 Greetings from the National Archives, flagship building in Washington, D.C. in the William G. McGowan Theater. I'm Nick Cottington, head of public programs and education here at the National Archives, and it's my pleasure to welcome you in this discussion on the story of five men's heroism and sacrifice 80 years after the sinking of the U.S. AT Dorchester. Before we begin, I'd like to highlight a few upcoming programs we have. On Thursday, February 9th, at 11 a.m., we continue our virtual series programs for young learners with Meet Matthew Henson. Henson, the famous African-American explorer, will be portrayed by Keith Hensley and will share stories of his youth, his 20 years of polar exploration, reaching the North Pole and working relationships with Inuit people, as well as Admiral Perry. On Wednesday, February 23rd, at 1 p.m., here in the McGowan Theater, we will present a program on commensurating the 80th anniversary of the Battle of Guadalcanal, one of the most decisive campaigns in the Second World War. Our distinguished panel of military experts moderated by Mr. Jeff Hawks of the U.S. Army Herod Center Foundation will discuss lessons learned from the battle and how they shaped the rest of the war and generations of military strategists. The National Archives is home to countless documents that tell the history of the nation, including millions of records that document military actions of Syrah's veterans from the American Revolutionary War to the present day. Our holdings recount thousands of stories that together weave a tapestry of the nation, but none are more inspiring than those being remembered tonight as we pause and reflect on the sinking of the Dorchester and how five ordinary men willingly gave of their lives so freely so that others may live. Today's program is being broadcast on the National Archives YouTube channel. So if you're watching the broadcast and you wish to question the panel, please put it in the chat and we'll try our best to get it in the question and answer session at the end of the program. As introduction to today's program, we'd like to share with you a short video commemorating the 80th anniversary of the sinking of the USA to Dorchester courtesy of the United States Army. The Dorchester was docked there in New York City. The chaplains joined the throngs of men that were gathering on board the ship. There were four chaplains. One was a Roman Catholic priest named John Washington. Another was a Jewish rabbi named Alexander Good. There was two Protestants, Chaplain Pulling and Chaplain Fox. They were all lieutenants. They had all gone to Chaplain School. And the four of them found that they all had so much in common. They thought in terms of humanity and not just in terms of their own individual community. America in 1943 was deeply divided. Those who did not share the same skin color or worship God in the same way lived largely apart, separated by prejudice, suspicion and hate. Americans often focused more on how they differed with those of other beliefs than on what they shared in common. And you had four chaplains who were of differing religious backgrounds and different faith groups were able to put aside those differences, really a testimony to their understanding that in order to be victorious, we had to work together. A lesson that chaplains would teach every day with every breath. A lesson that would prove vital when the ship and its young soldiers sailed into deadly waters and into the crosshairs of a Nazi wolf pack. The Dorchester ended up pulling in three days later to Newfoundland. The ship offloaded its precious cargo of men not to sightsee but rather for a 10-mile rock march. Here the Dorchester left St. John's and went into the open sea. The Germans got word that the convoy was heading toward Greenland. The Dorchester was now on a collision course with the enemy. Fear would stalk the decks. Its primary antidote to faith and the four chaplains who understood its power. On February 3, 1943, at one o'clock in the morning, we heard this tremendous explosion. We were hit by a torpedo. The torpedo hit into the right side of the ship. Everything went black. All lights disappeared. It goes everybody running like lunatics. It was every man for himself. People frantic. People who didn't forgot their life preservers. People who didn't have clothes on. Some of them were crying. They were just caught completely surprised and they didn't know what to do. The chaplains made their way to the top deck, doing everything that they could to try to give soldiers some direction in order to save as many lives as they possibly could. The four chaplains took off their life preservers and gave it to men, four strange soldiers who didn't have a life preserver on. And they gave it to them so that they could possibly survive this ordeal. These chaplains, they could have been the first one to jump overboard into the life boat. They could have kept their life vests, but they made decisions. They were very courageous men. The ship was about to go down, but the chaplains were about to lift their men to new heights. The four would come together to shine a beacon of hope in the ship's darkest hour. That's when I saw these four men standing arm in arm on the top of the boat. The chaplains locked arms and prayed together. They linked arms, and then they joined in singing hymns, each of them in a different language. One was Latin, one was Hebrew, another was English. And they were humming these songs while the ship went down to see them in that disheveled moment of disaster all around them. And yet this inner calm in these four men, as they ministered to the people around them, was, as one man said, as close to heaven as I ever hoped to be. It is my honor to welcome distinguished panel, our moderator, Dr. Deirdre Dixon, Assistant Professor and Co-Director of the TIKO Energy Center for Leadership at the University of Tampa, Major General Thomas Soljim, current Army Chief of Chaplains, Army Chaplain Bob Nay, and author Stephen Collis, Clinical Professor of Law at the University of Texas at Austin, and author of the book The Immortals, the World War II story of five fearless heroes, the sinking of the Dorchester, and the awe-inspiring rescue. Thank you all for being here tonight. It's certainly our privilege to try to tell a little bit of this story, but we're excited. I would like to introduce myself. I know Nick did a good job, but I'm from the University of Tampa, but in a prior life, I was also a service member in the Army for 22 years. Now a practitioner, a leadership practitioner turned into a scholar. It's really my pleasure to be here, to moderate this panel and be so excited to be here at the National Archives. I mean, I couldn't think of a better place to hold this. I know Nick did a quick introduction of each one, but they have