 I've been given the thumbs up from the back of the room, which basically means get a move on Jeff We have to have you out of here in 45 minutes. So I'll make a start. Thank you for coming It's nice to see a turn out. You never know with these things when they're being recorded people. I'll just watch it later Watch it later and no one's here. So but thank you. It's good to see you So my name's Jeff and I'm gonna be talking to you about taking a mindful approach to product ownership Who went to Deborah Searle's keynote this morning and who went to Jia Zhang's keynote this morning So we've got a mixture of people in the room There was actually a common thread in both of those talks obviously you can't be in two places at the same time, but I'm lucky that I've managed to see both of those talks and This talk really is about The thread that was common to both of those talks which is around having a choice About how you view things and how you react to situations So I'm going to be following that thread in this talk here Now both of those talks were quite inspiring and focused very much on the positive side of things But knowing that you have a choice about how you react and a choice over your emotions Can be quite daunting Because then if you think well if I do have a choice and I fail to make a positive choice Am I failing? So what I'm going to try and do here is to talk to you about a different aspect of choosing your approach to things Understanding where your defaults might be coming from Why it might be a little bit difficult in some situations to make the choice that you want And perhaps a couple of techniques that you can Try to give yourself a better chance of doing that to be more successful This is in the product owner track mainly because The product owner job product owner role is often described as an impossible job It's probably the hardest Of the three scrum roles. There are a lot of challenges to the product owner role What I'm going to talk about here isn't relevant to just the product owner It's relevant to basically anyone because believe it or not product owners are human beings And uh, just like anybody else all human beings have some challenges They'll have some stresses some problems that they need to deal with Product owners and they have to deal with difficult stakeholders who have competing demands They have to deal with budgets and timescales. They have to deal with developers They have to they have to deal with themselves. They have to prioritize They have to deal with customers and users and getting feedback and giving feedback all sorts of things that will make a product owner's job Quite difficult Well under a lot of pressure to deliver and receive some return on the investment that they're probably safeguarding So my aim here is to help you understand What might be driving you? And once you understand what might be driving you then you can use that knowledge to Be better at mastering yourself really. This is all about self mastery as a product owner I wanted to start with a quick story. I know technically I have already started but um a quick story and I'm going to take you back in time Some of you might not have been alive in 1981, but I want to take you back to 1981 in Australia And what they call the ultramarathon Has anybody taken part in the ultramarathon? No Can't see why anybody would but back in 1981. This was from sydney to melbourne. No, I've never even been to australia But apparently that's quite a long way. It's uh 544 miles and if you type it into google maps, it says it'll take you 187 hours to walk it These people For whatever reason decided they wanted to run that To run that distance and back in 1981. There were 150 World-class athletes highly trained who'd been training for months to do this probably years All in there, you know really expensive 80s short short running kit Um ready to go primed and there was one 61 year old potato farmer Who turned up in his wellington boots? and his farming kit And his view was well, I spend a lot of time in the fields I could probably run a marathon Why not? And he looked quite odd Lining up against these athletes in there in their kit. His name was uh cliff young And you won't be surprised to know that he won this race Maybe you are surprised. I don't know the conventional wisdom at the time for running this ultramarathon Was what they called 186 So you'd run for 18 hours and you'd sleep for six and then you'd run for 18 hours and you'd sleep for six But cliff young either didn't know about that conventional wisdom or thought screw it And he did what became known as the cliff shuffle He basically just shuffled continuously for days And while all these elite athletes were resting for six hours, he just kept on going And he won and that was quite surprising. So why am I telling you this story? Well cliff didn't go with the conventional wisdom He didn't just go with well, this is how we are going to do it. This is how we've always done it either through idiocy Or naivety Or bravery Whatever it was he challenged their assumptions your that your uh his assumptions and he changed the way that these things were run So I want to say this isn't a therapy session. Okay, I don't want anyone lying down on a couch I say that because what I'm going to