 In this podcast episode, we're talking with Dvorah Zak, author of Networking for People Who Hate Networking. That's right. She's actually going to tell us why introverts have an advantage when it comes to networking because of one of our natural strengths. Let's do it. All right, now I'm excited to welcome our guest on to the podcast today. Dvorah Zak. Dvorah is the author of Networking for People Who Hate Networking, which is currently in its second edition. Dvorah, welcome to the Engineering Career Coach podcast. Thank you. So, Dvorah, you were recommended to us by several of our listeners. Our listeners, of course, are engineers and technical professionals and they read your book for obvious reasons because a lot of us, you know, aren't that comfortable with networking. And so before we jump into some of the questions around networking, could you just kind of give our listeners a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your background and how you got into this topic? Sure. I'm a leadership development consultant and I have a company in its 23rd year called Only Connect Consulting, focusing on coaching, keynotes, assessments, and many different topics in that arena, such as change and team development and so on. And networking really came to the top for a lot of my readers and my listeners that hit home for many, many people. The subtitle of the book is a field guide for introverts, the overwhelmed and the under connected. And it turns out globally a lot of people would put themselves in those categories and that's why the book is in a couple dozen languages now. So, you're not alone if you hate networking. That's no, that is good to know. Again, like I said, our listeners are really, you know, technical and often as technical professionals, we are highly analytical and can be introverted. So, I guess first question for you is what can, you know, our audience do to kind of build their confidence to help them be comfortable enough to get out there and network? So, the first step is to learn about your own personality style, to learn about where you are in the introvert extroverts spectrum, which the book has an easy assessment beginning. And the next is to understand what the real differences are between introverts and extroverts. There's a lot of misconceptions. And then the third step is to accept who you are, to work with instead of fighting against your natural temperament. And if you do believe you're an introvert or know you're an introvert or suspect you might be an introvert, I just want to get one thing out of the open, introverts do not need to be fixed. So, this is not about getting you to be like someone else. It's about getting you to understand, accept and work with yourself and to be totally authentic in all your networking while honoring what you need to be successful rather than following rules that don't work for most people. That's great. And I think that that assessment in your book could be very helpful to our listeners, because I think one of the kind of misnomers out there is that all engineers are introverts, which I don't think is true. But I think sometimes people just say, I'm an engineer, so I must be an introvert, but they're not really sure. And so any kind of assessment or something that they can look at in course to help them figure out where they are in that spectrum, I think could definitely, definitely be helpful. And one of the things that you say in your book is that the very traits that make you hate networking can be harnessed to forge an approach even more effective than maybe traditional techniques. Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. Sure. So let's start by talking about what the actual traits are that distinguish introversion from extroversion. So some people think that introverts are somehow less secure, less successful, lower energy. None of that is true. There are only three real differences between introverts and extroverts. One is that introverts prefer one-on-one interactions and extroverts prefer group interactions. The next is that introverts energize alone and extroverts energize with others. Oh, there's also, well, those are kind of a corollary to each other. There's also that introverts think to talk and extroverts talk to think. And the last one is that introverts go deep, extroverts go wide. That means introverts prefer deeper interactions, deeper relationships, deeper types of interests, extroverts for more activity, more breadth, more going on, more action, more people. And those are the only main differences. They make a tremendous difference in how we communicate and relate to the world. However, you'll notice what I didn't say. I didn't say that one was type A or type B personality. I didn't say one was going to be more successful as a leader than the other. None of that is linked whatsoever. So to get to your question right before I explain the differences was, how can you leverage those traits? So if you're an introvert and you think, well, Devorage has said that I think to talk instead of talking to think, doesn't that mean that I'm going to be a bad networker? Because networking requires interactions with people that seem spontaneous. So that is not the solution. The idea is not to say, oh, I think to talk, therefore, I don't need to network, or I can't network or I'm terrible at it. It's to say, okay, this is a fact. I happen to have a temperament that means that I think before I talk. So that means instead of wishing that wasn't true or pretending that's not true, I accepted that's true. And therefore before I go to an event, whether it's online or in person, I prepare questions that are interesting to ask. I prepare responses to the typical questions I might be expecting others to ask me. I prepare so that when I'm ready to go, I've practiced, I've paced myself, and I have great conversations with people. That's interesting, because basically what I'm hearing from all that is, it's not that one is necessarily better than the other at networking. It's that the introverts and extroverts just take different approaches to it. That's right. And a lot of extroverts that I work with say to me, oh, Davor, I'm a the Fantastic Networker. I can talk to anyone about anything. And to that, I generally reply. And it's a lovely trait to be able to talk to anyone about anything. It does not necessarily translate. However, it's not equated with being a great networker. Networking has to do with how meaningful, mutually beneficial, lasting relationships, building those one person at a time. It doesn't mean that quantity is the most important