 It's been about a year since we had the privilege of having Phil down here and unfortunately the first time we had you in the studio we were slammed with podcasting and you came down, at least graced us with your presence, did some great content for our YouTube channel and it'd been meaning to get you back in the studio so we could chop it up man, so welcome. Yeah, you survived our bathroom. When I first came here you guys were renovating that motherfucker. It was bad. It was real bad. It looks good in there now. I'll definitely take shit in there easy. All we had to do is stop paying rent. Imagine how that motivates people. So you guys, now you guys were talking earlier, I just walked in on a conversation before we turned on the mics. You guys were talking about the, I guess the fights that happened. Well before Phil got here, Jess and I were looking at some old clips. He actually went down the last time he was here. He went down and kind of messed with Logan Paul a little bit. Oh really? Yeah, yeah. We were talking about the brothers right now. Yeah, that was fun. That was fun. I'm not gonna lie. I went there not knowing what I was gonna get into, right? So the kid has a fucking mansion, by the way. If you guys haven't seen it, I know all the young kids. Yeah, fucking Logan Paul. Yeah. So I'm like, all right. I didn't know who he was really. Oh, you didn't even know who he was? I mean, I knew to a degree. Like I wasn't like, my daughter's definitely new. They were fucking excited for that for me, I guess. And I was like, I trained multiple world champions, but hey, Logan Paul. That's gonna be funny as a dad, right? Like you're around famous people all the time training these badass athletes who you have all the respect and work forward. You're going down to go see some YouTuber and your little daughters are probably freaking out. Yeah, they were tripping about it. I was like, all right. Like, oh, tell them to follow me on Instagram. I'm like, no. What? What are we doing? That's status right there. Fuck Dustin Poirier. We're talking about Logan Paul. So now I went there and we had a mutual. I just knew the coach that he was working with. Again, he's trained some of my fighters that actually work with now, Sullivan Barrera. Sullivan is actually fighting Kovalev in another month. So getting him ready. But the style that he has now is similar to what a boxing coach of mine, Paulie Gloves, that's what we call him, Paul Gavoni. And he kind of mimics this style where if you're a larger or a taller guy, you would have a longer reach, per se. So you would do more of the long style, which quote, unquote, is what they call it. So he went in there and I seen him throwing, hitting the bag and throwing his hands and he's not bad. Like he's a good athlete. Don't get me wrong. Like 100%. I think he's wrestled in high school and maybe in some college and stuff. And definitely a big guy too as well. He's bigger than his brother. He's bigger than Jake, right? He's taller, right? Yeah. They're both kind of big boys, right? I didn't see Jake. So I don't know. But I know Logan's a big boy for sure, 100%. And he was taking it serious until he told me one thing and cut our workout short and he had to go to the fucking Catalina Wine Mixer. What? I was like, I was like, is that for real? That's a real thing. I was like, yeah, I thought that was in the movie. Rich people shit. I don't know. And so yeah, he cut it short. And then I found out that he took his private bus to his private yacht, which then he had a chopper land on the yacht and take him over to the Catalina Wine Mixer. This shit, I swear to God, has happened. Totally normal. So I'm like, so you cut the workout short for this. I'm like, you know what? Yeah. Okay. This is definitely some Instagram shit right here, YouTube stuff. But to his defense, I would say this, he did take it serious. Like he was taking the training serious. He was taking what I gave him as far as tips for recovery and conditioning. He took it real serious. So I give him that. Now when it comes to the two, watching both of them, Jake and Logan, you know, I think Jake has better skill set. I think Jake puts his punches a lot, puts it together a lot better. I think he creates more torque, more power. It turns his punches over a little bit better. But I don't know. I don't know if they're going to fight or anything. Now you saw the use, you watched the Roy fight and Tyson and he was on that undercard. What did you think of the fights? Um, I mean, I love Tyson, man. I grew up watching Tyson. I mimic Tyson when I was fighting, you know. So, and even Roy too, man, who must have, yeah, I must have forgot like fucking, I had that had the album. I shouldn't have said that. I was jamming that shit too. But, but no, I mean, I thought that I thought Tyson won the fight for sure. I thought he edged it over, you know, obviously bigger gloves in like shorter time. You had the real time in there. I obviously, everybody knows Tyson would have won anyways. You know what I mean? In that, in that perspective, but as far as Jake goes, I mean, fucking basketball player, he was fighting. You know what I mean? Like, why are you going to step in there? And then somebody said it on Twitter is like, you don't play boxing. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, 100%. Well, this is a good question to ask someone like you who has so much respect for the sports of fighting, you're obviously in it very deep. You're a fighter yourself. How does it feel seeing, you know, YouTube stars and, you know, basketball players bring in these crowds and generate this revenue? And you and you know, I'm sure you personally know 100 boxers that have put in time and energy and skill that can't even make, you know, they can't rub two quarters together. Like, what is that like? I work with some of those guys. You know, it's tough to watch a guy and a kid come from like seven years old. And now he's 28 still fighting on undercards and not making shit. You know, same thing with MMA. MMA is even worse, you know, but it also is a good thing because you're bringing more people's eyes to the sport. Unfortunately, it's to that it had to come to that for it to happen. Do I feel that they have the ability or they have the right to call other fighters out? Fuck no. Like, know your place. You know what I mean? In that perspective, like Jake calling out Conor McGregor and Dylan Danis and I'm listening, bro. Like, there's levels, definite levels. Please stop. Please stop. Jake, you can be good, like for sure. And, you know, you just have to understand that take your time and make the steps in the right direction. I mean, it's good to have high goals, but calling them out and disrespecting them makes the sport a mockery. I remember learning that lesson firsthand. I remember when I was doing jujitsu, I was training hard. I was competing in local tournaments in my club. I was good. You know, I was pretty good. I was a purple belt. And then a world-class Pan Am champion. Same. It was a purple belt just like me. Came and visited from Brazil. So here I am. I won like a local tournament. I'm pretty good at my club. Strong guy. And I see another purple belt. Oh, this will be a good match. And it was, it was like I had stepped into a new universe where I didn't know jujitsu anymore. Like I literally went on the mat and I was a very valuable lesson in the difference between world-class and I practice. Well, there's a thing too, because I could totally see how disrespectful that is. But also as a part of me that's like, I kind of want him to learn a lesson in front of everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Is he really going to learn a lesson though, or is it really just a money grab? It's a money grab. That's all I show. I mean, I feel like it's, yeah, what's the win for Conor McGregor? If he goes in there and kicks his ass. No, he has no win. There's no win. Yeah. There's nothing there for him. I mean, he makes maybe five, a couple million dollars, but yeah, maybe more than that, tens of million dollars. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's like, that's definitely a lose-lose. Now, when other fighters are seeing this, like you said, who put the time and effort, I have all the respect in the world for, well, for athletes that do that, but especially fighters, because you're, I mean, when you're in the ring, it's a different sport. You're literally fighting and you, you can get hurt and you put a lot of energy into it and it, you don't always make a lot of money. When they see stuff like that, are they thinking or they talking to you about how they can make them, you know, maybe brand themselves so that they can start to generate money? Because it's obvious that just being good isn't always necessarily enough, right? Never enough. Not at this point. You know, I think that a lot of the fighters now, especially in the UFC, are beginning to see that based off of what Connor has kind of laid out as far as the blueprint goes. And so, yeah, people are starting to call people out a little bit more and it's not, it's not that it hasn't been done before, but you can see the level has gone up a bit. Marketing themselves, doing things on social media, doing things around their area, I think Dustin does a great job of that, but he does it in a positive way, right? He does a lot for charity. Obviously, he has his own foundation. So with that, he kind of puts himself in this light of I'm the good guy, you know, and trust me, he is a good guy, like honestly, but he's being able to market himself in a positive manner that is going to help attract people to buy his fights on top of the fact that he can fight his ass off. So I think that there's ways that you can go about doing it in a positive way without making yourself look like an asshole. Now, as a spectator, are we only getting to see then, you know, above average at best fighters fight because you have people like the con, like I've heard people make the argument that Connor's not even a great fighter. I mean, for me as a spectator, he looks amazing, but I've heard definitely a great fighter. Okay. Okay. So, you know, there's some people that make that case that Dana set him up with all the fights and that he had easy street. UFC. Like honestly, if you don't, anybody who makes it to the UFC is skillful. Yeah. So to the average person, yeah, whoever's saying that is going to get their ass kicked by Connor McGregor if it was on the street. Yeah, for sure. It's that's not it. I mean, you got to think matchups, you know, and if I guess, yes, he had great matchups, if you want to call it that, but he was just fighting up his ranks. And at the end of the day, you can't say that he didn't get two belts out of it in two different weight classes. Now, I'm going to follow up along with what Adam just said, and I'm going to pose the question differently. Could you be a really good fighter, but not be exciting to watch, be kind of boring, not marketable, and then just not get picked up by the UFC? Oh yeah, all the time. There's a lot of guys in regional scenes, or that kind of make it to the UFC, maybe drop one or had a bad showing. And then you never hear from them again, right? Great Jiu Jitsu guys, guys that grind, you know, wrestling style, you know what I mean, and not be able to finish, but just edge out, or at least dominate on the floor, but not be as