 Thank you. Good morning, members, officers and any members of the public who are viewing the live stream of this meeting. Welcome to this meeting of the Cirque Faire's committee. My name is Councillor Peter Fane. I'm chairing this meeting. For the information of members of the public, our committee is responsible for reviewing the constitutional electoral arrangements and for promoting and maintaining ethical standards on the council. So let me start with a few housekeeping announcements. Please, for those in the chamber, remember that everything on your desk, including your laptop screen, is likely to be visible at some point on the broadcast. The camera follows the microphone being switched on, so councillors and officers asked to wait a couple of seconds before speaking. Allow the camera to catch up. For those participating in the meeting via the live stream, I think probably just one. Welcome. Please indicate you wish to speak via the chat column. Make sure your device is fully charged. Switch your microphone off unless you're invited to otherwise. Do you know what I have a feeling I don't really need to read all this out for the one councillor on the live stream who I fear knows it rather better than I do. So I'm going to take the liberty of bypassing that bit. So can I confirm that the meeting is quarried? If at any time a member leaves the meeting, please would they make that known to us so it can be recorded in the minutes. Item one, apologies. Apologies for absence. Democratic services, are there any apologies for absence today? Yes, share. We've had apologies from councillor Bridget Smith and councillor Henry Bachelour and just received apologies from councillor Dr Aiden van der Waier. Councillor Susan van der Venley is attending the meeting online. Thank you. Item two, declarations of interest. Do any members have interest to declare in relation to any item of business on this agenda? Councillor Mark Howell. Chairman, I believe in the background of the agenda in front of me. There are some references to some South Cams councillors which I may know so I will include that decoration straight away as we order. I suspect that quite a few of us might be able to say that we know some of the South Cams councillors whose names might be mentioned. Councillor Heather Williams. Thank you, Chair. In relation to item six, obviously I may know the councillor that's referred to in these complaints so I'm declaring that as an interest but I'm not aware as to who the individual is. Right. Thank you. Any other interest to be declared in this meeting? As I say, I'm not expecting councillors to declare that they know other councillors who may or may not be mentioned. I think we can take that for granted so I won't be suggesting that we all make declarations on that matter. So the minutes are members happy to approve the minutes of the meeting on 4th of July as a correct record. I wasn't here so right I think that proposed by councillor Mark Howell, seconded by councillor Heather Williams, agreed by affirmation. There we go. Item four, now this item, I would ask Jonathan Tolley to present his report but I'm aware that we're going to be joined online in 10 minutes by the chairman of the Audit and Corporate Governance Committee. I wonder with Jonathan's consent members whether we might actually take this item after. Sorry Chairman, may I just interrupt and give some advice on this one? Myself and my colleague here were both present at the Audit panel when this was discussed. That we abstained. And that is, you're aware of that I'm sure. Okay thank you very much of your channel. I wonder if I could just ask our monitoring officer because some of us may not be aware of the relevance of it. On advice, it is perfectly acceptable for both members who were at the meeting but abstained to speak and participate in this meeting on the same matter. Right, so my suggestion just before that was that we take item five, the review of polling districts and polling places before item four so that the chairman of the Audit and Corporate Governance can join us online for item, thank you. You all agreed, I won't ask for a formal seconder for that. So we come to the review of polling districts and polling places 2023, item five on our agenda. Can I ask our head of democratic services Andy Francis to introduce this item please? Morning members, thank you chair. This report really is to keep members informed of a piece of work that the elections team needs to undertake imminently. All councils are required to undertake a statutory review of polling places and polling districts within 16 months of the 1st of October this year. It's prudent because there's going to be a general election within the next 16 months for us to get on with that very quickly. And so that's why it's come to committee today so hopefully you can have a look through the documents that I've put together which are proposed for us to send out really quickly after the 1st of October. There is a timetable in there which will see the results of our consultation come back to civic affairs later in the year and then go on to council hopefully with recommendations from the committee to adjust our scheme of polling districts and polling places. I suspect he's mostly fairly straightforward for members. I'm really happy to answer any questions. What I would say is the statutory review requires us to look at polling districts and polling places. And I think for members of the public sometimes polling districts and polling places are a fairly abstract sort of concept. It's not really something that they come into contact with all that often. And for the vast majority of our districts, our parishes exist as a single polling district, most of them, especially the smaller ones. There are some larger parishes or ones that split over sort of multiple areas. So the ones that come to my poor born and Tewisham which have parts of their parish within a separate polling district on the edge of the city. Also somewhere like Water Beach, council of their part will know Chittering is a separate polling district but sits within the parish of Water Beach. So some parishes split over multiple polling districts but by and large our parishes exist as a single polling district. So whilst it's about polling districts and polling places, we traditionally haven't required many polling districts beyond the scheme of our parishes, if you like. That's changing really as some of our bigger villages grow into towns. And so there's some work in here about looking at Camborn, which informally we had to do in 2021 because of COVID arrangements where we had a lot of people all voting in the hub and really wasn't a suitable thing to do when COVID was so right. So we put into place some informal arrangements and the plans that we've got in here formalized those informal arrangements. The other thing that people know is polling stations. So legally polling stations don't form part of the review legally. Polling stations are the remit of the returning officer. But actually that's what people understand. It's where they affect, where they go and vote and they're interested in that. We always take the opportunity to ask people for their opinions, their views on polling stations as well as polling districts and polling places. So we're equally going to invite comment on that. My team has done a really big bit of work to visit all of the polling stations in our district, to look at the full accessibility review of those polling stations. It was a big bit of work that. And very important, you'll all know being councillors for the district that some of our more rural villages don't have a huge number of options available. I see Councillor Williams laughing. They don't have a huge number of options available to be used as polling stations. So what we tend to do is look to