 There was a wingfest today? I've been. That's where I was today. You were at the wingfest? I've got the hats in my bag. Would you eat a parrot? They're like a pretty intelligent bird. I'm just wondering... You can acknowledge what the chicken feels, but you've got to also acknowledge, like, does that matter? Does what a chicken feels matter? There's birds that can do things that I can't do. Exactly, and are they more intelligent than you? Is that the hierarchy? Should they eat you? Do you believe human beings have a superiority complex like? I believe we have a superiority complex. I also believe that we have superior to other beings. Alright, we're at the Derby wingfest. It's incredibly loud here, but I've got a different idea. I think that's enough, eh? We're going to see if we can get... ...persuade people to eat VFC instead of tortured animals. Can you hear about the wingfest? It's just around the corner. I just went there. They're eating 60,000 wings in two days. Two little wings, though. Yeah, well, I used to too. I was a meat eater for most of my life. But I don't like this. This is gash-chambered birds. This is a breed of shed. That's where their mums and dads come from, actually, of the birds that people eat. This is so common, bro. This is what people are eating. You're joking. Yeah, they're only three weeks old at this stage, but they look like adults, but they're not. They're still little babies in their mind, because they're only babies. Obviously, like, your life over a chicken, if there's a gun to my head, I'm going to choose you to survive, right? But there's the choice between this suffering and choosing something different to eat, you know what I mean? I think they're worth more in a hierarchy than my taste buds, you know what I mean? It's just easy. It's just easy access in it, so I have to eat what tastes good to get me. Yeah, but, bro, if you said to me, what would you eat right now, I'd go straight to Subway and get a vegan sub with vegan meatballs. Oh, yeah. And then they've also got vegan chicken there. Right now, you can go to McDonald's, right, and get the McClarn. It's a vegan... I'm taking the McClarn. Have you had it? It's good? Yeah, I always had it. That's the only thing that happened with my dollars now. Really? It's vegan, but that's the only thing that happened with my dollars. Well, that's gone. Did it? Yeah. Yeah, but that's how... this is how easy it is, right, to avoid that. To avoid that, you have to care a lot about it. For example, like, if I step on a nun, obviously I'd rather not kill it in the same way I'd rather not kill a chicken, but I don't feel too bad about it. Yeah, but you don't go around like this. True, true. No, I don't. If you see an ansnes, if you see an ansnes, you wouldn't go like, start jumping on it. No, but at the same time, it's a deliberate thing. I do think, like, life is precious, and I do think, like, if you were to eat meat at certain occasions, say, like Christmas, by, like, almost sacrificing the chicken, to eat the chicken, it almost feels like a... not a prayer, but it almost feels like a good sacrifice... There's you, and there's another party who's not consenting. There is, but I don't feel that... So it's like against their will. I'm talking about a hierarchy. There might be a hierarchy between you and a child. You're more intelligent than a child, you know, but that doesn't mean that... No, no, but I don't want to get confused. The child is still in my hierarchy, in the level of hierarchy. Well, how do you determine a hierarchy? Because I'll tell you right now, a baby, an infant, is not very intelligent. You probably do it just from potential, you do it from current state of mind. Hey, who's measuring this? It's up to you. Yeah, exactly. So we, the oppressor of the animals, dictate who's better and who's more superior, who gets to live and who gets to die. So I decide a chicken's worth nothing. I can kill him when I want on a Christmas day, just for my taste. So when people have that power, the world is always going to be messed up, isn't it? Because people have had that power over other people before, haven't they? Just look in history. It's exactly the same mentality. It's the same mentality. I don't know. It's a hierarchy. We're superior. We're superior. Look, it's always happened, humans on humans. We're superior mindset. I do believe we're superior to chickens. But in what way? In what we bring to the world. But some people don't bring more than others. Are they superior to them? The worst person in the world is brought something better than a chicken. Hitler was pretty intelligent, educated, right? Intelligent person. Are you choosing to survive Hitler or a chicken? Kill Hitler. Kill Hitler, hey. I mean, like, if you don't want World War II to happen, but you could argue that if World War II didn't happen, there might have been a worse war. It's inevitable. You could have done that route. I don't want Jews to die. I don't want Gypsies to die. You don't want bad... Exactly. So some people's not worth more than the dirt on my shoe. If it was a fly and Hitler... I'm choosing the fly to live in... I feel like a human life is valued more. No matter what badness they've done, I feel like it's still valued more than a chicken. Yeah, I disagree. I disagree. We are doing horrible things to these animals by the billion, right? And they did