introduce I'm going to introduce a model to you. All right now all models are wrong I want to say that off the bat All models are wrong But some models can be useful So I'm introducing a model to you it is based in therapy and it's drawn from um Um Basically what happens to you as a kid will influence what you are like as an adult But no matter what you do if you've got kids you will screw up your kids It's just the case of how you will screw them up All right, so it's not about you leaving here thinking oh, I've been a bad parent Or I'm going to go back and be a better parent or anything like that It's not about resolving your childhood dilemmas or anything like that It's just a model that I'm going to give you that you might be able to use something from Uh, so it's not a therapy session Uh, it's called the transactional analysis drivers All right. Now there are five drivers They they come from a couple of people's work that not necessarily working together just in case you're interested I put some references at the end But they're basically from a couple of guys called uh, I can't pronounce their names tibie kala and eric burn There's a couple of book references at the end And what they found was that there are basically five Drivers that affect people from the messages that they receive as a kid A child the first one is hurry up Yeah, so be quick get on with it. Let's go. We're late. These kinds of messages that we give our kids and they Grow up with this hurry up driver. There's a please me driver Yeah, so make sure I'm happy There's the be perfect driver There's the be strong driver And there's the try hard driver I'm just briefly talk to you about these five drivers Why they're relevant to a product owner and what you might be able to do once you're more aware of them Okay, so the first one is hurry up Some symptoms of the hurry up driver. You won't be surprised to know People start talking quickly All right, if you notice yourself talking quicker and quicker, it's probably this driver kicking in you start getting nervous You start getting fidgety. You might tap your feet a little bit more You probably won't notice this until I mention it but now you're noticing it you're checking your watch Possibly that's because you've boarded this session already, but this am I late am I on time? When do I need to be at my next meeting? These kinds of things are going through our heads often unconsciously and then the idea of multitasking So if you see these symptoms in yourself or somebody else, there's a good chance. They're being driven by this hurry up driver So I'm going to ask you guys now. I'm going to take a risk And ask an audience in britain for some audience audience participation what kind of Consequences do you think this might have for someone in a product owner role if they're being driven by hurry up Stress, yeah What kind of mistakes that are relevant to a product owner Okay, yeah, so they might focus more on their schedule than the product Quality might be compromised because we want to we want to get things out really quickly anything else Less presence. Yeah, people know that you're you're rushing them. You get this sense that Like they want me to shut up. They want to move on. Perhaps. I don't even get to finish my sentences I'm less present I can pass that stress on Debra Searle for those of you in there talked about contagious positive attitude and Right, so we can pass that on to the team. They might feel that they have to rush things They have to do more do quicker. So we might end up Releasing too early now releasing early is a good thing in an agile environment We want to be first. We want to be quick to market. We've got to beat our competitors We talk about sprints in scrum, but if we're if we're driving too quickly and this hurry up driver, then absolutely We could compromise quality Now you could say that was a nice little Input there of me talking too quickly and stumbling over my words just to make a point It was an accident We can burn ourselves out We can burn our team out. Yeah, this is very hard to sustain in the long run And we talk about sustainable pace In terms of mistakes product owners will also look at what we call surface level data So in order to make good decisions, they're never going to make perfect decisions as a product owner because they're not going to have complete information So they have to make some decisions But if they're being driven by a hurry up driver, they won't really do the the root cause analysis They won't go beneath the surface. They won't draw the appropriate conclusions They won't see the patterns in the data. They'll just make a quick decision a quick decision and move on So product owners hurry up driver not a bad thing But it can quite easily get out of control The please me driver All right, so kids that are growing up being taught you gotta be gotta be good gotta be nice gotta make people happy Gotta make people smile if you find yourself or somebody else Saying is that okay quite a lot making sure they're not upset All right, I don't want to cause any conflict those kinds of questions Then you might be doing that asking people's opinion often before you put yours forward because you want to make sure you don't upset them or compromise them Avoiding