 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. A verbal altercation has happened. He stepped towards me. I've stepped towards him. And as he stepped towards me, I've hit him. He's gone over and then his mate jumped over and hit me. So I've hit his mate. He's jumped. Then I've walked off. I've seen his mate jump up. I've walked off. I've gone in the taxi. I've gone back to the uni halls. We've gone back into the uni halls, but we're in there and then loads of the police have just stormed it probably about an hour later or something. I've gone to the police station with my friend. They've locked a few of us up. Anyway, they've told me that he's on a life support machine. And I rang my mum on the phone and she's crying. I'm like, what are you crying for? She's like, have you not heard? I was like, not heard. What? She's like his dad. I'm like, who's died? They didn't even compute that she was on about him. She's on about and then she said, oh, he's died. The boy, your hits died. So I'm just like, I remember just having a dead like out of body experience. So I was just sitting there just thinking like, I just remember sitting on my bed thinking like selfishly. The first thing that I thought I thought is I'm never getting out of prison. So now they've come back to the prison because he was section 18 because he was still alive. So they've come back to the prison the police have told me back to the station, they've re-arrested, they've told me back to the station, re-interviewed me. They said, now we're changing the charge from section 18 to murder. To know that you've took someone's child away from them is a hard reality to live with, do you know what I mean? And I can't, I try even now if I think about it, I'll get, I'll tear me up, do you know what I mean? It's a very hard reality to live with. Boomer on. Today's guest, we've got Boxer Ty, make sure. How are you both? How are you big man? Yeah, not bad, not bad, good for you man. Good to see you. Yeah, nice one. Fascinating story, brother. Boxer, your whole future ahead of you, you'd get sent to prison for murder or manslaughter and it's kind of obviously changed your whole patterns in life, it's changed your whole life, you're bad Clifton Mitchell as well who's very successful in the boxing industry. But first and foremost, how are you? Yeah, I'm good, I mean, I'm blessed, you know what I mean, in a lot of, in life in general, so yeah, I'm good, I'm good for the most part, everything's good, still on this journey that you call life, man, trying to find a way to make it through, do you know what I mean? So that's basically where I'm at at the minute, yeah. That's all you can do now. Yeah, exactly. There's been a lot of stories about you in the papers, you sparred with the biggest boxers on this planet, but today's about you, it's about your story and for you, you've never spoke about your own story, so that's the time to tell your story and get people to understand you, what you're about, your regrets, your fuck-ups, your mistakes, just let everybody on this planet and what you're trying to achieve now, but I always go back to the start of my guests, where you grew up, how it all began. Yeah, so I grew up in Derby, where I still live today, in a little village called Little Eton, which is my favourite place in the world, like it's a little village and I absolutely love it there, my grandparents live there, I'm super close to, but yeah, so I grew up there with me, my older brother, my older sister and my mum and dad had separated when I was younger, I don't remember them being together and then I've got another little brother from my dad, who's seven years younger than me, so they must have got back for a brief period, but I don't really remember it because I was young, I think I was six or seven when my little brother was born, but yeah, so I went now, I went to Little Eton Primary School and yeah, to be fair, we was definitely poor, but I don't think as a kid you really understand if you're rich or poor or whatever, it wasn't like struggling, like it was absolutely starving, but there was definitely days where we didn't have much to eat, the electric would always go out, we'd have to try and borrow fire off the neighbour to put some electric cars on, my nana and grandad was an absolute godsend, like they were only lived a mile down the road, but if we ever run out of food, they'd go to the shop and bring it for us and stuff, but I think with a single mom who didn't work, she was obviously too busy raising all those kids at home on her own, it must have been really hard for her, on benefits and whatever, and raising three or four kids, it was definitely hard, but it was like I said, I was very blessed to grow up in a little village I did, everybody knew each other, all the kids used to go and play together, we'd walk in each other's houses, all the parents was like our own parents, it was just like a really nice community to grow up in, that was nice, I moved to my dad's, so I lived with my mum till I was 10, and I moved to my dad's, I didn't really like living at my mum's house to be honest, I felt like I was kind of the outcast of the family, I was quite naughty as a kid, as you get older you realise you may be full circumstances or whatever, but as a kid I was quite mischievous and naughty, probably crying out for attention in the wrong ways and stuff, but yeah, I didn't really like living at my mum's, so I moved to my dad's when I was going to secondary school, so I would have been out of 10 or 11 I guess, and he lived in a different part of Derby called Chaddiston at the time, and I didn't know anybody there, so I moved him with my dad and my step mum, Caroline, and yeah, it was a different, it was a change, I was used to living in the house with loads of siblings, so basically being on my own because they were adults and they was out all day working and then at night they'd be busy and stuff, so I was basically raised myself, it was there but it wasn't there, I kind of raised myself from most of my life, growing up from I'd say 11 to like 17, 18, so yeah, I went to secondary school and to Ecclesbourne, which was a quite posh school, you had to be in a catchment area and stuff, but again, I was playing up at school, not really doing really naughty things, just being mischievous, answering back to teachers and just being a mischievous person, and because it was quite a strict school, I must have been suspended 10, 15 times or something, and in the end towards the end of the day they just said, yeah, just don't come back, we're not expelling you but don't come back, so yeah, that was kind of my journey, and I think from the last year then I just started, I'd stayed in the gym I guess. Was that more disciplinary or did you think, or did you get away with more? Because he's a man, some fathers think, well he's a boy, let's just let it all away, but some are strict. Yes and no, it's a weird thing because when I lived with my mums, I was absolutely petrified of my dad because I was naughty, so anytime he'd come he'd be coming to give me a good hiding, so I was weirdly always wanted to be with him, so even though I was petrified of him, I always wanted to be with my dad or live with my dads, so when I lived with him, I'd still get in good hiding as a kid if I was not at school or home or whatever, so he was definitely more strict, but he didn't change my behaviour, I didn't know how to act any different, so even though I was scared of him, and I thought well if I bathed myself I'm not getting in trouble, I'd literally, I remember thinking to myself, why can't I stay out of trouble, but I didn't know any different, I was just mischievous little shit really to be honest, but yeah, now my dad was definitely still strict with me, but he was very loyal to me, do you know what I mean, so he was a weird, he was a weird, because me and my dad are very close now, but growing up even when I lived with him we wasn't close, like I'd live in the house of him, but I wouldn't really have anything to speak to him about, he was just my dad, so yeah it was a weird dynamic, my stepmom was an absolute godsend man, she was 10 years younger than my dad, so at the time she would have been like, I think my dad was 34 and she would have been 24, but to me they were both adults, I didn't really see it, but now as a grown up, she was a young woman trying to help out with all my dad's kids when they'd come, obviously I was the only one that lived there, but she didn't have no kids of her own at this time, but she did everything for me that she could, she looked after me, she tried to do anything she could do, and I love her to pieces, like I'm very close to her now, and she means the world to me, but she didn't, when she had other kids I could see there was a different, you know that maternal bond, so she did everything she could for me, but she never had that maternal bond, and I didn't really get that from my mum, because me and my mum drifted apart a lot when I moved to my dad's, I kind of felt like she didn't really care about me that much, so I feel like I was always looking for that maternal bond, and I think the closest I ever got to it was from my nana, but yeah I kind of missed that maternal bond growing up, and I think that had a big impact, it definitely does have a big impact on who I am today, and especially in relationships and stuff. The behaviour, the abandonment issues, that's why I'm the same, like getting close to someone, I love it at the start, getting close and growing connection, but once they ask that feeling for them, I think they can leave me here, they can hurt me, fuck you, you're done, I'll close a fight or I'll push them away or I'll do something stupid, like I don't want to make excuses but part of me of the relationship will only last maybe three months with myself, and it's the same patterns, and I know this, I'm trying to work on it now because I want to, I have a partner I want to, but able to trust, but my trust issues are fucking non-existent if I'm honest, like I can build trust with people to a certain degree, but there's not enough there where they can fuck me over, because then I'm safe, I try and protect my heart as much as I can, and it's sad that, but again I understand where the abandonment comes through in the relationships, because as kids all we want is love and nourishment and protection, and our parents done that to the best that Bill Minds did, to the best of their ability, because of what they know, my mum loves me a bit now, she's so proud, but I can understand where the mischievous behaviour comes because it's like a cry out for attention. Yeah 100%, and they didn't even realise it at the time because you're