so much to tell. I'm going to give you a little bit more of their background, but quickly. So I'll start with Chaplain, Major General Thomas Soljim. He became the United States Army's 25th Chief of Chaplains in May of 2019. He enlisted in the Army in 1974 before being commissioned as a chaplain in 1988. He served in multiple key assignments and on multiple deployments, supporting a wide array of Army units and soldiers. Let's give him a hand. Chaplain Colonel Robert Nay, Capability-Based Assessment Officer in the Army Chief of Chaplain's Office, began his Army career in 1987 as a chaplain's assistant before becoming a chaplain in 1995. He has advanced educational degrees in Divinity, History, and Strategic Studies, and he's published several works on the Army chaplaincy. Steve Collis is a law professor at the University of Texas, Austin, and one of the nation's leading academics on First Amendment and Religious Liberty Law. He's the author of multiple books, including The Immortals, which tells the story of the sinking of the Dorchester and the sacrifices that were made to save the survivors. So we're going to start out tonight, and I'm going to ask each individual a few questions, and then I'm going to mix it up depending on how the answers come out, and then we're going to actually open it at the very end for questions from the audience. So please feel free as we go along to think about what are you dying to know about this situation and would like to ask. So I'm going to start off actually with Chaplain Nay, and I want, because he's going to give you a little bit of background and historical foundation, and I want you to tell them about the Army chaplaincy. How did it begin and why? July 29, 1775, Congress authorized chaplains within the Continental Army. Before that time, they were part of the militia, part of the state militia, and General Washington really saw that there was a need to care for soldiers, to provide for their religious needs, to provide counsel for the soldiers, and so he requested to Congress authorize chaplains to be a part of the Continental Army. And since that time, we've been growing and evolving to the current and future requirements to the military. Thank you. And Congress was able to get that done in five weeks. Great. Okay. I don't believe you. So let me just tag onto that also and say, well, how about the first, the four chaplains that were trained and prepared to deploy? How were they prepared to deploy to Europe? Sure. The chaplain school actually shut down after World War I during the Depression era, but then with the attack on Pearl Harbor, there's a quick mobilization of our civilian population. And that's something else that's really unique within the Army chaplaincies of that. Chaplains are not drafted. Every chaplain that has served since 1775 to the present has volunteered to serve their nation. That training that took place because of the mobilization and space and such, chaplains would show up at a military installation and have some on-the-job training waiting for a slot to attend the chaplain school. The chaplain school was initially at Fort Benjamin, Harrison. But then the Army asked the universities that had dormitories, classrooms, and such like that if they'd be willing to support the mobilization effort. And so Harvard University was one option and also Duke University. And so the commandant at that time, William Cleary, went to Duke and then also went to Harvard and chose Harvard because one of the unique things about the Army chaplaincy that even in World War I is that we were the first military school to integrate the races. And if they chose Duke University, housing, mass meals and such, that the chaplains would not be able to live together and eat together. So that is why they chose Harvard. And then they would go to classes for 25 days, a majority of their time, as you saw in that video where they marched into Greenland and such like that, that most of their, no more in class, was marching. And number one was practical duties, which was learning about other faith groups. And so that's how they did that. Not every chaplain went to the chaplain school, though, but most did. Okay. Thank you. And I have one more question about the four chaplains that we're talking about tonight. How do you think the nation responded to the sacrifice of the four chaplains? What I think the four chaplains did was that in contrast to the national socialism in Germany, fascism in Italy and in the Showa era of Japan, it really highlighted the extremes of racism and such like that and really made us see ourselves and get better. And I think when that story that came out of the four chaplains, we had two Protestants, a Roman Catholic and a rabbi, serve together, come together, and for the betterment of a mankind really was an inspiration to our country. Okay. Thank you, Chaplain Ney. And I wanted to move to Professor Collis because we know now that there's really more to the story than just the four chaplains. So why was it so important for you to include the heroism of Charles David, Jr.? Well, like many people, when I first learned about the story, someone had showed me a stamp from the 1940s with the four chaplains on it. And that story really resonated with me. And I thought, one day I'm going to bring that to life for a new audience. So I pitched it to my publisher. They were on board. I got probably 75, 80% of the way through the manuscript, and then I learned about Charles David, Jr. He was a black petty officer on board one of the Coast Guard cutters who helped save about half of the men that the chaplains had helped save off the ship. These men were in the water. Many of them had already died from hypothermia. The rest were on their way. And Charles David and these other men aboard this Coast Guard cutter helped save them from the water. Charles though had a secret. He had a cold that had been lingering for some time. He knew he was sick. He was, because of the just explicit racism at the time, he was not allowed to be anything other than a cook, essentially. And a whole lot of people higher-ranked than him essentially refused to go into the water to save people. But he and a number of other men started jumping in. They threw a net that they had found a few days earlier into the water and started pulling men out of the water and out of the life rafts that they were clinging to, those that were still alive. And I learned about this. But every history I found had at most maybe a paragraph, maybe a few about him. And I just thought this, you know, so the long story is that he died a few weeks later from pneumonia, that cold he had because of him diving into the water again and again and again. He eventually died. And I thought he sacrificed himself just the way the chaplains did. We cannot tell the story without