conflict not breaking rules I quite like breaking rules Um, so this one doesn't really affect me too much But if you find yourself finding it hard to say no to people that can be a symptom that you have this please me driver Why might that have consequences for a product owner? Right, so people loads of people are going to ask us for stuff. They know we're an easy win Yeah, let's go and ask Jeff. He'll say yes, we'll get it on his backlog and we get overwhelmed It's really hard to prioritize. It's really hard to focus. We're probably multitasking compromising everything We get feature bloat Yeah, and then that compromises our hurry up driver because we've got too many features We can't release it which causes us stress And causes the team stress So we've got to deal with feedback as well Yeah, as a product owner i'm putting my product out there in an incremental stage and asking for feedback What do you think? How could this get better? What features would you like next? What do you think of the features that we've delivered so far? And if we can't really take that feedback in an impersonal way that could be quite a destroying piece of Communication I take it very personally and I may May hesitate in providing feedback to the team because I don't want to upset them And focus so much on keeping people happy that I'm not going to make the ruthless decisions necessary Or give the brutal feedback that's necessary to make this product a success Prioritization could be a problem and we could end up with a camel Does that phrase mean anything to you? No, I was told that a camel Was a horse that was designed by a committee I get into trouble because people like camels and they said camels serve a really good purpose But it's an analogy the idea that no one really wanted a camel Everybody wanted a horse, but they had their idea of what a horse was and we ended up with a camel And as a product owner if I say yes to everyone I'm going to try and please everybody and end up pleasing nobody because I haven't really focused on my actual core users needs So please me driver can end up really impacting your product owner's success and also their stress levels The third driver is called be perfect. Okay, so if we see Somebody with really really high standards again, this is a good thing Just like pleasing people is a good thing. You don't want to be an ass your whole life Sorry, I'm being recorded Yeah, uh, my job is to swear less than Nigel Baker. Well, I'm on camera So I've set the bar there. I'm not I'm not aiming for perfection. Just less than Nigel So high standards are a good thing. Okay, but these standards have to be achievable. They have to be believed to be achievable People with a be perfect driver think very logically and rationally Analysis is a good thing. We think if we analyze this problem enough, we can find the right answer So we don't really act on intuition Uh, we we don't really like working making decisions with incomplete information Uh, so if it's not a right angle, it's the wrong angle, you know, you know people like that And always put in their pictures straight making sure their pens are there and the papers That kind of like ocd. I love having fun with people like that um The right angles and this idea of control because if I let go of control It might not be right. I might not be perfect. I can't really trust anybody else Because there's only one way to do it and that's my way Yeah So what consequences could we have as a product only thinking about someone who's developing a product working with a team Building something for users. What what consequences might a be perfect driver have? We never finish. We keep going. Yeah, there's always something we could do to improve it a little bit more Detailed too much detail too much detail. The little things will override the big things. Yeah Sorry No room to learn right, but if we if we focus on perfection Then the idea of getting something wrong is quite scary But in order to learn we need to get things wrong now and again or at least not quite perfect It's that area where we're actually going to learn stuff and from an agile perspective We need to learn because we can't get something perfect straight away. We're operating in that environment where things are too complex They're changing too rapidly So this is going to be quite stressful for us if we can't manage this So good, uh, we get less innovation. We get less learning the time to market will will drop because we're trying to get the Perfect product and we end up gold plating Common problems for a prototype The fourth driver is be strong. So this is you know, you can do this Don't be brave that kind of message that we send to our kids tough it out keep going So you often hear people say, yeah, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that. I can do that I probably don't need any help with it either. Yeah, I'm all right. I've got this you can trust me rely on me And and these people also when they see people struggling We'll we'll can't resist the temptation to jump in and and rescue them All right, uh, because we I am I am strong Jeff strong. I rescue all right this strong driver Um, and these people they they are very fact focused as well And this idea of feelings kind of gets in the way of being