nothing wrong to us. And our argument is we're superior to them. That is our argument. We are superior to them. Do you think that's an ethical argument to do this to the birds? I've thought about this a lot. Do you think it's ethical to kill a chicken, to eat it if it's had a good life? And I'm struggling to overcome that barrier. So what do you think it's ethical to kill, to kill, basically, essentially? Yeah, because I feel like we've raised them for a purpose, for one. Yeah, but I could raise people for a purpose and kill them. But that doesn't fit into the hierarchy. So I'm talking about the hierarchy. Yeah, if you define the hierarchy, then I'll be able to understand more. So what is this hierarchy? Explain to me. Is it intelligence? Intelligence plays a part. But I mean, obviously, there's stupid people and there's smart people. Exactly. I'm not saying you should kill the stupid people. No, no. Who's rights matter more? Say he's got an IQ of 180. And I've got an IQ of 50. I've never met this guy. He met us just as much as me. I've got, basically, the intelligence of a chicken. Yeah. You still wouldn't kill me and say, You're a human. You've passed the criteria. What if I had a good one? Okay, so the criteria is human. If you were disabled, if you were disabled and you're essentially a, I don't want to say an advantage to the state. I get you. I get you. I understand it. I still value you. So it's arbitrary. So basically you're saying the thing that you value is this category called human. And is it the DNA of a human being? It's being a human. I think being a person of an intelligence is a... No, we said intelligence is not the factor here. So you can't use intelligence now? No, I think you can because it's also part of the potential. Did you just say to me about the people who have a disability? Yeah, but they were born with the potential. No, some of them are born without. You would still give them rights, wouldn't you? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, of course. So it's not intelligence for you. It's this category, human. I do think it is part intelligence. Because I just... Okay, so if I wasn't intelligent, so let's just say I was as intelligent as a chicken. Would you be okay with killing me for a sandwich? No, because you're a human. So it's not intelligence. Because you qualify in that quota. I get what you're saying. So what I was trying to do there is remove intelligence and see if you'd still kill me and it's no. So it's not intelligence. It's not one aspect. It's a multi-faceted argument. But it's definitely not intelligence. No, but no it is because intelligence is part of the multi-faceted argument. No, because if we remove it, it still wouldn't kill me. Say if you're a chicken. I'll kill you. So let's look at... Let me ask you this. I'm going to flip it. What do chickens have in common with us? They have consciousness. Exactly. So they're conscious and aware of their surroundings and do they suffer? Of course they suffer. So they feel pain, they suffer. Do they have a desire for well-being? There's an animal. Exactly. Most animals do. Chickens definitely do. People suffer as well. It's a lot of life. Of course. So we have that in common. That's what I'm trying to find, common ground here. Like a chicken, if they knew they were going to die, they would try to avoid it, wouldn't they? I get your argument. When you've got other options, there's no legitimate argument you can raise. No ethical justification. I understand that. What also is part of it for me is, I do think this is almost a beauty and consuming a living thing for a special occasion, because it's almost like a celebration of life. Even though you're killing life, which is a weird thing. It's like a... Yeah, I think that's just your conditioning, bro. I think that you've been conditioned somewhere along the line that, you know, this sacrifice, this, like, is a good thing. But the animal is not a willing participant there. It's not a willing participant. Help yourself, my friend. Help yourself. I'm an activist. Oh, so you're against all this chicken and all that, yeah? Yeah, yeah. There was a wingfest today, around the corner. I've been. Oh, that's where I was today. You were at the wingfest? I got the hats on my back. No, I missed it. Are you serious? You went to the wingfest? I just went there, too. You got the wingfest hat on. You paid 20 quid. It was ridiculous. So how many wings did you eat? So we tried one of each. So one bowl of each? Yeah. And I... Wait, I want to count. Give me a number. Give me a number. Was it eight? That's four birds. The thing is, it's reckless. It's reckless eating that amount of birds. Birds. Birds. And that's what I was trying to get you to the point of, like... Sacrificing. It's not the longest sacrifice. It's just pure reckless. I'm just going to ask you this one question, because I've been dying to ask... It wasn't worth killing the chickens there. Can I ask you, would you eat a parrot? You know, I've got a parrot here that can say, hey, what's your name? I mean, like... What's your name, bro? I'm Jordan. They're like, hey, Jordan. Hey, Jordan. They're like a pretty intelligent bird. I'm just wondering. In the context of if I've got other food around, probably not. If I was starving, yeah. No, you are vegan chicken around. You go to the supermarket. There's no reason to. There's no