 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. For the last several weeks, the country has been discussing a uniform civil code for which a draft still doesn't exist. Why is this draft so much in discussion without existing? We are going to discuss this issue with Mr. Javed Anand. He's been an activist against Communism for several decades and he's going to try and explain what the responses to this discussion could be, why they matter and especially for the Muslim communities of India. Mr. Javed Anand, thank you very much for joining NewsClick for this very crucial issue. We have a discussion going around all over the country about a uniform civil code for which there is no draft. So I just want to ask you why are we discussing it? Good question but if I may seek your indulgence for a moment. I was part of an organization called Muslims for Secular Democracy which was formed in 2003 and it had been reincarnated in 2016 as Indian Muslims for Secular Democracy. Before the 2004 elections, the BJP again talked about the uniform civil code as being part of the agenda. On behalf of Muslims for Secular Democracy, we send a telegram to the then Union Home Minister Mr. Adwani saying we are very interested in the uniform civil code. Can we please have a draft? Have a look at a draft if you have one. But that was 2004, today is 2023 and still there is no draft in sight. Now of course we have one from Uttarakhand which we still don't know what it looks like but there have been reports and papers. So here's the thing that you have written recently in the Indian Express about how this is a sort of majoritarian tactic and that no but people should try not to fall into this trap. But the question you also raise is that on the one hand you have women who want a gender just law and on the other hand you have a government which weaponizes the law against the communities. So my question is how do you escape this pitfall? It is not just women but a lot of men, progressive men also want to see a gender just religion neutral uniform civil code. The 21st law commission had made certain recommendations which said that a uniform civil code is neither necessary nor desirable at this stage but they have suggested changes in codification and different personal laws to make them more gender just. No action on that was taken of course. So that is one part of the story. The same government that is now talking about the uniform civil code they've been in power since 2014 what prevented them all these years from implementing it that is one part of the question. The other part of the question is that they know I mean that whether we will actually have a uniform civil code this time around remains to be seen but this has been the tactic since 1998. They raised the issue of bogey of the uniform civil code. The Muslim clergy kind of goes up in arms crying out Sharia and danger, we will not tolerate any interference in our religion from the judiciary, from the government, from the support etc etc and their purpose is serve because then the message goes out to their constituency and their constituency they constantly thank them. So look Muslims don't believe in the law of the land they want their own Sharia and that kind of adds to their board bank that is it. At the same time there is also this unfortunate thing that the secular parties have never taken any initiative whatsoever in nudging if nothing else the Muslim community saying that look you know that they have been reformed in the even if insufficient they have been reformed in the Hindu personal law they've been reformed in the Christian personal law there have been reforms in very many Muslim countries same things same Sharia that they are talking about here but here the Ulama the all India personal law board the Jamaat islami the jamed ulama in and the whole lot of them refuse to take a single step so if you're not going to do it somebody else is going to do it unfortunately it's not the secular parties because it is a secular issue the question of gender justice is a secular issue it's not a communal issue but the BJP finds it very convenient to its own political agenda so we are in this pitfall if you like but the important point is that progressions should not keep quiet at least they should kind of put forward the this thing and ask for a draft where is the draft. Right what would a gender just religion neutral law look like can you go into some of the details which have been actually discussed for over two decades now we've been talking about what that law would look like but just for our viewers once again to recap what that would look like well I have no expert on family laws generally or personal laws generally but I can talk about in the context of the existing Muslim personal all right for example there was I mean until a few years ago triple talak which means the male husband's right to divorce his wife in an instant without any reason on a whim that fortunately has gone but there is still is the issue of polygamy and the issue is not how many Muslim men have two wives or three wives or whatever it is but how can it be justified at all so there is polygamy there is the shameful practice of halala which for your view viewers benefit halala means that if a man and a woman if in a pit for example a husband kind of divorces his wife and the next moment he regrets it the maulvi will tell him that sorry it's too late the only way possible for you to reunite is for her to marry somebody else and there are halala centers in this country and in the uk and in pakistan and in many other places which organizes one night weddings right for the simple purpose of that marriage getting consummated in that second husband divorces her so that you can you can reunite this is a horrible simple practice which needs to go there is the question of unequal share in inheritance which needs to go there's the question of custody of the woman's right to the wife's right divorce wife's right to custody of children that is that Muslim men and women cannot adopt right at the same time in my knowledge is retrieval breakdown of marriage no for divorce the the provision exists only in muslim personal now this is something that should be included elsewhere too i mean in in our uniforms will put for example this is something that should apply to all communities it would be a good progressive measure now you know one of the things about the ucc is that every conversation happens in a context you mentioned a lot of other countries muslim majority countries islamic countries where actually laws have been reformed and changed and modernized in india is a difficult because of the circumstances you have a muslim population which is in a minority compared to the hindu majority and then you have a certain kind of government in place is that what is actually always in the way of reform we were to put forward that argument for the period 2014 onwards what about the period between 1947 and 1914 those were long many years muslim women's organizations in particular for the last 20 25 years have been kind of shouting from the rooftops the kind of prepared one of the muslim women's organizations for example is prepared a draft for the codification of muslim personal because muslim personal as it exists is not even codified so it's a subject to the interpretation of the local movie or mukti or whatever causing so but but there's been no response to that these times has forever been that sharia laws are divine laws which is rubbish this is not true but because they claim to be divine therefore they are god given and therefore they cannot change till dooms they come in which case what are we to make of these muslim majority countries including countries which call themselves islamic have they gone out of the fold of islam is that what the jamaica islam and the only a personal board wants to tell us right sir so you know the point is also that how long can women wait there are progressive women