about rural, but also semi-rural communities. Even in my constituency in the dead centre of Scotland between the M8 and M9, we have people living with oil-based fuel, so that combination of trying to get to net zero at the same time as all those other risk factors at play could really have an impact on a large number of people in Scotland. How will the fuel poverty strategy and the changes that you are making within the paper that you have presented, and how will it particularly help them? It is not just about advice, it is actually about practical help, which there is a bit of a gap just now. Will the strategy address it? It is not clear where the money is and where the delivery mechanism and grants will actually be. There is a combination of things. The work that we are doing around heat and buildings strategy, not just in social housing but also in private housing, will be a key part of helping to support and deliver on our objectives that are set out within the fuel poverty strategy itself and our statutory targets within that. I might just pick up on a couple of examples that you mentioned there. For example, rural areas. We know that fuel poverty is higher in rural areas, at a fuel poverty level and also at an extreme fuel poverty level. We have the area-based programmes that we provide to local authorities to support them with energy efficiency measures that they can take forward within their respective local authority areas. That is a waiting towards it that helps to provide further resource and support to rural communities to try and help to support them given that they have got a bigger, more extensive problem or greater number of people who are experiencing fuel poverty. Some of the programmes that we have have been amended to take greater recognition of rurality and the most recent funding arrangements with COSLA as well. We have introduced a new funding arrangement with COSLA, which again helps to address the waiting issue around local authorities. I have greater levels of fuel poverty in order to make sure that more of the money is directed towards these particular areas as well. The second issue is in relation to, as you mentioned, some of your constituents in Central Scotland in Westlothain who are using oil-based heating systems is that in helping to address the transition towards using non-fossil fuel-based heating systems is how we can help to drive down the costs or also to increase the amount of funding that may be available to individuals who are looking to replace their heating system to one that is a low-carbon based system. Some of the changes that we have made in the programmes, for example, is that some of the funding has gone from a maximum of £9,000 up to £14,000 to help to support some of the transitions, particularly in rural areas that might be necessary to using a low-carbon system. We are trying to calibrate the funding formula of how money goes to local authorities to reflect where the greatest pockets of fuel poverty are and also in our heating buildings programme to try to look at how we can make sure that the loans and grant-based systems are calibrated in a way that they provide a greater level of funding to those who may be in areas where they are off-grid and they have to look at alternative systems that may be more costly than those who could use an on-grid system. It is trying to make sure that that funding flows in a way that recognises that greater level of need. Thank you. I am quite happy to pass on to our colleagues. Thanks very much. Fiona, Mark Ruskell, please. I think just taking that a little bit deeper in terms of rural communities. Obviously, at the moment, there is a big cost differential between installing a low-carbon system and maybe sticking with an oil-based system. It is to get your views on how that cost reduction can come down over time. I think perhaps one of the issues that people have raised with me is just around the wider servicing infrastructure as well. If people are being asked to make a jump to a low-carbon system and there maybe is not the supply chain there, there is not the reduction in costs there, but there maybe is not the maintenance and supply servicing infrastructure, that will be a concern, a barrier to people making a jump over. I am interested in what thinking is coming through the heat and building strategy and how that merges with the targets here. That is a key part of the heat and building strategy is to look at how we can try to mitigate some of these challenges. There is no doubt that as new technology comes on to the market or people are early adopters of technology that is low-carbon or zero-carbon, very often the costs tend to be higher at the earlier stages of it. What the general sense of the market is is that the demand grows, the costs will start to decline as the sector starts to develop capacity and it becomes much more common for people to be using and deploying low-emission heating systems. One of the challenges that we have going forward is trying to get the scale of change that we are looking for in the years ahead that poses a risk of pushing people into fuel poverty because systems could be more expensive for them to both adopt and potentially use. That is why the Public Energy Agency will have an important role in helping to co-ordinate and plan that work. One of the things that we are looking at doing is how can we make sure that we are co-ordinating action across our local authorities. We have not got local authorities or social housing providers all going off trying to do 32 different ways or trying to go away and do 200 different ways for housing associations. We are trying to provide some co-ordination to that and that can help to drive down costs through the use of the agency and helping to co-ordinate some of their action and also looking to how we can plan to drive down some of the costs. If I was to say to you though, are we seeing a shift in the sector in recognising that this is where things are going to go? I think in, you know, from our history of its own constituency, the investment that has just recently been made by in Mitsubishi at their Livingston plant on air source heat pumps is a clear indication that they see this as being a growing market, not just for Scotland and the UK but also across Europe. We are starting to see it moving in that direction but we need to make sure that we are taking co-ordinated action to try to drive down costs and that is one of the roles that the agency will have in trying to help to support that work. You announced the consultation into the establishment of the agency today and you are talking now about a set-up of next year rather than a virtual set-up. In terms of work on that supply chain, how would you see the energy agency co-ordinating action there? What will it practically do? Is it going to rely more on local government delivery partners or voluntary sector agencies? I think that just some clarity over what the agency will practically is envisaged to do on the ground to help tackle some of these issues and roll out programmes would be useful. I do not want to pre-empt the consultation. The feedback that we get from the consultation but for example one of the areas that it could look to do is to co-ordinate the planning of works for the decarbonisation of social housing. How do we for example bring together housing associations to help to look at co-ordinating some of their joint planning for the decarbonisation of their hearing systems? Rather than going away if they have a housing stock of 500, looking to just do it for 500, it may be actually working with several other housing authorities or social housing providers, but they could drive down the cost by bringing the works together. That is the sort of thing that the agency could help to provide support and advice around how they can co-ordinate that, which gives them a bigger purchasing power and could help to mitigate against some of the risks of trying to do it on their own as well. That is a practical example of one of the things that the agency could actually assist in doing. The second area is, how we can develop the heat as a surface and how that could potentially lead to what would be local hearing providers within local communities to help to support development in that area, to assist social housing providers or local authorities that are looking at that as a model through the district hearing systems, trying to help to provide them with expertise and advice and help to co-ordinate some of that action so that, if they are trying to do it in Stirling, Stirling Council is looking at it and Falkirk Council is looking at it as well. How can we join some of that together so that we are getting some shared learning? Again, that could be a role for the agency. It is one of the things that we are asking during the course of the consultation for feedback on specifically and how that could help to support that area of work developing. Just one question. An issue was raised with me yesterday with Fife Council about default providers for council tenants of energy and how it's very difficult now to get energy companies to become the default provider for council tenants. SSE, I think, are not interested in being the default provider for Fife Council. I wonder if that was an issue that you were aware of because obviously now we're seeing more and more energy companies going to the wall. Are they able to provide a competitive offering for council tenants is going to be getting less and less. There seems to be a lack of appetite to take on council tenants, which is worrying. I'm not aware of the specific issue in Fife and if you want to provide with more information or what they're happy to look into. The way in which it operates just now is that if an energy provider drops out of the market, the most recent being bulb last week, which is going into a special administration arrangement, which is different from what's happened to the other providers, I think there's now something like 21 providers have dropped out of the market, is that off-gem