see, well we don't always know for a start actually unless people tell us there's a better building. And so firstly, if you know there's a better building than what we use, please do tell us. But actually if there's things we can do to make life easier for people we're always interested in learning about that. So that's it really. It's about engaging with our communities, hopefully giving them an opportunity to feed into the way we run our elections. And making them better for the future really. So hopefully members won't be too surprised by anything there but I'm very happy to answer any questions. And hopefully looking for a committee to agree to our stroke and consultation with the stuff that's in this document. Or if you think there's anything else we've missed or we could do better than happy to take that on board as well. Thanks. Thank you. Yes, we will have a couple of questions for you in a minute. I do not propose to have a debate on the merits of this. The question of the end will be does the committee agree to commence the council's review of polling districts and polling places? Just before I ask others to ask questions, one thing that you might like to highlight, as you mentioned, the polling stations is a matter for yourself. There is I think going to be one polling station which is out of the district, is that of any significance? Sorry, Councillor Fehlen, I don't really understand what you mean, sorry. Say it again for me. The question of the polling stations, there is one polling station mentioned that will actually be in Cambridge City. Oh, right. And out of this district? Am I just wondering if you'd like to clarify that it has no constitutional significance? Certainly, no, no, no. It's not, it's maybe a bit unusual. I wouldn't say it's not unusual, but actually if you understand the surrounding, so we're talking about Impington, the polling district of Impington South, which is over King's Hedges Road from Orchard Park. So a little segment which probably builds and looks like it's in the city council area, which actually is in South Cambridgeshire. And the Meadows Community Centre, which is the city council operated building, but has always been in South Cambridgeshire. Actually, that's been demolished and rebuilt, and it's been rebuilt just over the boundary into the city area. So we've talked to counterparts at the city council about their potential use of that building as a polling station. It's not impossible that that happens. And so obviously there's been work there for us to make sure that we can support residents in knowing where they need to go. I'm absolutely confident it's the best building in that patch for us to use. But it does need to be ratified within our scheme to make sure that it's all above board. So there's no problem with doing that. And it won't really affect residents really, I don't think. So it's clearly the right building. Thank you. That is rather what I had hoped you might be able to tell us. Now we have some questions in the chamber. And also I noticed that Councillor van der Ven has had her hand up. I can't say for certain who was first. So if Councillor van der Ven will indulge us, we'll take questions from the chamber first and then come back to her if that's all right. So I think first Councillor Mark Howell. Chairman, I have two very quick questions. First one is the one I always ask on this with regards to people with disabilities. Will there be polling booths for people who are wheelchair users? And also will there be pencils or writing implements in each polling station where somebody who has problems with arthritis to be able to hold the pencil? Thank you, Councillor Howell. So you've seen in my report that I've mentioned some of the requirements of the elections act, which the stuff that made the headlines is all about voter ID of course and there's more stuff coming on that side of things. There's actually a piece of working there for us about the accessibility of elections and about making polling stations as accessible as they can be, which is what prompted the piece of work we did that Jeremy Beth in my team undertook. And as part of that we're trying to look at everything and that includes access path, if it's gravel path, if it's got any sort of steps, lips into the doorway, the doorways are wide enough if there is sufficient support for electors to get into polling stations, do we need to buy ramps? All those things have been covered. The sort of things you're talking about Councillor Howell, I'm confident we already do actually. So we already have every single polling station has one of our polling booths which has a disabled access low level table in and we already spend a huge amount of time training our staff to be really aware of people's needs in polling stations and so doing whatever we can to support electors. You know, there are always probably going to be some polling stations that maybe aren't as accessible as we would like them to be in South Cambridgeshire. You know, probably not in Canbourne, but if you look at Tadlow or somewhere like that, we're going to experience that. But we can always do what we can to try and help people and we'll be doing more in terms of pencil grips, the sort of things you're talking about there in advance of the May elections. So that's definitely something you can expect to see. I just have one more question. Thank you very much indeed for that one, that was great. With regards to the page 22 and the NP for West Cambourne, bring them into the hub. Are you going to try and look at other places in West Cambourne and primarily talking about the school? Thank you. I have no issue with looking at that, Councillor House. So what I would really ask, actually, would be when we put this out to the public, if you could pop a little response to our saying and really suggest that we look at using the school as a polling station for West Cambourne, in due course it's absolutely going to be required. The number of properties occupied in West Cambourne is still relatively low at the moment, but increasing all the time. So very happy to look at that and we'll bring that in and consider whether it's something we can do. Obviously I need the school to be on board with that. Generally speaking, we avoid using schools. They don't generally like us to come to them, to be honest. It causes them problems in terms of safeguarding a bit of upheaval, but it's certainly something we can investigate and bring back. I'm happy to look at it. I can't answer any more than that. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Councillor Hill. Before I call our next question, let me explain. I have since established that actually, Councillor Susan Van de Ven was the first to put her hand up. So my new practice of calling speakers or questioners in reversal is not something I intend to make a precedent for other committees. But perhaps I can now move to Councillor Heather Williams. Thank you, Chair. For Councillor Van de Ven, I'll try and be brief. I think the proposals around Cambourne are sensible. I say this because I think one thing we need to look at is obviously for the first time we can have voter ID. That means you're going to have to have some process of checking and obviously actually having less people in more spaces is probably going to help with the logistics of that. So that's just something when I was reading through voter ID and giving yourself almost a criteria to make sure you can make those checks and what have you. You've referenced Adler, so I can't ignore my own word. I think looking through this, I'm the only one where it's in somebody's house because there isn't anything. What I would say is obviously that is a bit of a risk attached because obviously if a person moves and the new person might not be accommodating. So there are potential options that I will