telling Charles David's story. So I called my editor up and I said, look, I know the book is supposed to be called the Immortal Chaplains. I know I have a deadline in two weeks. You need to extend the deadline. Give me three more months. And we're going to change the title to The Immortals because he's not a chaplain. Thankfully, it took my editor about 15 seconds to agree with me. And then at that point it was a matter of just doing as much research as I possibly could on Charles David and learning his story and bringing him to life. And the first person I found was his granddaughter who was actually with us tonight. And she was a tremendous resource. She and her other relatives and others were just tremendous resources and helping me bring his story to life. And I'm so glad I was able to do that because I think it enriches it so much. As the family likes to say, the chaplains went down praying together. And they were praying most likely for their men that they would survive. And Charles David was part of the answer to that prayer. Yes, absolutely. Wonderful. Thank you. And what was the most difficult part of your research in writing the book? You know, trying to tell the stories, the full stories of five different people is a huge challenge because you get done with one. And you sketch out their biography, and you're really proud of yourself. And then you realize you've got to go somewhere else and start completely over with a new person and a new family. And they all have backgrounds that are very, very important to them. It was a challenge learning all of those details. But I have to say it's fitting that the National Archives invited me here because the archives played a crucial role in my research. I was able to find so many little details that I otherwise never would have found had it not been for the now declassified documents that the archives has and that I was able to take a look at and really use is extremely helpful. Wow, that's great. Thank you. Now, chaplain Sojin, how does a calling affect your identity and service in the Army Chaplain Corps, particularly as it identified with the four chaplains? So as they serve as exemplars of that calling, it really is the basis of God reaching into your life in such a dynamic way that you realize your divine purpose and that everything that you are, everything that you do, everything that you have, belongs to him. And to take that investiture in that calling and then to give back to others. And these four chaplains exemplified, and I would argue Charles David Jr. exemplified a calling too. And when God calls us in that way, he not only serves as a beacon for us, but it's a fire inside. It's like there's nothing else that I'm here to do but to be this. Your clear sense of identity is wrapped in your calling. And then whom God calls, God equips, God prepares, and God sustains. It gives confidence and courage when all around seems chaotic and hopeless. That's another thing I think that the four chaplains provided. Yes, I would say they were praying, but they were caring, as we say in the Chaplain Corps, they were nurturing living, they were encouraging living. They were caring for the wounded, so there was things they were doing. And they were honoring the fallings because some had already deceased. So they were doing what we are called to do as chaplains. And doing it sacrificially, even willing, so sacred was that calling, that they were committed to work with others who weren't like them. And I think that's the other great part of the story of the four chaplains. They're different backgrounds. They come from different places and had different beliefs. And they, without compromising those beliefs, they cooperated together because they all respected each other's calling and sense of duty. And answering to a higher power than self. Is that what you mean also when you talk about the example of the four chaplains illustrate pluralism in action? Yes, they certainly do. I don't think that the four chaplains were, okay, are you Jewish? No. Are you Catholic? No, it was, you know, and the other part of it, these were the Army Air Corps. A large, the passengers were Army Air Corps. And there were civilians on the vessel as well. But those four chaplains exemplified that pluralism in action, which is really embedded in our founding documents and our constitution, in our Declaration of Independence and the First Amendment. It lays out a foundation as citizens, the free exercise of religion. And then the chaplaincy, we are there to ensure that that free exercise is accomplished by provide, perform. What I can perform, I perform. What I can't perform, I must provide. I can't do that alone. And I think the four chaplains that night exemplified that provide, perform. And I'm certain that in the wee hours of the morning, as they were assisting those soldiers, that there was a specific need in that moment in time, I'm certain that they rallied to support each other to accomplish that mission. Pluralism is what sets America apart. You talked about the distinct differences of those that we were at war with. And in our country, we enjoy the freedom of religion. And it's respect for the dignity and respect for the beliefs and face of others. And that's what the four chaplains and the chaplain corps does from my vantage point. We do it well each and every day. So would you say that's the legacy of the four chaplains? It is. I think there's so many ways that you could describe their legacy. But I think that picture of their distinct differences, but the unifying purpose of their mission. And setting aside those things that would divide in order to accomplish what their primary purpose was. And that was to take care of the souls of those soldiers on that vessel. And I think the decision to become a chaplain and the way into the chaplaincy and the formation of the chaplain in the process, as Chaplain May mentioned, the schools coming together, it's a unique. It is a unprecedented experience because in civil society, you wouldn't maybe even walk across the street from somebody from a different faith background. But the United States Army, that's lived out each and every day. And it serves as a great model of pluralism, which is what I believe our founding fathers envisioned. That brings up another question I had after reading the book is, it seemed like the four chaplains, Chaplain May, I'll address this to you, didn't really understand each other's religion at the time at the beginning. But through their interaction with one another, they really learned the different religious rights and things with one another. What about chaplains today? Do they get training on that with others or? Yes, let me say too, back then, as I mentioned, the number one class was marching. And that's taken civilian clergy to follow orders, which is