muslim women's groups who are you know this time turning around and saying that look well it doesn't matter what kind of government we have if there is a shot at some reform some change some amendment let us take this chance do you think that's a valid logic i think so i mean how long how long should they wait how long should they wait they waited for 20 years more over 20 years i mean i can remember from the period 1980s onwards then 15 plus 23 we are talking about close to what 40 plus around 40 years that's right and i mean by this logic of this is not the best time when will be the best time for gender justice there never will be a best time for gender justice maybe the best time will be when there is a draft which is actually discussed openly in the public and and everybody is involved in that process is is that a precondition well that i mean that that's the first step quite honestly if the purpose of this thing is not to use it only as a kind of stick to beat persons with the uh the same prime minister who talked about our muslim bahan beti yes there's nothing about bilki justice the bilki's bano says nothing about to the wives and sisters and daughters of those who get lynched there's nothing about when websites for auction of muslim women are opened up nothing when there's called for genocide of muslim for economic boycott of muslims so therefore it raises a whole lot of suspicion quite understandably in the mind of a lot of people leave aside the person on board and people critics like that who have who are forever in office but even in the mind of progressive muslims there is a question of what kind of a draft will these what kind of uniform civil court will these people bring now the newspaper suggests that adi wasis will be excluded from the ambit of this thing yes one says something about christians being excluded what kind of a uniform will we have this is a this one is included and that one is excluded so the draft is the starting point certainly without a draft we are we are i mean all talking in the air so it seems also from the news reports which you just referred to that the uniform civil court is actually not a uniform it's not supposed to be a uniform civil court it's just supposed to be tinkering with or changing muslim practices and muslim law and muslim law and and then making a big noise about it prime minister is very concerned particularly concerned about muslim bhai and bhai as a self-professed or self-proclaimed but only so far as family laws are concerned outside family laws muslim bhai and bhai do not matter so it does look like i mean it's going to end up actually meaning effectively some changes the reforms and muslim personal law but that can hardly be called uniform civil court if i'm getting you right this government despite the communal rhetoric and despite its actions and inaction when it came to the muslims and what was done to them they still seem to have latched on to something which a section of muslims would agree with and therefore find that support maybe it's a section of muslim women maybe it's the progressive muslim groups which will think that okay this is the best time for us and so they are in a position to maybe push through certain changes see they don't need muslim men muslim women or whoever to do that they have enough majority in parliament to steamroll their agenda if they want wish to i mean whether it gets challenged later on in the courts remains to be seen so they don't need anybody but if that were to happen if that were to happen i think a lot of muslim women and even men from the same men would welcome it to the extent that polygamy is now gone that now muslim women by law have the right to equal share in property that would be well would there also be a conservative backlash like we saw after Shah Bano i do not see that happening at all it is quite clear reading from the statement after statement i've been following this issue quite closely and everywhere the point is being made we must not take this issue to the streets all right for quite some time now muslims are reliant that taking issues to the street whether it was the Shah Bano case or the Babri Masjid case plays against them plays into the hands of the uh hindu majoritarians so taking the streets is not an option what they will say like somebody was saying the other day is that uh if a husband marries a second wife again even against the wishes of the first wife if the wife still believes in the sharia and then it was the maulvi sahab will tell him tell her you don't make a noise don't complain let the laws say whatever it does right just changing the law doesn't change society but it also does in the sense that the instances that triple talak have come come down dramatically though there is one thing for which there is very little statistics i believe that a lot of muslim husband would divorce their wives are simply instead of divorcing their wives and attacking the law uh criminal law they are deserting them and for the deserted wife there is no effective recourse at all in our country not for hindu deserted women not for my final question i guess would be is it okay to do the right thing or a part of the right thing but in the wrong way would you wouldn't would it work out it seems as if the government is doing the right thing or a part of the right thing a part of the reform that for the for the wrong reasons exactly is that fair is that acceptable it would be acceptable i'm saying for a lot of uh uh progressive muslim men and women only because there is no option left the olima have left us simply no option whatsoever since 1947 that i have to repeat what i said earlier also it's not just a question of what has happened since 2014 wherever you what were you doing went for 40 years muslim women and some muslim men at least who are arguing for reforms codification of muslim the personal law you just shoot your gun and even after the incident the as you might be aware even after the personal law was triple talak was uh outlawed by the supreme court before the criminalizations like happened the all-india personal law board at his board meeting said that while we respect the verdict of the supreme court sharia position still stands that if her husband has divorced his wife uh in a fit of temper uh in a fit of temper or whatever it is that is still valid so from looked at from their perspective a woman who's been divorced through triple talak will keep quiet and not go and complain anywhere and the law will stay in its place except that that is not happening too much i think too many muslims are the story part of the story too many muslims realize the implications of triple talak and the kind of criminal law that it might uh trigger into action but in the current scenario minus absent a draft does it seem likely that this will actually leave the political realm and enter into the actual hard work of drafting reforms and making them acceptable discussing them that's not going to happen as far as you can see yeah but it looks to me that either which way the bjp stands to gain it can it can either kind of turn around and say listen you know we want this law it has been part of our agenda we are concerned about our muslim ban bitties but look the muslims are opposing and look at the secular parties look at the secular parties you know they don't want agenda just law and that will kind of be politically derives the political gain out of it or they can implement it but it seems very unfair to women non muslim women who are also in need of some legislative changes which would help them so i think if the draft is kind of a not of the kind that people like you and i and we agree with there is still the court of india supreme court of india where we can take our grievance to and hopefully we'll get rid of them from there but that is still a step away we still don't know what kind of a draft we are to expect right mr anand thank you very much for joining us thank you thank you