a kid so you don't know any different, it's only to be fair, it's only as I got older as an adult, and I started, I've been to therapy a few times and I kind of worked out why I was the way I was, like I've changed, I'm completely, if you knew me as a person and you met me today, you'd think you're a completely different person, I was dead hyper, I was dead like kind of almost arrogant, but I was the most insecure kid you'd ever meet, but it's almost an arrogance because I was trying to portray something I wasn't, but I think everything you go through is a kid, definitely shapes you to who the person you are, and I think that's why with my son, I'm uber, like conscious of how I act around him and what I am around him, just because I know these years of your life as a kid makes a big difference on who you are as an adult, do you know what I mean? Yeah, do you have a diagnosis with ADHD or anything like that? No, so I've never been to, got professionally diagnosed, but my fairy priest says she's 90% sure that I've got a borderline personality disorder, which comes a lot from abandonment and stuff like that, so basically you just can't get close to people and you'll feel one way, a certain way one day and then you can be a certain feel something the next, where it only really happens in relationships and certain things in life, I've got no consistency, say even with a diet for example, I'll be absolutely penciled in for like three or four days and I thought I haven't come over it, do you know what I mean? I've got no consistency with certain things, but I'm working on it. That's all we can do, we're a working process, brother. What is, did you start getting into boxing? So I started boxing, my dad retired when I was seven, I think, and he opened... Why, sorry, why did your dad retire? Because I only had like 18 fights, 20 fights, is that fair? Brain scan, he failed a brain scan. You're joking? Yeah, so we'd had so many fights and I think something on his brain scan and then he, yeah, he couldn't continue anymore, which was, I guess it was hard for him at the time, because he had a lot more he wanted to do in the sport, but everything happens for a reason, do you know what I mean? God doesn't make mistakes and maybe if he didn't fail his brain scan, maybe he could have got hurt in the ring or anything, so you don't know, you just have to say, accept it for what it is. But yeah, so he retired young and he set up a boxing gym and that's my dad's passion, he absolutely loves that gym. I think what he's real passion is helping kids, building them right up until the men, but he has a real thing about trying to bring the youth out and do good and trying, I think he fulfills him trying to stop a kid going from one direction and giving them a better path in life, so I'm very proud of him for that. But yeah, I was seven and he had a gym in town called One Nation, which is still called today, was on St. James Street, that was his first ever gym, so I was kind of in the gym from young, I used to get two crates and stand on them and go on a speedball as a kid, I used to be fascinated with the speedball by the time I was like flying. So yeah, that was when I started, but I really started properly when I would say, when I moved to my dad's house when I was 11, when I started, well it would have been 10, I would have probably started taking the public because I had my first amateur boxing match at 11, which is the youngest you can do it. So yeah, so from then, but like I said, I'm my own worst enemy, I would be, I've got all the natural talent in the world, but I would always, I wouldn't work as hard as other people or I remember I was doing dead well in the championships, I was penciled in, I was doing dead well in the championships and I was just beating all these people with four nations champion people that I wasn't even meant to be beating and then I ended up going to a party, staying up all night at one school party, I told my dad I was going to my mates, I lied to him or whatever, I ended all girls and I'm about 13 at the time, 14, trying to kiss up with girls and neck on and that as a kid, you know, and it's all new to you and that staying up and then ended up going and then my next fight not having no sleep and losing just because I just messed it all up for myself. So, and it was kind of like that for the most of my amateur career and then the start of my professional career, I just didn't take boxing serious. And as you know, from training, if you don't respect the sport, you'll get a find out and it's a hard sport, you can't cheat, there's no cheating in boxing. So, yeah, I think I was just a bit mentally immature anyway, growing up, even when I was first turn pro back in 2009 or 2009, I was still a bit immature, I'd be out, pissed up like the week before fights and stuff because I liked boxing, but I didn't really love it. Yeah. And I just did it because I didn't know anything different. But yeah, that's when I started boxing when I was seven. So it's a long time now because I'm feeling like because people who go to combat sport disciplines them. Yeah. But you kind of had the opposite effect. Yeah. That's because you could handle yourself. I just think I was a bit too, I just think I didn't care enough. I think I didn't care enough about it at the time. I was more interested in having fun. And I also think I'll probably just thought yeah, because I was flying in the gym and I would just bar people and I'd be fine. And now every fight I've ever had that I've lost, I didn't first round or two, they couldn't touch me. I'd be smashing them. Then the people that I'd always get me is the one that was not dead fitting on stop because then they'd get me towards the end of the fight, middle rounds and then they'd take over just to outpoint me. So yeah, I did give me discipline in certain aspects, but at the same time is I think I was fighting against it. And I also kind of thought I don't want to do it, but I kind of felt not pressured because I've never been pressured by anyone to box, but I feel like everyone knew me as a boxer. So it just became who I was. Do you know what I mean? And I maybe I just wasn't even interested in it at the time. How many pro fights did you have? Five. What was your first fight like? The first fight I was, so I was 18 years old, didn't have no facial, I was like a proper baby face boy. And I've come in at 11 stone two, and I've boxed this guy's come in black guy, dreadlocks, ripped the sheds, 27 years old, come in the stone Evia, butt naked on the scales, big dick swinging. I'm just thinking my dad set me up here, but I'm going to get upset about this big African man. His name was Sabi Monteith. And I just thought he just looks like some strong African warrior. I thought my dad set me up here first, but I'm a little boy, what am I fighting this man for? Anyway, I said, fuck it, we're going to have to fight anyway. I don't care if you're staying there, but you have some of the tickets now. Do you know what I mean? So I've gone in there and I just hit him and moved for six rounds and just tried not to get involved with him. I won that fight. Then I had another fight and I think it was Burton and knocked him out in the first or the second round. And that was the first time I'd knocked him out because in amateurs, I'd stop people, but I'd never knocked no one out. And these are smaller gloves. I was a bit bigger now. I'm about 19, 18 at the time, 19. He ends? No, I tensed. They're tensed in amateurs, but the bear padded in this. These are proper lace gloves. So, and then did what I tend to do in my life or what I used to tend to do in my life. So if he struck me, I didn't take the next fight serious, not training properly, this, that, and the other box is a guy from Ingle's gym. I think his name's Lee Duncan. And I was beating him for the first two rounds, but he was very awkward and laying back and stuff. And I'm knackered now. Then he's put the pressure up and I lost on points. I don't think I lost the fight, to be honest. If I'd normally lose, I lose, I'll say I lost the fight. But I don't think I lost that fight. But like I said, it was my own fault. I should have trained either. Then I knocked someone out in my fourth fight. I've trained hard for that fight. And then the fifth fight, I trained okay for it, but I just shouldn't have been in there with the opponent I was. I think he was named Simon O'Donnell. He'd had like 10 fights, one nine box at Madison Square Garden. I think he'd not like five out consecutively. So I don't think I should have been in there with him, but I was pinging him all over to be fair, dropped him in the first. And then same thing, gasped out, caught me with a shot. And then I took a knee, come with a body shot, took a knee, stood up. And then my dad said, I said, no, I'm fine. My dad threw the towel and I said, what are you doing? But I think it was more, he seemed to get hurt for the first time in his life. And he kind of wanted, protection mode came in because I'm his son. And he really annoyed me at the time, but maybe I would have got ironed out straight after, you know what I mean? He was a lot bigger and stronger than me. He was a man fighting a boy, basically. But that was the best thing that happened to me, to be honest, because I think from that, I realized you can't play a boxing now because look, these, these not even at world level. And look how hard I found it. And I guess I was a boy as well at the time. I think I had to mature physically and emotionally. But yeah, that was my last pro fight. I've done a lot of unlicensed since I've come out, but yeah. So five pro fights, 2011, your whole life changed forever. You were charged with manslaughter, punched a man, man was dead, five days later, I'm sure. And what should lead up to that event? That last fight we were just talking about were lost. That was on Friday or the Saturday and it was the Tuesday that it happened. So it was literally a few days after the fight. And basically I was dead down within myself because I'd lost a fight. I was embarrassed, upset, annoyed. And I was staying at my grandparents at the time. Because at these times, I'd come forth from my mom, from my dad's at my grandparents, I'm really close to my non-granddad. So I was just staying there. I didn't, I'd been in the house for a few days and I'd literally gone to get a Domino's pizza. And I'd seen my friend while I was up there is like a, it's called Alistair, which is not far from where I live. And he basically was saying, oh, look, come out with me tonight. We'll go to Leeds. He was a student there at the time. And I was like, nah, I'm not really interested this and that. I'm not, I'm not, I'm down