reason to eat chicken either. So, like... This is what I'm saying. There's no argument that I can say that I'll combat yours. The vegan argument is a sound argument. So why aren't you vegan? Why aren't you vegan? Sorry to cut you off. Because it's a laziness. I assume it's a laziness. Bro, you know when I went vegan? When I was fresh out of jail, still uneducated, fresh out of jail, ex-alcoholic and drug addict. I had no money. I went vegan because it was the right thing to do. That also gave you purpose. Yeah. It gives you like... Yeah, of course. It did. It did give me a bit of purpose. But also I do truly believe in it. It's not like some ideology that I don't truly believe in because this is reality. I know it's not worth killing something. I always think if I would serve some food now, would I want to kill it to eat it? Exactly. There's a bird right here. Nine times out of ten, it's not. Maybe on Christmas, like, yeah, I've f***ed the circus. Do you know what I mean? Do you think most people at that wing first, right? Okay, do you think... If I gave them a knife, a little bird like this, do you think they'd be able to cut their head off? Out of all of them? How many? What percentage do you think of the people? Not a lot. Not a lot. I remember I was in... I did some volunteer work in Tanzania. We got to kill a chicken for, like, the dinner kind of thing. It was quite surreal. It was the first time that I'd killed something, personally, and then ate it. It felt good in the sense that, like, I've proved something to myself. Like, I'm willing to accept the fact that I've taken this, like, and ate it. So you faced it, yeah. And I could stomach that. But did you feel a certain way when you cut through their throat? You were justifying it to yourself, but did you feel like, oh, I'm really looking forward to slicing this chicken's throat? No one looks forward to these things. And how does the chicken feel, do you think? Do you think the chicken was scared? I think it gets to the point where you can acknowledge where the chicken feels, but you've got to also acknowledge, like, does that matter? And that's the crux of it. Does what a chicken feels matter? Yeah, yeah. And to some extent, obviously I care, because I wouldn't want to eat meat that's raised in a chicken or dumplings. So you do care what they feel to a certain extent? Yeah. But I just wanted to know, that individual that you cut their throat, how do you think they felt in that moment when they were about to die? I don't think they have the capacity to think, oh my God, I'm gonna pick and die. You think they can get scared? But they might not know exactly what's gonna happen to them, but you know they're gonna be scared, eh? Like, a little baby wouldn't know they're gonna die. They don't even understand death. You slash their throat and they're pissing blood out of their throat. You know that would be terrified in their last moments, yeah? Yeah, I mean there is an almond of that. The end is never good for anyone. So with science, they're saying we can grow meat in a lab. Petri dish, yeah, yeah. Cool. I'm cool with it. You're cool with that. Stop doing it. As long as it's not attached to a sentient conscious being that had to be tortured and killed, they can grow your flesh in a bloody Petri dish, but if they start killing you for it, then I'm gonna speak up. It's not about the meat for me, it's where the meat came from, who it came from. We're literally growing food off of conscious living beings that deserve the right to exist. Where do you draw the line on what sentient it is? There's a certain point where it becomes gray. A lot of things haven't been studied but many insects and oysters, I think that's where it becomes, the lines become blurred. The animals that we generally eat, most of the fish, chickens, cows, pigs, lambs, there's 100% say that they are sentient conscious beings. The hierarchy only matters when it's like there's a burning house situation. You gotta save your mum or a chicken or a dog and a chicken. That's when that really matters. When you're talking about slaughtering a bird for that sandwich, you know what I mean? Or choosing a vegan sandwich, that's the choice. Choose a vegan option or kill the chicken. I think when I'm in a supermarket and there's meat on the shelf, I don't even think of it as meat, I think of it as the animal. I'm gonna chop itself up right now, I'm gonna pick it up because that's essentially the choice you're making. I honestly do think that humans are different to other animals. I think so too. We are obviously different. But it's what we share in common that I care about. Yeah. And that's what I care about, that there's someone inside of them too. I can't argue with you with anything, but I don't know if it's because I'm too lazy or it's how I'm conditioned, how I'm brought up, if there's not enough options out there, but I don't know, I just feel like I'm not ready to give up eating chicken. Another discussion is eggs and dairy. Well, eggs and dairy. I do think I accept vegan debate as fine. The vegetarian debate is also fine, but I do feel like there's an ethical way to obtain their milk and them to continue. Well, there's a way that you can get meat without it being unethical and it's through a lab. Yeah, there is. So there are, of course, there are ways of doing things. What I'm concerned about is what they're