thing. Really quality is the most important. That's great, because actually, the word networking does get thrown out there quite a bit in the world today, and especially in the corporate world. And I think a good place always to start when you're talking about something is, what does it actually mean? So having you break it down like that in terms of meaningful relationships, I think is a great way to do it. Because again, just because you're an introvert may just mean, like Davor has said, you're going to have a couple deeper conversations, and you're going to have a couple deeper relationships, as opposed to someone who may just go wider and say, Hey, I talked to 20 people at the networking event. That was a great event for me. Well, was it, you know, or was it not? So exactly, I say, connect, don't collect. So meeting people connect with them is way more important than collecting business cards or collecting names, and so on. Also, when you're thinking about what is networking, a lot of people think it's very negative connotation. So they're almost, it's almost a point of pride that I might say I hate networking. Well, that's because I might think that it's about shameless self promotion or about manipulating people. But in fact, real networking is none of those things. Real networking is about connecting deeply and lasting relationships, not dazzling people in one night and then never being in touch with them again. Yeah. And that's what I often tell engineers when we're talking about networking or building relationships. A lot of engineers that I know will go to like their monthly association meeting, they'll get a bunch of business cards, they'll kind of put them on their desk, and they'll kind of think to themselves like, All right, I did my networking for the month. Then what I try to tell them is, listen, getting those cards, making those initial contacts, I think is like maybe like your first step in terms of like a networking process. And then you need to kind of build relationships beyond that. And again, like to Dvorah's point, if you go to a networking event, you talk to 20 people, the odds of you building 20 deep relationships are very low. So you're going to have to probably pick a few people and focus your energy on those couple of people. Would you agree with that? Yes, I do. And even the thought of, and I'm an introvert. So even the thought for me too to thinking I need to go to event and connect with or meet 20 new people is overwhelming. It makes me not want to go. And it seems totally daunting and just out of sync with who I really am. So what I always suggest is you research in advance before you go to an event or a program and narrow it down to two or three people that you really want to connect with based on what you've learned. Reach out in advance, see if you can meet for a cup of coffee instead of with a huge group to a steak dinner that's going to last three hours that most insurers would dread. So to your point, just because you've collected, let's say 20 cards, that doesn't mean really anything about your ability to network. What really tells us about your networking expertise is what happens in the next day or two after the event. Yeah, that's great. And one of the things that you also mentioned in your book, Dvorah, is that you don't succeed kind of by denying your natural temperament in networking. You succeed by kind of working with your strengths. And where I see this is very applicable to engineers, which you already referenced earlier is that, you know, a lot of us as engineers are researchers, right? We like to go deep into topics. So if you're thinking about building two deep relationships, you know, some of those skills that you've learned in terms of researching and going deep on topics can translate, I think, very well to networking as opposed to us saying like, oh, I'm an engineer. I'm like, analytical. I can't do this. Well, maybe actually your ability to go deep is going to be what's kind of like a superpower here. Yes. And what you can't do is the advice that a lot of so-called networking experts offer up, which is like to never spend time alone or to more is more. And that is stuff that we as interests can't do and really shouldn't ever try to do because we'll crash and burn. So instead it goes back once again to respecting your energy. So if I say, oh, I should talk to everyone in this room or I should go to every program in this 3A conference, listen inside your head. And when you're saying to yourself, I should do this. I should do that. It almost always means you should not. So if I'm saying, you know what, the truth is, I get depleted with my energy. So I need to manage my energy and focus on what's most important for me at this event. So just a quick story that happened to me in real life and other similar things have happened to me frequently. But this one in particular, I was keynoting at a conference and my keynote topic was networking. I do talk about other topics too, but and some some women met me before the big keynote address and sort of said hello. And then I went off and I was sitting alone in the cafe with no one near me just like reading and they came behind to go, they were laughing. Oh, is this how you network? Ha ha ha. Catching me, you know, sitting there alone. And I said, yeah, this is exactly how I do it. This is how I can be good when I'm doing the keynote. And we all just laughed. But so it takes a little bit of guts sometimes to honor who you are. But go off by yourself. Give yourself downtime and respect that so you can get your energy up when it really matters. Yeah, and I like that point a lot because I also think that when someone goes to a conference, let's say, for example, you know, there's lots of engineering conferences, engineers will go, there's, you know, hundreds, thousands of people there. And I think sometimes because of the perception of networking, like we talked about earlier, which is, you know, just get out there and talk to a lot of people, you feel a pressure at a conference that, you know, you got to go to these big events, you got to be around a lot of people, you got a network. And if you're following kind of what you said earlier in terms of focus on making some deep relationships, then you really don't have to worry about that. Some of that pressure can go go away and you can just say, all right, I'm going to go back to my room, refresh, recharge, and I'm going to go back down and try to focus on those couple of people that I really wanted to connect with. Sure. And also to look for opportunities that will put you in your best light. So