exciting, like not knock out power. They're not, you know, they don't have that that ability to draw a crowd, you know, things of that nature. And yeah, you probably never hear from them again, become coaches. What's that typical journey look like for a fighter, right? So, you know, you say you're winning in regionals, you get a shot. And doesn't doesn't you see only normally give you like a fight or a five fight type of how does that work? It depends on the person, it depends on how much they're bringing to the table. Okay, so give me like standard like a normal journeyman, not somebody who is like, like, oh my god, everybody's talking about his fights and regionals, like just a good fighter who's winning who gets a shot. Yeah, well, it used to be you would get your shot on the ultimate fighter. And that was really where they started to develop those guys. And you would have to go there and audition and then they would have to see exactly, are you marketable? Are you going to draw the crowd because that would be based off of your interview. So you would have like a three part series of interviews. And then you would also do a tryout as well to see how physically good you are skill wise, you know, knowing the techniques and things of that nature. And then also have the ability to sell yourself. So would you say that the the show because I like ultimate fighter. So one of my favorite shows of what would you say that it's a pretty good collection of some pretty bad ass guys that make it to that. Okay, look at the guys that came out of there. I know, right, there's a lot of them are world champions. For sure. And they're coming back with another series of another season. And I think that this one is going to be really good based off. I think the coaches, I think the coach may be Habib. I'm not sure. I'm not don't let me speak out of turn, but I believe that's what they're trying to do. So we'll see what okay. So let me ask you this and what are the attributes that would make someone a great fighter? And then what are the additional attributes that they would need to become a successful fighter? I'm talking about in terms of money and business and that kind of stuff. So I'm sure that there probably lots of commonalities, but in order to become successful versus just being a good fighter or a great fighter. Yeah, you have to have that star quality. So the goal really first and foremost is you have to have the technical and tactical efficiency. So you have to be able to produce wins and doing in a great fashion. So learning the techniques is first and foremost, right? Learning how to skillfully put it together from a strategy standpoint, and then putting it together from a tactical standpoint, and then also being able to carry that over inside the fight. A lot of guys are really good in the gym. When the fight comes and close that cage door and they crumble, bro, I had such trouble with tournaments because of that, because I would get so, so amped up that I would exhaust myself. But in the club, I was just no problem. Yeah, because you were you were confident. Yes, you were confident. You didn't have that, that level of uncertainty, right? I believe that those types of fighters rise to the occasion, you know, so that anxiety isn't there. And if somebody can overcome the anxiety and still produce what they've done inside the training room, that's how they get it done. And the guys that are really good at that and the girls don't even get me wrong, you got a lot of those two as well, is the ones that can just focus in on the task, not worry about all the other outside things going on. And so for that, that makes them elite. Yeah, yeah. Do you gamble on the fights at all? Me? Yeah. No, don't give me in trouble. Okay. So you're not supposed to gamble on the fights? Is that? Oh, no, no, I mean, I mean, I got it. Okay. I'm pretty good at and I'm nowhere near at the understanding and the level you are, but I'm pretty good at picking UFC fights. I would imagine a coach like you would know styles and fighters so well, you could bet. I'm not, I'm not much of a gambler, though. Like I like, I like to be, I like to have my hands on everything. Like if I'm not, like if I'm not in it, if I don't have, like I'll bet on my guys for sure. Okay. I know, I know I've had a hand in it in some way. Oh, I see. You ever bet against your guys? Oh, fuck. That'd be the worst coaching. You ain't going to give the name up, you're going to put him on the spot like that. You're going to give the name up right now, bro. I've been in places where I was like, fuck man, I think he's going to lose, but I hope he wins. You know what I'm saying? Or she or something like that. Okay, okay. I've been in those like, because it's a hard fight and it's the UFC or it's, it's, it's, you know, it's world champion boxing, you know. And you've spent every day leading up to that with them. So you got to know their mindset going in. It's more of a mindset thing. It's not, it has nothing really to do with the physical capabilities because everybody has those. If you're at that level, like all, man, getting Dustin ready for Connor, like, all I got to make sure he is ready is, is he's mentally prepared and he has the ability to manage his fatigue. That's really what it is. Are there, are there signs then? Okay, so when you're getting, because you've prepared so many fighters. So when you're preparing a fighter, are there signs when you like, you like, man, this he's, he's got to in. Yeah, he's down. Yeah, but then I have times where I'm like, yo, he's fucking ready. And then they shit the bed. I'm like, wow, what the fuck just happened. You know, but it's because of the fact that the fight was too much. Right. It was really good, you know, leading up. Everything was on point. All the numbers were going up. And then all of a sudden you're like, it just unfolded in the wrong way. Wow. It's such a, it makes such a huge impact. Like I said, I experienced that personally where you just, you're going into the competition, crushing it, never getting tired. And because you worked yourself up so much and people are watching and there's so much pressure. Well, I've heard some exhausted sports psychologists will take them down and sort of recreate that where they'll walk in and then they'll imagine themselves like having the crowd there and then performing. And like, do you do that within your athlete? Yeah. So like, I mean, the skills guys would do that more so, but I would put them in the direct bow and eject demands of what's going to happen, like from a, from a time perspective or duration, right? Because that's, that's sports specificity from a physical preparation standpoint. But when I was fighting, Dean Thomas used to put us in the cage that we had a little mini cage. And then he would call all like the parents and the people that joined the gym and they would come out and it'd be the Saturday before the fight. And that Saturday night was like a mock fight. So like you would have multiple, multiple sparring partners. So you'd get it's dog in a hole or shark tank or whatever. And you would be in there for, you know, your three by fives or whatever, or five by threes. And then people would fucking boo the shit out of you. Like call you names, cuss you out. Or he would do shit like put classical music or some shit that we didn't want to hear in sparring where we were like, man, this is totally throwing us off. So like we didn't like the sound. If it was something, it was like if he knew who we were, because we had, when he was training me and myself with like five other of his pros that he brought up. If you guys don't know what Dean Thomas is, he's like a UFC veteran. He does Dana White looking for a fight. He's a black guy in there. He's the only black dude in there. So, but Dean was my coach. Since I was like 19 years old, he was actually on my podcast too. We talked a little bit about like the history of how we met and stuff, but, but he would, he would throw that on and we would have five guys that were pros and we would train together and we would throw, he would throw on this music and we'd be like, man, this fucking guy throwing this gay shit on. So yeah, I mean, so it was like that. And then that kind of got us ready for the negative things that we were going to have to deal with inside the fight. And we always fought like I've, especially with me, I've always fought in other people's territory. Like it was always either in Louisiana or North Carolina or like somewhere in the backwoods of fucking Alabama. It was crazy shit when I was, you know, growing up into the sport. And then like, I used to fight for like $200, man. Like it wasn't any money in this shit whatsoever. I actually spent money going back home. I actually lost money going back home. But those times got me to develop my mindset and then got me to understand how these fighters and what these fighters go through on an in-camp and in the fight itself. When did you, when did you realize that you had as much or more passion for teaching others how to fight than actually fighting yourself? I think it was, I mean, I was doing this while I was fighting. So I was actually coaching while I was fighting too as well. And I was doing that with my teammates because we had, again, that small group. So we had a group of people that we had to rely upon because Dean wasn't always there. Dean would have to go, you know, train Tyron Woodley. He would leave for like six to seven months sometimes and be gone. So we would have to train each other. So I took it upon myself as, as a captain to get everybody together and I would run training practices and things of that nature. So that's how it kind of developed. And then from, you know, once I decided to retire, then it was just an easy transition. Now, what kind of a person, because for the average person looking in and they're hearing most fighters don't make a lot of money, you're going to get hurt. That's part of the, part of the sport. You're fighting. Most people don't want to fight. What kind of a person wants to do that? In other words, what were the characteristics that make, because I know the kind of person that gets into fitness, they tend to be insecure about their body. So they start working out, maybe they become empowered. Now they can fall in love with it and then they want to train other people. What kind of people want to be fighters? What makes somebody want to be, want to do that? There's many different fighters out there. Oh, really? There's different categories of fighters. And Dean talks a lot about this. There's like the fighter, which is a guy that just loves to fight. Yeah, that's like Diaz Brothers. Diaz Brothers. Yes. For sure. Dustin is one of those guys. You know, then you have the martial artists, right? That's like GSP or like an Anderson Silva loves the art. Right. They love to, they love the art of martial art and they test themselves in the fight. Then you have the athlete. That's the guy like Tyburn Woodley who came from a different sport, sporting background or was a football player and then transitioned over. And that was kind of me right there that because I played college football. And I was like, man, I like to fight because I like to challenge myself and what better way to challenge yourself one on one with an individual and be so primal as to step in a cage and fight somebody. Right. So, and then you have, you