alive. He's like, no, come on. I'll make you feel better, etc, etc. I said, I'll give me a ring in a bit and I'll tell you if I want to come. So anyway, I've gone home and then he's ringing me saying, oh, these birds are not coming off. He's just waiting to ask me to come by to tell me these certain birds are coming. And this and that. So I was like, oh, I'm thinking about it. It's ended up going, which obviously nice. I wish I never bought. I ended up going. And we had a good, the night was fine. We had a good night. Then we'd left the club. It's called Tiger, Tiger and Leeds. We'd left the club. And he's so basically, before we went out, we'd gone to his student house where he lived in. There's a few of them now. I knew some of them, because some of them were from Derby. Then there's another guy that I'd never met before, but we'd met him before the night out and we've gone out together. So anyway, when we'd left Tiger, Tiger, me, my friend and these two birds had left his misses and a mate, his misses at the time. So we're walking across the street. And one of his mates that he lives with was arguing with this other guy, this Asian guy. So these two are arguing the way of, I have just none of my business. I've kind of walked past. I've gone into the subway. There's a lot of coming behind me. I said, we've sat down. I'm eating my food. And these two are still going at each other. So I'm just like, yeah, you lot just allow it, man. Forget it. The Asian guy has rang his mates. So now I'm eating my food. I've seen these two come and look at the window and run in. One of them is a big, biggest guy. So now I've stood up thinking, oh, it's going to go off like, because obviously we're with him. He's rang his mates. It's going off. So I've stood up, then we've all ended up going outside. Now these two have had a fight that was originally arguing Asian guy, my friend's mate. The Asian guy is absolutely set about the, my friend's friend, like never batted him smashed him all up and down the street. So then that's, that's finished. And then me and him, I can't because it's so many years ago, I can't remember exactly what happened, but me and him have ended up in a kind of a verbal confrontation. So we're arguing, we're arguing and saying back and forth. So we've ended up face to face. Then I've pushed him in his face and he's fell over and he's jumped up. I'll knock you out this time. I said, oh, whatever, dickhead, you're gone. So then we've tried to get in a taxi with my mate and obviously his mate, but he's covered in blood. So we've gone to get in a taxi. The taxi driver said, he's not getting any, he's covered in blood. He's going to ruin my taxi. But as we're trying to get in the taxi, the Asian guy, he's called Jagdeep, has walked past me and my friends said, I'm going to wash my hand and come back and knock you out. I was like, oh yeah, whatever, mate. So anyway, we've tried to get in the taxi, the taxi wouldn't let us in. So as I've come back around the corner to get into another taxi, we've come out to head again. Another verbal altercation has happened. So he's in front of me here and his mate's behind me. And I'm trying to remember exactly because it's so many years ago, a verbal altercation has happened. He stepped towards me. I've stepped towards him. And as he stepped towards me, I've hit him. He's gone over and then his mate jumped over and hit me. So I've hit his mate. He's dropped. Then I've walked off. I've seen his mate jump up. I've walked off. I've gone in the taxi. We've gone back to the uni halls. We've gone back into the uni halls, but we're in there and loads of the police have just stormed it, probably about an hour later or something. I've gone to the police station with my friend. They've locked a few of us up. Anyway, they've told me that he's on a life support machine. But I didn't think nothing. I just thought a life support machine. I didn't know he was hurt like that. Do you know what I mean? So I'm now a little bit worried. I'm like, why is he on a life support machine kind of thing? I thought he was lying, to be honest. I thought he was lying. I thought that they're just trying to put scare tactics into me. I'm like, at the end of the day, we've argued he's come at me. So then I've gone back at him. Obviously, he's gone. I think he went to bite me. That was it. As he's come to me, he's had his mouth open like he was going to bite me. That's when I've hit him. So it's kind of 50-50. No one's, we've both gone for each other. So I'm not saying that he's attacked me and I'm defended myself. But at the same time as it was like he's come at me and I've come at him kind of thing. So I'm thinking, are they trying to put scare tactics into me to try and make us all talk? Because they put us all in different things. But normally they get out after 24 hours because I've been arrested before. So normally you get out after 24 hours. But like a day's gone by, so nothing's come. Then they're taking off fingernails and this and that and the other. So I'm thinking, this is actually a bit serious now. So now I'm thinking, fuck's sake. Do you know what's happened to this kid? So they've locked us all up. And anyway, they've told us that he's on, he's declining. He's on life support and he's declining. So I've been in the cell for like three days now. So they've locked me up. They've remanded me in prison. When I've got to prison, the first day I've got there, I'm thinking, I spoke to one of my parents and they said, oh, he's getting better. He's coming back out or whatever. So I was like, okay, cool. Another two days went past. I was just in there waiting on my court there. I can't remember whatever court that I had. And I rang my mom on the phone and she's crying. I'm like, what are you crying for? She's like, have you not heard? I was like, not heard what? She's like, he's died. I'm like, who's died? They didn't even compute that she was on the back and she's on the back and they said, oh, he's died. The boy, he hits died. So I'm just like, I remember just having a dead, like out of body experience. So I was just sitting there just thinking like, I just remember sitting on my bed thinking like selfishly, the first thing that I thought I thought is, I'm never getting out of prison. That's what I remember thinking. And I remember thinking that's a very selfish thing to think, do you know what I mean? But I think the only way to cope with it was to, it was easier for me to cope with it to kind of blame him. Because I'm like, well, you've started to fight, you've called your friends up, you've come at me, do you know what I mean? And I think that's how I cope with it at the time. So I was kind of just thinking about myself for a while. I think most, I think for, I think it took a very long time for me to even really process it. So now they've come back to the prison because it was section 18, because he was still alive. So they've come back to the prison, the police have told me back to the station, they've re-arrested me, told me about to the station, re-interviewed me. They said, now we're changing the charge from section 18 to murder. So I'm like, how is it murder? It was one punch, like, I've never intended to kill him clearly. They said, you're a boxer, you know what your fist can do, that means their weapons, et cetera, et cetera. So before the trial, he kept getting information from the doctors and this and that. And he said, there's a big problem here. I said, what, because I've changed my solicitors, I had one for him and I changed it to another for him. He said, there's a big problem here. I said, what? He said, there's a lot of blunders at the hospital. I says, what do you mean? He said, basically, they've put him on that ventilator machine that didn't work. So it's 87 minutes or something. Yeah, and it didn't work. So they put him on and left and he didn't work. So basically they've incubated him so he can, so they can put him on a breathing machine. He didn't need it anyway, but they've done it anyway because it's meant to be standard practice if somebody's, if they put him into an induced coma. So they said that the breathing machine they put him on didn't work and it's made his body go into cardiac arrest. So then when they've tried to, I've done something to try and make helping breathe and it punctured his lung as well. So he's just one thing, one blunder after another. So then what our argument was, well, if I've not killed him, how are you going to charge me with murder? So they're saying, well, basically the hospital's your code, you've both killed him. So you both have butted each other. If you didn't put him in there, then he wouldn't have died, etc. So we've gone to try or they said, you can plead guilty to section 18 or manslaughter. I says, no. I said, I plead guilty to section 20 because it was no intent and I've not killed him. They said, no, so you can go to, so you get there, the two deals, you can have a plea guilty manslaughter today or to section 18. I says, no, I'll go to trial and murder. And I half knew I was going to get found guilty with manslaughter, but I just didn't want to plead guilty on their terms kind of thing. I think I was a bit young and I thought, well, if he never came at me, he was kind of self-defensing. I had, I think I convinced myself of that, but looking back at of it now as an adult, I deserved to go to prison. But at the time I was thinking, well, he come at me if he didn't step to me first, because he did take the first step towards me. I was thinking, if he didn't step towards me, then it wouldn't have happened. That's my mindset at the time. But like I said, as an adult now, I see it differently. So I ended up going to trial. I ended up getting found not guilty of murder, but guilty of manslaughter. They gave me seven years with a three years extra license. So the classmate is at EPP. And yeah, and that was it. I guess I just, I'd already been on remand for, I think, nine or 10 months at the time. And that was it. He just said, yeah, you got two years, three years left or something, just under three years left by that time. I've done nine months. And yeah, that was basically the short and fall of what happened that night. What was it like being in court with that kid's family? How tough is that? Especially if you're trying to blame him on you, but you're blaming yourself and self-defense has self-defense. If somebody steps forward, you have got a right to defend. But like you say, your hands are weapons as well. But how hard does that to be in courtrooms and hearing families crying all against you and blaming you? It was very emotionally hard. It was the whole thing was draining. Being in prison, you have to get up dead