actually allocates their customers to another service provider, so through the operator of last resort arrangements, so they reallocate their customers. That scheme continues to operate, so if you're a bulb customer, you are in a different position because the Government's effectively taking that on as a special administrator, but if you were with People's Energy, there was a Scottish-based company that withdrew from the market, then you were transferred to another energy provider on the basis of their rates as well. One thing I would say is that, given the number of companies who have moved out of the market, companies that are left to pick up the customers are finding that increasingly challenging because they are having to absorb significant numbers of customers, so there is a wider systemic issue within the sector that I believe needs to be addressed, and that's an issue that I've raised, I raised it with the quasi-quartang in a discussion early on when this issue started to emerge, and I think it's an issue that BASE still needs to address, and I discussed it again with the off-gem last week that there are systemic problems within the energy market that need to be addressed, and that requires action at a UK level. Thank you, Mark. Liam Kerr, please. Good morning, cabinet secretary. Briefly, Scotland has adopted a suite of definitions different from those being used in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Why was that out of interest? In definitions in terms of what? In terms of things like fuel poverty. It's very difficult to make a direct comparison between data because there are different definitions, and I just wonder why that might be. It predates me because it was through the Parliament, I don't know if Naeem can say a bit more about that, but part of it, my understanding was, was to try and provide a much more accurate reflection of the situation in Scotland. For example, some of the baseline data that is used by the UK Government doesn't reflect the specific challenges that we have in rural communities, so the definition that was adopted in the Fuel Poverty Act was one that was to give us a much more accurate picture of the depth and scale of fuel poverty in Scotland. For example, the warm homes discount scheme that operates at a UK level, so the threshold for that, for example for some households in Scotland, is simply it's too high, and it means that some households in Scotland who are experiencing fuel poverty don't qualify for it. That's one of the reasons why, again, there was consideration of, there was a look at changing the definition, but Naeem may be able to say a bit more about the history of it, given the Parliament's scrutiny of it during the course of the passage of the act. Thank you, cabinet secretary. As the cabinet secretary says, this definition was agreed by Parliament because to take account of the unique circumstances for the country as a whole, some of the definitions in England are not aligning to the needs of us because of more rural areas, but we have around supply and trying to get the different tenements and buildings upgraded. The definition was based on what does Scotland need and it doesn't align with the England ones. It doesn't align with Wales one because they are taking a different approach. Our approach is looking at what is the fuel poverty after housing costs and other incomes have been taken into account. As the cabinet secretary highlighted, warm homes discount and eco, are targeting particular people for support, but that doesn't meet our requirements around it. That was agreed by Parliament the definition. Thank you for the comprehensive reply. You said in your opening remarks that there is a tension between achieving a reduction in fuel poverty and achieving other policy objections such as the transition to net zero. How do you foresee that tension being resolved and which will take priority where you can't resolve that tension? I don't think we should see it as an either or. I think we have to see both of them going hand in hand. The tension is for example a practical tension is that a lot of the zero emission energy systems that could be deployed within homes are electricity based systems. Right now the levies that are applied by the UK Government on energy are greater for electricity than the afternoon gas. As we see that transition away from using carbon based heating systems to low carbon or zero carbon based systems, we need to see that being reflected in the levies system because it potentially drives up the cost given the way in which it is presently calibrated. I can't simply do that overnight. It's got to be done on a gradual basis because the danger is that if you just shift it all over to gas as you focus on reducing gas still into fuel poverty. The big challenge here around the transition that is addressed in the heating and building strategy is how you drive down the cost of the installation of zero emission or low carbon heating systems while at the same time taking forward energy efficiency measures. We need to go hand in hand and that is going to be the real challenge. A big part of that is how we drive down the costs and then the on-going usage costs. Given that many of, for example, where so-seat pumps etc are dependent on electricity we then at a UK level need to see the levy system starting to reflect that shift to zero emission heating systems and to ensure that it is not pushing more people into fuel poverty. Thank you for that. On that exact point I'm going to go ever so slightly local as my friend Mark Ruskell did earlier just now because it's come up. You talked a lot there about investing in heating systems to decarbonise properties and certainly in the draft strategy and just in your answer that you talked about heat pumps powered by electricity. Given the catastrophe of the last few days what are you going to do to convince people that electricity and electric powered heating is the way to go particularly in the more rural areas that my friends were looking at earlier and what contingency planning would be done such that if everyone were to move to electric powered heating that if we have the catastrophe that we've had over the last few days they're not left freezing in houses in rural areas? Given the very serious difficulty that we've had over the course of the last few days and continues for households today that are off grid many of them live in areas where they're already off the gas grid so their only option is gas or oil-based heating systems and as you would always expect during the course of or after any major event like this we need to make sure that utility companies such as SSCA Scottish Power Energy Network are looking to see whether there are further measures that they can put in place to try and help to minimise the loss of power in the way in which they've experienced however I think we have to reflect in the fact that the level of faults and difficulties which have been experienced across the network is unprecedented I've heard over the course of the last few days that compared to three times the number of faults that they experienced during the beast of the east some one-pointed over 500 faults in the system trying to repair them so I think more you can do in terms of resilience I think one of the other aspects here is how you can also help to develop potentially local heating systems as well and local energy systems and as I mentioned to Mark Ruskell one of the options around using things like district energy systems is that it provides you with greater local resilience because it is much more self-sufficient so I think there's potential for that it's more challenging in rural areas because of the way in which population disperse but it has the potential but of course key thing is when faults are found is that the redress is quickly as possible when we're trying to get folk back on online and providing with support during what is a difficult time Thanks very much Liam Jackie Dunbar to be followed by Monica Lennon Good morning cabinet secretary I'm just going to ask how far can devolved policy measures address fuel poverty in Scotland and how important is wider reform in the UK's energy market So I think there is I think it would be fair to say I think there's a shared interest at both a UK and Scottish government level to tackle fuel poverty However there are more extreme levels of it in Scotland because of the nature of our geography and housing type So it's important that we that the UK government are taking actions that are necessary to support us in helping to achieve our fuel poverty targets and to make sure that the measures that they are taking can assist us in achieving that and I mentioned for example the way in which the levy systems are operating and how that not just changing it randomly but how you can plan for that to be changed in a transitional way that helps to reduce fuel poverty going forward There is no doubt in my mind there needs to be a systemic shift in the energy market So if you look at what's happened largely over the course of the last couple of months with the companies that have withdrawn there are largely two types of energy providers There are those which are called hedged and those that are unhedged So those that are hedged have actually bought their gas and electricity ahead So they've bought it, some of them buy it maybe 18 months ahead some 6 months ahead, some 3 months ahead and those that are unhedged are basically buying it on the market each day So what you've seen and what you've witnessed is largely those who were not all of them but the majority of those who were unhedged have actually dropped out of the market because it's just become that it's just not sustainable So there's a systemic issue in the way in which the industry is operating in that should we have been in a position where companies were unhedging on our energy source or primary energy source in a way that quite literally has left millions of customers having to be transferred to other providers So there's a regulatory aspect in there that