look into and see. I know the church has now had its work completed so that might be potentially an option. I don't know their power though. So that might be a problem. But I think obviously we are trying to avoid people's homes where possible, with the exception of my lovely road of Tadlow. And I think that was it really, chair, just about our campaigning colleagues will not thank us for wanting more polling districts. I appreciate polling stations, sorry. But I think actually for the process of voter ID, the more you can separate the ground, the better. And I think it probably would be sensible for us to see some sort of report informally or something at some point around how the council is going to approach voter ID and how it's publicising it as well. We're lucky. We weren't in the first round. But I think as a committee to ensure that we're making sure it's open to democracy access for people, just as we do with disability. Does that be very good, chair? Thank you. Andy, did you want to comment on that? Certainly. Thank you, Councillor Williams. We are just about to start going sort of more all out on the work we do to publicise voter ID. So the team are thinking about that quite actively at the moment. So we start by visiting some sort of fresh... Sorry, this is peripheral to what we're talking about today, but it's important. We're starting to talk to student body for fresh affairs this week. We're going to be... We're investigating what sorts of large-scale publicity we can do. We're going to be sending posters out to community buildings to try and do as much. Any ideas that members have certainly will come to you to see how you can help us with that. I'm very happy to talk about that. There's a whole raft of other things that are coming. So lucky we've not done voter ID yet, maybe, but what it does is it stacks it up with a load of other changes that are coming through the Elections Act, changes to postal and proxy voting, changes to handling postal and proxy votes, postal votes, sorry, for campaigners. Yeah, lots of things coming. So big challenges next year for our elections. So, judge before I come out, Councillor Williams, will that be the subject of a further report to this committee at some stage? I don't know that it will be a report to the committee, but certainly I think there will be something I need to communicate around members to give them a bit more of a... Yeah, a bit more of a sort of advisory on what they're likely to see next year. In truth, the council doesn't have much control over these changes. They're legislated through the Elections Act. And so I think it probably... There won't be a decision, but there might be some work we need to do to make sure that members are aware of them, certainly will affect people out in your patches. So I'm happy to think about how we can do that the best way and make sure that everybody sort of... I'm sure this committee will appreciate further information on that, not a further report, and it's part of wider information to councillors. Councillor Williams. Thank you, Chair, and thank you for the answer. Just one thing on voter ID, one thing that I think came through striking in the previous local elections that actually it was often women over a certain age, sort of over 80, that didn't have an ID. Mainly because they don't have passports, they don't have the country, but they're of a generation where the man did the driving and the women didn't drive, so they don't have the driver's licenses, etc. So not everyone needs reaching, but that is a particular demographic that is hard to reach, shall we say, and I don't think we should forget about. So if you could look at how you will help with that, that would be fantastic. I will just take the opportunity to let members know that there is a website online, or paper applications can also be made where you can apply for something called a Voter Authority Certificate, which is an electoral ID document which can be used in a polling station to prove your identity. Anyone can apply for one of these online or via paper application if you need, but I strongly recommend that the members, if you come across a resident in this position that you support or give them a point in a mile away, we're happy to help them, but we're absolutely trying to encourage. Hopefully you've already seen the Southcowns magazine. There's been things in the last couple of Southcowns magazines trying to get that out, and you probably expect to see something a bit bigger in the next one about trying to make this difficult message because it's really hard to get it out to all of our communities, something that people are aware of. Okay, I think there may be some follow-up to that outside of this committee in relation to particular, let's call it a polling station. Is this perfect? Councillor Van den. Thank you. You've actually covered what I was going to ask, so thank you to Councillor Williams. Glad that you were able to join us anyway. Right. I propose that we move directly to the question, is this committee prepared to agree to commence the council's review of polling districts and polling places? Can I have a proposal? Councillor Heather Williams, a seconder. Councillor Mark Howell. Can we take that by affirmation? I think we can. Andy, you are clear to go. Right. I'm very glad to see that the Chairman of Audit and Corporate Governments has been able to join us, and hopefully we'll be able to do so. I think he's still... There we are for the next item. We come back to item 4, the proposal for an independent member of the Audit and Corporate Governance Committee. This comes to us from the Audit and Corporate Governance Committee, and the recommendation, of course, is to cancel. Our role on this is largely intermediary, it would be fair to say. Welcome to Jonathan Tully. I present your report on this. Thank you very much for the welcome, and good morning to everyone on the committee. So the objective of today's report is to consider whether we should have an independent member on the Audit and Corporate Governance Committee. So an independent member is not someone who's elected, it's sometimes referred to as a lay person or a lay member. Guidance from our professional bodies really reinforced the benefits associated with having independent members, and they've recommended that councils appoint them. So the history of this is that we've considered whether it would be a benefit for the council to have an independent member over the years on several occasions. At our last Audit and Corporate Governance Committee meeting on the 26th of July, we agreed that it would be sensible to proceed and go through the processes of appointing an independent member. So the correct process, because it will be a constitutional change, is to take this through the Civic Affairs Committee and then take it on to full council. So just to really brief you and talk you through some of the highlights of the report that's been attached, we explain really the background and the merits of having an independent member, but also to help you make an informed discussion decision. We've included on page 10 of your PACs, which is paragraph 13, just some of the discussion points that we had from the previous Audit and Corporate Governance Committee meeting, because that should hopefully help inform your decision. Further to that, there are a couple of appendices, appendix A, starting on page 13 of your PACs. This is very much a similar document that we took to Audit and Corporate Governance Committee, and it really talks through the benefits of appointing independent members. It's all the background and supporting information. So it sets out that we've considered this before and it references to other guidance from professional bodies, set first to Tony Redmond, and also set first position statements. Also in the balance