a pretty, I think we still have problems with that today, don't we? But I also think that the next class that had the amount of hours was practical duties, which by the end of the war they changed that class title from practical duties to professional duties. And that means how do you remain, as Chaplain Soldier was saying, be truthful to who you are representing the faith background that you represent. But then also working in a pluralistic society in a military system, where we respect everyone, but we deny no one. And so a lot of those practical duties, professional duties, included learning about other people's faith groups. There's a certain amount of classroom that you can learn about that. But then there's also that discussion of going back and forth that occurs over a meal. And we still do that to this day. And if I could comment on that, one of the stories I tell in the book is when Chaplain Good and Chaplain Fox hardware together, there was a knock on Chaplain Good's door. He was dorming with another rabbi, and they opened it up. And there was a line of chaplains from other, like Protestant and Catholic chaplains outside the door. And these two rabbis are thinking, what's happening here? And these other chaplains had come because they said, we were told today that we have to be able to minister to anyone in our unit, including someone who's Jewish. And it occurred to us, we have absolutely no idea how to answer a few questions. So will you just guide us and teach us, and Chaplain Good and this other rabbi that were with him actually sat down and trained all these men. They were eager to learn. And I wanted to comment also on your comments about pluralism. This story resonated with me immediately. The second I learned about it, I thought, I really want to tell this story. It even resonated more after I learned about Charles David Jr. And I just thought, I've got to just tell this. But I couldn't ever articulate why. After the book was published, while I was writing it, I've spent, I've lost track of how many hours I spent researching it and trying to crank out pages while sitting in an economy class seat on an airplane, right, working so hard on this book, getting it out there. And then once it was published, doing all these TV interviews, I still struggle to articulate why it resonated with me so well. And I finally figured it out. I think it's because the story of these five men, helping so many people who were so different from themselves, captures a paradox that we all know to be true, but sometimes we lose sight of. And that paradox is something that it's an outcome that's both inevitable, but completely unexpected, right? Something that just seems like a complete illogical outcome, and yet it happens nonetheless. And it's this bit of wisdom that has passed down through multiple different types of religions and philosophies throughout history. And it's this idea that we lose ourselves, or we find ourselves when we lose ourselves in uplifting others. Christ taught that. The Stoic philosopher Seneca taught that. Daoism, Buddhism, Islam, all of these different religions have this same idea that in order to find ourselves, we have to lose ourselves in uplifting others. And I see that in this story. I saw it with Charles David, Jr. There's so many things he could have clung to, so many excuses he had about the world he was in and his own life that would have justified him not jumping into the water. Same with these chaplains. They were on the upper deck and could have easily gotten into one of the first life rafts and just floated away. And yet every single one of them lost themselves in serving others. And I think that's something that our world needs to hear more and more and more of. We live in a time where there's kind of extreme individualism and the message we constantly hear is that to heal ourselves, we need to focus more on the self. I think what this story teaches is the exact opposite and it resonates with us in a way that we need to take and apply in our own lives. Absolutely. Thank you. And I want to go a little bit deeper into that because I think that's really fascinating. Why do you think Charles David, Jr.'s decision to help in the rescue of these individuals when he wasn't really, that wasn't his job. You know, he could have easily stayed on the boat. Why was it one of both fearlessness and forgiveness? You say that in a book and that really resonated with me and I thought, wow, I'm going to ask about that. Well, people need to understand how terrifying this situation was. So one thing, Charles David was not forgotten entirely in all of this. I mean, the Coast Guard recognized him immediately and they gave him the same award that the chaplains received. But here's the interesting thing. It was the highest award you were allowed to give someone who died in a non-combat scenario. But when the award was given to his widow, the man giving the award said that he paused at that point and he said, I want to make very clear, however, that jumping into these freezing waters was just as deadly and dangerous as going into save someone under fire. And it's true it was. I mean, he passed away. He died from this, right? So that was the fearlessness. And a lot of men on that ship who had an obligation to go into the water actually figuratively froze and didn't jump in. Charles and a few others jumped in first and then there were about eight or nine other men who then started helping. The forgiveness part of it, it was army, it was Coast Guard regulations. He couldn't be anything other than a cook, even though he was clearly capable of being so much more. He was obviously a leader. He could have held and refused to forgive them for that. There were a lot of men, especially from the south on the ship who repeatedly referred to him using the N word. He could have held that against them. I'm sure that he probably could have felt that they were putting a man in the water who would have been biased against him because of his race and yet he managed to forgive all of that. Again, this is, I think, some of this example of sacrificing the self. Forgiveness is an act of sacrificing ourselves, right? And showing charity to others and that's what he did there as well. So I think that's why I put that language in the book. Yeah, thank you. And two U2 chaplains, both of you, either of you, I guess. So how do you find these type of chaplains today who are willing to not only have their faith but willing to put their lives on the line? Well, I think it starts early and we have a chaplain candidate program, which is a, since you become a chaplain through direct, we don't have the ROTC, we don't have an academy or anything you come in through a process, a chaplain candidate program is that process. And I think it is making it plain from the very beginning