know, the competitor, which is the guy that just wants to compete whatever it is. It could be anything. It could be chess, checkers, whatever. You know what I'm saying? So, you have those guys and then you have a mix. You have hybrid. I was just going to say, how often do you see somebody who has kind of a blend of all of it? And is that the ultimate fighter for you? I think so, man. I think you can turn it on and turn it off at certain ways and in times of the fight. You know, I think you should be a martial artist in times and I think you should be a true fighter at times. You know, I think you need to know when to turn it up. I think you need to know how to be respectful. You know, and that's really where you'll get the elite, but you know, which one of those are the easiest to coach? I mean, from what you're saying, it sounds like with the mindset and stuff, it might be easiest to coach a fighter because they love fighting so much as a matter, but am I wrong? I mean, no, I think that also has to deal with personality types too as well. Like a dopamine driven individual is going to be like a raw, like he just wants to get after it. And you got a guy that's really acetylcholine dominant. It was really like analytical. You know, that's kind of the, I like a mix of both. I like maybe acetylcholine dopamine dominant type of individual. Somebody who's willing to get after it once they understand what they're doing likes to ask questions because they want to know what's working and why it is working, but also is ready to turn that switch on. And that's where you'll get a fighter that is going to take it to the top. How often are you surprised? How often do you assess somebody and you feel like he's going to be like this and then like they get in there and you're like, Oh, shit. Yeah. When's the last time you watched a fight and you were just, what's the biggest surprise where you're like, I can't believe a person just one. Yeah, yeah, good. I'll tell you one now. It's fucking amazing to me. I was like, I was cornering one of my guys, actually one of my teammates in like 2011. And we were in this, we were in Atlanta, Georgia, was in Atlanta, somewhere in Georgia. And it was a shithole like a hundred percent. But the guys fighting there were all regional scene guys and we were in the back and the warm-up room was like a kitchen. This was like in a bar somewhere, right? So I'm back there and I'm warming up my guy and we're wrapping him up. And then I see this guy in the corner of my eye and he's fucking like hitting, hitting pads and doing shadow and shadow boxing the most, the weirdest fucking way I've ever seen. And it looked like he didn't know what he was doing, like what he was doing, like swatting flies almost, right? So he goes out to the fight and like, I didn't watch the fight, but I heard it. And all you hear was like the bell rang and you heard, everybody starts, I'm like, Oh, shit, the kid got knocked out. He comes back and he's got a fucking medal on his, he's like, yeah. I was like, what the fuck? How did this happen? So, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it looks like the seasoning. I think also, like you could also look really good shadow boxing and hitting pads, but when it comes to fighting an individual, you can't do it. Totally different, right? How important is the ability to be able to take a punch and how the hell do you train that or can you train that? I think some of that you have to be born with for sure to be able to take a punch and, and keep going. Just have a fixed call. Yeah. Big head like Justin. Yeah, some people, it helps. Yeah. But then some people are really prone to getting knocked out, you know, and, and, and then you have certain things that happen throughout your life. Like any type of head trauma is obviously going to deteriorate your ability to take a punch, right? It's going to weaken the chin per se, what people say, you know. So what does that look like in the training process? Cause I know, like back in the day, old school, like they would have a lot more, uh, you know, like fights where it was like full contact in the training sessions versus like backing off of that to, to try and like save them for the fight. Well, if you look at it like, um, like Van der Lee Silva and those guys that had wars in the gym, their careers kind of deteriorated through our eyes, you know, and, um, a guy like Robbie Lawler stopped doing that years ago. Like he was like, I remember, you know, he went to American top team and he stopped sparring for a good amount of time. Like I want to say his last, maybe seven or eight fights, he stopped sparring for his camps. Um, and that's helped him out because again, you don't want to put yourself in that position to like get, you know, accumulate damage while you're trying to get better, you know, in that way. So you save that for the fight. It's the same thing that somebody goes for like a powerlifting meet, right? You don't want to always hit your one rep max leading up into the competition. Like you want to build up to that. And then once the, once the time comes for you to put it all out there, then you do it. Yeah. How do you balance that with also teaching? I'm sure this is probably more important for people who are newer to the fight game, you know, balance that out with also learning how to take a punch and learning how to fight through that. Yeah. Well, that's definitely, that's one of the things that you have to get time in the gym. You have to spar. You have to get hit, but you have to learn how to, you know, roll with it in the sense, you know, roll with the punches they say, but you have to be able to do that because again, once you get hit for real, your mind kind of changes. Like things shift. Like if I, everybody has a plan to get a punch in the face, right? That's a great quote. Like honestly, and you see it in people's eyes, like in sparring and a new kid will come into the gym and he'll get hit for the first time. And he's like, oh, shit. And then you'll find out, you'll find out if he's going to stay or not, because he might not show up the next day. You mentioned the American top team. So what, what makes a badass team? Is it the coaches? Is it the actual athletes that are part of it? Is it a blend of two? Like what, what makes a badass team? I mean, you got a lot of great teams out there for sure. Right, right. You know, I think that a mix of understanding between the coaches, not trying to be the guy, always being able to put in terms of the fighter is the main priority. And then also training partners, like training partners, make or break a gym. You know, you have to be, you have to have cohesiveness. They have to be able to want to hang out with each other outside of the gym. There has to be almost like a family bond in a sense, because you need each other, even though it's an individualized sport, you still need training partners and those training partners you need to rely upon and they need to rely upon you. So with that, I think a large amount comes from having the ability to have iron sharp and iron. I imagine it's got to be challenging because of the amount of egos. I mean, nobody, I mean, or at least I would think very few guys and girls walking into that environment are weak minded or soft or don't think of themselves as a badass and a leader. So how often as coaches, are you guys having to like kind of pull back the reins on these guys and do they fight each other a lot and get pissed off? Like what's that dynamic like? I mean, I've seen a couple of fights in the gym for sure. But the thing about MMA is that it's a little bit, it's more about camaraderie in a sense. Like, yeah, we fight each other, we shake hands afterwards and we leave it in the gym. You never take it outside the gym. And if that does happen, then that guy isn't meant for the team. He's not meant to be. Does that happen? Does that happen where you guys got to say, you know, maybe a guy comes in and he's just, he's fucking up the chemistry. Even though he's maybe a good ass athlete, but he's talking shit outside the gym. And he's just, I think that's, I think that's with every sport you have. Even in the NFL, you get kicked out. So yeah, I think if a guy's bringing down the organization, he's got to go. How do you manage when two people in the same team, then let's say they're both doing really well, they're both in the same weight class. Now it's time for them to fight each other. How has that managed, or does one person usually leave? Both. It's either, it's either managed to where we split the coaching up, or that person will leave and go to another camp. I know that like Kamar Uzman and, I'm drawing a blank, the guy he's fighting, they were teammates for a long time. And Uzman actually left the gym and now he's training in another camp. And obviously, you know, they both are a part of that team, but one person had to step away because it just got too close. And sometimes you just don't have enough coaches, right? So a lot of teams won't, they have too many fighters and not enough coaches. So then you have to go to a different camp in order for you to... Well, you also got to think that he's going to see the strategy in a sense too, right? How much of a going into a fight is the strategy piece? Okay. And then, yeah, take me because, you know, as a spectator and not as familiar with the sport, I just, when I see a fight, I see, you know, five, six, seven coaches back there. What are all their roles? And what does that look like from a strategy standpoint going into a fight? I mean, you might, for MMA, you might have a BJJ coach, a wrestling coach, a striking coach, and then you might have an MMA coach that puts it all together. It's kind of like a Mike Brown, like he puts it all together or it would be like a Dean Thomas, okay, puts it all together. And then those people will come together and organize a strategy based around their particular role, right? And their strong suit. Now, if a fighter is coming from a background of wrestling, well then his main priority, his game plan is going to be centered around wrestling. You know, it just makes sense. Whatever the strong suit is, that's where we have to go with. Now, if the opponent has equal wrestling, well, then we have to kind, we have to kind of balance that out. So now we have to increase his ability to stop a takedown on top of the fact, increasing his ability to strike. Yeah. Have you had some fighters who you think are like really, really good at like changing their game plan? Like, you know, that this is, they're normally a great wrestler, but you could coach them and say, Hey, we're fighting somebody that that pretty much gets canceled out. I want you to really focus here. So from, I would say, even mid, mid fight, the guys that do it really well is John Jones and GSP. Those are the two guys that really know how to take something and turn it into something even better. Wow. That's interesting. Now, if somebody who's listening right now is interested in the sport and is thinking they don't want to compete in the sport, but they want to learn something for self-defense. And, you know, they don't have a lot of time, right? So the average person might do something two, three days a week. I've heard people say, Oh, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the best single thing to learn for self-defense. Other people say boxing. Do