fairness, we set out the process and the potential challenges that could come with this, because it may be a challenge to appoint someone, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. But we feel it's appropriate to include that information. Appendix B is the role description. I hope you find that useful. The characteristics and sort of capabilities that we expect someone to take on that role. So hopefully that's a sufficient introduction on the topic. I'm happy to take comments and questions. Also I'm most of the chair of the committee here as well. Members, I propose to ask the chair of the Audit and Corporate Governance Committee to just comment before we take questions on this. Michael, welcome. Do you want to give us views of your committee or indeed yourself on this matter? Yes, thank you chair. As Mr Tully referenced, we did debate this previously at Audit and Corporate Governance. In some senses, I think, this change is not yet completely required of us, but the writing definitely seems to be on the wall and this is becoming more and more expected of Audit committees as time goes on. There is still, I think it would be fair to say, a degree of scepticism in the committee and indeed in myself that we can find an appropriate person who can really add to the work of the committee. I think there are risks in appointing someone who perhaps does not have sufficient skills and expertise and then, in fact, they become a drain on the time of officers and the committee rather than adding to the work of the committee. This is not without its risks and I think whatever changes we make for now, I think we want to give ourselves the option to go out and search for an independent member and if someone suitably qualified can be found, we would very much like them to join the committee equally if we feel there aren't any suitable candidates, then we may wish to not proceed to appoint and to reconsider what the best way forward is. That being said, I think, as Mr Tully has said, there is a growing expectation that we make provision for this and so I think it's right that we do so. We should also bear in mind, some members of the committee will be aware that at present the audit committee has a number of qualified accountants and auditors on it but that's not necessarily something that we should always rely on for the future and so there is merit in providing a mechanism for ensuring that there's always that expertise there even if individual councillors change or change their responsibilities. I think there are good grounds for proceeding but I wouldn't want to give you the impression that we think that this is necessarily going to be the most fantastic thing that's ever been attempted in the history of the committee if that makes sense but I'm very happy to take any questions or concerns that members of the committee have. Thank you. I suggest that we invite members to address questions to both Mr Tully and to Michael Atkins. I'd like to just start with one myself if Councillor Heather Williams will allow. I think we take your guidance that we should only make an appointment if we can sign somebody who is appropriately qualified that will be a matter for staff and I think we can take that as red. I noticed some discussion in the papers as to whether it would be helpful for the person to be located within the district. For what it's worth, I'm not sure that I see that as a relevant limitation whether indeed somebody who from outside might be less likely to have conflicts of interest as well as widening the base of possible qualified people. I don't know whether you or indeed Mr Tully would like to comment on that. Thank you. That's an interesting suggestion. I think there was a range of views on that. As you say, someone outside the district could perhaps have fewer conflicts of interest and potentially bring some different perspectives. At the same time, it is quite helpful to understand the context of the financial documents and the investment strategies and things that we're looking at. Some knowledge of the local area can also be beneficial. I take your point that perhaps that should be perhaps a desirable characteristic rather than an essential one that determines whether someone is suitable or not. If that makes sense. Fair enough, I was seeking to suggest it might not be a desirable characteristic and I'm happy to take your guidance on that. Mr Tully, do you want to comment on that? Shall we move to questions from other councillors? Happy to move to other questions. I will just echo those comments. I think councillor Heather Williams first. Thank you, Chair. A few things, I was present at the audit meeting. I think it would be fair. I think the chair won't disagree with me when I say that we felt that we were jumping before we were pushed on this rather than a particular desire to do it. I'm getting nons, that means I didn't misunderstand what I was hearing. With that in mind, I think it is really important as the chair of audit has said that we make sure that we don't appoint somebody for the sake of it. I'm not opposed to having two positions but I don't think we should be required to fill both positions in order to function and in order to progress and go forward. We must make sure however the constitution is drafted to allow this that the audit committee can run with no independent members in case we don't have any. To recruit to, even if that involves carrying a vacancy, is probably not a bad thing because at least then we're more likely to be able to keep at least one at any one time. In relation to voting rights I feel very strongly that anybody who is not elected should not have a vote. I think it would be great to hear their advice. They should be able to contribute towards the debate but ultimately vote should be taken by elected members as is democratic. The only exception I would say is if we have on some committees is where you can vote for the chair. However, as we vote for chairs at full council I don't see an event that would require that other than a temporary chair for a meeting. So I think they should have a non-voting capacity to reflect the fact that we're a democratic authority. I think Councillor Howell is going to touch on this about the discussion about the local resident. There was a specific that should be somebody on the electoral role which Councillor Howell I'll leave to touch on but I am supportive of and will speak again on that matter if required for a proposal chair. I think I've made my point if I need to clarify then please do let me know chair but so supportive of this sort of going forward but with the caveats that I've said. Right, before I ask anyone to comment on that I think I'm right in saying that this is a proposal for the appointment of an independent person not as is sometimes recommended up to two independent persons and that person should have a vote. As to the question of whether that person should have a vote or not I would suggest it is best for this committee to leave that to council if it's to be raised as an issue although this committee may wish to advise council. Councillor Williams. Chair, we should be clear full council is the only ones that can vote to amend the constitution but we have to put a recommendation to council. So in the recommendation we will be saying whether it's one or two then it's down to council as you say to vote on it but we would have to come to some sort of consensus in order to have our recommendation although I'm getting nods from our monitoring officer I've not gone completely crazy. I'm just going to take advice from our monitoring officer as to what is actually before us and what might be put to council in due course so the point that I think we may need to clarify today is the nature of the recommendation that we are being invited to make whether we might wish