early to put you in like this box to get in the prison bus to get you to court. Then you sat in things. So that was all emotionally draining. And for the first bit, he wasn't there because I think his family was from London, I think, I believe, and this was in Leeds as a student. It was hard. But when I see them there, I didn't have the heart to look at them. I just couldn't look at them to be honest with you. I didn't. And it's a hard reality. I think at the time, at the time, I was just like kind of normal. I just couldn't look at them. But I was just kind of normal. I just thought, well, I can kind of convince myself I was more innocent than I was. It could have been looked to be honest with you. It could have been looked at self-defense. He stepped in me legally, whether your box or not, if someone, if you think someone's a threat to you, you're allowed to legally hit them. If someone hits you or goes to hit you, you're allowed to hit them, whether your box or not. So depending on how you look at it, it could have been looked like that. But in hindsight, I deserved to go to prison because I could have ran off. I could have done anything. Do you know what I mean? The truth is, it was both of it wrong. We should have both walked off. He shouldn't have come at me and I shouldn't have come at him. That's the truth. But I think for years, I think for years, it was just easier to blame everybody else but me. I was like, well, if he's not done this, this, that, and the other. And it wasn't that I was, I was definitely remorseful, but it wasn't that I wasn't remorseful. I was just, it was the easiest way for me to cope. And I've got a big heart, do you know what I mean? And to know that you've took someone's child away from them is a hard reality to live with, do you know what I mean? And I can't, even now, if I think about it, I'll tear me up, do you know what I mean? It's a very hard reality to live with. And I think I've not, I've only really sat and had this conversation with myself in the past couple of years. I think for years, it was just too hard to think about, do you know what I mean? And I think to, yeah, his whole life ahead of him. And if I was not such an, because the only reason I didn't walk away is because I was too insecure. There's people there, he's off, put it on me, and I couldn't bring myself to walk away. And I just think if he wasn't such an insecure little fool, you could have said, you know what, even if he hit me, I could have still walked away. And I think it's a very, it's a horrible reality to live with. And my heart sinks for his family because I've got a son now. And if anything happened to him, I don't think I could live through it. Honestly, that's the God's honest truth. I don't think I'd ever end up doing something to myself. I'd end up in a mental institute. I don't think I'm, do you know what I mean? And I feel like for me to put someone's family through the day, he's got sisters, he's got family, and all this over nothing. It was nothing, do you know what I mean? Two people having an argument about a cigarette I had, it was a light or something stupid. So I think for the most of my prison time, and even when I come out, it was just easy not to take full responsibility. But I think to grow as a person, you have to have some hard honest conversations with yourself and be true to yourself. And it was a hard, hard conversation that I had to have with you. That's the difficult thing. I know you type personally, I've spent a lot of time with you now. A clash as a friend, I know the struggles you've been through. And I can understand that family as well. I've lost family members to murder and suicide and overdose to all kinds of things. And my family's inflicted a lot of pain on to others as well. But I can understand that family's hate and rage to maybe towards yourself. Maybe they're not now, maybe they see you and hopefully they see this and go, do you know what, he has changed. People do change. Like you never set out to hurt anybody. Yes, you got yourself in a fight. It happens. I've been in many, like just anybody probably watching or listening to this have been in many. Like it happens. People do get in scuffles. It's just one of those things that you've had to deal with. You'll probably be dealing with the rest of your life. That's the sad reality of it, man, because obviously you have got a big heart and you can see the pain in your eyes. But as time goes on, only thing you can do is try and be the best version that you can be and learn from the mistakes that you've made. But that is probably the worst mistake you can make in life. But being a father and I see you where you are with your son and try to rectify the pain and try to become a better person. That's all you can ever ask of anybody is to put your hands up. And that's the, if you're in this in a cage for seven years of your life, you're going to blame everybody else. What if I never went out that night? You're probably blaming the guys who took you out that night. You're probably blaming the birds that's there. But in the reality, you've just got to blame yourself because you went out, you made the choices. And that is the hard thing. But then when you start admitting that you have fucked up, then that's when you can get changed. Brother, how hard was it though your sentence like to get a seven, would you have got a lesser sentence if you took the deal? Yeah, I'd probably got about five years. Seven has quite a lot. To be honest with you, he never ever entered, even after I got, even after I got a sentence, he never, I never once thought to myself, oh, I wish I'd have took the deal. Honestly, he didn't, he didn't even enter. I just thought you've got what you've got. I was annoyed at the time. I was feeling because someone had just got the same thing, the same thing, one punch, one slot apart from there's no, there was no hospital negligence that he, the guy he was fighting had him beating anybody up just before there was nothing he was just, I think just walked up and it's only got three years. So I'm thinking, why have I got seven? But the judge made, give me whatever you give me. Made that an example? Yeah. And I just got on with it, mate. I think I just kind of just thought, right, you've got no choice but to get on with it. And you just do what you've got to do, mate. What I didn't like about prison is sometimes you have to be someone you don't want to be, to survive in certain places because there's a lot of leech, cockroaches, horrible people in there. There's people in there for disgusting things, people in there that have put babies in sleeping bags, in pillowcases and smashed them against the wall and killed them and raped people and murdered and chopped people to bits, horrible people. And then you get these burglars and this and that and that trying, there's always people trying to cut and you have to be one step ahead. And then there's also people that want to put it on you and test you and stuff. So I'm, as I got older, the older I get, the less conflict I'm involved with, I'm not interested in, like, it saved someone come up to me now, it's happened to me a few times and put it on me. I'm not interested. I'm not bothered. Okay, I'm a pussy. You can beat me up. I'm not bothered. And I think after that happened, what I went to prison for, it just changed me straight away. I just wasn't even interested in fighting, but I even had to engage in a couple of fights in there just to survive. Do you know what I mean? So I didn't, I didn't, I did have some good times in prison. Don't get me wrong, I met some good people, had some laughs and I met some friends, bonds that were people that I'm still close with today. But it's not a nice place. It's just a waste of life. Prison's not even hard. For me, I spent most of my life by myself anyway, before prison, like I, for the five years, six, seven years before prison, I lived in my dad's house. They was old, old people, older people to me to be at work or wherever. I just by myself. So I didn't find prison hard to be honest. I had a mobile phone most of the time I was in there. I was just sleeping all day and texting birds all night. So it wasn't hard. It's just a waste of life. And it, do you know what hurt me a lot seeing the pain? I'd not only put his family through, but put my own family through. I think my family loved me a lot. Do you know what I mean? Especially the ones close to me, my grandparents and my dad and stuff. And I just felt like I'd let everybody down. And I just felt like I'm just how everyone thought I was going to be turned out. Like, yeah, he was not in school. He's not, this was always going to happen. And I was just, I was just embarrassed and ashamed of myself. Not, not just only hurt for his family and my family. I just felt disgusted in myself. I just thought you are, you're nothing, you're worthless kind of thing. Yeah, that's the sad thing because you and you says it there. I was just about to say that, like, because you were mischievous, always getting in trouble. Prisons was that the card you were already going to deal. And it's not as if you went and get a shooter, put a bali on him and blasted someone. Like, and that's the only thing especially with your, your gran and your grandpa, who you can see the connections there. Like, how hard is that for them to come and see their baby in prison? Horrible. And me and my nan are so close. I'm just as close to my nan and I'm going to, but my nan is the only female I've got in this world that is pure to me. Like, she, I just know that she does love me regardless of anything. My nan just would think the world of me. Do you know what I mean? She'd never abandon me. She'd never, she's the only person, she's the only female I can fully put my trust in. And then to have her come up there and getting searched and do you know what I mean? Like, and she'll do it because she loved me and she'd write me letters and they do, and they make a fuss. But it's just, I just felt like a failure. I just thought the people I love it the most in this world look what I'm having to put them through because I was just an insecure kid that didn't know how to walk away from a fight or walk away from a situation or all this because of that. And I just wish I knew myself earlier. Do you know what I mean? Knew, knew, knew, knew more about myself to realise the reason I was acting the way I was acting. But hindsight's a wonderful thing. Like, we can't change the past. We can't rewrite it. But what we can do is rewrite, we can write the future and plan out how we're going to live the rest of our days. And no matter what you've done, like I've spoke to some mad bastards on these podcasts and