as they're considering the calling. They have endorsers, every chaplain is endorsed by a faith tradition, faith group, the endorsers understand and know the demands of the rigor. So it's a process of discerning your calling. And if you're willing to commit to that kind of calling, to be willing to lay down your lives for others if required. And I think in that process of discerning your call, is this really my calling? There are others that are there to assist and then the recruiters that go about do the recruiting. So I would say it's not a singular event, it's a process that one goes through to discern their calling. And some come and serve for a period of time and they say, you know what, this is not where I belong. And so discerning the call, sometimes chaplains come in, put on the uniform and they realize that this is not what I'm called to do and call to be. So discerning our calling and helping individuals discern their calling is something that those of us who are on active duty or in the garter in the reserve, our responsibility as leaders is to help the young chaplains to discern their call. And then to recruit the right individuals, getting quality chaplains upfront and setting the conditions. So we've changed a lot of our onboarding procedures. We are reforming the chaplain candidate program so that in that chaplain candidate program ideally, one will sort out whether this is your calling or not so that at the end of that three-year period of time, yeah, you're ready. And you can't see yourself doing it. I tell chaplains regularly, if you could see yourself doing something else, you should probably go do it. And this discerning your call and process is a very, very important thing that we do for each other. And then helping people, the diverse faith backgrounds that people come from. And it's really neat. I think one of the beautiful things to observe as a chief chaplains is to see people from like, not only racially or gender, but the religious diverse background and just being wonderful teammates, modeling and emulating that pluralism and their daily actions and their love for each other. I mean, it's one, tolerance is not a very high bar. It's a pretty low bar. I grew up on a ranch and we tolerated a lot of things like things that smelled. But acceptance and love is a high bar. And I see in the chaplain, see that high bar lived out each and every day of chaplains not only accepting and loving each other, but probably more importantly, or as important, the soldiers and families in their care, regardless of what their background is, what may 92.8% of us as human beings is the same. It's the 8% physiologically that's different that often separates us. Love is the arrow that pierces those differences and causes us to do unimaginable things like jumping into the frigid waters of the Atlantic or staying on a vessel that's doomed to perish and to make the decision to perish with those. Our chaplains over our history, we have many, many chaplains who've exemplified courage in the face of adversity. And so just very proud to be living the legacy that has been handed to us by the four chaplains. Did you have anything to add to that? The, I would like to say that the recruiting, giving a recruiting pitch, talking about the four chaplains that died, you know, people tend to think, oh, is that what it's gonna be like? And yeah, it could be, but I think Clark Pauling wrote a really interesting note in 1939 before the war even started. He says, I'm ready for anything because I had the sanctuaries within my own self where I can worship, where I can love my neighbor and prepare myself that you can get, you can die on a transport ship, you could die in a car accident. When the Lord's timing is gonna happen, it's gonna happen wherever you may be. And so I would say that don't believe the things that you see on TV about chaplains, mash would be a great example. Although we probably do have some Father Marquees out there, but that's a part of it too. But there's, you know, like that old meme, you know, this is what my mom thinks I do. This is what, you know, Hollywood says I do. It's really disguised to limit. If you can come up with creative ideas that care for soldiers and families and the commander and you present it, that helps him lead and care for his soldiers, then the door is wide open. And we do it as a team too. So we're focused a lot on chaplains, four chaplains. They did not have what we have today of religious fair specialists, our teammates, right, that come alongside or, and we also have directors of religious education. So as the chaplaincy has grown and evolved and matured over time, we've grown into this organization today that we do things together. I mean, my regimental sergeant major is sitting out here, okay? He would say he exists because of the chaplaincy. I would say I can't get anything accomplished without you. So it's a mutual bond between two individuals that are committed to care for the people in the unit. One's the religious professional, religious leader. And the other one provides a religious support to enable and accomplish that mission. So I'd be remiss of the chief of chaplains to not acknowledge. A lot of emphasis on the chaplains this evening, but it is a team that helps take care of the Army's people. And I'm getting ready to switch that emphasis a little bit. As a leadership researcher from the University of Tampa, I have to get into some of the leadership stuff also. So I wanted to ask you, Mr. Colas, about why do you think the men followed the orders of Charles David when he took charge of the rescue? Because obviously he was the most competent there and when he began. And I just wonder when you were doing your research, how that must have occurred. Well, I don't know, you're the leadership expert. That's why I'm asking you. I mean, there was something instinctive in Charles that I think the other men must have responded to. I mean, one example is, you know, it would have been largely inappropriate for him, given his rank, to barge in on the captain and tell him what needed to happen. But there is a family alive today who broke down in tears in a call I had with them because their grandfather was one of the men who had gone into the water and he had gone out onto a raft and he was trying to see if any other men from the Dorchester were alive on this raft so he could get them onto the ship, to the cutter, to the Coast Guard cutter. Well, the captain didn't know he was out there. His name was Robert Anderson. And so the captain of the cutter started to steer away and Charles David just instinctively sprinted up to where the captain was and told him, we still have a man out there, we've got to go back. And of course the captain listened to him and agreed and they went back and Robert Anderson thought he was dead and