some members might wish to amend that recommendation before we vote on it and put it forward to council and I think that's perhaps a matter on which Mr Tully might be able to advise us before we proceed. Thank you. So to come back a little bit on the voting rights we've explained this on page 10 of the pack the best practice from the professional bodies is that the independent member will have the same voting rights as other members, the rationale being I think to give them the necessary authority to complete their role but it does actually set out two clear exceptions to that one is where the committee has got delegated decision making and in this case the card committee or the corporate governance doesn't have delegated decision making so there's no conflict arising there but it will be worth being aware of that in the future should that change and the second one is in legislation where they cannot approve the statement of the council and in that situation they advise to advise and comment but not vote. I think given the nature of a lot of stuff that we deal with or the corporate governance committee I don't see there being a potential big conflict with that a lot of the nature of the things that we do are sort of advisory so I would just ask the committee to bear that in mind I don't think it is a huge concern Can I just clarify that if we, oh we'll come back to council within a minute but if this committee here were to recommend that the independent person or persons should not have a vote then given the qualifications you've just outlined to us that would be contrary to the I'm going to call it recommendations as to what is best practice That is great, it would be contrary to it but of course it's up for the council to decide as it's not a legislative requirement Now unless council Heather Williams wants to come back on that immediately I think it would be helpful to take the views of the chairman of corporate governance on this or do you want, no, councilor Williams would like to come in first and then we'll come back to Michael Atkins after that, yes Sorry council Atkins, I just want to clarify exactly I understand it says best practice but as I explained earlier as well we are being pushed into this not really voluntarily jumped I do think that there is a democratic argument in only elected people being able to vote this will be something new Now in the future once we've seen how this works we may take a different view and we may decide to give that person a vote but to begin with I think all voting power should stay within elected members Councilor Atkins, I wonder whether you feel that there was a consensus view in the committee on this or whether you have a strong view yourself on it Thank you chair In terms of the committee I don't recall that we had an extended discussion on this point the discussion more centred on the nature of whether or not to accept the role at all My own view would be that I don't see, I mean I take councilor Williams' remarks as to the perhaps like challenge to what is otherwise a purely democratic process At the same time I think Mr Tully is right to say that to deny such a person a vote does slightly bring into question the point of bringing them in at all if they're not able to if on all matters they can only advise My only and indeed it's a committee currently of seven people and the quality is I think three so we're almost always at least sort of five or six at least so I can't see that they would have a kind of particularly significant influence on what happens at the committee My only question back, if I may, sorry through you chair to Mr Tully would be that the committee does have some a point I'm not quite clear on is the committee's role in terms of the investment policy of the council and whether that is considered a delegated decision-making power that the committee has I agree that everything else we do is advisory or approving the statement of accounts and matters such as this but I had a sense that the some of the committee's work around the council's investments did fall into the remit of closer to being decision-making but I would appreciate Mr Tully's consolation one way or the other on that particular point but in general I'm happy with the recommendations as they are and if we want to have a fuller debate and to be fair these are quite philosophical fundamental points so it may be appropriate to have this debate in full council Thank you Mr Tully before you comment I just want to be clear in our understanding Councillor Atkins said he's happy for this to go forward as it is my understanding is this is for an independent person who would have a vote bearing in mind that there is no delegated decision-making for this for the independent person or for the ordinary corporate government's committee so you may like to correct my understanding before you comment on this Thank you No I think your understanding is correct Peter Maddox, the station 151 officer and myself had a look at the committee terms of reference before compiling this report and there are no delegated decisions right so just to be clear if we are to make a recommendation other than the one I've just outlined then we will need to amend the proposal before we put it forward Councillor Howell Thank you Chairman no one of the concerns already has been that we would be going against SIFFA's recommendation we are already going against SIFFA's recommendation by only having one person not two which is what they recommend so by the very nature of the fact we already have done that so let's just make that on the table straight away I don't believe they should have voting rights and the reason being is that the person concerned is not accountable we are accountable, we are accountable to our electorate and we are accountable to the council and therefore that's why I believe that we should have voting rights I think it would be very unfair if that person then had to come into council for whatever reason to justify why they voted just like I would have to if I voted a particular way but they don't have that scrutiny and therefore I don't believe they should have voting rights however I'm saying that I'm what I'm going to ask is and this might delay the whole process slightly but I don't think it will is if Mr Telley could look at the Children and Young People's Committee on the county council where they have people come in who are independent members and can I ask them to have a look at that and how they work and I think they got voting rights so I'm not sure but I'm asking them if they how they actually operate within the county council in the respect of voting for the committee and they've given their advice to the committee that's one of the things Councillor Howell, yes I think that is an important point however I'm not proposing we delay the decision of this committee in order to look at the County Council's Young Persons Committee I think we should look at that for the future and indeed some of the broader questions that arise out of this of the council but not for today I wonder whether other councillers would come into that Michael, councillor Atkins wanted to come back on that, yes Sorry Chair, just to briefly swap hats to be Vice-Chair of Children and Young People at the County Council I would not necessarily recommend that as a particularly good model it's a bit of a mess frankly the co-opted members have a complex set of voting rights on some issues and not on others and it's not we take endless advice on each individual item as to whether they're allowed to vote or not and there's probably good reason for that and the context of it but I think I'd rather have them either definitely not have voting rights or to have the voting rights are set out in the paper presented just if I can shorten that kind of feedback a little Chairman, in that case