needs to be addressed I think the second thing that it highlights is the need to decarbonise our hearing system so that we move away from the need for carbon based particularly gas based heating and I know that that's a view which is shared by the UK Government is that they feel this highlights and look at decarbonising it quicker in a way that reduces our dependency on fossil fuels So I'd like to think that there's a shared interest and certainly for my discussions with them there is a shared interest in it but it's important that we also see the policy action that's been taken that gives us greater certainty in the market but also at the same time that helped to address fuel poverty in a way that is shared with their own strategy and I can feel poverty Jackie, let me bring in Monica Lennon please Thank you, convener My questions have partly been covered because I was keen to ask about the national public energy agency because I was surprised and the quite chunky draft strategy there's no mention of the agency but you have said cabinet secretary that a consultation has started today I can't see that one line yet so perhaps just for the benefit of the committee can you tell us how the agency fits with the strategy and when the agency might begin because we're a bit behind in terms of what we thought would be a public energy company that would have a role in generation and that didn't happen so how can we be confident that the new agency that's proposed will come along quite quickly I'm not sure if the agency was referred to as a heating building strategy rather the fuel poverty strategy if I remember correctly because it sits there more than within the fuel poverty strategy although the agency will have a clear guiding principle about helping to support us in decarbonising domestic heating systems but also helping to address fuel poverty as well and that's two of its key principles that it will take and going forward I mentioned earlier on some of the work that the agency can take forward in helping to co-ordinate and plan some of the work around decarbonising folks' properties and also how that can also sit alongside tackling fuel poverty as well and that's part of why we're taking forward the consultation I think it would be fair to say that the feedback that we've had from across the sector is supportive of the role that an agency can have in helping to co-ordinate this action has changed in some of this work by having a national agency that will be able to draw that together and help to plan some of that on a more strategic level and also to provide the expertise and guidance I think will be extremely valuable and as I mentioned previously and I think maybe to your question to yourself when I was last at the committee around the shift in our approach from moving from a public energy moving to a public energy agency that was bestowed and was in our programme for government this year is a reflection of what is a big shift in what we now have to do in decarbonising a million homes and 50,000 non-domestic premises between now and 2030 which is a colossal undertaking and we need to try and help to plan and manage that as effectively as possible guided by the principles of decarbonisation and also tackling fuel poverty and that will be a key role for the agency moving forward I'm grateful for the clarification I suppose just in terms of joining things together which I think was a phrase you used yourself earlier on cabinet secretary I just was surprised that there was a reference to the national public energy agency in this document but that's helpful what you've said I suppose I just wondered I appreciate from the Government's point of view you think the situation has changed therefore a public energy company approach but in terms of the spirit of the co-operation agreement is that something that can be looked at again and that the Parliament can have a role in revisiting because I think given the challenges that we face we do need to be ambitious and look at how we can really get big system change so is that something that you think that the Government will keep an open mind to? I think I said what I was at the committee the last time is I'm very open to the model of looking at how we can develop heat as a service so I think that's a we've actually signed a memorandum of understanding with the Danish Government specifically on this to look at they've got more experience in this area than we have in the public sector to look at how we can develop that model in a more in depth way and in a way that I believe can help to deliver what was some of the intended outcomes from a public energy company but in a way that is much more consistent with delivering on our net zero ambitions as well so I think it's I think if anything the ground has shifted somewhat and I think the issue around heat as a service, the use of district heating in my view and how that could be through local energy provision doesn't have to be a big company that's providing that it could be through a local co-operative type arrangement has got real potential and I think that's the role that I'm very open to and I think it could actually be much more productive and create the change that we're looking for Thank you I'm conscious of time so let me bring in Collette Stevenson for a question or two Collette, please Good morning, Cabinet Secretary I wanted to touch upon the statutory targets that are in place for 2040 and how they apply at our national level and also at every local authority as well so there's interim targets as well between 2030 and 2035 as well but they only appear to apply at national level do you expect to see local authorities facing more difficulties and if so what plans are actually in place to see if there's work being done on certain local authorities particularly in rural areas and how they actually meet those targets as well and what challenges they're going to face there I think you raised a really important point because obviously the statutory target for 2040 is a national target and we've also got the interim targets for 2035 and 2030 at our national level as well the reason that we have not applied them at a local level in the same ways because of the very significant difference you have between different local authorities so if I take for example if you take a local authority like Highland Council they have the last Scottish household condition survey Estimate Wars I think it was between 2017 and 2019 estimated they had about 33% of their population experiencing fuel poverty that's significantly above the 84 plus 24.6% national figure so there will be different approaches that will be necessary in different local authorities and we need to make sure that the way in which we calibrate our programmes and funding support and assistance is that we take recognition that there are local authority areas that have getting greater experience of fuel poverty and the way in which that will be progressed and the planning will be taken forward through their housing stock strategy plans but we're also working to develop what are local heat and energy efficiency strategies and we're looking to work with COSLA and local authorities around how they will develop those at a local level and to place them on a statutory footing and to make sure that we provide them with the resource support that's necessary to take them forward and implement them that's a piece of work that we're taking forward at the present moment and I would expect I think is it 2023 or thereabouts we're expecting local authorities to have these in place and we're presently looking at how we can put that on a statutory footing to make sure that they've got plans and strategies in place to deliver on the requirements to meet the fuel poverty targets Okay, no thanks for that answer Just on that touching upon local authorities as well in light of the report that we got as well which was great fantastic comprehensive support as well thank you Can I ask where the cold weather payments how they align themselves with our fuel poverty strategy are they in tandem with that or is that going to be the form part of it and I'm going to be slightly parochial here because coming from my constituency here at Inesgo Bride we have a lot colder weather given that we're actually higher up so I'm just wondering whether that cold weather payment how it applies and even the weather stations that they use as well the impact if that's been considered as part of the fuel poverty strategy So and I acknowledge the fact that the Inesgo Bride can be a kind of its own micro-weather system at times so different from that of the rest of Lanarkshire in Greater Glasgow there's a couple of schemes which are an operation just now which is the warm homes discount scheme and the eco scheme that operates they are linked into the pension credit scheme for automatic payments and for those who don't have the right gateway benefits it's the required to apply for it at particular points there is presently engagement with the UK Government on potentially changing these schemes one to increase the threshold to the £140 potentially increasing that too we would like to merge both the schemes into a single scheme rather having two separate schemes operating and we're engaging with the UK Government on that I've taken a matter up with Lord Callaghan who is the minister at a UK level that's dealing with us to see if we can try and simplify the scheme and shift the threshold to increase the number of people who would receive it automatically potentially which would help to make it a quicker and it would also make it one where individuals don't have to apply because they aren't aware of it or that they just simply lose out on it that there's a greater certainty around them getting it as well so we are looking there are areas that require agreement from the UK Government and the Secretary of State for Business and we've engaged with them to look at whether we could simplify the system here in Scotland in a way that would help to provide a greater range of automatic