people do change, people do care, people make better choices, better decisions and the thing is people watch us and take inspiration from your story. And you're probably sitting on a cell fucking 10 years ago thinking that would never happen. But that's all you can do is just live your life the way you, the best way you can. Like, assume you were getting out of prison, assume you got your release date, like, because prison makes you have breaks as well, like the strongest men become the weakest, end up on your fucking brown or whatever, and then just become weak members. Like, weak people become strong because all they can do is try and fight their way out of it. But when you're coming out, what's the game plan in your mind? Is it either, you know, what I've met a lot of bad men in here, I'm going to go down the route of just being a hundred percent lost in life? Or did you, did you do courses working on your temperament? Yes, yes, you have to do certain courses to get out to pass certain. So you have a probation officer inside and outside of prison, so they put courses that you have to do in there. But to be honest with you, they don't do no good. They're just like, if you was on a bus and someone flicked an elastic band at your face, how are you going to act? In reality, you probably tend to fuck off what you're doing, but you have to say, oh, well, I just ignore it. It's not realistic. But I think, to be honest, that whole incident changed me anyway. I think prison didn't change me. What happened changed me. And I just thought, I just didn't want no conflict no more. Do you know what I mean? I was always a good person. I've always been a good person, but I just had so much insecurities and messed up things as a kid growing up that I just didn't know how to handle certain situations. But I always knew I always had remorse, I always felt bad about things. I knew I was a good person, I had a good heart. But I think that just changed me. So when I come out, I just thought, right, I've got two choices. I am who I think I am, I am who they say I am. And who they think I am, who they say I am is like a guy that fights and is nasty and this and that. But who I know I am is I'm a good person and I just need to show everybody that. So I knew when I come out, I wanted to make a change. I wanted to make a difference. And I have, I've got a charity that I've set up called just, called Get Heard. And I go around to schools, a lot of naughty schools where the kids have been kicked out of schools and I speak with the kids and let them know my story and look, if you keep doing this, this is what can happen. But also if you change your life around, this is what can happen. And I find a lot of fulfillment in that. I just feel like if I can, it's a cliche, but I really mean it, even if I stop one person going down a wrong route, it will fulfill me. And I feel like that's, that's my pride at the minute, trying to, trying to speak to kids and stop people and give them a different outlook. I think a lot of kids, they just don't know any different. They just have certain, I was quite blessed to go up in a nice area, but some kids are grown up around gangs and drugs and really bad things. And I feel they don't know any different. This is all life's I've ever given. So to show them, all right, cool. If you can do this, this and this, you can get here and here. Because I think as a kid, you always have big dreams. You always want nice cars, houses and that. And it's all attainable. You just, which way you go about it. So before I was coming out of prison, that was also my goal to have a charity, but to also get back into my boxing because I just thought boxing is all I know how to do. I'm not good at anything else. I've never, I don't have anything else really to do. So my plan was, yeah, I don't know, in my head, it was all dreams, like it was all plain sailing. I get out, get my license back, change my life around, stop people making the mistakes I did. Got out, I flew to, I had out for a couple of weeks and I was allowed to fly to Cannes south of France and I'd gone on the training camp with Tyson, Fiori, Huey, Fiori and stuff. And was meant to be, Huey was boxing actually in Derby a few weeks after. So I was going to get on that undercard. So I got a foreign license, went to boxing and they said, no, mate, you're not boxing on our show. It was like, apply for a British license and we'll look at it. So I couldn't find that show, I went for a British license, got denied. And then yeah, since then, I've not, they said basically just wait till you're off license before you can apply. So I'm off license now, but I've got a driving charge pending. So they want me to clear that up before I apply again. So that's basically the stage right at the minute. How hard was it to come out of prison for knowing the crime that you admitted? How hard is that then to be going into boxing and punching somebody? Yeah, I would imagine like either just got all this frustration and anger and just letting it all out on somebody or else where you're holding back and going, I don't want to try and hurt anybody. Yeah, I don't differentiate the two at all. So like boxing is boxing and the street fight is a street fight. I don't even, it's like, if I don't know, I crashed into somebody dead bad on a go-kart, but I'd still drive a car. Do you know what I mean? I just don't see the parallels in the two. I think boxing, it's a controlled sport. So when we're sparring anyway, say if I wobble somebody, I step back anyway, you don't finish them off. That's any for a fight. And then in a fight, if you've got gloves on, you've got a mouthguarding, you've got a canvas, you've got doctors, everything, I just don't differentiate the two. So I just box as normally would. But yeah, no, I didn't see any, I just didn't ever merge the two together to be honest. How hard does that work in yourself? You've served your team, you're coming out, you're training hard, you're training when it likes a Tyson Fury, but they're putting in the papers, Tyson Fury's hiring, paid killers. How hard does that work for you? Yeah, I just think it's just the, the press have got a job to do. They're just there to do whatever sells. I wasn't angry at them. I was just, what annoyed me was more with the local Telegraph, Derby Evening Telegraph. They hurt me because I'd done a box for charity before I'd done stuff with kids, I'd boxed and I think the most I got is one little article maybe in the back. Then when I got done for something bad, front page, front page again, put me on a front page plenty of times. And I'm just thinking, at least be consistent, if somebody's doing good, post that as well, but you only post it when it's bad, which is natural, that's the press, that annoyed me. And I just feel like people, most people for the most part are nice to me and they said, look, we're so beautiful to see someone that went through what you went through, but then changed the life around, because I could have kept the other way, I messed up now. But I've refused to be given that stigma like, I've made a mistake and it's the worst mistake of my life and it hurts me more than what they'll ever know, do you know what I mean? But I'm going to change my life around, I'm going to put some good back into this world because I can't change one thing I know, you can sit then, you'll lose your mind trying to change the past, I wish I'd done this or I wish I'd have spoken, I wish I'd have not gone there this night and this and that, but what's done is done. And once you accept it, okay, it's done, what am I going to do now? All right then, I'm going to spread some positivity into the world. I do loads of charity stuff, not just that, I do loads of stuff, I don't talk about it because I don't want no reward, that's between me and God, I do it for that reason. But putting positivity into the world and things like that will make you feel good, you're making other people's lives better, so then all right, cool, I did that, I made a bad mistake when I was younger, I can't change it, but now I'm going to just keep giving as much love and niceness and try and help other people out as I can. And I think people that know me see that and people that follow my Instagram and stuff see that I'm not like that no more. And they just, I think for the most part, people are happy for me, they want me to have my shot at the bull title, at the box, sorry, professional title. And I just feel like it's a good platform to showcase you can change your life, man. I think boxing saved a lot of lives in the past. There's a lot of people with the worst backgrounds, I know people with far worse backgrounds than mine that I've got professional licenses and it's changed their lives and they do good stuff now. And I think to be able to show it on a bigger scale to a bigger audience, maybe I change other people's lives in the process and that's what we're here for, man, we're all going to be dead soon anyway, live shot. So it's this footprint that I want to leave by the time I'm gone. When you were in prison, watching boxing, did it make you appreciate it or did it make you hate it even more that you could have been where they are or did it make you, I don't want to do that again? So it depends what part of my sentence, because I quite, because I've got a few years to do, the star wasn't even bothered. I didn't even think about boxing. I didn't even, I just thought it's years away yet. I didn't even think about it. I just went to the gym and I tried to get as big and strong as I could just for something to do. So yeah, I just didn't think about it, but towards the end, I remember thinking I can't wait to go to the boxing gym. That's all I wanted to do. I thought I can't wait to go to the boxing gym. You can't wait to go to the boxing gym. I come out, I went to probation and I went to the boxing gym. First thing I did, I went to see my grandparents, sorry, I went to come out, went to see my grandparents, went to the boxing gym. And yeah, I kind of fell in love with it. I definitely take a different approach to it now than I used to. It's still hard to stay motivated because I've not got a license, but then again, I've done a lot of unlicensed fights. I've done 13 of them in the past five years. But yeah, like I train hard like now, when it's time for a fight, I'll train properly and I'll leave no stone unturned. And that's why I've never lost since that. When I lost that last fight before I went away, I've knocked all of them out apart from one. That's just because I've trained properly and I take it more seriously because like I said, I'm a grown-up. I think I'm just a bit more mature as a human as a grown-up. Whereas before