 So, let me, first of all, welcome you virtually to the Def Con Ethics Village and introduce you briefly to those who will be watching. This is FCC Commissioner Jeffrey Starks. Commissioner Starks was sworn in as an FCC Commissioner on January 30th of 2019. He had previous experience at the FCC helping to lead efforts in the FCC's Enforcement Bureau by, among other things, handling a number of complex investigations. He also has prior Department of Justice experience as a senior advisor to the Deputy Attorney General on a variety of domestic and international matters. And this was all during the Obama administration. And before Commissioner Starks entered federal public service, he practiced law at Williams and Connolly, clerked on the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, and also served as a legislative staffer in the Illinois State Senate and worked as a financial analyst. So thank you again for your time, Commissioner Starks. Let me just briefly say my name is Stephanie Pell. I'm a professor at West Point, and because I work at West Point, I'm always required to say whenever I open my mouth in public that what, even though this is about you, we're going to be talking about your views, anything that should come out of my mouth are my views and do not represent the views of West Point, the Army, or certainly the United States Government. So let me just start with an opening question, Commissioner Starks, for those who may not be terribly familiar with the FCC, could you give us some brief background about its structure and mandate, specifically in reference to the issues we will discuss today? Yes. Well, as always, great to be in dialogue with you, Stephanie. Glad to be joining DEF CON 2020, obviously virtually here this year in the Ethics Village in particular. And so for viewers who might not be familiar with the FCC, it's an independent federal agency established back in 1934 under the Communications Act and were charged with regulating interstate and foreign communications by radio, television, wire, satellite, and cable. And so to the structure of the commission, it's directed by five commissioners, including myself, each commissioner is appointed by the president, subject to Senate confirmation. And because we're an independent agency, only three commissioners can be of the same political party. The president, obviously designating one commissioner as the chairperson, you know, and to the breadth that we serve, we have seven bureaus, 10 offices of career civil servants for the most part, senior engineers, economists, obviously a lot of this is wrapped up in their expertise and experience with communications. And so Congress has given us a significant and specific responsibilities, but broadly, we are regulating the nation's communication networks. And so that includes, you know, promoting deployment of advanced communication services like broadband, like we're going to talk about, ensuring best and highest use of wireless spectrum, administering the Universal Service Fund, which is a fund that ensures access to modern communications with a low income for rural folks, for schools, libraries, regulating foreign access to U.S. communications marketplace. We may get into some of that a little bit later. And then finally, you know, what folks would think of regulating radio and broadcast television. The last thing I kind of focus on rounding this out is, you know, because communications is such a broad term, you know, some folks may think that we have certain authority that really is enough. And so when people think about who regulates Facebook, that is a lot of other people, Department of Justice, the FTC. And so, you know, there are a lot of things that we do. And then we obviously, you know, there are things that we have jurisdiction over, but other folks have other points. And then if you have followed the issue of network neutrality, you know, there is obviously, you know, some fluidity between administrations on what is the extent of the FCC's authority and what's within our jurisdiction. I think we do have authority to enforce network neutrality rules, but some of my, in particular, Republican majority of the FCC disagrees with me. So that's kind of a little bit of the lay of the land as it were. Thanks. So as you acknowledged in more normal times, we would be, you know, meeting in person, having this discussion live in Vegas. So we're not doing that now. We've all had to adapt in a number of ways, moving significant portions of our lives online, including work for those who have college or school, age, children, you know, a good portion, if not all of their education has suddenly become virtual. So I'm wondering how has your focus at the FCC and your work changed since the beginning of COVID? Yeah, it's a great question. You know, in some ways, through a certain lens, you know, the Commission has continued its work. We have all been working remotely since March, and we have had, as were required by statute, we've had monthly open meetings, and we're voting items, and we are proceeding with our work of pace. You know, but in a lot of other ways, in particular, the issue of the digital divide and who has broadband access and who doesn't has been my top priority. But that really has been amplified in a lot of ways. The last few months have laid bare the already cruel reality of the digital divide that millions and millions, tens of millions of Americans don't access, cannot afford broadband connections that they need to telework, to access telemedicine now, to help young people learn, as you mentioned. And addressing this long-running crisis has never been more urgent. When public health requires social distancing, even quarantining, as many of us have been doing, closing the digital divide has