payments for our money the way in which the existing system operates for larger just those that are in need Thanks very much Collette Cabinet Secretary, final question if I may you've mentioned the heat and building strategy a few times which is obviously intertwined with the fuel poverty strategy the Scottish Government has set out an estimated cost of £33 billion I believe for the entire retrofitting and salary work necessary for the housing and building stock in Scotland that funding will come from a combination of public sector funding and private sector funding when do you think the Scottish Government will have a better idea of how that sum is going to be divided between public sector funding and funding from the private sector so my public sector private sector and individual funding that will meet the cost of the heat and building strategy I can't give you a specific date to say we will have x amount banked from the private sector to deliver it what I can see is that we are in discussions and private sector organisations around the scope to which they may be able to help to deliver some of this I know during the course of COP I met a number of different companies who were interested in looking at how they could help to support the whole idea of rolling out district heating systems and local energy systems they've got a there's some experience in Scandinavia around these things which is why we signed the MOU with the Danish Government district heating and heating homes I think there are I've had discussions again with the companies during the course of the last week who are interested in looking at how they can support businesses Scottish-based businesses that have models that they think could actually be scaled up and rolled out so through the use of so you may be aware of the star energies facility on the Clyde which again is a family-owned business that's based in Eastwood and Glasgow that has the potential to be scaled up and developed and there's a potential for investment in these areas that could, which would be moving much more to a heat-as-a-service type model as well so I can't give you a date and say that we'll have the £33 billion banked in this day, it's going to be an on-going piece of work and engage them with the private sector in looking to see areas that they can provide support in meeting the transition as we go forward alongside public sector investment. I think what the public sector investment can do it can act as a catalyst to generate greater investment in these areas and also help to try and drive down the costs to help to support people who are looking to even invest in it themselves for their own properties and that's one of the ways in which we're trying to make sure that our investment is focused particularly on social housing to support the sector to scale up develop and also to drive down the costs which can then have a wider economic benefit as more people look to install them in their own properties or as commercial operators start to move into the market as well. That brings us to the end of this session thank you both for joining us this morning and I now suspend this meeting for a change of panel members. Thank you. Welcome back everyone our next item is to take evidence on the environmental protection single use plastic products Scotland regulations 2021. These regulations are subject to the negative procedure but since they raise interesting issues of public interest we are having a short evidence session with the Scottish Government before we dispose of the regulations formally at a meeting in December. I welcome Lorna Slater, minister for green skills, circular economy and biodiversity. I also welcome officials who are joining us remotely Andrew Forsythe, Elsa Heane and Janet McVeigh. Thank you very much everyone for making yourself available to the committee this morning. Minister, I understand that you would like to make a short opening statement if that's the case. I will hand over to you. Thank you very much. Good morning everyone. I have got a short statement on this item. Every year hundreds of millions of pieces of single use plastic are wasted in this country. They litter our coasts pollute our oceans and contribute to the climate emergency. That is why the Scottish Government has laid legislation before the Scottish Parliament that bends some of the most problematic single use plastic products and helps us move to a more circular economy. Starting from June 2022 the items included in the single use plastic regulations are single use plastic cutlery such as forks, knives, spoons and chopsticks plates, straws, beverage stirrers and balloon sticks. Food containers made of expanded polystyrene and cups and other beverage containers made of expanded polystyrene. The regulations will be the first in the UK to bend such a wide range of single use plastic items and go further than the single use plastic bands currently enforced in the rest of the UK. These products cover 86 per cent of all single use plastic items on European beaches about half of all plastic marine litter. I came across this last night when I was reading that the most recent data from the Marine Conservation Society's 2020 Great British Beach Clean found that plastic and polystyrene pieces are the most common item found littered on beaches by a large margin. I do recognise that the ban is at risk from the UK Internal Market Act which effectively exempts any items that are produced in or imported via another part of the UK. Officials continue to work with the other administrations across the UK to try and find a way to ensure that the ban is not undermined. Extensive consultations have been undertaken with stakeholders during the development phase of the regulations. This included industry, non-governmental organisations, equality groups, users of the products and of course the general public. Findings from these consultations were taken into account in drafting in the final drafting of the regulations and will also help inform the policy area. Action has been taken to limit the impact on Scottish businesses. The regulations will come into force in June 2022 giving businesses time to take action to prepare for the new measures. A guidance document has also been published on the Scottish Government's website. Feedback on the impact on the wider public has also been taken into account. Crucially, the legislation includes exemptions for single use plastic straws to make sure that those who need them for independent living or medical purposes can still get access to them. That means that they can be supplied in particular settings and circumstances as before and can still be sold under certain conditions in a pharmacy. Enforcement work will be undertaken by local authority enforcement officers. Enforcement officers will be authorized by local authorities to exercise powers in the regulations in order to determine whether an offence has been committed. In addition to the incredibly important environmental policy aims of this legislation, the Scottish Government continues to be committed to matching or exceeding the standards of the EU single use plastics directive. The products covered by those regulations therefore help to align Scottish legislation with article 5 of the EU directive. The measures cover all products in article 5 except for oxodegradable plastic products. Oxodegradables is an area of significant complexity and rapid change and it is important that we make a decision based on the most up-to-date information. The policy intention remains to ban oxodegradable products via further regulations next year. We are currently collecting this evidence in advance of taking action and will provide an update in due course. Further work is on going to match or exceed the standards in the other articles of the EU directive through measures you will already be aware of such as the deposit return scheme and extended producer responsibility. The single use plastics regulations are another important step forward in our efforts to tackle Scotland's throwaway culture by reducing our reliance on single use plastic and encouraging more reusable and sustainable alternatives. They are one part of a wide array of policy measures that will help to move Scotland to a more circular economy. As already noted, further action is to follow through key initiatives such as the deposit return scheme. Thank you. I hope that I will be able to answer any of your questions. Thank you very much minister, that was very helpful. You mentioned that the definitions used in the negative instrument are very technical indeed in terms of the items covered in the ban. Given that, what specific guidance has been given to small business who might be affected by the regulations, particularly given that breach of the regulations can result in a criminal offence? Extensive consultation with Scottish businesses has been undertaken in the preparation of the regulations, including feedback on the draft regulations that were made public earlier this year. The regulations come into force, as I said, on June 1, 2022, giving Scottish businesses six months to prepare. That followed feedback from consultations that less than six months would not be enough time to prepare for significant regulatory changes for businesses already dealing with the twin headache of Brexit and Covid-19. For example, some businesses buy stocks six months in advance and so would be running the risk of having a lot of stock they would have to dispose of. We generally support their proposals. The vast majority of those products are imported into the UK and are not produced in Scotland. The move to the circular economy will create many exciting opportunities for innovative Scottish businesses to take advantage of. The specific question is to what the penalties are I will have to ask officials to help me out on. That's fine. We can come back to penalties later. I think that some of my colleagues have questions on penalties. Just to follow a question on the consultation process, a number of individuals and organisations