I was a bit like hyper, I didn't really want to train. I wanted to do this and that. But yeah, no, I definitely did miss it. I think now it's harder for them to see when you ask me when I was in there, seeing if I'd seen people boxing and thinking that could be me. I think it's harder now because I'm around them. I've sparred them. And I know how I did in sparring against them and I see people and I think I'm happy for them. I never envious of them. I just feel like, oh, I could live like I could be millionaire now. We'll title everything if I'd had the chance. But God doesn't make mistakes and God's timing is perfect. So I take solace in that when it's time or if it's every time because I might never get my license ever anywhere. But that's not because the board won't give me because God says no, he's got something else planned for me. And if that's the case, that's the case. I'm fine with that. But God willing, I'll get my license back and I will become the boxer that I believe I can be. How long have you been fainting to get your license back? Since the day I got out of jail in 2015. So seven years. Yeah. But to be fair, they did say, look, as a whole, they are mostly the same with most people. They don't give you a license if you're on license or whatever. There is the odd exception. But I just thought it's all right, call it as soon as I'm off license, then I can get it back. But now they say there's a drive-in charge pending, which is going to get taken care of anyway. So it's just a bit longer than I thought. But yeah, hopefully we'll get them. Because I'm 31 now, I ain't got too much time left. How would you feel if you got your license? I'd be emotional. Yeah. I don't think I'd be emotional getting it back. But I think the first ring walk or after the first fight, I'd be a bit emotional, I think. I just think it's a long time coming. I just feel like it's a pot. I feel like boxing is the only thing that can really give me the chance to change my life properly in the way that I wanted to change. Because it's not even about the money. The thing is with boxing, because I fought this the other day, yeah. And someone's like, yeah, you can go into this, you can do this. And I know a lot of people in industries, and they could help me put them into businesses and stuff. And I'm like, I had a conversation with myself about it. And I was thinking, even if I got a business now, and it's a normal business, and I made millions from it, it wouldn't fulfill me. And I was thinking, well, why not then if it's not about the money? Because it's definitely about money and boxing for me. But what is it more? And I think it's because I know if I win a world title, it's kind of like a fulfillment to myself to say to my school teachers, to everybody that wrote me off that just said, that was no good. The kid came good in the end. He's made something out of his life. And I think that's what really drives me. I want to make something in my life. My family are proud of me anyway, for the person I've become as I've got older. But I feel like it's more of an internal battle with myself to say, yeah, you've done good, you've changed it. And I feel like it's on a platform where everyone can say, look, the kid changed his life around, and the kid, he came good in the end, do you know what I mean? What's it like sparring with the likes of Tyson Fury, Dillion White, Tony Beall, you look so many greatest fighters on the planet. Like, how is that feeling? Yeah, it's good. I think what's good about it is they've all been at the high shalom and done it. And I feel like this is the pinnacle of the sport. It doesn't get no bigger than these guys. So if I'm in there, sharing the ring with them at a super middle weight, and he's like a heavyweight, he's a cruiserweight, and I'm having it, do you know what I mean? And I'm not jacking it and I'm giving as good as I get. It's good when he kind of gives me a confidence because I make out I'm a lot more confident than I am. I've grown in confidence as a boxer over the years. I remember before, even before, that's another thing before when I used to box pro and stuff, I used to think, I remember saying to my mate Dave Ryan, do you think you definitely going to win when you fight because it was boxed on the same, I showed you said, yeah, no doubt, I definitely going to win. He's like, don't you? I was like, I don't know, it's 50-50. I don't know, it could be dead good. So I didn't really have that confidence and it grew a lot over the past years. Now when I'm going, I think there's no way you're going to beat me. But I didn't used to be like that. So I think maybe spawn with these guys, give me the confidence and yeah. And it's good, man. I think they give good advice and especially being with them on fight build a week. When Tyson boxed Klitzko in Germany, I was there with him for that fight. And just being around it, seeing how the media works as the press conference and he's just a different kind of person to be with on fight week. When I'm telling you that man doesn't give a shit. He's not bothered. I promise you, like, I think I was a few rooms down from him. I mean, he's rang me, but this is before we're about to go to the Klitzko fight. I think we're going in like half an hour. So he's rang me. I think he probably wants to talk tactics on and I get something off his chest. He's asked me to come to his room. He wants to show me a video of cats on YouTube doing something funny. I said, are you all right in your head? I said, do you know you're about to fight him for the 500 people? He's like, yeah, yeah. And I forget that's in a bit. But look at this guy. He's funny in it. And I just thought this man doesn't care. And then we've gone to that. We've gone to the studio. We've gone to the arena, sorry. We've gone to the arena and he's demeaned, didn't change the whole time. He was dancing and he was thinking he's gone out to the fight and went on and he just doesn't care. So I feel like it was good to be around him in the venue to see how then this is what happens on big occasions and stuff. And I think when you're familiar familiar, you rise yourself with things. It doesn't become so daunting when you do it yourself. Do you know what I mean? So I think it's a good experience. And I have a lot to tell you. He's done a lot for me in my career. He's helped me a lot to get where I am and open doors for me in boxing, not even intentionally, but he just helped me just from being a friend of mine. Do you know what I mean? So he's, I have a lot to him and I respect him and a lot of them. And they've all even bow you. I speak the bow you. I ring him up and ask him for advice and he gives it me. And there's some good people in boxing, man. They go out of the way if I ask him for advice on something or even if I don't ask them, they still try and put me on someone. I say, oh, yeah, you should squat tie. He's going to be good. So it helps Tony. Bill. He was one of the best. I really do get with him. He's a crazy bastard. But they're good people, man. Yeah, he is Tony Bill. He's up there. So who's the hardest bar you've ever had? See, it's hard to say everyone asked me this because I'm quite friends with a few of them. But to be honest with you, it's very different. So Tyson is the only person that I've ever spotted that can just make me feel nullified. Like he can say, if he goes defensive against me, he's the only person I've spotted where I can go at him for a round and not land a shot. Like he's that good. And sometimes I just think, how are you this big and this fit? I'm moving that quick. So for basically boxing, for boxing masterclass, where it's like to be hit and not get hit, Tyson is superior to anyone I've ever sped. When it's come to actual this sparse hard, which I'd say Tony Bill, you, because he was just game, you know, because he, and he hits hard. I can't believe how hard he hit. So when I'm spying with him, the whole time is like, I'm in like a, it's like I'm in a fight. I've got to be on point. I'm taking shots. I'm giving shots. So that, that was good. But when I say dangerous, Dillion, he's kind of felt dangerous because he hits so hard and you could be fighting with him inside and he could just let off a shot mid combination. There was a tech one and check hook here or something. So I had to be very alert when sparring him because I'm thinking if I take one of these on the whiskers, it could be good night. Do you know what I mean? See, everyone has different, different stuff, but I've spotted a lot of good people. Anthony Joshua hits hard. I didn't realise how hard he was going to hit. We've not spotted properly. We've only done a few rounds. I think I'm going to be spying him for his camp against USIC. So I can't really give a proper honest opinion on AJ, the minibar. I know he's got, his distance to control is better than what I thought. But he punches hard, man. I give him that. I knew he could punch hard, but yeah, the guy can punch. And he's a nice guy as well. Why are you on the phone book four to spot these heavyweights? Because of how good jatters because you're about later faster. How does it work? I don't know. I guess because you don't hit, I don't really want to blow my own trumpet, but I guess it must be because how good I am because there's loads of good kids, super middleweights, but they don't ring them up for sparring. They only really ring me. One I'm southpaw, southpaw. So when they have southpaw sparring, they normally just hire other southpaws, which obviously I am one of them. But you don't hear of heavyweights calling super middleweights for sparring. But I think the thing is I can hit hard, and I can take a shot. So it's not like with a lot of super middleweights, maybe they wouldn't respect the power as much, or maybe they wouldn't be able to open up on them as much. I'm just like, if you knock me out, you knock me out. I'm getting paid to spy, I'm made to spy. Let's have it. And that's it. And I spy on them. I eat them as hard as they can. They eat me back. I mean, it's just a spot. I think the only difference is with sparring, you spy like you're having a fight. The only difference is if someone wobbles somebody, then you don't finish them off. That's the only difference really. Otherwise, you're having a fight. But yeah, I'm quite, I'm kind of a tricky nimble. So if you're sparring like you, if you're fighting your USIC, I'm good for sparring, I guess, because I stepped to this item. We've got a different style me and USIC, but there's some similarities and some aspects. So I'm not complaining. I get paid well, find the heavyweights. They get paid big money. So when they spy, they pay good money. So I'm not complaining. When I was