that says that they should not have voting rights in my mind because it does open up a few kind of worms Yes, I think if I interpret what councillor Atkins said the question was whether they have voting rights on particular issues the proposal before us is that because there is no dedicated decision making the independent person would have the same voting rights as other members of the committee except possibly on specific issues if they were to arise which they don't normally do so I think we need to be careful about taking the children and young persons committee of the county council as any sort of guidance on this that is not the nature of the proposal in front of us we have our own decision to take I think councillor Bear Park wanted to comment or ask a question One question and I suppose a comment as well the question I have is about recruitment process because it seems a bit open-ended in that we are kind of looking for the right person I wondered whether it would be a recruitment process for a period of time and then if no one had been found at the end of that period the decision would be made not to recruit someone Mr Tully Yes, absolutely it is an absolute risk and challenge that we are unsuccessful in our appointments so we have re-rewarding corporate governance committee meetings and we will review the effectiveness of the committee so there's going to be lots of opportunities to review about whether it's right for us we just cannot attract the right candidates but I suppose I would say it's something that we'll probably have to push forward with it's already a legislative requirement at combined authorities so there's probably a high probability that we'll have to do it at some point so it may be that even if we decide that we can't recruit someone successfully after a period of time it may be in the short future after that we then have to start and do it again so hopefully that answers your question But I think it is clear that the recruitment process will be a matter for officers once the decision in principle is taken and we obviously can rely on officers to do that competently so it's going to be a matter for everybody who is capable of fulfilling needs Councillor Harold again Chairman, I'm aware that Councillor Williams is writing something just suddenly and I don't know if it's about the topic I'm going to move on too, it's about a previous topic it's about the previous topic I'll hold until we complete it back Okay, well in that case chairman Do we need a shorter gentleman? I'll plough one Chairman, with regards to the point that Councillor Williams referred to I have a concern that we should have somebody from who is on the electoral register in South Cams Now the reason I'm saying that is that again I think the person should have buy-in they might have a very very capable person from way outside this area but I think we should have a buy-in just like councillors have a buy-in in the sense that we are in our particular district as well so I'm going to be quite I'm not arrogant but I think I'm quite optimistic shall we say about regards to South Cams that we can find somebody in South Cambridge who will more than be able to be represented independent and I've got no problems with being two so if you have two very good candidates I don't see the point as well as getting rid of one to keep the other, we should have two we can have up to two anyway but I do think they should live in South Cams I see Councillor van der Van's real hand is up I don't know whether her virtual hand was intended but Councillor van der Van Sorry maybe I was making facial expressions I don't think I had my hand raised however I do have I've been listening with interest I since I'm here I'll pitch in I agree with the speakers who have argued that the an independent person should not have voting rights they are not accountable and that seems very clear in my mind in terms of where they live personally I don't think that matters they are not accountable it is their expertise and that would be beneficial and I agree with the point that you made chair earlier that there's some in fact there's some neutrality advantage from outside but I don't think that residency is of huge importance whereas I do feel strongly about the voting right thank you Councillor Van der Van Sorry the comment I was also going to add was about the voting rights I do feel a bit uncomfortable with this committee recommending to full council that this person has voting rights I would rather that full council could debate that but it wasn't a recommendation necessarily coming from this committee I don't know whether that's possible but I think that would mean voting to the leader part of our recommendation and inviting council to consider whether to reinstate it now there are three issues I think there are three issues before we can come to a vote on the principle I'm going to assume that we do not need to take a vote on the number of independent persons the recommendation is an independent person at this stage there are then two further issues one is whether such an independent person should be on the electoral role in this district but it's not currently the recommendation I think no that's not currently the recommendation but that could be added and of course the third issue is whether such an independent person should have voting rights subject to the restrictions that were mentioned earlier on now before we come to those matters I just want to check what is the status of this is the some proposal being written which we should which we should hear or council Williams chair I have been trying to reflect what everybody is saying in trying to get a compromise recommendation I think though it would be prudent if we just had five ten minutes to allow officers to see it make any comments because it might need a few tweaks on wordings etc and then if we were to come back at 11 o'clock and then hopefully we may have been able to negotiate a compromise that works for everybody it would be the best solution allow compromise I'm happy to recommend that short intermission to say however that I'm not sure this is a matter on which compromise is possible we have to take a decision as to whether we want this person to have voting rights to take a decision as to whether we're going to require that this be a person on the electoral register of this district but something to that yes it would be very helpful to have something in writing which officers consider before we resume at 11 o'clock first time the veteran chair welcome back to this meeting of the city affairs committee a short interlude there just so that I could take advice from our legal officer but I think we're now ready to proceed we are on item 4 the possible appointment of an independent member of the Audit and Corporate Governance committee and if this is approved by council the chief finance officer after consultation will be authorised to make the necessary arrangements to recruit and select the independent member of the Audit and Corporate Governance committee and if this is approved by council the chief finance officer after consultation will be authorised to select the independent member that is how it stands at the moment I believe we're likely to have a proposed amendment to that following I'm going to ask councillor Williams to just outline the nature of her amendment I will then take advice on that before councillor Williams formally proposes any amendment we will then move direct to the debate amongst all members present both online and in the room and subsequently a vote which I propose to take electronically amongst those members of this committee in the room so councillor Heather Williams so outlining the proposed changes that I would have in the recommendation if I were to move it as we've previously discussed and there's been a majority