doing now in pregnanting cows, taking their calves, and I don't think we should see milk as a product. Like as soon as we saw eggs as food, milk as food, meat as food, that's where industrialised factory farming comes from. Do you agree with the idea that in this context, like being in the UK, it is bad? Whereas if you're in, I don't know, like where I was in Tanzania, for example, and they need a cow, it is part of their daily livelihood. That's a different story. Or do you feel like they shouldn't be using the cow, whatever? When you remove civilisation as it is and comfort, the level of morality that we can sustain in civilisation changes because you're in a survival situation there. Because we're in civilisation and we're comfortable, we approach each other like this. But if we're in a survival situation, we'd probably be trying to shoot each other and rob each other and it could even be that bad that we'd be trying to eat each other. Take away civilisation, take away all the money, take away all the food, I'm starving, I might eat you. So there are situations where morality can't exist as it does. There are different justifications for different situations. I think it's in Islam, people say, I think it's in shala. I mean it's like if God willing or something like that. And that's them saying basically like, oh God wills it, then it will be. And in the same way, humans are God but I'm trying to say like, we have the power, so it will be in that sense. Same we have the ability to and we... We also have the ability to... We have the... We govern them. We have the... Of course, we can protect and the vulnerable. We should protect the vulnerable in society like cows and chickens and children and those who can't defend themselves of course. Like I've got the power to harm a child or harm a dog but I know my power. You're not differentiating it between a human and that's where we disagree because I feel like... Well, when it comes to killing them unjustifiably, no. But like the burning building scenario when there's like choose one or the other that's a different story. You're talking about killing them for a sandwich. That's why I said like wings first is not necessary. Needless. It's humor, it's needless. But what about outside of wind first you go to the supermarket you go there's some chicken I'm going to choose to buy it paying for everything that happens. I think in moderation I don't believe you should eat me every day. It's too much. It's needless. Could I eat dog in moderation if they live the life of a chicken? Obviously you're saying that because like dogs are parents and stuff like that. I would have an issue and then You would have a moral issue? What's the difference between a chicken and a dog? What's the morally significant difference between a chicken and a dog? It's the level of intellect for one. Equal is the intellect of a chicken to or the intellect of a dog. I don't think chickens are as smart as dogs. No, well they are. They are in many ways. What if it was a stupid dog? I agree with you on a lot of things but I will never agree with you that saying that a chicken is a smart dog. No, in many ways like a little baby chick there's some good research on chickens and chicks. Upon hatching a baby chick can recognise their sibling. They know when something has been covered that it hasn't actually disappeared. So they're pretty smart but you said that intelligence is not the moral differentiator between. Thing is in life nothing is ever one sole reason. You don't care about this intelligent things when it comes to dogs versus chickens. You don't care about it when it comes to human beings because it doesn't matter if someone's less intelligent. Doesn't it expose some double standards? Do you feel? Yeah, it does. Because you're applying some logic over here but then when it comes to these food animals you don't... For sure but I mean like I'm not trying to say you're perfect because I know you're not perfect but I mean like humans aren't perfect in general. We're imperfect, yeah. We don't have to do this though. It's on YouTube. Dominion? Dominion, yeah. You watch that? How am I talking to you for bro? Like you already watched it? I was going to tell you to watch it before you went home and that you already... Dominion and honestly it got me thinking like is this the right way and I know it's not the right way but part of it is culture like if I were to walk down this high street now and subway was serving all non-meat alternatives I wouldn't... I'd eat it. Do you know what I mean? I wouldn't really care. It is a cultural thing. So many horrible things have been cultural and are cultural and we never would say because it's cultural it's morally justified you know what I mean? Yeah. Because think of different cultures where they do some horrible things you know what I mean? Well you can only look at like FGM and slavery going back. I've never come across a discussion where a vegan has lost a debate because at the end of the day they're hypothesis is a sound. The thing is people aren't willing to cut out what's culturally like part of them. Yeah. And it takes a big step. You're actually more aware of this topic than a lot of people I speak to. But you're still on autopilot a little bit. Yeah. I mean it is autopilot maybe it's part of denial but I mean I mean it sounds bad me just saying this but when