going to say F, but when you get your license back, how fast do you think you could become world champion? God knows best, man. I tried to be fast-tracked, to be honest with you. I don't think it's nothing to do with the level of fighters. It's just to do with ring fitness. So I have to do a couple of camps back to back to get 12 round fit because I'd be all right for five rounds, six rounds. But then when you're getting seven, eight, nine, 10, 12, do you know what I mean? Even from 10 to 12, they call 11 and 12 of the championship rounds is a big difference. So it just depends on how quick I can go up the ranks and how quick, it's not even to do with the rounds, it's to do with camps, how many back to back camps I can get in at the time. I'd like to say within two years, I'd like to fight for world title. I don't mind taking risks. I have a lot of self-belief in what capability I have. My problem is my biggest fingers, I've never had the motivation to train my hardest because I'm not a pro-license, but you've got to think all these boxes, I say all these good things about me, I've never even been fit spying them. So this is just natural talent. So I imagine what I could do if I took it serious, nailed down. As soon as I get my pro-license, everything changes like I will be a gym rat. So I believe super middle way, I'll be anywhere with them anyway. So I'm not bothered about who it is, it's just to do with camps and fitness, that's what it is. So where do you go from here then? Try to get your license back and stay in, keep your head above water and just keep doing your doing your charity work, being the best brother that you can be. How do you go forward here? What if you never get your license? See, I have to plan for that eventuality. So that's why I'm literally at the minute, I'm looking into property and things like this and investing into them kind of things. I think it's a good backup plan. I think property, you never really lose if you know what you're doing right. So that's kind of a backup plan, that kind of side of the stuff, but my passion is, I'm always going to do my charity work regardless. And to be fair with the boxing, I'm not even, I want to live comfortably, but I'm not, even if I made silly money like Tyson and these like I'd ever made, I'd give most of it away. I don't need it. I think I couldn't, me personally as the person I am, I can't have, I'm not saying I don't want a big house. I want a big house and I want to live, I want to have a nice car and stuff like that, but I wouldn't be the kind of person to have like seven cars that are just sitting there and his kids starving. How can I justify having a car in my garage worth say 100 grand, 200 grand that I don't drive and his people, his kids out there that can't even eat. I couldn't, that doesn't sit well with me. So I think it's not really, it is about the money because I want to live comfortably, but it's not just about the money, it's more like I said, about the success. So hopefully I can get it back. The chances I can definitely fight anyway, regardless to anything, I can fight, I can get a license today and I can go and boxing Spain or whatever, but I want to box in Britain, I want to box in front of my people and stuff. So hopefully God willing that'll be the plan. I don't know how long, I think maybe definitely before the end of the year it should all sort itself out one way or another. That's the plan. So when you're trying to do good and be the best version that you can be, is that because of the shit that you've caused in the path? Is that because you spoke about God a lot? Is that to try and balance it out where whether you go to the golden gates above? Is that or is it just, you know what I mean? So I think it's a, it's a, it's a combination of the two. So I'm a Muslim as you already know. And in my religion, when you convert to that religion, anything you've ever done in the past is wiped clean anyway. And I turned Muslim after what I went to prison for. So everything is wiped clean because it's classed as a new slate and then obviously you judged after whatever you've done from then you judged. So I think definitely my moral compass definitely comes a lot from Islam. But regardless of that, I'm a good human being anyway, I'm a good person. So I want to do good anyway. I've always, even from a kid or a young, isn't a teenager, when I used to see like, I couldn't watch things like comic relief, I'd start crying, like things with like, innocence and kids. I have a real thing with innocence. And it really affects me like, I'm a good person, but if someone deserves something, I don't mind. Do you know what I mean? I think if, say if someone did something and someone got revenge on him, I think, well, it should have been your fault. You should have done it in the first place. I can be, I'm not like completely, oh, I'm like some angel. But I have a real thing with innocence. And I think kids, man, they're just so innocent and pure. And I just feel like when I see things on like, you know, comic relief and cherries and stuff, and I just always have an urge to help them. And I'll, or even if I see homeless people, I have a urge to just help people, you know, people that I just, they can't really help the self. And do you know what I mean? And I'm far from a multimillion or anything like that. But I'm not, I'm not homeless at the same time. I'm so blessed. Like, I've got a house over, I've got roof over my head. I've got a car, my son wants from nothing. I'm blessed anyway. So before I've even started anything from today, I'm already blessed without boxing, without anything I'm blessed anyway. So, Alhamdulillah for that from the jump. But I just want to help people, you know, I mean, that's just something it, like I say, I definitely do get a lot of my moral compass from Islam. And Islam is the best thing that have happened to me, to be honest. I think without Islam, my mental health would have been a lot more, because I've gone through bad spells, especially last year was probably the worst year of my life mentally. I went through, I just went through a lot of stuff. I think, like I said, with relationships and stuff, I couldn't, like I said, as a kid, you just want to be loved. And I couldn't, I can't connect properly with people. I'm too scared, like I'm on and off, like I've had an ex that I'd been on and off with for like five years. And to be fair, it was my fault, because it was never even meant to be nothing. And I ended up falling in love with, I fell in love with the way she treated me. She's the only female that I've met where I thought, yeah, she just loved me no matter what. And, but I couldn't, you know, I mean, commit to it too much. I tried for a bit, then a few months later, we stopped them back and forth just because of all the trauma I've gone through as a kid. And to the point where me and her was going through shit, I was going through shit with my boxing. I was going through just a load of shit in life. And I was just better. I just didn't want to leave. I just didn't leave my house. I was barely pressed and down. And I just was really upset, upset individual for a long time. Therapy helped me though. My therapy is chasing me. And she really came through for me when she connected the dots. And I'm far from perfect. I still definitely need to learn a lot more about myself. And, but I'd never really been affected by mental health. And I think because I've not been affected by it, I just kind of ignored stuff for ages. And like I said, these were the times I had to have some real honest conversations with myself. And it wasn't a nice place to be. And it was the worst place, the worst time of my life. It was even worse than prison and everything is like last year. But it helped me grow a lot. Do you know what I mean? And I think at the time I was lacking on my prayers and stuff religiously. And I feel like whenever I go far from Islam, anyway, I'm not good mentally. I think mentally Islam is the best thing that's ever happened to me. It gives me purpose. I understand the beauty of it. I mean, if you'd have known me years ago, I'm the last person in the world you'd have thought would be Muslim. I've got an older sister that's Muslim actually. And I used to take the mick out of her for being a Muslim. And it's like, are you brainwashed? Look at you. She has like, she doesn't wear a burqa, but she has like hijab. But are you little letter boxes? And I shouldn't even wear the burqa because I don't even know why a letter box is applicable at the time. But I used to rip her this and that. Then when I turn Muslim, everyone was shocked like you hypocrite this and that. But I said, if I find something I believe to be the truth, I'm not too arrogant not to admit when I'm wrong. But yeah, Islam, I'm like I said, I'm far from a perfect Muslim. I'm not sinless by any means, but I'm trying. Yeah, nobody's perfect brother. Yeah. How when you started like doing your therapy, I'd imagine you brought everything up that we kind of just spoke about there. How hard is that when that emotion comes to the forefront that you've kind of suppressed? So it was so the first time I used to see her the year before a couple of times, but the thing is I wasn't consistent. I just thought I wasn't that consistent with it. So I thought he wasn't working. Then when I finished it, I went back and I stayed consistent. I was seeing her weekly and I'm quite a macho man. I don't like to cry or anything like that. I don't cry. I literally with the four years in jail, I didn't cry at all. I just didn't I'm not someone that really cries. But when she was bringing stuff up and certain things and he was tugging on my heartstrings, I cried a few times in that room. It was a long walk back to the car. I remember walking back to the car and it was but it was good. I needed it. But she was just saying things like she'll talk about, oh, so how do your parents feel like when I was going through these shit time, I was like, well, they don't know. There's like, but you see them denote like that's the problem. Like you're just a boy that wants to be loved and it's like you're on your own. And I've spent most of my life by myself in my head. I'm physically even to this day. I have my some three days a week where if I'm not with more someone by myself, I see my friends here and there. And I guess I only post when I'm doing something but I don't just post in my room. But yeah, I'm a pop alone. I'm a popular loner. But yeah, no therapy was she helped me a lot, man. I need to jump back on it again soon because I've not been going for a while because I've been I've been good to be fair. She's helped me. I have my days and stuff. I definitely still