you have one that you would pick Muay Thai? I don't know if I like Muay Thai for self-defense. I think Muay Thai is a great art. I think if you are looking to do something in the world of striking and you want to involve kicks, Muay Thai would be better than let's say Taekwondo, in a sense. It's easier. It's faster to get to get the hold of, I guess you would say, but from the average person, from a defensive standpoint, yes, I would say Jiu Jitsu, BJJ would be the most optimal. And that's just because most street fights in on the ground, right? Every fight I've been into, ended up on the ground, whether I like it or not. You can stop them real quick. Yeah. But then again, you also have the factor of, okay, I'm not going to go to prison if I punch this guy and knock him out and maybe cause some irreversible damage, right? Where I can subdue him, put him to sleep a little bit, put his feet up in the air and then we're good. That makes a lot of sense. Wrap him up and send him off. When you watched Tyson fight over the, I think it was over the weekend or whatever, were you surprised at how well he was able to move? Was that shot? Cause he's 54 years old. Is that something shocking or is that? No. No, because it's like riding a bike. That guy's been doing it forever since he was a kid. And that was something that I was like, I mean, it's impressive. Don't get me wrong. Cause who do you know is 55? Right. He couldn't easily just win eight donuts for the next last 20 years. But he's also always been impressive. So why are y'all surprised? Like you didn't see him when he was 22. He was fucking people up. Yeah. How old was Foreman when he came back? He was late 40s. Is it true that the last thing that a boxer loses is his power? Is that a true statement? I believe so. I believe so. I know, I know speed, obviously timing, you know, those things will go, but sheer force into a punch. You know, and that's because I think you get that old man strength back, you know, and then as long as you can, you can put it in the right place, have the precision, the timing back, and that takes time. Obviously that was something that they were working on. That's why I took them a long time to get it together now. Okay, go ahead. Oh, as I said, what makes someone, cause Tyson, I was, I used to love boxing as a kid and I love the old time boxers. I was a big fan of watching them and their styles were so different. Muhammad Ali looks nothing like Mike Tyson in the ring, but was incredibly impressive in his own right. And of course, Tyson was a monster. What made Tyson so good? What made someone like Muhammad Ali so good? Cause they're so different. Their styles look so different. I think it was the belief in themselves, to be honest with you, you know, because at the end of the day, everybody's going to have different styles that work towards their specific makeup and what they honestly, it also has to do with again, personality, right? Look at Tyson, he was a ferocious being like he, he was very dopamine driven. Yeah. How many guys were beat before they even walked in the ring with that guy? Yeah. Yeah. So he had to have that style. Would you imagine him having a style like Muhammad Ali wouldn't make sense? How many eat your children? Then float around you like a butterfly. Yeah. So I think that that is one thing. Also, it's more about like understanding their body and how they move in space and that that comes from training, but also the coach's eye, you know, and having a coach that can look at someone and be like, all right, this is going to be good for him. And then their development through time and how they're working inside the gym increases their confidence. So like if like Conor McGregor, the reason why he was talking that shit because he had wars in the gym and he was beating people up and he put in the work. So now that switch has turned on to like I'm ultra confident because I know I've done everything possible to put myself in this position. And so you can't knock him for being a little bit overconfident because you're going to need that in a world of everybody's a killer. So I have to be a king amongst kings. Now, what are some of the big misconceptions about what makes you a good hard puncher? I'm strong in the gym, therefore I can punch hard. What are some of the misconceptions? People are like, oh yeah, that guy should be able to punch pretty hard. But I got that debate of like, you know, everybody says, oh, you're born with punching power or you're born with knockout power. And don't give me wrong, like genetically your genetic makeup and your limb length and your torque angles and how you put your punches together is going to give you a stronger, more powerful punch. And where you place it is definitely going to give you that. I think like a guy like was like powerful punches named some powerful punches that we have. George Foreman was a hard hitter back then. If you look at his limb length, like look at how long his arms were and how he produced force and put it through his opponent as opposed to just trying to, you know, put it and snap it back, but he punched through his opponent. So it has something to do with that. I don't think, I mean, strength does play an underlining role because force is obviously going to be one part of the equation when you're talking about power output. But when you're talking about, like I say, for instance, and I go back to this because this guy I work with is Dustin, you know, he's not the strongest guy in the gym, but he can let you out. He's got, he can crack. He can, I mean, he's got, I mean, his last five fights, I think he's got five knockouts, you know, so he can crack. And obviously, Conor McGregor is not the most, you know, he's not going to go into a strongman competition anytime soon, but he can crack too. So I think it, I think at the end of the day, it's how you place your punches, how you create torque and also how you understand where to place it from a precision standpoint. Now you've been in this game for a really long time and you've seen the evolution of like science with sports performance and everything from PEDs to supplementation and diet. Tell me a little bit about what you've seen with all those things and then the evolution of the sport with MMA. I think we're getting more educated on, on recovery methods with the PEDs. I mean, obviously you've seen people disintegrate in the sport based off of USADA. Right. Right. USADA came in and a lot of guys went right, right back down. I remember the Pride guys came over to UFC and everybody lost 15 pounds. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's, let's, let's talk about this because there, there is some arguments in this. Like some people think that it's a massive advantage to have PEDs, but we talk about, you know, what's, what's more of an advantage? A guy that is naturally at 205 pounds in a badass fighter or a guy that would normally be 175 juiced up to get to 205 we make the argument from just a fitness professional and understanding the body really well that I would think the natural guy at 205 is actually at an advantage. For sure. Yeah. And I get you on that 100%. But the guys that don't understand that from a physiological level, right, from biochemistry level, they're like, oh no, he's cheating because he had to add something to himself. Right. Right. Whereas that they could be taking creatine and BCAAs and all this other shit, but because it's androgynous and you put it in with a syringe, now it's bad. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So that's the negative side effect. I mean, what, where do you stand? I don't give a shit about everybody else. I have my opinion on what I just said. Do you agree with that or do you disagree? When it comes down to a sport that's one on one, I believe you should have an even playing field. Right. So you should test both of them and see where their test levels lie. Yeah. If one is over the other, well, then yes, you can do some TRT at that time to bring their levels the same. Okay. To maximize equal, equal boundaries. That's an interesting person. You think that that we may see that in the future because there's so much of this, maybe eventually we just say, listen, we're just instead of trying to say he took, you know, all these PDs, this guy didn't or this guy did a better job of hiding it. This guy didn't, why don't we just straight up see where each guy's levels are and make sure they're equal going into a fight. The problem is, is that, that takes too much time and energy, right? Because it's hard to even match up guys now and guys take fights on short notice. Yeah. So how are you going to get your blood work done? And then you got a good point. You know what I mean? There's also so many factors like you could have one person could have more androgen receptors. So his testosterone is lower, but his testosterone is more effective in his body, right? So that could also play a role. But yeah, when it comes to weight classes, I mean, okay, in the real world, you street fights, yeah, if you're bigger, there's an advantage there. But when you're all, when you're all weighing the same, you're 175, you're 175. I would speculate, in my opinion, the PDs like anabolic steroids really only make an advantage, give you an advantage with recovery, allowing you to not hurt yourself. Because otherwise, you're the same weight as the other guy. And if you got to juice yourself up to that weight, well, not to mention, like, you know, when you take anabolic steroids, it may help you build muscle, but you still have things like, you know, tissue and ligaments and bones and the natural guy has got the bone structure to support a 205 person, the guy who was 170 juiced up to 25, his bones didn't grow to be a 205. Plus, let's talk about this for a second, Phil. I'd love your opinion on this. You know, you gain, if you're good at a skill at 175 pounds, and you decide to gain 15 pounds, you've lost some timing and some skill because you're not really used to your body. You're now 185 or 190 pounds. You got to move different. I mean, is that, is that an accurate statement? Yeah, you lose your leverages. Like, again, you'll have to learn how to move in space a little bit differently, especially if you don't have a long, long amount of time to get used to that weight. Because I went up, so I was, I fought at 155, and I walked around at like 175. And then I went up to 170 and walked around at 205. And that training process at 205 was way different than 175. You know what I mean? So like, Different size human. And then on top of that energy expenditure. So now it's like, okay, I need to learn how to move more efficiently with the body that I have now, because I'm putting out a large amount of energy here. You know, so I think that plays a huge role in conditioning to as well. So if I'm going to go ahead and build a guy up to another weight class, I'm going to make sure that I give him the adequate amount of energy output so that when we train, or when he goes into the fight, he has that training process down pat. And so that I can maximize my time there, but also equal out his efficiency of movement so that when he gets into the fight, he knows how to move in space. Okay, okay. So I have a question for it's a little controversial. And I know where I stand and we've made comments on this in the past, but more and more we're seeing transgender