he thought his poor wife waiting for him in Boston would never see him again, right? Instead, Charles David didn't only help save the lives of all the men from the Dorchester but he saved Robert Anderson's life as well and now his posterity is here with us. I think those types of just instinctual moments where Charles David knew what the right move was and he wasn't gonna allow fear or prejudice or anything else prevent him from making the right call probably inspired other men to follow him. That's my guess. You're a leadership expert so you tell me but I think that's how I read the situation. That's what it seemed like to me too. Let's think about leadership in the current day chaplains. What do you know, either of you know any stories that you wanted to share of leadership perhaps that you've seen in more modern day? I'm sure you have plenty but if you could just think of what inspires those chaplains today to again step up like someone like the four chaplains or Charles David Jr. did. I think so having the lens of the last couple of decades for example of seeing the actions of chaplains in combat and putting you know they share the hardships of the soldiers so wherever the soldiers are that's where they are. They don't look to find the safe places. They're usually, they're in harm's way. As you look at the history just I know you're asking the modern day question but we were ill prepared as clergy for World War I and we had the highest attrition rate to among you know take infantry, medical and chaplains we were right at the and so we learned some things so we got better but always proximity so survivability is very important but what you find is a lot of our losses is because of proximity. They were close to where they were needed like the four chaplains they put themselves in harm's way and I think it's putting themselves in harm's way with prudence but putting themselves in harm's way and I think that what ends up happening is you're a non-combatant and people look at you and go like you know bullets are flying, things are happening and there you are and you don't even have the means to defend yourself. So there's a rapport that's established with the chaplains and the example that they sent set of leadership. I think they're very present. We talk a lot about incarnational ministry of presence. You go where it's the most difficult and that is an aspect of leadership that's selfless and I've seen this repeatedly. If we had, I could regale stories all evening of the things that I've witnessed and experienced in the lives of chaplains and I think in combat I'll share a story that isn't necessarily the withering under fire kind of story but really kind of gets at how we take care of people and so chaplain Wayne Bridian who passed away a few years ago and there's a prayer room dedicated to him in the Pentagon, he died of a heart attack. Well there's a story about Wayne that I saw on YouTube and what it is is that this group of men were going out on missions and they'd filled out a survey. If for those of you that may not know there were periods of time where you know we would deploy for nine months or a year and then sometimes in the surge we were extended. So this unit was doing a survey to see how everyone was doing and this one respondent, one of the questions was do you have a spiritual network? And so this Jewish soldier answered the survey and said no. So in the midst of all the things the chaos, the throes of combat and everything Wayne went looking for this Jewish soldier because he'd filled out the survey and said he didn't have a spiritual network. Wayne in combat, in a combat zone developed a bridge for him during Jewish High Holy Days to gather with eight other Jewish soldiers. And I think those kinds of things, those little things that we do for one another gains the respect and rapport and this is in the podcast it's the Jewish soldier telling the story. Wow. And I think that's the power that we bring in terms of leadership. I think also what we bring is advice and counsel to leaders. And I think the chaplain's presence being a non-combatant but then the chaplain's presence being the moral, ethical advisor to the leader helps the leader. The leader can turn to the lawyer and the lawyer's gonna tell them what they can and can't do. Okay, you turn to the chaplain you're gonna get a different kind of response. You know, you can legally do this, but should you do it? It's a moral ethical lens to see the situation that you're dealing with and the impact on humans. So I think chaplains provide leadership in so many ways and I think I would call it the quiet professional. They're not always getting the limelight. They do things most often behind the scenes as they care for people, help leaders to be successful and then just their very ministry of presence. Thank you. That's exactly what I was looking for. Some, a personal story before. Could I just add on that to Chaplain's point? One of the most powerful things someone told me when I was interviewing, I have a whole chapter on chaplains where I was just talking about them and the service they provide. But one image that somebody brought up for me is you know, when all of the other soldiers on the battlefield are looking across at the enemy and they're pointing weapons at the enemy, the chaplains are looking sideways with no weapons, looking how they can support people, knowing that the enemy could be firing at them and everything else, but they're not looking in that direction. They're looking at how can they support this direction. That to me was a very powerful image to think about. And then I have another book I published after the Immortals Called Praying with the Enemy. It's the true story of a man who crashed behind enemy lines and then was miraculously saved during the Korean War. To Chaplain's soldier's point about chaplains doing so much as quiet professionals. This man after he escaped enemy territory in North Korea and he was in the hospital afterwards, a chaplain came to him and the chaplain gave him some really profound spiritual advice. He credits that chaplain for all of the spiritual growth and responsible spiritual growth of him and his family going forward four and a half decades because of this good chaplain that came in after this miraculous experience he had who gave him some very just sage and wise advice. So I think that's the kind of thing you're not gonna see on the headlines of the New York Times or the Washington Post or any major newspaper outlets, right? But or on websites, but it's the kind of thing that's changing people's lives every day. Yes, yes. Let's say the leadership, we tend to think rank when we think about leadership. As a chaplain's, although we have rank, we always address a chaplain by chaplain never by their rank. And our leadership is based upon