strong We kind of hide our emotions and feeding feelings bury them down because that is weakness They're very british Feelings are weakness So what consequences could we have? If we're a product owner being driven by a be strong driver We take on too much work Yeah, we get into analysis paralysis. We don't come up for air. We don't ask for help. So things just drag on We don't you know the data. Yeah, I'm still working on that the daily scrum four days in a row. I don't need any help It's fine. It'll be done today Sure, it will Okay, yeah things can go on anything else We don't really got a sense of team absolutely and in order to get Collaboration with our team we need to show vulnerability and we need to let it be known that vulnerability is okay We don't have to be strong all the time asking for help is a sign of strength that kind of message We want to be sending out. So we will resist feedback because that will probably Probably undermine our feeling of strength We also less open to noticing our cognitive biases because again, we don't want to show a sign of weakness We actually want reassurance that what we're thinking is the right thing So we will actually convince ourselves and reinforce that belief We don't develop rapport because people don't feel they can trust us. They don't really feel Open because they feel they have to be strong as well So other people start playing it safe We don't want to make mistakes because that the leader's behavior and a product owner is a leader Okay, product owner is a very much a leader People pay attention to the leader's behavior The leader's behavior is when the number one thing that affects the culture of a team and an organization People pay much more attention to what you do than what you say So you can say failure is acceptable You can say we want to learn you can say we want to inspect and adapt But if you don't demonstrate it in your behaviors, the behavior is what people will copy Because that's the safe thing Final one try hard All right, um, so this is and again, this is a good thing trying hard is a good thing All right, and some of the messages behind it are a good thing You know, it doesn't matter if you win or lose just try hard play the game do your best that kind of thing It's a good thing But if it overly drives us then it becomes a problem So here effort is the most important thing as long as you're trying hard. I'm not too worried about whether you're successful This sense of justice Somehow creeps in all right. We want we want things to be just we want things to be fair So we spend a lot of time writing the wrongs of what's going on in the organization because that's not fair It's about effort making sure that we're in the right place This I'm not sure whether the phrase flogging a dead horse translates outside of England Kind of yeah, so there's no point whipping a horse that's dead But we often do we know this project is not going to succeed. We know it's a dead It's you know the death march, but we keep going because that's what we do Yeah, we don't give up Uh, we often fail to meet goals, but that's okay because we're trying hard So we don't really push ourselves that that much these are kind of symptoms that we'll see We notice that I think okay, maybe we've got a try hard driver going on here So some consequences it can be quite intimidating to other people if they don't feel they have the same kind of resilience You might have been intimidated by Deborah Sells Talk I think well, I couldn't do that You know, it's all very well her standing out there saying I rode across the ocean, but I couldn't do that I'm just a normal person It's gonna be quite intimidating this try hard driver We get very attached to our views And very unlikely to let go of them. So in terms of collaboration Very fixed and again from a product owners perspective, we're looking to iterate We we want the best product owners that I know they'll argue as if they're right But they will listen as if they're wrong So they will they will be passionate about their their views their beliefs their vision The features the sprint goals all that kind of thing But they will be open to feedback from other people But if we're trying hard we want to keep going in the same direction. We don't know when to stop So we often end up with quite a lot of failed sprints Um, because we'll we'll try hard, but we won't actually make it And that leads to a loss of faith From our sponsors people who are actually funding this product unless I'm a product owner I'm paying for this out of my own pocket I've got to be answerable to somebody with the budget somebody with the check And these people if they see lots of failed sprints, they're just going to pull the plug All right, trying hards all well and good, but if you're spending my money I want to see results So there's a problem What can we do? Well, I said this is a mindful approach to product ownership I I did I was toying with the idea of just sitting on the table at the front in a buddha pose And saying we're just going to meditate for 30 minutes and see how many people actually believe me But I thought I'm video so I can't really take that gamble The idea behind this is if you can take a slightly more mindful approach What I mean by mean by a mindful approach