fed into the consultation process. In terms of the business organisations that you or officials met with, can you explain or describe what that consultation looked like? How many business organisations did you meet with to discuss the impact of the regulations? Absolutely, I've got some more information on that here. There were two public consultations conducted as a part of a wide range of stakeholder engagement. The first consultation sought views on the items to be covered by the regulations and how restrictions might be implemented. The consultation received positive feedback from individuals and organisations on the plans. The second public consultation was on the draft regulations themselves. Responses were used to fine-tune the regulations and as indicators for what subjects should be included in the online guidance document. Extensive stakeholder engagement was undertaken throughout, including with industry through in advance the first public consultation and through open dialogue throughout the process. Internal Scottish Government colleagues through discussions with experts in areas such as health, equalities, pharmacy, EU alignment and constitution. Users of single-use plastic products such as through a straws advisory group facilitated by Inclusion Scotland focusing on equalities issues. Zero waste Scotland, who have provided policy and analytical support throughout the process. We spoke to the other UK Administrations, NGOs through the consultation process and direct engagement and to the general public. Thank you very much. Let me bring in Liam Kerr at the stage. Thank you, convener. Good morning, minister. Given the financial assessment says that there will be a minimal impact, can you help the committee to understand how many businesses are actually impacted both by number and value and what mitigation is being considered for those businesses who are impacted both as producers but also as users? I think that there will be a minimal impact on the financial assessment. There are many benefits, obviously, to Scotland from having less litter on our beaches and the cost involved in picking that up and that involves our tax money being used to collect the litter on the beaches. The overall positive effect on the economy is very strong, but I will turn to my officials for details on the businesses affected. Are we able to bring in one of the officials? Good morning. In terms of the exact number of businesses that are affected by number and value, the exact number of businesses as the minister has communicated quite clearly is a very small percentage of Scottish businesses who manufacture these items. As the minister has also noted, our ban doesn't just supply of these items, but also manufacturer noting our global ambition. In terms of the directive that has been published since 2019, businesses have adapted and have moved with the market alongside this. During the consultation process, there was general support as well as, obviously, those UK-wide directions and policy ambitions to match Scotland. Respectfully, I'm not sure that answers my question in terms of the value and the number, but we move on. A related question is around what is the impact on the Scottish supply chain in terms of numbers and value, minister? I don't have the numbers for the Scottish supply chain in front of me. Again, maybe officials can help with that. Thank you, minister. A full business impact assessment was conducted and consulted upon during the process which outlines all the key figures. It's published alongside our regulations and we can provide a copy to the committee to answer your questions. I'd be very grateful if you would. Final question from me, minister. It's a slightly different angle, if I may. I have the regulations here. Part 3 potentially fixes corporate liability on to directors and managers and even members. I presume that that means members of something like a club. Is this usual? What representations have you had from legal bodies on that provision? That's a very technical question, so I'll need to go to officials for that one as well. Yes, minister, I can answer the question. It's not an unusual provision in the types of regulations to make provision for corporate bodies in relation to the offences. Those regulations are similar to regulations that have already been made to ban cotton buds microbeads. They also have similar provisions. Just on that I'm very grateful to Elsa for the answer. The second part of my question is what representations you might have had. Similar to my previous question I wonder if those might be provided to the committee afterwards if that wouldn't be any trouble. What kind of organisations do you mean from? I asked about legal businesses and or business organisations who might have made representations around this particular part 3. Okay, I think we can check. I don't know which representations we had on that. Very grateful, thank you. Thank you very much. Liam, let me bring in Monica Lennon, please. Thank you. Good morning minister and your officials. I was pleased to hear that you were doing some reading last night about the result of the Great British Beach Clean and Marine Conservation Society's involvement in organising that. You'll know from that reading that the second most common item to be found in terms of pollution of our beaches and coastline is wet wipes that contain plastics. I wonder if you can give us an update in terms of whether that would be the next step. Would a ban in wet wipes come next? There's a 10-minute rule bill in Westminster and Marine Conservation Society has said that banning single-use plastic wet wipes is such an easy step to take in order to help to achieve a circular economy. I really would like your thoughts on that. The member is absolutely correct and thank you very much for highlighting this very serious problem of wet wipes that contain plastic that don't buy or degrade that end up on our beaches. On the other hand, anywhere else in the UK something like five times more wet wipes on Scottish beaches than anywhere else. This is absolutely something that we need to take action on. It's the largest single-component material founded in sewage system blockages which costs a lot of money and the vast majority of those currently contain plastic. Wet wipes containing plastics were included in a list of potential additional items to be banned in the public consultation for single-use plastic regulations with 94 per cent of the respondents in favour. When we consulted on this regulation that we're looking at today, we also asked about wet wipes and 94 per cent of people agreed that they should be banned. The Scottish Government are encouraging the UK Government and other administrations to work with us to bring forward a ban on wet wipes containing plastic which we consider unnecessary and environmentally harmful. Some of the other approaches such as a design standard or an EPR scheme we do not consider will address the growing problem in a timely matter hence why we're trying to encourage the other UK administrations to work with us on a ban. We know through experience of banning harmful products such as plastic stem cotton buds in 2019 that this is an effective solution to the problem. Is it the case then that the Scottish Government cannot add wet wipes to the list at present and how often will the list of restricted items be reviewed? The approach is the EU directive from which this is article 5 has many other articles in it which cover things such as wet wipes but also the extended producer responsibility and other items. Article 5 is just the first piece of that to come forward. The other articles will come forward in their own time because it is the Scottish Government's intention to align with the directive even though we are no longer members of the EU. The idea is that we would continue to bring those forward on their original timescales. Wet wipes being such an urgent issue it's something we're looking at seeing what we can do sooner ideally a ban throughout the UK nations but it's something we're actively looking at just now. You touched briefly before protecting our environment as a devolved matter and the regulations that we're considering today would go a long way to achieve that. You also said that that could be undermined by the UK Government's internal market bill. With that in mind can you set out how the UK Government is engaging with you on the issue and what the implications would be if the exemption is not made? Thank you very much for the question. In line with the programme for Government commitments the regulations have been laid before the Scottish Parliament earlier this month and they'll come into force in June as discussed banning the manufacture and supply of these very problematic plastic products. Alignment in relation to the policy measures of these regulations with the other UK administration was not possible due to uncertainty around the final content of the UK Government and Welsh Government's legislation and the inability for UK Government and Welsh Government to legislate as soon as the Scottish Government we basically got ahead of them. To address the first part of the question this is precisely the scenario that the Scottish Government and environmental organisations warned would arise with the UK Internal Market Act. You can have democratically accountable Scottish ministers implementing policy and being accountable to the Scottish Parliament or you can have the UK Internal Market Act but you can't have both. Whilst we still fundamentally oppose the act officials have been engaging in the preferred option of securing an exclusion from the act in this policy area through a common frameworks process. Agreement has now been reached on the process by which agreements can be reached within the common frameworks areas that can be excluded. UK ministers will shortly make a statement in Parliament to that effect. This is an early test of the UK ministers commitment to act in a way that respects the framework process. This won't make the act any more compatible with devolution but it will allow a degree of protection for policy areas covered by common frameworks. Regarding what the implications would be if an exemption to the impact of the UK Internal Market Act is not made if an exemption to the impact of the UK Internal Market Act is not made and this will mean that any products that are produced in or imported by another part of the UK can still be sold in Scotland which means hundreds of millions is not allowed. This will mean that without exception the act will undermine our ban on these environmentally damaging plastic products. So we will continue to work with the other administrations across the UK to try and agree an approach to managing the implications of the act for the ban. I will be attending an interim ministerial meeting on this topic next week with the intention of explaining the Scottish Government position and seeking answers from my counterparts. We now look to the UK Government and its commitments that it made during the passage of the Internal Market Act to protect frameworks and to exclude this policy area from the scope of the Internal Market Act. I will also be writing to the UK Government to ask them to take the necessary steps to protect the integrity of our ban. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Jackie. Let me bring in Collette Stevenson, please. Okay, thanks. Good morning, minister. I wanted to really touch upon the public procurement aspect of it and what impact assessment if any has been done in terms of if the legislation was to be rolled out. Because obviously there's obviously a variety of different frameworks in place even from a local authority level and you know how do you align them? You're talking about banning within six months. I'm just wondering what work has been done on this and could there possibly be a legal challenge from the companies who currently have those tender frameworks as well? Thank you very much for the question. I'll talk to you about the impact assessments that were done and then I may need to hand to officials for the more detailed legal question. The following impact assessments were completed with the business regulatory impact assessment strategic environmental assessment equality impact assessment land duty island communities screening assessment work performed as part of the impact assessment process found that restricting the availability of plastic straws may impact on some people with protected characteristics more than others this included the loss of independence and loss of functions related to eating and drinking which other straws don't provide so targeted exemptions on the ban of single use plastic straws are included so that was a key finding of the impact assessments. Significant findings for the business impact assessment which is related to what you're asking about is that the vast majority of the products covered are not made in Scotland so they're not commonly manufactured here that alternative materials to these are already readily available. I know my chippy uses cardboard so it's not that alternatives are hard to get or expensive the economy-wide impact of introducing these restrictions does have a cost compared to business as usual but net present value is generally increasing the item costs in particular because some of the alternative items have higher costs. I'll turn to officials to answer the question about the legal impact and specifically your question on public procurement because that is not covered here. Thank you for the question as noted previously the directive itself has been published since 2019 and the Scottish Government have been clear their intention to bring forward regulations ever since at that point and our partners at Zeroway Scotland have communicated clearly that we intend to bring the regulations in supporting those in the public sector in their procurement decisions encouraging them to take early action ahead of the regulations being laid and coming to force next year. We continue to work with Zeroway Scotland on messaging and supporting businesses on how to transition to new procurement arrangements. Thank you. I have no further questions at this time. Thanks. Thank you. Collette, Mark Ruskell, please. Yeah, thanks. I think we've pretty much exhausted all the questions really but I suppose I just have just a couple of ones that were still left. I mean one was around fishing gear which I think has been identified alongside wet wipes as a particular problem. I'm sure with the MCS survey as well minister you'll see that we often have fishing gear washing up on our beaches and it's a difficult problem to deal with. The other question was just around that common framework, that resources and waste common framework. Is it operational? I think you said earlier that you're now entering into meetings with other administrations and I presume that DRS and alignment on DRS and a lot of other things will be part of that conversation including extended producer responsibility but do we have a sensible basis on which to move forward on circular economy policy decisions across the UK is that framework operational and what are we doing about the fishing gear? Thanks very much for the question. The member is correct that the framework process to allow exemptions to the internal market act is going to be absolutely critical to us being able to tackle litter and implement the circular economy. That framework is under way so I can give you an update on how that's doing. There are challenges here as I'm sure you understand. Protecting the Scottish environment is a matter of devolved competence, the EU directive which was the basis for these regulations came into force in 2019 as the official has pointed out while all the nations of the UK were still in the EU before the internal market act was created. The internal market act in potentially undermining Scotland's ability to protect our environment from this damaging pollution represents an assault on devolution the like of which we have not experienced since the current Scottish Parliament was established. Scottish ministers remain fundamentally opposed to the imposition of this act. However, we are working on this common framework process. Our government officials have worked closely with officials from the other UK governments to design these frameworks where they are necessary in line with the principles of common frameworks which we agreed in October of 2017. Those principles include the agreement that as part of the process for establishing any common frameworks, the devolved institutions competence would not normally be adjusted without their consent. The frameworks are supposed to maintain as a minimum equivalent flexibility for tailoring the policies to the specific needs of each territory as was afforded by the current EU rules. The answer to your question in the short form is that these frameworks are under development but have not yet been committed to. The UK Government might not maintain their promise to implement those frameworks as we agreed in 2017. That is what I will be asking next week to continue to work on those frameworks and allow those exemptions that do not only apply to the very important areas of single-use plastics but specifically to the extended producer responsibility scheme, which ourselves and the Welsh Government have much stronger ambitions than the UK Government does in terms of timeline and what is involved in that. I think that it is really important that each nation in the UK is able to move on those at the pace that works for them. I even spoke to Lord Diebin of the Climate Change Committee last week. He supports this approach because he likes the idea that each nation will challenge the other and that each nation that steps ahead as a Scotland is doing with these will challenge the other nations to align with them so that we have a continually improvement approach where we are reducing waste and preventing litter. I think that it was Roger Morgan who said that devolution was a great laboratory and the opportunity to innovate there is definitely there. If I could just ask you just again then about the fishing gear side of things. That is not covered in the regulations that we are talking about today but as with the wet wipes I am aware that there is a significant marine litter issue and also a safety issue. We see pictures all the time of animals being affected by that. I am not aware of which regulations cover that. I do not know if officials have that information just now but I am more than willing to come back and discuss that with you. I have taken a note of that. I do not know if officials have any specific comment on fishing gear at this time or whether we should come back to the member on that. Yes, minister I agree that we can come back with further information on that. There are two other comments in relation to earlier questions if the convener is happy with that. Briefly, just on provisional framework to confirm that those have been established to ensure that we have had interim arrangements in place following the end of the transition period and really those arrangements that have been operationalised at official level have provided us with a very good platform to be engaging with counterparts across the UK to discuss the impacts of the internal market act. Just to pick up the earlier point in terms of impacts across the supply chain I did not get a chance to come in there. We will certainly be very happy to provide some further information on that in terms of the full business regulatory impact assessment to clarify that the impacts across the supply chain in effect could be identified at three potential levels at the point of producing items, distributing items and then supplying those items to end users. The full business impact assessment includes the Scottish firm's impact and we engage specifically with a number of organisations to inform that. Full details, as I say, are set out in the Bria. As the minister noted, businesses generally in our consultations to date have expressed support for