influence. And the received leadership classes back during World War II and it was basically based upon the old Aristotle's Logos Pathos Ethos, which is the Be No Do or the current army talent management of knowledge skills and behavior. But getting back to year point two at the World War I, excuse me, World War II chaplain's manual talked about the efficiency of soldiers. And I'll just read a little part to promote, this is what the chaplain does, to promote character building and contentment in the United States Army by preset and example and thus add greater efficiency to those engaged in the military defense of the country. So we are, some people say we're a combat multiplier, but we do that by looking out for each other. Great. I wanna take it from leadership to a little bit higher level now and ask, you discussed at the beginning of the book that in World War II, the US had always been two countries, ideally and reality. And do you think that's still the case now, would you say? Oh yeah, I mean, I think that's gonna be the case forever. Hopefully. We have incredibly lofty ideals, which I think is the way what we should have. We should have incredibly lofty ideals and we should, without our lives, trying to reach those ideals. And I think that's where the US has been forever and it's where we'll continue to be and I hope we continue to progress to reach those ideals. Okay, excellent. Well, with that, we have about 10 more minutes left. I wanted to open it up to the audience for any questions you may have. There are two microphones, one on each side. So if you're interested in going over and asking a question, please do and then we'll just alternate. Sir, are you asking a question? Awesome. I actually have three if that's okay, but they're quick. One, could someone just go over the scope of this disaster? How many men died? How many were saved? I'm not familiar with that. The second question is, how soon did this story get out and was the story of the heroism, did that come out in the initial reports of it or was that something that came later? And then the last one, the last question is, do you have counterparts in other militaries from other countries? In other words, are there chaplains on the front now in Ukraine? You want me to take the first two and you do the third? Okay. So 600 some men died, roughly 200 were saved. Incidentally, the cutter that Charles W. David Jr. was on saved about 100 of the 200 men who were saved. You asked what was the scope? No, what was the second question? Oh, yeah. So at first it was just seen as an utter disaster and the reports coming back were off. It was the worst troop carrying disaster that the United States suffered in World War II. So it was really bad. Now it was something that sadly at this point in the war, it was not unexpected. I mean, U-boats were having a lot of success up until about that point in the war, sinking our ships. That said, the reports started coming in slowly about the chaplains and then again about Charles David and as I was going through the very valuable documents I found here at the archives, you can see the various communiques coming in where you'll see little footnotes that'll say things, reported that chaplains died heroically, that kind of a thing. And so that kind of stuff was kind of trickling in, which then led to additional investigations after the fact. And then your question about the chaplain. Four days later, another transport ship was sunk, the USS Mallory and five chaplains died on that ship. Now the stories, the heroism, I'm sure they did some pretty amazing things, but what made this unique was you had the different faith groups coming together to serve. So yeah, the third question, the answer is yes. And so we work with, depending on the area or region, we work through state department and through the agency of that combatant commander in that region and their engagement strategy. And part of their engagement strategy is assisting nations with their chaplaincies and your specific question is answered. I'm leaving to go over there to a location and it's the International Military Chief of Chaplains Conference. And that is where we partner with these other nations and recognizing that not everybody has a constitutional republic. So there's a lot of political nuances and other issues that are associated. But we are invested as well as my counterparts in the Navy and the Air Force Chief of Chaplains in assisting these burgeoning chaplainsies that are developing and evolving as a result of things that are happening specifically with the Ukraine. Two questions. One, from a purple perspective, can you enumerate some of the differences and idiosyncrasies among our military services in terms of things that Army does, that Navy doesn't do, or Air Force does? Go Army beat Navy. And secondly, what are you doing to deal with the shortage of chaplains? Yeah, so, yeah, there are different, there culturally we're different. So I would say that there's a baseline religious support, there's a baseline of consistency that, as I stated earlier, what you're able to perform in your faith tradition or else you're obligated to provide. So all the services, they may call it different things, but that same standard is consistent across the services. And so I think what's different about us is our unique and distinct cultures and mission. That's the things that, and then I think scale. I mean, the Army is huge, it's large. The sister services are not, so as far as the recruiting efforts, I'm happy to say that there may be recruiting problems or challenges for us, but we are doing very good in the chaplain corps. We're not having, we're reaching our recruiting goals and in some cases we're turning people away to the Navy in the Air Force, so I'm just, I'm being a little facetious and pejorative there, but no, I think we're in a very healthy place, that people wanna come and serve, and that's very encouraging to see. And I think that what we find is that common thread of calling and identity, that that's what synergizes each and every one of us, and then adapting to your culture. So it takes a different kind of adaptation to be an Army chaplain than it does to be an Air Force chaplain or a Navy chaplain who serves in the Navy or a Navy chaplain who serves in the Marine Corps or in the Coast Guard. It's just the differences that exist between the cultures, but the mission's the same, bringing God to soldiers, sailors, airmen, the Marine and bringing them to God. I have two as well. One is where they were the four chaplains on the Dorchester that night, the only chaplains on the boat that night, and the second is a recruitment question too, did the, when the story of the four chaplains got out, did it affect recruitment of chaplains in the military at that time? I could be wrong, but I do