have my days. But I think it's purpose. I have too much free time on my hands and free time. You just sit there. You have too much time when you're doing nothing and that's not good for anyone's mental health. That's what I've enjoyed coming up here a lot because it's giving me something to do. Yeah, keeping busy. Yeah. Would you ever speak to the family? I would love to speak to the family. I think that they obviously they don't want me to get my boxing license back and that's and I haven't the whole time I was never mad at them. I just thought you're with every if there was a way around, I probably wouldn't. I was mad at the boxing board and my and this is a thing that I've not touched upon and I and I want to touch up with it. My probation really didn't do me well at all. So when I first came out, I had a good probation officer Harjeet Sandhu and he's a really, really good probation officer. He tried his best to keep me on basically their job is as a probation officer is to keep someone that's been in prison and give them the chance to give to make the best of their self, keep them out of trouble. The best thing for me to do is do my boxing, keep out of trouble, stay in the gym, earn a legit money and live a good life. He was all for it and the manager was then the manager changed to a woman called Charlotte Dunkley and she just didn't like me for some reason. She says, you're not boxing. If I find out that you box, you're going to get sent back to prison. I'm going to recall you this, that and the other. And I'm just like, what do you want me to do? I have no other trade. You basically what, what, what they wanted me to do was and then what, what they wanted me to do was then go and commit crime and then put me back in prison and commit crime to get money. I'm going to turn into a burglar, a robber or something. What, why were you not, it's a legal job. And then what they done was just how horrible it was at the time. They then they changed my license to say that you're not even allowed to talk about the management of your probation. So basically they're saying, we're not letting you do none of this. And if you talk about let anybody know we're not letting you do this, we're going to send you back to prison. So people are like, they're asking me in interviews, why aren't you boxing? And I'm like, I can't even say it. So basically they're treating me like shit in probation. They didn't give me no help. They never asked me, literally for the seven years or seven and a half years as unlicensed, they just basically said, been up to anything. No, not been boxed. You know, they couldn't stop me from boxing. So I found a loophole. Luckily, they couldn't stop me from boxing, but they could stop me getting paid to box because it's class is a job. So I said, all right, then I'm boxing for free. How much? No, unlicensed. So I had like 13 unlicensed fights. And yeah, I said, Oh, boxing for free then. That's my angle of getting around it. Do you know what I mean? But yeah, they just, they just didn't want the best for me at all. I just felt like they was really against me, anything I did, anything I tried to do to better myself. I even, even one time when I boxed, I give all my money to this young little girl. She had cancer. And I give all my winnings, what I got saved up like, what round with a bucket and stuff. I met her dad, I give it to him, signed. They even questioned me that I'd not give it to her. So I said, do you think I'm lying about a sick little girl? What do you think I've done kept the money? So I spoke, this is what we want to let her from the parents. I told her dad, her mom was fuming. She wrote a proper standard to probation. Like he came, he gave us this amount of money on this date, this that and the other. I can't believe you even implying this, but they were just not letting me do anything. Do you know what I mean? He's just like, I just felt like they was really against me. Not my probation officers, the manager. She was just like, I hardly ever seen her because she was like upstairs. She wouldn't even come down much or she probably wasn't even there much. But yeah, I just felt probation was hard. Man, I just felt like I couldn't wait for probation to finish. I just thought, I'm trying to better my life the best way I know how. And none of you lot want to let me do it. And I just refused. I just fought in my head. Sometimes I was just close to just going off the rails again, thinking, fuck it. This is what you want. You're going to get it. And I just thought, I'm not letting you beat me, man. I'm going to become a success. And I'm going to make something out of myself. So I just thought, it's not going to last forever. And look, eventually I'll come off licence and I'm a free man. Yeah. So going forward to the future. Brother, what's the plans? Yeah. So the plan now is hopefully, bro, to get my licence back one way or another. In the minute, I think I'm just going to get a foreign licence and fight abroad for the next couple of months. And then while I'm trying to start this British out. And then, yeah, whether it's a British licence or a foreign licence, just try and get out as much as I can, get as good a few fights in, and just step up the ranks really quickly, really. And just get back on the scene, carry on with my charity, and just try and spread some positivity in the road, man. For anybody that's maybe battling mental health just now, what advice would you have for them? Don't suffer in silence. It's hard, though, as a man, like, you know, yourself to ask for help. But like I said, perfect example, tithing through a heavyweight champion of the world. If he's not, if he can go for it, then anyone of us can go for it, you know what I mean? I think it's, I think the good thing about it now is a lot of men are starting to talk about it. And it is tough, man. I just think definitely go and seek advice. It speak to somebody that you can close to. And if there's no one that you really want to speak to around you, then go and see a fair piece. Go and speak to your doctor. And it's help out there. So make sure you seek it, man, because there's nothing worse than when people take their lives and things like that. I just find it so sad. And what must they be going through to want to do that? Do you know what I mean? I think there's always, there's always like the end of the tunnel, man. And if you seek help, you'll get through it, man, 100%. If the family that's watching about the kid who lost his life, what would you say to them? I just, I just feel like, I feel like they might have believed that I had no remorse. And I think I'd want them to know like how sorry I am and how much this hurts me. Do you know what I mean? Because it's, I can't even explain it to words like, I have to live with this. Do you know what I mean? And it's hard, man. I just feel, I think about them a lot. Do you know what I mean? I just feel like, especially when I'm with my son, my son is my absolute word. I'm absolutely addicted to him. He's the only pure thing I've ever had in this world. And I literally, I don't leave, I don't put him down. And I just feel like that's what really hit it on for me. When I had my own son, I just thought, imagine if anything happened to him. Do you know what I mean? And now, now when I've inflicted that pain on somebody else, it's hard, it's like I said, it's a hard reality to live with. And I'd want them to know how sorry I am that I had to happen and that I can't change it and bring him back. But what I can try and do is stop other pickets from making the same mistake and putting their family, putting someone else's family, what I put their family through. Yeah. Do you think you could get some sort of peace for that if someone did reach out and see how remorseful you are and that you're not wanting your license back to and all you anybody else is just on the trade you've got. You've got to feed your own son. You've got to put food on the table. Do you think you would never get proper closure for it? But to come face to face with a parent like that, then it would be tough. But it would give you some sort of peace of mind to say, I forgive you. Does that help, would help? I think it'd be very hard for me to even face him, to be honest. A cowardly of me, but I would do because, but I don't think, I wouldn't blame him if they didn't forgive me. But it would definitely, if I knew that they could see the person that I've become from it, it would give me peace, a bit more peace to think, okay, look, they can have some solace in there and I'm trying to put some good back into the wood. That would, yeah, it'd help a lot, I think. Would you like to finish up on anything, brother? I can't think of nothing. Just thanks for having me, but I appreciate it when I think your platform is amazing. Like I say, I watch your videos and I think you're doing a good thing by letting people, people have an opinion on people that they read and this and that and I think this podcast is very honest, it's very open and you get a chance to see the other side of people's lives because I think there's only one side of a story told. I think no one even knew that there was a negligence in hospital. Nobody knew that, how I feel, how emotional I am. People don't know these things and same with all the other guests you've had on. So I think it's a dead good thing, man and I hope God keeps blessing it and keeps making it go as good as it's going. Brother, that's all people can do is express how they feel and think and other people being the judge of that. Not everybody's ever going to like one person. There's always going to be hate, there's always going to be love. There's just all different emotions from all around the world but I know that they've been tough for you to come on the day and late in the line like you probably feel a bit drained after this because it's not easy to put it out there and your story out there but to create change, create awareness and keep pushing towards being a better you. All you can do is be honest with yourself. Everything else is second nature. To come on today and tell your story and listen and late out there, I wish you all the best for your future. I know you're a class, you're a friend, brother and genuinely wish you all the best for your future. I hope you get your license back. I hope I'm standing on the right side one time when you're lifting up the world champion. I'll back you 1 million percent. They've all got a pass. We all make mistakes but I can only treat people the way they treat me and you treat me with respect so I'll treat you the exact same, brother. Thank you. Thank you for having me. We'll play with you again. Take care, mate. Thank you, brother.