the proposals and the headlines from the Bria. I think the expectation is that Scottish polymer producers would have likely minimal impact manufacturers if they do manufacture some of the items that are affected. There would be potentially some minimal impact, however there are also opportunities as well, particularly as some of the manufacturers would develop alternative. It looks like we have a technical issue with one of our panel members online. Mark, do you have a supplemental or other question? If not, I believe Liam Kerr has a supplemental. Yes, thank you, convener. That was unfortunate, I was very interested in what Janet was saying there, so hopefully we'll get that back shortly. Minister, I understand the intention is to publish guidance to help those affected by the regulations. What is the current status and timing of that guidance, do you know? My understanding, I know officials can correct me on the specific date for that. That's right, minister. The guidance is published online. It's published in draft form. We're working to continue to engage to ensure that guidance is robust. The final version of that guidance is published on 1 June when the regulations come into force. Thank you. Minister, you said earlier that the regulations are part of a wider policy approach. As part of that, the deposit return scheme will be supplement the regulations as well. To help the committee with its work planning, when can we expect to see the legislation to introduce the deposit return scheme? I'm afraid I don't have a timeline for that just now. I'll be making an announcement to Parliament on that imminently as soon as I possibly can. We are all aware of the urgency of getting that scheme implemented for Scotland, and I am working on it very hard, but I'm afraid I haven't got a timeline today. I completely understand. No, you don't have a specific timeline. Do you think that it will be this side of the summer recess like June next year? Or do you think that we're looking at a potentially longer wait for the legislation to be introduced? I will come and make an announcement to Parliament on that. I intend to do that to update Parliament on that. I hope that that will be possible. That is great. I believe that there are no further questions. That brings us to the end of this session. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. Thank you to your colleagues online for joining the committee. I will now suspend the meeting for a changeover of panel. Thank you. Welcome back everyone. Our next item is the consideration of a statutory instrument on the Land Reform Scotland Act 2016 in register of persons holding a controlled interest in land amendment regulations 2021. I welcome Mari McAllan, Minister for Environment and Land Reform. I also welcome officials joining us remotely. Fiona Taylor, Anna Leslie and Kirsti Slee. Thank you very much everyone for joining us this morning. This instrument is laid under the affirmative procedure which means that Parliament must approve it before it comes into force. Following this evidence session, the committee invited at the next agenda item to consider a motion to approve the instrument. I will now invite the minister to make a short opening statement with regard to the instrument. Minister, over to you. Thanks very much convener and good morning to you and good morning to the committee. I am very pleased to be here with you this morning to bring or to help bring the new register of controlled interests in land one step closer to that go live date which is of course 1 April 2022. As members will know, the register itself presents a huge step forward in delivering transparency by making clear the identity of those who are making decisions about land in Scotland. The register itself was a commitment from the Land Reform Act 2016 and the principle regulations implementing it were passed unanimously by the Parliament in February of this year. Passed unanimously no less after eight committee sessions and I suggest that you take the opportunity to thank your predecessor committee for the commitment and scrutiny that they offered to the regulations. Just by very quick way of reminder of what the register does it will complement information which is already available in the land register and the savings register about the owner of land with information about associates i.e. those who have an influence on the owner and decisions about how the land is used. It will create greater transparency it will create greater transparency than any other part of the UK and take us to the forefront of Europe in that regard. From my days as a commercial property lawyer I know just how useful that will be. The policy is unanimously agreed but the SSI before the committee this morning is to address a very technical flaw which has originated in the interaction between trust law on the one hand and convening law and the registers of Scotland on the other and it concerns the situation where trustees resign or die in as simple terms as it is possible to use and I hope that this is clear the flaw means that when a trustee named on the trust documentation and registered in the land register or the savings register as the owner either dies or resigns there will be no registrable recorded person for the purposes of the new register. That's largely because for the purposes of the regulations the recorded person flows from the land register and the responsibility to identify the associates flows from the recorded person and for those who know trust law the problem there is that you automatically cease to be owner or a trustee on death or resignation but that doesn't correlate with the land register which requires it convenes so it's very difficult to describe the complexity of it but it's necessary to give rise to the original policy intent because tackling the opaqueness of trust law was one of the original intent of the register itself. The register has been subject to significant policy development parliamentary scrutiny but it was in the workshops run with registers with Scotland to facilitate the IT build of the register that this small flaw was identified. We've shared the proposed SSI with a multitude of stakeholders including the Law Society of Scotland the Scottish Property Federation the Land Commission Community Land Scotland, Scottish Land and Estates none of whom raised any concerns so it's necessary to it's a small tweak it's necessary to give rise to a very ambitious piece of land law and I should be very grateful if the committee would propose it propose that it's approved Thank you very much Minister, we'll now move on to questions from members of the committee in relation to the instrument and I will pass over to Mark Ruskell Yeah thanks I remember those 8 sessions fondly and I don't remember this issue ever coming up but it's interesting that it's come up through the extensive IT build as an issue with that due diligence I suppose it seems like a very logical loophole just to close I suppose my question is where are we in terms of the timescale now for the rollout of this register and indeed building a seamlessness for the public and users of these multiple registers that they can then come together to a portal and they can find out who owns land and who's influencing the ownership and management of that land in a way that makes sense to ordinary people that don't have the benefit of experiencing a convincing and trust law and everything else I'm not sure I would call it benefit No, you're absolutely right so part of the reason that we're bringing this now and that we're keen to have this solved now is to allow that seamlessness with the register due to go live from April next year so if we can overcome the issue that's been identified we are still on track for the opening of the register in April next year and we could have potentially considered sorting a loophole like this after the fact but it is about that deliberate intent to make this a smooth transition to the creation of the register which is why we're bringing it now So we're still on track with the original date then of April That's it for me Very good, I believe I have no more questions That brings us on to agenda item 5 which is formal consideration of motion 2176 calling for the net zero energy and transport committee to recommend approval of the draft land reform Scotland Act 2016 register of persons holding a controlled interest in land amendment regulations 2021 I invite the minister to move the motion Moved, convener I invite contributions from members I see that members don't have any additional contributions to make I would invite the minister to provide additional information if she so wishes, if not she can finally move the motion Fantastic, the question then is that motion 2176 in the name of the minister for environment and land reform be approved are we all agreed? Excellent, we are agreed the committee will report on the outcome of this instrument in due course and I invite members to delegate authority to me as convener to approve a draft of the report for publication It's so approved Minister, that brings this session to an end Thank you very much to yourself and your officials for appearing before the committee this morning, thank you I will now suspend this meeting before we have a further changeover of session Thank you very much Welcome back everyone The first petition we will consider is petition 1872 to improve the reliability of island ferry services This petition was lodged by Liz McNichol in May 2021 and calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to urgently ensure that all islanders have access to reliable ferry services and I thank the petitioner for lodging the petition I invite members to note paper 6 which provides some background information and reminds us of our options in relation to petitions One item to note with respect to the challenges experienced in ferry services across Scotland recently is the fact that Audit Scotland is undertaking a substantial inquiry into ferry services in a number of areas That report is due to