for the person not having voting rights as has been reflected on about geography but as a broker to give us more flexibility that a person be on the electoral role in Cambridgeshire and there were a few things around recruitment process that feels like something that we don't really need to go into at this stage so just to delegate the process to Audit Corporate Governance committee to decide how that's going to be dealt with so there are three proposals just to sort of try and bring us all to a collaborative conclusion chair. Right so the changes that you are likely to propose would be that the independent member should not have voting rights that is the and any other changes you are likely to propose be on the electoral role in Cambridgeshire and that the recruitment process just let Audit Corporate Governance committee and then give the chair they just delegate that to them to deal with. Okay so the chief financial officer in making this recruitment were that to be agreed by council would take advice from the Audit Corporate Governance committee or from their chair yes they should be involved in the process that seems reasonable I wonder if I could ask Mr Tully just comment on that before we move to a formal proposal. Thank you yes I welcome the debate on this so my advice as an officer would be to follow best practices laid out by the professional bodies it's not a legislative requirement and that does accord some flexibility to make sure that we set out what's best for us and the council but obviously with regard to the best practices are a solid foundation and starting point so that would be my response and I hope you find that useful. Sorry can I ask you to just say what in your view is best practice in relation to the proposals which are about to be put before us is there any best practice as to whether the independent person should have voting rights as to whether the independent person should be recruited from persons on the electoral roll? There is no best practice guidance with regards to electoral roll which offers the flexibility there the voting rights is set out in the set for guidance saying that it's best practice to offer the same rights as other members of the committee but there are clear exclusions such as the statement of the council where they're not allowed to vote or anything where there's a delegated decision. Okay that's clear. So councilor William would you like to put your proposal please? Yes and I'll read it out so it's clear what I am proposing I'll try not to do it like a Dalek but I'll take it slowly that civic affairs recommends to council to appoint an independent member to audit and corporate governance this person will not have voting rights this person will be on the electoral roll in Cambridge here the recruitment process to be delegated to audit corporate governance committee I believe I have a seconder chair would you like me to move my amendment and speak to it now or wait till it's seconded? No please move your amendment seconded and seconded we could then move to the debate Do any members wish to comment on Do you want to speak now or Yes please I did and then council how swept in with his second So yes so I think it's important I give the reasons and I genuinely also believe that it's a compromise on what I've heard heard today as well In relation to voting rights as councillor Van Defend said you know and councillor Mark Howell have said and myself if there is accountability by those people that are elected as we all are if people can vote us in or vote us out that is their prerogative and I think that there's a democratic argument but also the fact that this is very new there's nothing to say this can't change in the future but let's take some baby steps let's have some safeguards in place and I do think I do hear from Mr Talley about best guidance but as has been said we're already not doing the best guidance by having one instead of two it is within our gift and I think at this stage when it's so such a infancy that we should make sure that we don't give too much away at the start and for me it really is a democratic argument about the accountability how is that person if they have a vote held to account by the public that we serve to me it's no different than if we were to give officers a vote and I think that that is that is a principled position but I also think it's important for openness and transparency in relation to the requirement for electoral rolling in Cambridge here I think that is trying to broaden out hearing what some members have said about not wanting to have too small an area to recruit from but equally finds a balance to what we've said about ensuring that that person has local knowledge understands the things that we face here has interest in ensuring that the job is done well because it's part of their locality and I do think in an area where we have complex governance we have a lot going on we're a high growth area there's so much happening that having somebody local in Cambridge here is important and I think having somebody on the electoral roll in this year would help us in enabling that we keep that within the recruitment process without variation proof of address that sort of thing wouldn't necessarily do that because you can have multiple addresses you can have multiple occupancies whereas if somebody votes here and they choose to live here and give that commitment here and having that say from a democratic point of view it's better than I think they would have more more scope of the view and the landscape of South Cairnshire and the challenges we face and we know in finance there it is challenges in local government and we see that as audit members you know I've always said in politics and different parties we all want the same outcome it's just how we get there it's not a lot of the time and I think we see those tensions in audit and I'm sure an independent person it could add value the expertise but we want them to understand where we live that's why one of the requirements for councillors is that we're on the electoral roll in the areas that we serve and I think that it would be symmetry to do that here as well and then in relation to the recruitment process that I've added I think there's going to be lots of little things in that I think it's best to just it's going to be for the audit corporate governance committee let's just delegate it to them to sort out the recruitment process so long as we've got the criteria set by full council I think that can be sort of delegated decision to order in corporate governance I hope that I've explained my reasoning's chair and I hope that members are satisfied that I have tried to strike a compromise here I'm happy to also answer if anybody has any questions of the amendment and to respond if you feel it appropriate chair thank you Thank you councillor Williams councillor Howell do you want to at a speaker's seconder now or do you want to wait until the end of the debate amongst the queue to speak on this I will speak after all the other councillors Are there any other councillors wishing to speak on this? councillor Susan Banderben Thank you Yes in terms of the residency the address of this person I feel we're being overly prescriptive and we want someone who is able to provide good experience and wisdom and that person may come from a bit further field I would imagine we'd probably attract somebody from the region but the east of England is a bit bigger than Cambridger and I wouldn't want to limit it in that way councillor Banderben is that a proposal that this person should be on the electoral roll but for the hell of east of England or for Cambridger or this person does not need to be on the electoral register This person does not need to be on the electoral register Thank you councillor Bairbar Yes as I said previously I think at