is being more aware of what's going on as as Debra Sir and Jia Zhang was saying Notice your thoughts and you are you are free to choose your thoughts Accept that Then you can reduce your stress you can be more successful You can build better relationships with teams and you can build better products So we get better products and Because people take take notice of our actions if we can be a little bit more mindful Then other people can be a little bit more mindful and we can start role modeling this throughout our organization So listen is there's good reasons for doing it What's involved well the four a's First of all is awareness. Okay, so just notice it. Hopefully Say hopefully that might might be a bit harsh, but yeah, hopefully you'll have looked at some of those drivers and thought Yeah, that's me That's me Yeah, I can see how that must annoy people It's not about saying bad Jeff. Okay, just being aware of it. That's the first thing that you can do, right? Once you're aware of it, just accept it. It's normal. All right, it doesn't mean you're bad You can't no matter what you do you're going to screw your kids at no matter how good your parents were They're going to screw you up. You're going to be left with some baggage. All right This this is just your baggage accept it. Everyone else has their baggage So what? There's also benefits to it. So accept that Take the positives of your be perfect driver Then once you've got some awareness and you're feeling okay with yourself You've stopped beating yourself up about it. Then just take some small action Just do something All right, and then maybe adjust based on the reaction you get the response you get So what does that mean in practice? Well as an example question What do I think will happen if? And put in your particular driver here what what do I think will happen if this presentation? Isn't perfect. So before before you guys came in I was thinking right. I haven't done this presentation before You know, what am I actually worried about? If it's not perfect Do I think people are going to walk out? Do I think people are going to throw fruit at me? Do I think I'll never get a job in my life again? What what's actually going on if I can name it then I can then I can analyze whether it's actually likely All right, how likely is it that people will walk out or throw fruit at me or never? I'll never get a job in my life again. Maybe it is likely But if it is and I've named it then I can start taking some action to reduce the likelihood of that happening But there's also a good chance that I analyze it. I think you know what? It's unlikely People don't expect perfection. And also you guys don't know what I was supposed to say So if I forget something then what the hell you don't know that I'm the only one who knows what's in my slide deck So I can assess whether it's likely and then if there is anything I can do Maybe just to reduce that chance by 10% Then I'm in a better place than I was So what could I do? I could rehearse Something I could do. All right. I could give myself some some prompt cards or I had I had a wonderful avi person Go out and get me a long cable so I could have my laptop here in case I forgot something. It's there You guys didn't know that until I told you But it gave me a little bit of extra security So is there anything I can do to reduce that by 10%? And then if it does happen if the worst happens if my fear becomes a reality What could I do? To rescue that situation. How could I respond? Okay, so if you do start leaving if you do start walking out How could I how could I respond to that or if I do stumble if I do make a mistake? What could I do? I could maybe make a joke out of it That makes it a little bit easier for me to not be perfect and then finally If it does happen How might that be a positive? So let's say this presentation isn't perfect Just hypothetically All right, how might that be a positive for me? I'll learn something. I might learn that I never want to give presentations again Maybe what else? What silver lining could possibly happen from this presentation not being perfect? Something else not to do it. Yes, you could all take away if nothing else. I'm never going to present like Jeff And I've changed the world, right? I put a dent. I put a ding in the universe Good. Thanks for that anything else Sorry I can get feedback. Okay, so if this is my job and I have to do another presentation on friday Hypothetically, then I might that one might go better Yeah, if I'm open to it. So there are some positives to it. I might actually think well, do you know what? It didn't the world didn't end It didn't go that badly. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't that bad and I can apply that knowledge To something else in my life. It doesn't just have to be about my speaking I may have this perfect driver of something else and okay, maybe that just reduces my stress a little Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe that will help me in somewhere other area So that's the kind of thought process that we can go through there And so going up going away from this. What can you do? Well? Have a go at trying something different Okay, so ask yourself that question What do I think is going to happen if I'm not perfect? What do I think is going to happen if I'm not On time if I'm a little bit late I don't have to hurry up so much and then keep track Just at the end of the day. How many times did I take my time instead of rushing? One two three that's three more than yesterday And you can start changing your definition of yourself from I'm somebody who hates being late to I'm somebody who can tolerate that When it's not too problematic or whatever your definition is more helpful How many times did I ask for help today? One two three keep track and you start reminding yourself. This is evidence That you are not the person you defined yourself as a month ago A more helpful definition. How many times did I say no? I said there's some references here. So there are a few books Um, and they they could be helpful to you. Obviously, I'm putting my own in there as well Um And I have thankfully managed to leave some time for questions I didn't know how much time I was going to have but it looks like I've got 15 minutes. It's a bit of a gamble But I have got a microphone So does anybody want to be on camera? This is your moment Anybody got any questions they would like to ask or discussions they would like to talk about anything at all around this area Yes Thank you Could you please explore a little bit the relationship between those drivers and the Cycle this improvement cycle that you mentioned in the end The this one. Yeah, this you have the cycle on the one hand and then you have those drivers And I'm still sort of struggling of how to get those two aspects together. Okay, cool So the idea behind this cycle is that we can look at Whatever driver I think is not working particularly helpfully for me. So if it's my my hurry up driver I think okay, this is now. I'm aware of it. I'm looking at it thinking that's causing me some issues All right, either I'm highly stressed my decisions. I'm rushing Qualities being compromised or the team are really struggling to to meet their deadlines in the sprint or whatever What can I do about that? I want to redefine my value driver so that it's working more helpfully for me and this is my thought process For how I go about just slightly adjusting that So what would happen if I did take my time? I know people want this they want me to reply to this email or write this report or make this decision By end of play today. What would happen if I didn't? What would happen if I took myself a little bit more time? What's going on in my head? What assumptions am I making? Do I really think they're going to sack me if I don't do this? Do I really think that the project will fail if I don't make this decision on time? I believe this decision needs a little bit more thought therefore I'm going to make myself take a little bit more time. So listing out the assumptions What do I think is going to happen if this and there may be four or five? Work out which ones of those are likely are actual going to happen because I don't know a few like me but while they're in my head I tend to catastrophize That's a good word. All right. I tend to blow think these problems they inflate In my head they just sort of bounce around and I'm not naming them But as soon as I label them as soon as I write them down or verbalize them Possibly to somebody else This is what I'm worried about really you're worried about that Really is that likely to happen? Do you really think that's going to happen? Okay, maybe not maybe there's a 50% chance of it happening I can list them out some of them I can get rid of because I know they're actually not worth worrying about anymore Some of them they are worth worrying about and those ones I'm going to try and reduce just by a little bit I don't want to set myself. I get get rid of this problem, but I can reduce it And then I'm in a little bit more control Some of the things might not be within my control And accepting that Deborah Sirlegan said control the controllables. She can't control the waves. All right, but she can control her responses to them So if it does happen, how can I respond? What will be the most helpful response for me? And maybe maybe just maybe There is a positive that I can take from my fear becoming reality And I can use that to redefine how much that driver controls me But making the unconscious conscious I'm in control of my thoughts rather than my thoughts being in control of me Does that make sense? Thank you for the question Yes, let's pass let's pass the microphone. Let's see how quickly we can get it back. Keep your hand up So we know where we're going You can shout Mentos. Come on Mentos Is this an idea that you uh used with a real product or no? Yeah Yeah Yeah, I mean it's it's not for everyone, right? It's a little bit touchy-feely. We're talking about the feeling They've got to trust me to be open with these things But equally it's something that they can they can do on their own if they think it's valuable to them This is a process that you can take away. You don't need a coach for this. You can kind of coach yourself on this But one of the prompts was potentially from somebody else Yeah, and Deborah was saying she had some strategies in place. She had her playlist. That was her self coaching playlist When she knew things were getting on top of her she would put on her her memories playlist