be published in March 2022 and the first step that the committee can consider in relation to the petition is to write to the Scottish Government asking what steps are being taken to address the challenges being experienced by island communities and others with regard to ferry services Are members agreed with that approach and are there particular issues that members would like to be addressed in the letter to the Scottish Government Collette Notwithstanding the report that will come out from Audit Scotland I think that it is incumbent on us as a committee to ensure that some of the other challenges are addressed as well and that may be a case of writing to CalMac himself in terms of how accessible it is for the people given such a lifeline for the communities within our islands to access the ferry services in terms of what we are doing about camper vans emergency accessibility to get to hospital on the mainland as well and also the white vans in terms of accessing it to ensure that we are underpinning their economies as well I completely agree with that Fiona in terms of other issues we are looking at writing to the Scottish Government we are looking at writing to CalMac and then depending on the response we can have an evidence session depending on the response from the Scottish Government and from CalMac Clearly the petition was from me but as we know there are ongoing and serious issues that Islanders are experiencing we can look at the Audit Scotland report which will be about the review of the initial arrangements and learnings in terms of procurement and management of projects in terms of the current ferry services if we should ask the minister is there anything in advance of the Audit Scotland report he could indicate the steps that are being taken to improve the lifeline and current ferry services and I think particularly looking at the response of the spring and summer season because clearly the petitioner was writing and with reference to some of the impacts on tourism but I think we have to look at things and ask them to look at both the lifeline issues addressed by Collette but the implications going forward and similar issues to CalMac because it's good to see that this week they've got half price costs and tickets for schools and activities on the mainland that's a long standing issue that's good to see but there may be other practical steps taken and we need to make sure that that's put on the record and really understood and if we need to come back on that but the minister obviously may want to come back to us in advance of the Audit Scotland report if there is anything substantial that they can announce to improve the lifeline services that they'd agree with those points Monica Lennon I agree with the points that colleagues have made so I think it would be good to write to both the Government and to CalMac I agree with the deputy convener that the issues raised by the petitioner which dates back to May are fairly urgent and we can't wait until after the Audit Scotland report which will look at perhaps a narrower set of issues that the committee takes for their action and I just want to thank the petitioner for bringing this matter to the Parliament's attention Thanks very much Monica Liam Kerr, please I have nothing to add to the very important comments that have already been made I agree with all the comments that colleagues have made so far I think one important part of access is about the cost particularly for those who are vulnerable and can't afford regular travel and I know that many young people on the islands use a ferry service in the way that people on the mainland might use a bus service so it would be useful to know what consideration Scottish Government has given to that we've got the roll out of concessionary travel for under 22 starting in January on the buses but interesting to know if the Government's done any analysis of cost of extension of that for ferries and just within the scope of the fair fairs review as well which was announced several weeks ago in detail how that will look at the structuring of ferry prices and how that impacts on people who are struggling maybe That's a very good point Mark Thanks for that Does any other member have any other thoughts? I think we're agreed in terms of the next approach to write what will probably be quite a lengthy letter to the Scottish Government and a number of those concerns and also a similar letter to CalMac in terms of this line of inquiry I think that this will be an on-going line of inquiry for the committee we don't want to duplicate some of the work being done by Audit Scotland but at the same time as you said Monica I think it's important to take up the concerns raised in the petition and to see what the response is from the Scottish Government and CalMac I turn to petition 1815 Translocate protected beavers to reduce licensed killing This petition was lodged by Steve Michael Wright on behalf of Trees for Life in August 2020 It's calling on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to initiate a programme to translocate protected beavers to suitable habitats to minimise the need to kill animals adversely impacting their members to paper 6 This sets out relevant background information including a highly relevant court case in which the petitioners were involved which concluded recently It also highlights a recently announced new policy on the translocation of beavers By way of background NatureScot were in touch with the clerks yesterday afternoon They comment in relation to paragraph 7 of the clerks paper that they take a slightly different interpretation of the court judgment in relation to paragraph 7 and they would prefer the first sentence of paragraph 7 to read as follows The judgment ruled that NatureScot aired in law by not setting out the reasons why it was issuing the management licences I provide members with that background to simply put on record NatureScot's views in relation to that court case Members should note that some developments have happened since the petition was lodged The Scottish Government has recently announced that they will begin to identify new sites for the translocation of beavers and there will be a consultation with local communities who may be affected to identify and mitigate possible areas of conflict In addition to that NatureScot is currently in the process of drafting guidance which will be used to show future consultees how they will handle translocation applications how their views can be presented and what would be expected from a competent and fair consultation exercise With that background I invite thoughts from committee members in terms of how we can respond to the petition and what we should be highlighting to, for example, the Scottish Government and NatureScot Mark, you would like to come in Thank you, convener First thing I should say is congratulations to the petitioners because they have now got the change in government policy and translocations are now happening There was one that happened yesterday in the Stirling area so this is now happening which is great There is some full-on work that is needed on the back of this I think, convener I think that writing to the Scottish Government would be useful but I do think that writing to NatureScot to get more detail about how they see the change in the beaver management framework going forward that would be useful particularly looking at existing licences for lethal control looking at how translocations can be funded as well how the process can be streamlined I know that some of that will be coming through forthcoming guidance but I suppose I would be reluctant to close this petition quite yet because you could look at this and say that much everything that the petitioners have asked for is now happening but I think that there is probably some future issues around guidance and the management framework that need to be followed up on to ensure that we are actually going to get substantial change here I would agree with that I think that your point about the financial implications of translocations is an important one as well Is there adequate budget in place because I would imagine this would impose some additional requirements in this new policy area Do other members like Monica, you would like to come in Yes, thank you I'm not sure if Kieran Jenkins from Channel 4 is aware of our discussion this morning but members might want to look at a very lovely Twitter thread including a video of the first family of beavers in Scotland to be moved to their new home so definitely agree with Mark Ruskell there's some good news to be seen there but like Mark I also have some questions about how this will be operationalised any sort of resource and funding requirements Maybe just to ask Nature Scotland and the Scottish Government for their response to the recent court ruling I think that there might be some matters there that could be open to different interpretation and maybe questions from a landowner perspective as well about any compensation around adaptation measures 115 beavers were shot and killed in Scotland last year that's about 10 for the population and although there's a change in policy there is still scope for licensing around a lethal measure so again just to get a better sense of what that's going to look like going forward Thank you very much Monica I agree with that Do other members have additional contributions? The other action I think we should take also is to write to the rain committee to inform them of what we're doing in this area and to make sure that we are given the overlap in the remit between the committees to make sure that we are co-ordinated with whatever work the rain committee may be undertaking in this area Fiona, do you want to come in? I think we're agreed a significant course of action we can take to follow up on this petition and I look forward to working with committee members in that respect Given that we have now dealt with two petitions that ends the public session and the public part of this committee meeting Thank you very much