understand, my understanding is they were the only chaplains on board the ship that night, and I, well, you all answered the question about recruitment, but one thing I will say is, once the story did get out, there was a lot of recognition very quickly because people did recognize how unique the plurality that was shown that night was in the world. At the time, and quite frankly, still today, I mean, they had a stamp made in their honor that said interfaith in action almost immediately, very, very, very quickly after just a few short years, which was highly unusual. You didn't get those types of commemorative stamps that fast. So there was a quick reaction, but I don't know if that affected any type of recruiting for the chaplaincy. So if I understand your question correctly, the correlation between the four chaplains and then recruiting effort of that era? Recruitment of chaplains? Yes, in that era? Yeah. Yes, it did not impact. They still met the number of chaplains during the war. There's other times there's another chaplain that where they actually, he died providing a worship service in New Guinea, and it was such a phenomenal story about chaplains being out there in the present somewhere that it was used for a war bond drive. I believe it was the fourth war bond drive telling his story as a dramatization of this chaplain, Keith Monroe, providing a worship service and died Japanese bomber crash right on the worship service site. He died directing his soldiers to safety. Yes, sir. We obviously lost a lot of chaplains in previous wars, many heroically, but it seems like on the Dorchester and then the Mallory that you had mentioned, several at once, which is more impactful. Were there any changes to doctrine or training or policy as a result of losing so many at one time? Yes, within, they lost nine chaplains within a week on the transport ship. What happened was chaplain Arnold, the chief of chaplains at that time, said that any chaplain who was volunteering to go overseas that it needs to go through command channels up to his office for approval. And that's where you had, and you had some Clark polling, skipped going to the chaplain school because he wanted to go see some action. And so again, that is something that historically, there was such a shortage at the beginning of the war for chaplains and doctors that the war department said that you don't need to stay in the United States for six months before you go overseas. Those two types of groups, those two professionals could go overseas immediately. Chaplain Arnold said, it's important for us to train those chaplains before they go overseas to make sure that they are proficient in caring for the soldiers within their formations. Well, thank you for the questions. I would like to tell you, if you wanna hear more about this, Stephen Collis's book, The Immortals Talks All About It, it's a fascinating book, I highly recommend it, and he didn't even pay me to say that. But before, I would like to give each of you one last chance if you wanna mention anything else to the audience, feel free, this is your time. You know, I've been thinking as I was truing various historical sites today with my son and we saw a lot about Abraham Lincoln and one thing that keeps echoing in my mind is here we are commemorating the sinking of the Dorchester and you know, to echo Abraham Lincoln, I think it's all together proper fitting that we should do this, but to echo him again, the question is what do we do as the living with the lesson we learn from them and I really do think it's each of us in our own lives, down to our family relationships, the individuals in our homes, how can we lose ourselves in serving them? I think that's the lesson we can take from this. Thank you. I wanna thank the National Archives for hosting this. This is really a phenomenal and I appreciate you giving us the tour where we were able to see, you know, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and that first freedom is within the First Amendment, you know, people think that it's speech but no, it's religion, the establishment clause but then the free exercise and that is something that for me, you know, this story here that we are here to provide for everyone and deny no one and I think that is, as Chapman Sodom said earlier, the freedom that is very unique within our country, you call it the Puritan mistake, some call it the Puritan experiment but that idea of being a light to the rest of the world and it's that freedom that I think is so important. The Puritan mistake that I refer to in the book is actually doing the opposite of what you're encouraging us to do, right? What the Puritans did was they came for religious freedom for themselves but they didn't wanna give it to anybody else. The beauty of what you're describing is a world where we fight for the freedom for everybody. Right, exactly. Sir, did you have anything? Yes, I think the four chaplains I have in my office a portrait of the four chaplains and so that story continues to live. Their actions go beyond their life and so to your point, you know, to operate from a vantage point of being selfless is huge and it really isn't thinking less of yourself but it's thinking of yourself less and in that moment in time, I think they exemplified what it is to really truly be selfless, to empty oneself is a rich reward of receiving and so I think the gift that we get from the four chaplains is it's a standard. They made the ultimate sacrifice or they made the ultimate decision to stay with the vessel. It serves as a standard for the rest of us to emulate and model as we live out our daily life and practice. Calling has demands and they answered the demands that the call made upon them and I think polling wrote, I think it was to his father. I'm gonna say, hey, sympathy, empathy, no, just pray that I would do my job and I would do it well. I think his words to his father were answered in beyond his imagination and so I think when we devest ourselves of self and do it in service to others, it is what the richest reward and treasure that one can receive and the last thing I would say is, is that this freedom that we enjoy is worth defending and I'm thankful for the men and women in uniform who are willing to take up their calling to ensure that we preserve these freedoms and it was asked a question this evening and for those freedom loving people who are this very hour fighting to preserve their precious freedoms as well. So I wanna thank the National Archives for this invitation and for highlighting Charles David Jr. and the four chaplains. I think they are worthy exemplars of what it is to act courageously and selflessly. May we all go out and be like Charles David Jr. and the four chaplains tonight. Thank you all and thank you to the National Archives. Thank you to each of you.