or her no playlist But equally she relied on external prompts. So she got some text messages from people She got text messages from her sister to just Remind her to get back into that state of mind And that's where I can play a part with some of the product owners that I coach If that's something that they find would find valuable Thanks. Thanks Mentos. Yes, just just down the line. Maybe maybe a similar question But where you notice these traits in others, what advice would you give to help them to come to recognize and address those? It's an interesting one. So I it's not about necessarily me Helping them do anything it's it's helping them become become aware of it if if it's a value to them If it's problematic to them and it's probably more a case of Analyzing what's going on for them if things are working perfectly, why would they need to worry about this? Yeah, so it's analyzing something that perhaps hasn't gone particularly perfectly for them What might be going on about that and without being too cliche, you know Michael Jackson The only thing you can really change is what's in the mirror, right? You can maybe affect your Environment and your surroundings and things but the best the thing you have most control over is yourself So if they want to change something if they want to make things better for themselves Then you can help by being that mirror if that's what they want, but I wouldn't go around saying I think you're You've got this going on here. I think you should change that Yeah, that's not that's not I don't have the right to do that Yes, can we get the microphone back over here as well? Sorry, you want to shout? Yeah, I can so Ten percent. Yeah Or why not five or why not 30? Yeah I would I would say I picked 10 percent because of my culture I would say 10 percent is a small amount. It's manageable. It's a round number people are attracted to round numbers But I would take 1 percent Yeah, it's about it's just any kind of forward momentum Generally the people that I work with 10 percent seems achievable Yeah Without being too daunting Any other questions? Yes Do you want the microphone or do you want to shout? Have the mic In the title of your presentation you talk you had the word mindfulness I was just curious to know whether you practice mindfulness yourself. Yeah, and if so, would you like to share Sure, so mindfulness is a big thing in our household at the moment so I got I got 16 year old daughter. Oh, she's nearly 16 16 next a couple weeks time and I got 12 year old son and I I think I'm a I'm a decent coach But I can't coach my family Okay, I coach my son's cricket team and everyone on the team will listen to me but my son. All right So I've given up trying to coach them But what I can do is I can give them some tools and so Um, and I can share my experiences and so, you know when things are overwhelming for me Then I've got this little app called headspace. Some of you probably come across. I'm not I'm not advertising I don't get any money from it. There are other apps available Um, but that's the that's the one we currently use in our household And so my son's struggling at the moment. He's got some uh injuries that he's He can't play sport. It's getting him down. He's not able to sleep at night And he's getting stressed and things and so he won't listen to me, but he'll listen to the app Saying exactly the same thing so every night before he goes to bed He just puts his headphones on and he listens to this You know get more in control know where the pain is coming from be more aware of it Then you can start to manage it that kind of thing Um, and so mine from this working out where things are coming from working out where your thoughts are coming from Where your thoughts are directed and which ones of those are helpful or not as with anything It's a practice thing. It takes patience. It takes repetition Um, and it also takes a little bit of well, certainly for me a little bit of bravery because that was a bit touchy-feely for me to begin with Um Now i'm abitting it in front in front of a camera, which a bit weird But Thanks for the question Okay, I've got a few minutes left. Yes Uh, so I think the is that pink salmon salmon colored jumper Thank you So it's the idea of the drivers that everybody fits to one single driver Or can I have a mixture of you can have as many as you want me? For what it's worth i'm messed up. So You know i i i'm impatient I have a hurry up driver I've been taught these messages be strong. Don't ask for help that kind of thing Which is why i'm an independent and i'm not part of a company. Nigel will tell you jeff's alone wolf He doesn't ask for help. So i've got a mixture of these kinds of things as well Yeah, so you can be as messed up as you like And then pick whichever one is working for you the most Leave that one and focus on the one that's causing you the most problems at the moment Make some progress in that and what you'll probably find is once you start getting more in control of one of them That knowledge that awareness that mastery will help you in all of them Yeah Um, but by the time you get to that one you've forgotten what you've done over there So it's a constant process right it's it's it's life Thank you for the question and blue shirt I just have a