become central to our safety, and certainly it's powering our economy. And so, you know, a number of weeks into the crisis, in early March I published an op-ed in the New York Times calling for a connectivity stimulus. We obviously have a lot of ways where we're talking about stimulus for public health, for our economy. I think we need a connectivity stimulus because regulators, industry, we have to and need to even now more so than ever dramatically expand access for broadband during this emergency. Some of those ideas that I laid out initially in March have been implemented. We are leaning into the flexible use of wireless spectrum that's underutilized. Broadband providers have joined the fight, waving some data caps, the Keep America connected pledge, opening Wi-Fi networks. But really, truth be told, Stephanie, it hasn't been enough. And I have called for us to do more. We are- And speaking, if I can just, speaking of doing more, I want to specifically reference a recent, an additional op-ed, a recent one that you co-authored with a number of prominent civil rights leaders, the Reverend Al Sharpton, Vinita Gupta, Mark Morial, and Morita Kohli. And the op-ed for those who haven't seen it is entitled, Broadband Access is a civil right. We can't afford to lose, but many can't afford to have. In that piece, you and your co-authors speak directly to how COVID-19 has exposed this digital divide. And could you talk more about the scope of that digital divide problem? Yeah, happy to. And, you know, like I said, the digital divide was present even before COVID-19, but it has really been exacerbated. And I wanted to emphasize that, you know, the fact of the matter is that the late John Lewis, one of my heroes, said that internet access is the civil rights issue of the 21st century. And I agree. You know, the Communication Act instructs us to make communication service available to all Americans without discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, or sex. And so civil rights leaders have long held government accountable where we have unfulfilled promises. And so closing this digital divide, I was honored, deeply honored to join some of those civil rights leaders talking about how in particular with communities of color, we need to close the digital divide. As we outlined in the op-ed, 34% of African Americans, 39% of Latino adults, 47% of tribal groups, all lack access to broadband connection, significantly disproportionately less so than their white counterparts. And so when you're talking about civil rights issues, we have to have access ubiquitous for all, and it has to be right now. There needs to be a fierce urgency of now that we solve these digital divide issues. And for communities of color, that means reliable and convenient access to educational resources, to workplace materials, telemedicine, like I said. You know, the fact of the matter is that we have, this is a rural issue in some ways, making sure that folks get access everywhere. But the fact of the matter is that we've seen this as well throughout the pandemic that in densely, highly populated urban areas, there are nearly three times as many households that remain unconnected. And that is frequently communities of color. Over 18 million households lack broadband simply solely research estimates because it's too expensive. And so one of the things that I've called for and have worked with Congress on is that for both the emergency and for the longer term, we need to have a more affordable connection for millions of Americans to the internet. We know 50 million plus Americans have filed for unemployment assistance. And so making sure there is an affordable way that they can connect to high quality broadband is going to be important. Something else that I would talk on really quickly here is the Lifeline Program. It's the federal program specifically designed for to provide free or discounted telecom service to low income Americans. We know that this program is grossly underutilized. About 7.5 million Americans are on Lifeline right now, despite over 38 million being eligible. And so we have got to make sure, for example, we know that more Americans are on food assistance on SNAP right now than ever. And if you have food insecurity issues, you probably also have digital insecurity issues. And so I've called for us to better coordinate with USDA that runs SNAP. If you are knocking on the door for help there, we should also make sure that you get connected to the Lifeline Program. And so there's a lot of ways that we need to make sure that our government is not working in silos right now. And I think that's really important. Sure. So these are, you've just listed some very specific prescriptions that you and others in the civil rights community have called for. How supportive in your view as Congress being, what can they do? Yeah, you know, I think in particular, obviously, we are seeing that there is a new COVID. I think it's the fifth part of the package that's being negotiated right now. Broadband has still to date not been included in some of those congressional packages. And so providing more money for E-Rate, another program that we have to provide money to schools. And the fact of the matter is that how is education and schooling being performed right now, it's in people's homes. So again, making sure that there's more money for E-Rate so that we can digitally connect with our youngest learners, including post-secondary Lifeline and focusing on the low income has got to be an additional part of this dialogue. And then the third thing that I have really focused on with folks in Congress is making sure that there is some type of an affordable option that we are starting to think through as well in making sure that we have all houses connected. It's past time for us to connect all Americans and Congress is going to have to help us out. Sure. So you started explaining the digital divide problem and then the prescriptions for solution by referencing the civil rights icon, John Lewis. And I will just note that wonderful quote, access to the internet is the civil rights issue of the 21st century, which you said is in fact, and it's timely and a little chilling the way that you all ended your op-ed. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And when, like I said, when John Lewis speaks, thank God, so many people listen. And so that quote from John Lewis many, many years ago is what really kind of framed for me the ubiquity of broadband access being a civil right. And so like I said, was proud to partner with so many leaders on focusing on how we actually make this thing start to happen. And in particular, like so many things that are going on right now, both in the pandemic and also in the racial justice, not only the moment, but the movement that we're seeing going on right now, and making sure that communities of color and the inequities that we see with regard to broadband are part of that focus. Sure. So if I may, I'd like to switch gears a bit and just reference the fact that there has been an ongoing debate about the extent to which the FCC has jurisdiction over cyber security, or at least some aspects of cyber security. Different views on this. Can you sort of frame the contours of the debate for us? And let us then on what side of the debate or where along its continuum you fall. Sure. Sure. Thank you. Great question. And so, as you reference in recent years, various commissioners have expressed different views about how involved the FCC should be in cyber security issues. During the Obama administration, I'd note, the FCC sought an active role in cyber security. And the current chairman, of course, I would note, has been much less involved. And so some of the differences fall on where people interpret our statutory authority. Some of my colleagues, Republican colleagues feel strongly that we should very narrowly construe our instructions from Congress and only in a very limited scalpel like way, regulate cyber security when Congress expressly tells us to. I think that is too narrow of view. The Communication Act in setting up the FCC's authority even long ago in 1934 said that it was creating the FCC. We are imbued in part for the purpose of the national defense, purpose of promoting safety and life and property, you know, close quote if I'm memorizing it from memory. And so I think we have a responsibility for modern networks to raise these kinds of concerns and the FCC should have an active role. Some of the debate is practical moving on from some of the statutory, you know, homeland security has been anointed with leadership, a leadership role here. And so again, some of my colleagues would shift all of that to DHS. And I think the FCC has valuable, essential, relevant expertise and experience that should come to bear here. And so pushing it all to somebody else, I think does us a disservice. And so, you know, I would also kind of briefly tick through what's going in my mind as, you know, a couple of the ways where we do have a role here, we evaluate license applications from foreign ownership. And this includes a national security review from Team Telecom for some of your viewers who may know. Cybersecurity is also part of the process of reviewing submarine cables. And this is a critical part of how we connect data and it's transmitted across the world. And so there are cybersecurity elements there. And then something that I've really focused on, and that is removing untrustworthy equipment from our networks. And, you know, we at the FCC, you know, in large part because I kind of called and beat the drum here, is focusing on removing this untrustworthy equipment where Universal Service Fund, again, this is the fund that we administer at the FCC, making sure it's not used to purchase insecure equipment, Chinese equipment for Huawei, ZTE, you know, I think are really important. And then the kind of the last thing that I would mention is, you know, we have the communications assistance for law enforcement at Calia. I know you have a DOJ background as well, Stephanie. And so Calia, and this is also coming, you know, how we establish policies and procedures to prevent unauthorized surveillance is something that continues to kind of flare up. And I think it's something that we need to continue to have a voice in. And I do think that issue is not going away anytime soon. So let's say for the sake of argument that it's January 21st, 2021. And I don't have a crystal ball in front of me, but for the sake of argument, let's say there are now three, instead of two Democratic FCC commissioners, let's say there are three like-minded Democratic FCC commissioners. And let's say you're incredibly influential among the three. So if you have that kind of clout and influence, what kind of cybersecurity focus initiatives or actions would you wish the commission to take? Well, I like the question. And I will say, I will say as well, I'm not in the prognostication business. And so I'll focus on what some of my priorities that I'm going to continue to be talking about regardless of future administration. And so the first thing I would focus on is, like I said, I was the commissioner who has met the most with the small carriers who have insecure Huawei and ZTE equipment in their infrastructure. I came out with find it, fix it, fund it. That was we need to find insecure equipment. We need to fix it and remediate it and then make sure we fund it. And so the last part of that is something that we still need to work with Congress on. And so that would be something that I