this stage we should not be looking for somebody who is not assuming that the person that joins the committee has voting rights maybe if we want to revisit this at some point in the future we could do once we understand how the contribution that the independent person is making and whether there's any issues that arise as a result not having any voting rights I'm kind of on the point of whether on the electoral register I'm a little bit open minded but I do think it will be useful to have somebody with some local knowledge and I think maybe if it does turn out that it's very difficult to recruit someone locally then we could revisit this Thank you for that Just a brief comment from me I had been intending to put these two matters to the vote separately but this is now part of one single motion it does seem to me that the case for insisting that this person beyond the electoral register would be stronger if this person were to have a vote as recommended by best practice but that is not the nature of this proposal however I see that the strong case has been made and I just leave it to Councillor Heather Williams to sum up before we move to an electronic vote on this matter I'm happy to do so chair but I think the seconder might have something to say if we're not allowed to speak at the end Chairman, I think everything has already been said quite right I forgot but I invited the seconder to speak at the end of this enormous debate I thought if I jumped very quickly but I'd be in trouble there yes, I take on board what we're saying I'm confident that something came to share will fit the bill criteria that I've put here and I'm sure that we'll be strong candidates very much take on board what Councillor Bear Parker said about we can always review this later on if we're struggling with recruitment and that's another reason for sort of putting the recruitment delegated to Audit and Corporate Governments sort of a little bit further down the line I hope that my recommendation warrants enough support across the chamber right we now come to the vote I hope that all members will be clear on the exact nature of the proposal before us because we haven't got in writing before us but the three elements are firstly well I don't think I need to summarise it I think we've all heard that so I think we can now move to a vote which I do propose we should do electronically so if we could move to an electronic vote for just those members present in the committee so I think we all know how to do it we press the blue one to start off with and then the green one if we agree and the red one if we don't somebody has yet to vote oh it's me so we have we want to and that's the result do you think I could do that I think I'll just go ahead we have agreed to the motion put forward by Councillor Heather Williams we then move to the substantive motion which is as per the recommendation so the committee therefore recommends to council constitution be amended to allow the appointment independent person to the Auditor's Incorporate Government subject to the terms of the motion you just agreed we all agreed we all agreed I don't think we need to take a vote on that one thank you for that we now move on to item six an update on the code of conduct complaints and before we do that we'll just take a moment to sort out the microphones and I'll then ask John Murphy to introduce this item on the update on the code of conduct complaints so we're not going to go offline but there will be a moment where we just sort out the microphones so I'm now going to invite John Murphy to introduce this item thank you chair the monitoring officers usual report on code of conduct complaints quite brief in simple summary chair since our last report one complaint was received regarding a South Cambridgeshire District Council councillor but after consulting with the independent person I determined that the complaint did not merit a formal investigation as there was no clear breach of the code there was another standards complaint regarding the South Cambridgeshire District Council which I have received and I have passed on to the subject of that complaint and I am awaiting the subject's response and finally there has been a long standing ongoing complaint against the South Cambridgeshire District councillor since my last report I received a written report from an external investigator which determined that there have been two breaches of the code I then considered the code of conduct policy that we have and considered whether informal resolution, summary resolution my apologies was appropriate after having consulted with the prescribed individuals and the complainants and the subject I deemed that the matter was appropriate for summary resolution and in consultation with the complainants and the subject that summary resolution is in the process of being played out I am satisfied where we are I anticipate that complaint being closed in a few days time and for the record I would say that the subject of the complaint has fully engaged with me on that process Chair that is the conclusion of my report if anyone has any questions I am happy to assist Thank you and if I could just add that as chair I was one of those formally consulted on that matter and I am entirely supportive of the way the matter has been resolved Any questions from members so we then move on to thank you the date of our next meeting which is 14 December I think the Vice-Chair just wanted to say something about possible matters to be considered by this committee in the future Thank you chair I was wondering whether we might as a committee review the sorts of topics and the frequency of meetings of the Civic Affairs Committee just because we've had a number of previous meetings where we've had very little on the agenda and I think one thing we might want to ask officers to do perhaps is to examine how other councils are handling these sorts of issues Thank you for that I hesitated to propose in accepting myself some members will be aware that since I failed to I was unavailable for the last meeting of the committee this is the first time I've actually attended the Civic Affairs Committee so I hesitated to make a recommendation but I do think it would be appropriate if the chair and vice-chair were to meet with officers to just review the role of this committee with a view to coming back with future recommendations and I would of course welcome comments and contributions from other members both present and not present to this meeting that's not a formal matter for decision at this meeting it wasn't on the agenda but I think it's helpful to have had that raised so Councillor Heather Williams as I said this wasn't on the agenda for this item for this committee but please I'm just going to say I think it's always a useful exercise to look at other authorities just when you do make sure they're sort of like for like I'd appreciate you've never been to find anywhere just bottom but very different requirements so so long as we've got that sort of safeguard that we find some similar councils to ourselves then yes because the meetings can be brief brief meetings are not something that we should be too worried about there are a luxury that we have sometimes so long as it's within our the only thing about the extra item so long as it's within our remit and making sure that obviously advice sort of constitution advice what we can and can't do so as long as we're not exposing ourselves to any risks there then yeah go for it okay thank you that is not a formal decision of this committee but I think I'm sure officers will be happy to discuss that with us and for us to put that on as an item for future agenda so the date of the next meeting will be on Thursday 14th December at 10am and with that I now declare this meeting closed at 11.33am thank you very much thank you chair