question jeff. I'm really interested in as a coach It was it was a little bit flippant. I can I can coach my kids, but only when they want to be coached All right, so they know what I do But equally I think it's a cut without getting too deep into the whole sort of Psycho analysis thing kids want to prove themselves to their parents, right? They don't want to Ask for help. They want to they want to show off. They want to show what they can do So asking for help for your parents is it's kind of their last resort if you like I can when they want to be But usually I have an agenda as a parent So I can't be completely neutral Even if I want to be neutral my kids don't see me as neutral They see me as a parent who wants them to go to bed on time who wants them to do their homework you know these kinds of things but If they if they get to a point where they think okay, they might be able to help me then they will ask for that They know what coaching is now Yeah, one of my favorite quotes is from from a ester derby some of you will know ester And she said as a coach coaching has to be voluntary. Okay, you can't go around inflicting your help on people And and as much and that's that's one of the most difficult things as a parent, isn't it? Right, you see your kids you want to help them. I don't want to tell them what to do. I want I want Self-actualization. I want them to own there be more own. Yeah, that kind of thing But I'm not I'm the wrong person for that. Yeah, I'm almost the last person but sometimes Sometimes thank you for the question There was another hand around here somewhere My presentation one Yeah, I mean I'm a patience thing. So I'm I'm getting a little bit more actually somebody Somebody asked me a while ago so I've been teacher as part of my job is I teach scrum and Somebody asked me a while ago. You've been doing this for like 14 years now. What's different? What's different in your approach to when you started? And my answer was I care less And you know exactly right I got for everybody else you You care less well, I'm not coming to one of your training courses And so I was asked what do I mean by that and I said well at the start I took it upon myself To make sure that they left with every piece of knowledge And that they were going to go out and change their worlds them day one All right, and if anybody had a feedback mark of less than five out of five That I obviously hadn't done my job Now I know I can't control that I'm a little bit more aware of that's my thought process And I've set myself more realistic targets for those things. It's up to them to care Okay, my job is just to give them potential that they could use So that's that was what what would happen if they didn't leave And how could that be a good thing? Well, they might actually find out that scrum is not for them And that's success as well, right So that's that's I didn't even realize I was kind of doing that that was just sort of emerged over time But if I'd have been more conscious about that I could have saved myself a few years of stress Thank you Okay, we've got probably got time for one more question Yes I've lost the mic. Where's the mic all the way back? Just because you're at the front I mean you're speaking this way and they're that way so Have you ever experienced a culture where that mindset doesn't fit? Have I experienced a culture where what to the mindfulness? Yeah, but the approach Um, when you say culture do you mean organizational or national or okay organizational? No um Because I found that no organization. No, no, no organization Has such a coherent culture That the whole of the organization wouldn't be open to it But equally I've never known an organization with such a coherent culture that all of the organization would Be open to it and like I said, I wasn't It it took me a while to come around to the fact that this could be useful for me because I had this be strong driver And this was a form of help And as people have to be in the right place for it They have to feel safe to do it But there will be somewhere in the organization Some one some department some some island of safety Where they will get some value from this and then it becomes a case of They've changed What are they doing? Curiosity people are nosy Yeah, they want to know and this this this started the same kind of thing with with regards to scrum when I was at British telecom We had such a big company that as a company you'd say no, they're resistant to it But there were some pockets and when those some pockets had some success other people were curious And so we started So what are you doing? What was this was this rugby thing? Um, she used to be working. I want so can I have some rugby? And and it started to ripple out and it's a it's a case of patience really and again not inflicting your help putting it out If they want it, they'll pull it if they don't they won't Yeah Thank you for the question Okay, I need to wrap up I took a gamble on on getting you involved and I really appreciate you joining in asking some questions as we're going Thank you for that I've enjoyed it And I hope you carry on getting more value from from the gathering It's a great place. There's loads of great sessions coming on. So enjoy the rest of your day and tomorrow. Thank you