would focus on. We have not appropriated funding for the repair and replacement part of that. As a result, we do have some recipients who are lacking the funds to maintain their networks, even though we have already prohibited them from using Huawei ZTE. And so I would focus in the future in January on making sure we open up those lines of communication and have that better funding as well. I think that has to be priority number one on network security and cyber security kind of front. The second thing I would really focus on is kind of a vision board piece that I have been focusing on for a while now. And that is promoting network security as part of our communication network and development. And not proposing band-aid remedies, but really kind of being forward looking. And where I really see this coming about is in our 5G future. And in particular, the open radio access network or ORAN solutions. And making sure that we have going forward a real American role in the distribution and single system of interoperable hardware that emphasizes software, divine functions, open interfaces, cloud hierarchy, all of these are going to start to come together. And so from a networking standpoint, increasing efficiency, cost effectiveness, ORAN is also going to provide the capability for scale and designed improvements, updates at lower costs, faster timetable. And so we've got to continue to focus on this aspect of network security. And something that I've called for even most recently, just even as last month, is that especially when we're talking about in a rip and replace world where we are, the American taxpayers are going to be rebuilding these networks for a lot of carriers, I think it is, I think it is time for us to make sure that some of those carriers hear from an ORAN option. And so I think that's going to help promote it as a business case, as a product, and making sure that ORAN really goes from what some in this administration have called pie in the sky, and really making sure that that ORAN becomes part of our real world. I think it's going to be a part of American security going forward. The last thing that I would kind of be on my vision board is focusing on end user device security. As I mentioned, in particular with the digital divide, lifeline lifeline phones and providers often have low cost devices. And so two common manufacturers of these low cost devices are Huawei and ZTE. And so when you're talking about those devices, it's been revealed that some times they are embedded with malware can be encrypted multiple times. And so some of the phone's virtual settings and applications make it virtually impossible to uninstall. And so that's an issue that I have focused on. I think we need to make sure that the prices that people have around using to pay for a phone that's affordable is not compromised on some of these security and privacy issues. I think that's unacceptable. And because the commission has control over the lifeline program, I think we need to use that authority. We're obligated to make sure that the basic functionality here does keep our Americans secure. The last, last thing that I would mention that I've called for a number of times is internal changes at the FCC. We need to create a national security task force. The fact of the matter is that these network and national security issues and the cross section that they have with our network issues have continued to come up. And we need to have a better, more collaborative way that we approach these issues rather than it being kind of whack-a-mole even at the FCC. Internal coordination has got to increase. We cannot have inconsistent treatment on these vital issues of national security. And again, these issues just aren't going to diminish quite the opposite. I think the complexity of these issues are going to only mean that we're going to have to step up more and deal with these with a cross collaborative mindset. So sort of to close out, it seems that you are very much focused not just on national security and privacy, but how the practices that we implement those values, those outcomes do not have disparate impacts on various communities. In other words, that this needs to be a holistic approach. And frankly, you are an advocate, it sounds like for the FCC playing an important role at addressing these issues in a holistic way and specifically in a way that does not have a disparate impact on communities of color. I could not agree more. And the fact of the matter is that so many of these issues, when you're talking about network issues and cybersecurity issues and privacy issues, so many of these are intertwined and co-mingled in ways that I think the FCC has a real role and a real voice to play. When I look at some of the surveillance issues, when I look at some of the AI issues, some of the algorithmic bias issues, a lot of these are having a disproportionate impact on communities of color on the marginalized, on the most vulnerable. And so I'm going to continue to use my voice and use my platform to make sure that these are issues that have a spotlight shine. And we're working through them with policy, and we're making sure that there is equity and digital equity that is brought to bear on a lot of these issues. So could not agree more on what you're on that proposition. Well, Commissioner Starks, again, I promised your staff that I would keep time on this and not make you late for your next Zoom or call, if you will. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time. You know, hopefully we'll be in a very different situation as a nation and as a world next year, and we can continue the conversation in person in Vegas. I'll look forward to it. Always good to talk to you, Stephanie. Thank you so much. Be by your well. Thank you. Bye-bye.