athletes compete in with other athletes. So somebody's let's say born a man and then they transition to female and then they get the hormone levels down to what you would see with another female and they say, oh, it's we're on level playing field. We can all compete together. You've seen this a little bit in MMA. There was one fighter that did that and I watched the fights and it was a little bit, it was pretty brutal. Do you think that that's crazy? Is there, would you have an advantage even if you brought your testosterone levels down? Even if you come, you'd transition, but you were born a man went through puberty as a man and you lived as a man for so long. Are there just differences in things like bone structure? And I mean, how do you feel about that? I don't know. I mean, it's difficult to say because if the hormones are matching at that particular time, but also you got to look at like, okay, strength levels and how well they're able to produce that power. And this is just different like female structures different than male structure. And if they can get their levels down to that degree, I don't, I don't see it being a big issue. But at the end of the day, if they're fighting at 125, but used to be like 145 pound man, well now you're looking at like, okay, well, that's kind of an advantage, obviously. So it's the same thing as saying, okay, I'm going to take PEDs and go ahead and fight it. Yeah. Well, I know this from the fitness space and from bodybuilding. I mean, if you're on steroids for 20 years and you decide to go off, there's a certain level of muscle and strength that you're going to keep. So for me, it's like, you know, you got an athlete who was a man for 20 years and then they decide to change and sure now their hormone levels are like a woman's hormone levels. I still think there's an advantage in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's definitely true. That's where I'm getting at with that. Your muscle and your ability to build muscle is still there, you know, to that degree. It's not, it's not obviously as much as it was, but yeah, it is a disadvantage when you're talking about that. Now, if you put that individual up against another killer light, let's say Amanda Nunes and have fun. Good luck. She beats up dudes in the gym now. You don't even matter. That's awesome. As a coach, and when you look around at your peers, what are some of the biggest mistakes you see other coaches making with fighters, whether it be nutritional related, recovery related, setting up for the fight, what are the big mistakes you see? I see a big mistake that I see with physical prep coaches and strength conditioning coaches is trying to fit a training program because that's what they're supposed to be doing. What do you mean explain that? Trying to fit a square peg in a round hole because that's what it says in the NSCA book. Not understanding the athlete, not understanding the situation, the circumstances, and then molding your programming based upon their individual needs is context specific. So with that, I'd rather see more of understanding what the actual individual needs at that particular time and not be married to this one particular system that you learned in a weekend course. That's interesting because that's similar in our field, right? So just training clients, like that's what makes a really good coach is the guy or girl who can see the client and meet them where they're at. Even though we've all read the same certifications and books and know what's the ideal protocol to take someone through depending on where they're at and their journey makes all the difference on how I start them so similar. Yeah, it comes with experience too and then it comes to the experience with working with those individuals that you're working with, right? That population, right? So like with fighters, I've been working with fighters and I've been a fighter for 10 plus years. So like a guy like that has a large amount of time in the game, I may not be going through that particular system of how you should be doing it based on what books say. I'm giving him what he needs at that particular time because we only have that limited amount of time. So the scheduling plays a big role, again, the circumstance of what they have to go through on a daily basis. So that is where I see a big difference where I want to start to see more of an understanding of what the individuals actually needs at that particular time. Now, how do you handle like an extreme weight cut? Like this is something that we need to prepare for. Maybe it's like not a huge amount of time that you have allotted to strategize for that. It's something that just got thrown at you. How do you do that in a way where it still kind of keeps athletes safe? I wouldn't recommend it. I like to see guys sitting around 12 to 15 percent somewhere when they start fight camp. Sometimes they're up to 20 percent from scale weight. Oh, I see. So as of now, I'm done. I don't really do a whole lot of weight cutting. I have somebody else do that shit because I can't deal with that shit anymore. I've done it on pretty much all my life and then working with the fighters. The goal really though is one we want to see from a body composition standpoint. How much muscle mass do they have? How much fat mass do they have? How much water are they holding? And then I can adequately gauge how much we can take off safely and effectively and then put back on once we step off the scale because the rehydration and the refueling process is the most important because that's going to dictate the performance. And they don't allow IVs anymore, right? No, not in the UFC, but any other promotion, yes. So how much weight? So you said 12 percent, 15 percent. Is that that's the beginning of the two-month, three-month, four-month training camp? Or is that two months? Okay. And then what about like the day before? How much leeway do they get? How much weight do you ideally? I like to see them sitting around five pounds out. Okay. So they're going to try and cut five pounds of water out to get on the scale. And that's usually how is that usually done? So there's two processes. You could do either a bath or you could do the sauna. Depends on the person really, right? Depends on what they like, right? Some people like the bath, some people like the sauna, right? The reason why we don't go fully on the sauna, because again, it can drain you a lot more than say a bath. And a bath is a lot faster. It's a lot more efficient. If we're in the hotel room, we can just go to a bath. Sometimes a lot of hotels won't have a sauna. So we have to drive to a gym or something like that. But we put them in a bath and we close the door and we're fine. And we can just do it in the hotel. There's not a whole lot of stress that has to be involved. Obviously stress is going to hold on to as much water as possible, right? So we want to de-stress. We want to work on breathing techniques, diaphragmatic breathing, bring down into a parasympathetic state. And then from there, I can adequately gauge, all right, how much time we need to get two or three pounds off, let's say the day before, and then the morning of we'll do one more bath to get the rest off. Is it common that you see an athlete stressing out so much about their fight that they just hang on to all the water and you can't get it out? It's not even about the fight. It's about the way cut. Oh, they're stressing about the way cut. They stress more about the way cut than the fight. Oh, wow. That's why it's so vital that you come in with the right percentage already. On top of that, they have to be at the right body weight when they start camp, six weeks out, three weeks out, one week out. And now they're like, okay, I'm in a good place because you're in your head all camp. It's funny because this is very similar to what the conversation I'd have when I was coaching competitors for bodybuilding. Once they find out you can help them and you're good at it, everybody wants you to help them and they call you up, you know, hey, I want to do a show in three months. And then I find out where they're at and say, no, I won't take you. You got to come in. All the real work, in my opinion, released for that sport is done leading into it. Sure. You've done a good job then that I know I can, okay, mathematically figure this out and go, okay, I can slowly taper you off and I'll be able to present this for you. I remember, I think it was the ultimate fighter. It was like one of the first few seasons and one of the guys dropped 20 pounds. I think it was, like the day before? Yeah, that happens. What's the most you've ever seen? 30 pounds. Holy shit. Hold on, 30 pounds the day before? The day before. Had it been a big boy though, right? No, no, it was a 35er. What? How was the energy in that fight? It was terrible. Oh, I bet. I mean, he was dying, doing it, and then he had no energy, you know, come fight night because he just drained himself. Oh, yeah. Well, that's okay. So what is the re, I guess, hydration process look like? Let's say you cut, let's say you cut eight pounds, right? So a little bit more than the five that you like. So they came in, they didn't do, maybe they fucked up with their diet a little bit and they're like, okay, I got to drop eight pounds of water. They do the weight, they weigh in, they make weight. Now what does it look like getting them ready to fight because that's exhausting. I've lost a few pounds in the sauna. You feel like shit afterwards. Yeah. So first and foremost, we want to get electrolytes in, hands down, right? So we do a mix of a three liter mix of electrolytes, and then we'll throw in some branched in amino acids, some creatine to as well. And then after their three liters, and they do that every 15 minutes, so it takes them 15 minutes per liter to finish, and then they can have some food. Now that food is obviously going to consist of some type of fast digestive carbohydrate and some protein. We try to leave the fats out of it as much as we can. Now, why are you timing the dehydration? Just for digestion. So if they go too fast, what happens? It gets bloated, they feel like shit. And again, they get lethargic. So we want to slowly sip it and we want to make sure it's cold enough to where it's cooling down the body. And now is it like PDLI or do you have your own mix? It's a mix. Now Eric Pena is a guy that I work with. He used to work with George Lockhart. So he's got all his techniques from George Lockhart. But what we do is it's usually a mix of obviously water mixed with coconut water. And then we do noon tabs, because it has caffeine to as well. We'll do some branched in amino acids in there. And it all depends like the formulation of it, right? The dosages depend on the body weight and what they've lost and what they need to put back on. Usually you want them up around 10 to 12 pounds come fight night from their scale weight. So Phil, when you see these guys get popped, right? And they make the claim that it was from some herbal supplement that they just took. I mean, who do we just have like two fights ago? Remember the guy that his, his gyno was out really, really bad. Oh, right. Adesanya. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And he said he blamed it on marijuana. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's technically you can do that. You heard as possible. You know, you gotta smoke a lot of weed. So okay, you know who Adesanya is, man? Yeah, he probably does smoke a lot of weed. So I mean, is it, I mean, when you see that, when they come out with that, do you just laugh and say, yeah, right? Or do you think that's happening? Man, with the, with the weed? Well, I mean, weed. And I mean, like John Jones or something like that. Well, John, John, we knew John was fucking doing crazy shit. Like everybody knows that. That wasn't my frosted flakes. But John, like John admits it though. He's like, yeah, I was high when I fought Gustafs in there. Like, you know, so I mean, yeah, I do believe like with, with these guys, they need an outlet in a sense. And so they may turn to marijuana. They may turn to cocaine. They may, because they're so like rigid, right? Everything is so regimented and to the tee. And when their fight's done, most of them, especially at the highest level, they're like, fuck this, I need to cut loose. I need to get unwind. And I have all this money. And I'm fucking going to Tahiti and I'm smashing bitches all day long. So is marijuana still a banned substance in, in? No, it's not. No, it's only during fight week, I believe. Oh, so, so if you test positive after the fight for marijuana, you can get disqualified or whatever? I believe so, yeah. If it's, if it's going to enhance something. But the problem is that we all know that weed's not gonna enhance. I remember when Nick Diaz, I think it was Nick Diaz. I remember, I remember what fight he was, he won. And then afterwards he tested for a lot of marijuana. And I'm like, he, they shouldn't disqualify him. He should get another award. Overcame the obstacles. That's crazy. Didn't Mike Tyson say he smoked a bunch of weed before his last fight just now? Probably. I mean, he owns a, he's owned like a company now. Yeah, yeah. That's, I think that was a promotion for his shit. Yeah, a hundred percent. That's what that was. Yeah, I'm still whooping ass and I'm smoking dope every day. So you think it shouldn't be, you think it shouldn't be banned because it's not really a performance and answer. No, no, I don't think so. I think a lot of my guys need it, you know, because they need, they need, again, they're dopamine dominant. They need to chill the fuck out. They need to calm the fuck down. Oh, well, interesting. Go home and relax. Now, so, so I remember when I was training in Jiu-Jitsu, there were a few MMA guys that were in there that were, you know, Mike Swick, good, good friend of mine actually. He used to, he was a trainer actually for me at 24 Fitness at one point. That's how we became friends. And I remember hanging out with him and then he would bring, you know, John Fitch and some other fun. And I remember going out with them and how chill and humble they were. And I remember thinking like, oh, I'm going to, these pro fighters, are you going to like start a fight or no, man? They were like the opposite. Yeah, like you could. I don't want to fight. Exactly. They could, people could bump them, say something to them to like, whatever. Is that common? Is that a common thing? Super common, super common. I was a guy that like, not to say that I'm like fucking Mike Fitch or or John Fitch or any of those guys and Mike Swick. But I tell you this, when I started training, I stopped fighting in the streets a hundred percent. And I was like, man, I do this shit every day. I don't want to get hurt. It's like working. It becomes work. I don't want to get in trouble. Some guy talking shit to you. You're like, I'm too tired to work right now. Well, honestly, and you're so confident in your abilities, bro, for real. That's what Swick told me because I remember talking to Mike about that. And he goes, I know what I can do to somebody if in on the street. And I don't want to do it. And he goes, he goes, if a five year old comes up to you and wants to challenge you to fight, do we get threatened? And I said, no. And he goes, that's how I feel with somebody. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You know that the consequences of what may happen will actually get you more in trouble than them. So you're like, ah, not worth it. So let's say you as a parent, because I have kids. And let's say you have a child that's a bit rebellious. Maybe they're getting in trouble and getting into fights and, you know, not really, you know, doing a good job or whatever. You think fighting is a great outlet for them? Get them in an MMA gym. That'll help them out. 100%. 100%. I think that that should be with young kids, especially young boys, that have a lot to prove. They want to always prove something, especially to the father. My son's six years old and he's with all the fighters all the time. And he's like shadow boxing everywhere we go, you know, and he wrestles and he does all the stuff. But I think that that's going to give him a level of confidence and develop his ability to calm down at times where things can get a little bit hectic. He can deal with those stresses. And if you have a kid, a young boy that's very riled up and he's looking for attention, I believe that. Or let's say, for instance, you're a mother and the father's not involved. And you need to have a father figure. I think a coach or a martial arts instructor, a sensei, whatever you want to call them, is going to be that guide for that individual and help him develop himself as a man appropriately. You know, and carry himself. Now, is that actually pretty, I would think that would be pretty common in the fight world. Is there a lot of fatherless fighters where they're, okay. 100%. Because I think that that was one of the reasons, and we kind of talked about that earlier. But I think a lot of times when people get into fighting is because they're looking for something. They're looking for that individual to impress almost. And it's maybe themselves. It may be the guy that wasn't in their lives. So yeah, I do see that a lot. And you see that a lot with like, even any sport athlete, really, if you think about it, right. I grew up with a lot of guys that are in the NFL. I played with a lot of guys that are in the NFL. None of those guys had had fathers to look up to or know how to be a man. So they turned to football and looked at their coaches for advice and for guidance in that way. Now talk about the humbling effects of fighting, of training in a gym, a boxing gym, or Brazilian jiu-jitsu gym. Because I remember specifically walking in 220 pounds, strong dude, a little bit of judo background, and sparring with this 160-pound skinny, flexible instructor and tapping out, I don't know, five times in five minutes and went outside and threw up and was humbled and signed up and signed up. And it was a great learning lesson. Talk a little bit about the value of going to a fight gym and just getting your ass kicked. But that show, I'll tell you about that, but that shows who you are as a person though because you got a lot of guys that think they're the shit. Big muscle bound guys that go in there and get wrecked by 135-pound jiu-jitsu kid and they never come back. They can't handle it. Yeah, and they talk shit about the gym too. They talk shit about the kid. They're like, bro, you got to like five times put you to sleep. You got to put your legs up, shake you out. But yeah, I think that that definitely will humble you in a way because you're especially in jiu-jitsu, man, because you're in the gi, you're like in a straight jacket. Like, you're just like, oh, shit. No, don't grab this and fucking, you're getting choked out. And they're like, you have no abilities at all. Whatever you think you had, I don't care how strong you are. The leverages and the techniques will get, you'll get nullified quick, you know. But don't get me wrong, if you do have strength and the technique, however, now you're getting. Dangerous. Yeah, now you're going to be leveling up. Yeah, but you get humbled, you know, really quickly. So from a personal development standpoint, what do you learn more from winning in the gym or getting your ass kicked in the gym? Oh, 100% getting your ass kicked in the gym. Because you, well, here's the thing, and I like that question. That's actually a really good question, because you definitely need wins in the gym, because you need to build your confidence. Sure. Right? But you need small wins in the gym. You don't need to dominate in the gym. Does that make sense? Absolutely. So like, I don't want to go in there with the training partner. You don't want to be the best dude in there, right? You're not going to get better. Your confidence may be somewhat high, but then you're looking at yourself like, these guys suck though. So like, and then I step into a UFC cage or whatever. Doesn't matter what it is. And you're like, but those guys weren't as good as my opponent. But now if you go in there and you have a small victory in a sparring match where you put together a combination really well or you slipped that punch, you had great defense, you stopped that takedown, and that guy's a world-class wrestler. Even though he took you down fucking nine times out of 10, but that 10th time, I got that. And then you go into the fight and you're like, that guy's not nowhere near as good as my training partner. Do you recall a story where you seen like a no-name kid come into a gym? That's like American top team where you got a bunch of badasses and you've watched him work his way up relatively quick. Does that ever happen? I believe it does. With top team, it's more of like a collection of people coming in that already divide themselves. But yeah, like I've definitely seen, like Jillian Robertson who's in the UFC now. I've known that girl since she was 16. She came to my gym when I was running boot camps for like extra money, doing like my boot camp. And then she's like, I want to fight because she knew that I was fighting. And she goes, I go, well, go talk to Dean. She signed up and worked her way up. And now she's in the UFC. She's like going to be breaking the top 10. All right. Now, so there was a story. I don't know if this is true, but there was a story of when Hulk Hogan first became a wrestler. He went to a submission wrestling Japanese school and he went in there big dude. Obviously he's a massive guy, cocky, loud, that personality. And they wouldn't let him in. And then he finally got them to let him in. And the instructor knee-locked him and busted up his knee to teach him a lesson. And then the story goes that Hulk Hogan came back, was humbled, and he ended up learning. I've also heard stories of jujitsu schools having their arm breaker. The dude that's in the class that the instructor sees a new guy come in, act like a loudmouth or whatever. And the instructor looks at the arm breaker and says, hey, why don't you go spar with them to teach? Is that true? Does that really happen? Yeah. Oh, shit, for real? You have your enforcers, for sure. Enforcers, there you go. We had enforcers in our gym. I was one at one point, like I'd be one, and then we have one other guy. Those are the guys that really just kind of have pride in the gym. They're like, they're very prideful. Of like the culture they built. The culture they built. You don't want someone coming in and fucking. They're the team guy, like they're that guy. So that's the, and then they're the guy that just don't give a fuck either. Yeah. So yeah, those are, you'll get that. Well, that's funny