it comes to chickens for example this video I don't care enough. If it was like cows I'd be like I'd buy in more I'd be more of a moral do you know what I mean? Because a bird and a cow is like a mammal looking like a dog plus than a bird and then a fish is even further away from us if they can experience the world they deserve rights because they're a subject you're not your body you're not your brain you're the subject having the experience and that's who deserves the rights. These chickens they're not just flesh and bones there's someone in there experiencing that suffering and that's who deserves the rights. You're saying that their rights should be allowed to be taken for a sandwich when we can eat something else. Say if I own like the chickens I knew there you're going to do? You're going to own these conscious beings in your yard and then do what you want with them? I mean that's a good argument I can't pick holes in your arguments because it makes sense on every level. So like I own a couple of humans in my backyard if I want to do what I want to them I will because there's a hierarchy here what if I had that mentality you'd be like come on man that's not logical do you believe human beings have a superiority complex like? I believe we have a superior Did you hear what you just said? Yeah You said I think we have a superiority complex and I also believe we're superior to other beings I do, yeah I mean in many ways, yes I mean you believe that as well because you believe you're superior than you're also for example because you said there's a gray area Of course you're right you're right, yes I thought that was something that we agree on Yes, you're right I just don't believe that our perceived superiority should justify a mass murder of beings a bird is superior to you because they can fly and you can't fly a fish is superior to you because they've got lateral lines and they can see like a sixth sense in the water there's birds with like a honing radar and they can sense where they are on the earth There's birds that can do things that I can't do Exactly Are they more intelligent than you? No Is that the hierarchy? Should they eat you? Should we chop you up for the birds? The vegan argument is this an argument you can't big holes in it you really can't from an environmental aspect you can't big holes on it from like an ethical or something like that What it boils down to is a cultural thing laziness and just having the ability to go out and do what you do I know you're saying to me or if I want to I can go out and buy all my vegan stuff in the shopping and stuff but when it comes like if I've had a drink and I've come down here I just want to sandwich the level of guilt isn't going to be there Well when I used to drink I used to just walk up to people bang punch them straight in the the level of guilt wasn't there you know and that was cultural for me I come from gang gangland South Australia and the northern suburbs we were stabbing people we were drinking alcohol so that was just the cultural norm for me you would just say look hey that's just not good enough do you think of the victims of you? I think a reason why a lot of people I don't always say hey vegans but they say I'm not doing that I'm not doing this it's because it triggers something inside them that says they're kind of right but I'm willing to admit to it right now and they get defensive and then it's just yeah you don't seem defensive bro you seem a I'm not defensive but like what it is man it's just laziness it's literally laziness I'm could I be more proactive? you could you could probably but like no you could I at the end of the day I guess in my mind I saw pleasure taste over ethics because I don't think that deep into it if you have that mentality where you're just deep in everything it can ruin your life almost and sometimes it's easier especially in this scenario it's just not to block it out just block it out and just like it tastes nice and that's what it is and I I think people like you should be around because it makes people at least other people like me especially become aware I think a lot of people are aware but it's it's challenging them to think about what they're actually doing now this is the English chicken industry we're just at wing fest I'm just showing people what happens in slaughterhouses and factoring farms here this is me feeling the same way oh man do you eat chicken? I do I did I did yeah man it's not this is standard I filmed that's me there this is standard practice in the UK factory in most chicken farms 100% 100% like if you go into 95% of chicken farms here in the UK you'll see dead chickens on the floor suffering chickens like on the cheapest ones you can find like rings around where the drumstick is where they can sit in their own yeah they get hot burns from the ammonia on the floors yeah it's like an abrasive like I've got to go take this man stop paying for it you're a good person you're a good person don't pay for it bro stop giving them your money and they'll stop doing it yeah they only do it because good people give them their money they can't see that side of there's a disconnect there man yeah so make the connection it's easy you can go in there and get a vegan chicken sandwich right now it's everywhere no worries brother take care no worries bro see ya one less chicken eater on earth right now