that Mears like hockey. Hockey has enforcer, and he's the one that just, he protects everybody on the team, cares about the culture, the family of it, and you mess with one of my guys, and he's going to come in and power it. Break your teeth. Yeah, I had that with my, I was not that guy when I trained, but I did have an experience with a coach looked at me and he says, Sal, why don't you go against them? He gave me this look like I'm like, oh, shit, you expect me to like. Fuck him up? Like, oh, no. I don't know if I want to do that. Do you have a story of when you had to actually, when you had to enforce? So yeah, there was one guy that came from a Croma Guy school. Croma Guy? He was trying to say that Croma Guy was better than MMA. And, you know. I'll poke your eyes out. Yeah, and I was like, all right. Our moves are so deadly. Guy wearing a shirt. Is that our moves are so deadly? We don't train full content. Yeah, I know, I know. And he was like, I hate to say it, but he was probably like in his 40s. And like, you could tell like, he was just, he wanted to test himself. He didn't really want to sign up. Like he just wanted to go in there and spar and test his Croma Guy against MMA. So I get, it wasn't, it wasn't Dean wasn't there at the time, but one of the other managers was there. And again, they kind of basically were like, yo, we got this new guy. He's coming in from the Croma Guy school. And he was like, I need you to handle that. I need you to handle that. And so, no doubt. Got it. So, and I was probably, and I was getting ready for a fight. I think I was, I was close like six weeks out. So at that time. You're peeking right now. I'm peeking, right? So, yeah. So he came in the gym and I seen him putting on his gloves. And I was like, and I told him, I was like, you don't need your gloves today. I walked by him. I was like, you need your gloves today. So he's like, he kind of looked at me. He was like, oh, fuck. So I had him put on his MMA gloves. And I had big gloves. I had 16s and he had MMA. So like, he was, and I was like, don't let up. I was like, let's go. Show me your Croma Guy today. So I remember, I guess the bell rang and I hit him with a low calf kick and swept him right off his feet. Kind of like, I smashed his leg. I was kicking through his whole entire body. He fell, hit the ground, got back up. I was like, get up. Right? Because I wasn't going to want to ground. We weren't doing that. It was all stand up. So, and so he got back up. Then I hit him in the body. I think I kicked him in the liver. And he fucking dropped. So I get back up. So he kept getting back up, get back up. Then I just, I just said, fucking, I went down. I hit him to the, I hit him with a jab to the body and overhand, overhand left because I'm Southpaw. And it was over. Now, when that happened, did he get up? And is he like, hey, man, that was really good. I'm, you know, thanks for teaching me. Or was he letting him out? No, I felt bad for the guy afterwards because like, he really didn't know what the fuck was happening. Yeah. And then I was like, yo, I was like, you good, man? And he was like, yeah, man, what the fuck, man? He was like, you know, you really hit me hard. I was like, I was like, no, man, that's how we spar, man. Now, have you ever seen, because I remember, I told this story so many times on the podcast, but it was just a great memory. We had a female instructor and there was a guy, a new guy that came in to sign up. And he didn't want to spar against her because she's like, no, no, I don't want to go against girls and whatever. She said, no, you can go. And he tried to drag her off the mat several times. So finally she put him to sleep and he literally went, he choked out, went to sleep. He was so embarrassed. He walked, you ever seen anything like that where a guy comes in and he spars with one of the girls and he's. It was like a big juice head, like 100%. It was one of the bodybuilders that was like local to the area. Okay. And we had a girl. They don't have fragile egos, by the way. He came in and it was funny. He had like a stringer tank top on too. It was great. Were the nipples up to the sides? My guy, my guy. It was hard and all. Like I was like, oh man. She's finished a road to the chair. And he had like, you know, he was greased up. You know, he had, he looked like he was from the Jersey Shore, like straight out. And this was back at that time when the Jersey, you remember the Jersey Shore? Do I remember? Well, yeah. I was dying for it. I was fucking, but back when that, like when that show came out, everybody was dressing like that. It was like there. So he was, he was, he was all in it. And so actually my girlfriend at the time, she was a jujitsu purple belt and a very highly competitive purple. But it was a different level of purple belt, right? Not just like I just go to the gym once or twice a week. Like this is like, I live this shit. Type purple belt. So yeah, he came and did jujitsu and I was getting, I think I was getting ready for a fight. So I didn't do the class, but I was watching and I was just watching to make sure he wasn't going crazy on my fucking girlfriend at the time. So I'm just sitting there or whatever. And they, you know, we started on our knees, right? And slapped hands or whatever. And then he was kind of like not engaging because he was like, oh man, she's a girl type shit. My girlfriend, well, at the time, my girlfriend jumped to his back, basically wrapped both legs around him, you know, got the seatbelt and he was like a fish out of water at this point. Like trying to catch, it looked like a turtle on a shell. And then he was like, she already had everything locked in. So he couldn't use his strength, but he tried and then she just had good leverage snuck in the rear naked and he started snoring within like three seconds. Now, did he, was he all right afterward? Was he like, hey, that was cool? Or was he like? He was embarrassed as fuck. And then after that, he kind of left and never came back. Yeah. See, but I feel like that's like the, man, if you can get through that, like for me personally, like, you know, I think the value of the real true value of fighting. Yes, it's great to learn self-defense. The fitness is awesome too. But the real value is just you develop a healthy ego. You don't have this huge blow. I remember, you know, even myself doing it, walking around the street and you don't look around like you're some guy that want to dominate anybody. You know the real damage that fights can do. You have a different respect and value for it. And you learn from your mistakes and you get your ass kicked and you come back and you're ready to learn some more, which I mean, is that not a skill that can apply to everything in life? Oh yeah, definitely. I think that transitions over to your work life, to your family life, everything involved. When I don't train, I feel like mad at myself. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like, what the fuck am I doing? What's my purpose? You know, so like when I get back into it, like I just tore my ACL. Well, I didn't just tear my ACL. I just got surgery on it, but I tore it last year. I think I tore it, right? You did, yeah, you did, yep. And it was in jujitsu, but it was me being dumb, trying to get out of a position that obviously I didn't have the best, I was in the best position to get out of that position. And so I ended up, you know, basically tearing my ACL completely. But when I was out of it, I was like, man, fuck, I missed training. So I had to do something. And then I was just kind of just rehabbing the shit out of it and then just coaching and golfing myself and coaching. But again, it's like, if I don't have that, and it's not about, like weightlifting is good. I like to train. I like to get underneath load and lift and power lift and all that. But it's different when it's a martial art. It's different when you're like sparring. It's different when you're doing jujitsu. It's different when you're wrestling. It's a way different, like feeling afterwards. Like you feel accomplished to another degree. You know what I mean? Oh yeah, again, the personal development is just tremendous. Now you said you had a six-year-old son. Is he growing up differently than you in the sense that did you have a hard life? Is his life a lot easier? And if he says to you one day, Dad, I want to go bang in the ring. I want to go punch and get punched and I want to fight. Are you going to be like, that's cool? Or are you going to say to him, no, you have a different life than I did? What's your conversation going to be like if that happens? There will be a really hard life lesson. And then I will have to integrate in my ability to lead him in the proper ways that I didn't have when I was growing up. And I grew up obviously way different than him. From my perspective, I grew up way rougher in a sense. And I'm trying to make sure that my son didn't grow up the way I grew up. Now, with that being said, am I going to let him do what he wants to do? Absolutely. But I'm going to guide him in the right ways to do it the right way, if that makes sense. I want to make sure that he has all the things that he needs necessary so that if he wants to fight or do whatever, but also wants to go to a university and be a lawyer, then he can do both. Or he can do one or the other, depending on what his goals are and depending on where his life takes him. But he always has to be ready at that time. And I want to make sure that I'm giving him guidance in order to do so. Yeah, I got one more question. I just have to get this in here. It's kind of like, you see a lot of mysticism and folklore out there in martial arts. And you see some of these moves like Hollywood shows. So you've seen the crane kick was actually landed and actually worked. Have you seen any other crazy, McDojo type moves that worked? This, there's one from the UFC. The guy, I don't know what fight it was, but it's going, it's making its rounds if you look it up. But it's a spinning back kick. The guy caught like a body shot. The opponent caught the body shot and the kids spun around and head kicked him. Oh, wow. Knocked him out. Oh, sick. It's flat. Oh, wow. I feel after YouTube that. I feel like the better that they, the more it advances and the better all the athletes get, the more you're going to see some crazy, flashy moves. This guy was obviously an athlete for sure. Yeah. Because it used to be early days, they said, there was a second there where everybody's like, head kicks are a waste of time. Don't train head kicks. You're never going to land one. But now everybody, then people got so good that that became an advantage. And then they're like, no, spin kicks don't work. There it is right there. I did see that one. I didn't see this. Oh, bro, let me see this. I remember the first time I saw someone use the cage to do like a Superman punch. That was crazy. That was amazing. Yeah. That was crazy. The first time I did a kick. He didn't have to do the cage and kick. I remember the first time I got wristlocked. That's when I thought wristlocks were a waste of time. I got caught one. And I was like, oh, shit. This actually could work sometimes. Yeah. Watch this catch. Oh, what? Oh, shit. Yeah. They're on a different level. He caught his ankle and he did a spinning like roundhouse kick. I mean, to the guy's defense, he did everything he could. Supposed to. Yeah. The guy just just did some phenomenal shit. Now, I'd love your opinion on this, Phil. People see this kind of stuff or whatever. They're going to think, I'm going to go train. They're all going to practice that. One move, right? One thing that was funny is that, again, my coach, Dean, was like, everybody's going to do that. Because everybody did the pet of shit after that week. Everybody was doing it off the cage. And I was trying to do it off the cage, man. I remember when I first saw that. You get the timing down. Whoa. Yeah. I thought of that. So I got a self-awareness question for you. So there's a lot of people that are aspiring trainers and coaches. And I would think in our profession, like one of the pinnacles are ultimate. I mean, I know as a young kid, I wanted to train pro athletes. You've reached that, right? You're training pro athletes. What is it about you that separates you from your peers that has allowed you to get to that level, you think? I mean, my ability to always want to scale and grow, progress on a daily basis, having the ability to understand the individual more, taking my abilities from a science perspective, and then integrating that into an art. Whereas that a lot of people want to, again, fit that square peg in the round hole. Yeah. Whereas my goal is to actually understand the athlete first and foremost. There's a lot of psychology that goes about it. Yeah. And for me, I'm always trying to evolve the system in order for me to create what we need to from a success standpoint. So, I mean, I think that from generations of coaches that develop their own skill set, you got a lot of great coaches out there that are new and that can make something of themselves. I think that they are too worried about trying to be accepted by their peers and not worrying about the success that they can make their athlete. Mm-hmm. So, again, you'll see it on social media where people will post things and you see like jargony words or like high scientific terms because they're trying to impress their peers, as opposed to trying to actually get what you need out of the athlete. That's ego. That's all ego, man. Are you effectively communicating or are you just telling everybody, wanting people to think you're smart? You know what I find interesting about you? You don't see this a whole lot where usually what makes a good athlete doesn't make them a good coach. Good athletes have incredible instincts and body awareness and they don't always, usually they can't communicate it or coach it very well, but they can do it themselves. Coaches often, obviously the stereotype is they might not have the same instincts in natural body awareness or abilities, but they just have a really good ability to communicate it. You seem to have both, obviously, you're a fighter and you communicate it very well. You're also very intelligent in talking to you from a trainer standpoint. I've talked to a lot of fight coaches. You know more about the human body and biomechanics and training than most coaches I've talked to, most trainers that I've talked to, but the fact that you're a fighter also and a coach, does that help you connect with fighters differently than other coaches? Yeah, that's a big thing too as well is that my ability from, and they respect that. I think that that was one thing that I started doing was a lot of the guys that didn't know me, I got them to realize that, yes, I was a fighter at one point and then from there, the buy-in, per se, quote unquote, was there. For a lot of coaches, I'm not saying that you have to be a fighter or you have to play the sport, but you definitely should know how it feels. Of course. Right, from a biochemistry, from a biomechanics standpoint, but also from a psychological standpoint. And we go back to that, I think it's largely due to the fact that I know what they're thinking at what particular time, at in-camp, in the fight, whatever, because like we talked about, remember, you asked me about, oh, they're worrying about the fight. We're not worried about the fight because we're worrying about the weight cut because that's the first thing we got to accomplish. So those little things like that, when you're talking about strength and conditioning coaches or even skills coaches, some skills coaches have never fought before. You know, you have... That's interesting. Yeah, like you have really big name coaches that never fought before, but they were able to put themselves in the position of their athletes and relay over information based upon what they know and how they perceive what they're feeling. So you have that connection there. And when you can develop that connection, and that's again going back to the art of coaching, is having the ability to reframe what you're trying to relay over so that the athlete can understand exactly what they are doing is appropriate for the sport. And then also you have invested your energy in getting them in a position to be successful in the fight and then outside of the fight in their careers going further. I think also coaches don't go the extra route. A lot of them, not all of them. Don't go the extra route because I'm still talking with fighters and athletes that are well retired that are done. But I still make sure that they're good. I'll make sure that they're doing some type of training or they're progressing in other future endeavors that they want to do, whether it be business, whether it be whatever. Yeah, that's a good leader. And that's what you need to be as a coach, right? I think that that was one thing that kind of separated me too as well is I can lead by example, but also I can inform and teach as appropriate as possible for that particular individual. You mentioned art and you've talked about mindset a lot. And one thing that is, for me, interesting about mixed martial arts versus the other traditional combat sports in America, which I guess the most popular ones would have been boxing and wrestling is that they lacked the art that you would see in martial arts, right? The meditation, the, I don't know what you want to call it, esoteric aspect of martial arts, which in MMA obviously some of that has to come over, right? Because you have practitioners who've done things like karate and other martial arts. How important is the art part of martial arts for mixed martial arts? Or is it all just like a sport, train, turn the technique? It goes back to the individual. It goes back to who they are, right? As a competitor, as a fighter, as a martial artist. If you are a martial artist, that's what you need to do. That's how you need to get better, is to engulf yourself in the art in martial status in that particular way. Because if I try to, again, try to get somebody like, let's say, you guys probably don't know who this guy is, but like Mike Perry, you ever heard of him, right? You get a guy like Mike Perry who's just a fighter, 100%, right? And maybe a little bit of an athlete. And you try to give him this stuff that GSP is on, he's gonna shut down, right? It's not gonna be his style. So you're gonna deter him away from him being the best that he can be, right? Now if you have somebody who is totally engulfed in that whole way of life, then yes, absolutely, because you're gonna better them because that's who they are. Who's the best striker you've ever seen in front of you? In front of me? Yeah. Like, has anybody ever shocked you where you're like, oh man, I heard that this person was good, but this is insane? I mean, there's a lot. We had a lot of Muay Thai guys that come to the gym, and guys from Phuket and Killers. I don't even know their names, but those are the guys. I mean, in the UFC, I mean, right now, even watching them in the fight, I would say Adesanya's tremendous. He's fun to watch. They don't really understand. Because now he's in the limelight, but he's been killing people for years. And even with, again, John Jones, I would say he knows how to place his shots appropriately. Dustin the same thing, the way he, and this isn't sparring, I'm watching him too, the way he can roll punches and the way he places punches effortlessly is really what you're trying to look at. And then from boxing standpoint, man, I got some sleepers, man, that are really, really good. Well, I was just going to ask you, that was a follow-up to that is, you know, you got any names for us, people we should watch, like that, you know, not everybody knows about right now. I got this kid's shirt on, actually, but he is a regional scene guy who fights for the LFA. He's really good. Tyler Ray, he actually is in a lot of my Instagram videos. He kind of looks like Dustin. Everybody thinks he's Dustin, but he's not. He's like way bigger than, like bigger than 170 pounds. This guy is, like, across the board, really fucking good. Wrestler, good striker, super strong, spots, like, from a strength standpoint, like, deadlifts over 400, spots over 400, you know, but he's super fast, he's explosive, and he has a wrestling pedigree, and he's seven and one at the moment. So be on the lookout for him, and he's going to try to go for that next Ultimate Fighter show. What about Jiu-Jitsu? Who's the best Jiu-Jitsu guy you've ever seen? Oh, man. I mean, really? Antonio Carl de Zapato, shoe face? He's actually really fucking good, man. Now, have you sparred with him? Nah. No, motherfucker, it's crazy. He's really, really good, but, like, he's beat Pouchecha, he's won a lot of titles, but he's also in the UFC. So, I mean, from a Jiu-Jitsu standpoint, he's definitely good. Moe Cano is really good. Hanato Moe Cano, who fights in the UFC, underrated Jiu-Jitsu game. I've seen him actually tap out, shoe face, in the gym. Now, are the, okay, so, you know, in Jiu-Jitsu, there's a lot of folklore, right? Like, for whatever reason, I've heard a lot of top-level Jiu-Jitsu guys say that Hicks and Gracie is actually as good as they say it is. More Marcello Garcia, where people say, like, it's just insane. I mean, you believe that? Is it true? Do you think that Hicks and is as good as they say? I mean, at the moment, I mean, there's... I mean, he's old now, but... Yeah, yeah, I mean, back then, yeah, I believe so. I mean, you can't... Listen, there's some that are like fake, but they'll get exposed. Eventually, you'll get exposed because you're getting tested all the time. I don't want to say it because I'm not getting in trouble with the Gracies, man. They'll fucking bomb my car or something. I'm all right. Don't set me up, Charlie. No, those are purists, man. They're purists. Good time, Feldy. Yeah, always good. It's a great time having you on the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I appreciate it, man. You guys got a great setup here. Oh, thank you. I got to tighten up on my podcast. Yeah, no, we love what you do, man. Again, you're a smart guy. You present yourself very well. You communicate very well, and I think we think you're doing a great job, so... I appreciate it, man. Thank you. Thank you. No problem. Follow a program like Map Suspension, which is just suspension trainers. Do it at home. Are you going to lose strength in those core lifts? You will temporarily, but I guarantee when you get back to them, you're going to surpass what you did before because you're going to strengthen imbalances and weaknesses that you had that you couldn't necessarily identify because you're always doing the same stuff all the time.