many people who don't like networking will procrastinate and show up late to the networking event. And then they'll walk into the exact scenario that they despise, which is noisy tons of people, everyone's already in conversation, crowded, and you're just going to want to leave, sneak out. Instead, a lot of my advice is counter intuitive. What I recommend is if you don't like networking, get there a couple of minutes early before most people are there. It's going to be quiet. People aren't already in conversations, big groups. It's not crowded. You can have a deeper conversation one-on-one with someone, and then you can leave early too, if that's part of your master plan as a present to yourself. Also, thinking about, oh, I don't like to talk about myself. Maybe I'm really private, which is a trait that many introverts have then. Think of great questions. A lot of introverts are known for being really good listeners. However, with that in mind, think of a few things you might be willing to share about yourself because conversations and relationships can get a little lopsided if you're only asking and not offering anything up. So again, in advance, think of what are some things I could say about myself that I'm okay with? Again, I have millions of tips I could talk all day, but there's a few of them right there. No, that's great. I think that one about showing up early. I like that a lot because an introvert that shows up to an event what a lot of people can obviously, they can create some stress, and it could be a little more difficult to get around the room and connect with people. Whereas if you get there early, you have your pick, and there's a few people, you can connect with them on that deeper level. I think really what the running theme is becoming of this conversation is really making those deep connections, which introverts I feel like we can do that because we have that deep thought process, that connection of going deep. So that's good news I think for a lot of our listeners. However, to switch gears for a minute though, we have a lot of students as well that listen to the podcast and they're kind of preparing of course to enter the workforce and they want to start networking and building their professional network. How can they make a good impression or how can they approach this process in a positive way? Okay, so let's say you're a student and you're, for example, looking for a mentor, and I work with lots of engineers by the way, and you're looking for a mentor and how do you set yourself apart? How do you make that person want to have a relationship with you? And again, it's stuff that introverts are great at is to research a little bit about that person, show that you know about them, that it's not just some generic question, I just want anyone to be my mentor or to help guide me, but let them know why you contacted them and make it as easy as possible for someone to say yes. So if I'm like, oh, you know, if I'm vague, that's not good. If I'm asking for what sounds like too much to you, if you're someone senior to me, that I'm going to create a connection with. So make it easy for them to say yes and be concrete and specific and show that you've researched that person and that you're seeking them out for a reason. They're just not one of many, many people. So that's one thing. I like that. Another thing is for introverts to also when you're with a group of people, let's say you don't know the people in advance and you want to kind of get to know them. So one important thing to remember is whoever you're talking to, especially at like an event where you want to network, decided that the person you're talking to is the right person for you to be talking to at this moment. So often we have preconceived notions of who the right person is. I think, oh, this person's not so interesting or won't help me in my career. Oh, a great thing to do is to think this person is the right person for me to be talking to right now, maybe not forever, but in this next 10 minutes or so. And my job is to find out why, what can we learn from each other? And that will ensure that you're the right person for other people to be talking to. That's great. Great advice. I really like that that part about doing the research on some before you approach them, especially if you're trying to find a mentor for a student or a younger engineering professional. That's really important. I'm a big believer in mentoring, finding the right mentor in your career. I think it can really help you in terms of your development. However, I do think it's difficult sometimes to approach people of course and ask someone, but following divorce advice there and really, I mean, there's plenty of resources to say LinkedIn or whatever the case may be in terms of learning about someone before you reach out to them that can really make all the difference in your connection with them and the response that they give you. So yeah. And I want to throw in there, don't be afraid to ask. So many people self-eliminate. They're like, oh, this person's way too important, way too busy, way too sought after. It doesn't hurt to ask, and especially asking in a concrete meaningful way. And let them decide that they don't want to do it, but don't you decide for them that they might not be interested in talking to you? That's right. That's what I always tell my kids. Never assume it makes you know you and me, but now the people make assumptions and it's not good because just because someone's a president of a company doesn't mean that they don't want to give back and mentor, you know, a younger engineer. And you'll actually be surprised more times than not than the people that I've talked to that have been more than willing to help out when needed. So I want to kind of go down this road a little bit. A lot of engineers go to quote unquote networking events, professional association events, lunchtime, breakfasts, happy hour, whatever it is, they make that initial contact that we've talked about already here. Then there's this process of deepening the relationship like you mentioned. So what are some steps that people can take beyond the initial meeting with someone to try to deepen a relationship if they do say, all right, listen, there's two or three people that I really want to develop relationships with. How do you recommend going about that process? Okay, so first you make the initial contact like we've established. And then the most important thing you can do is follow up because if you're not following up, you're not networking. So let me repeat myself. If you're not following up, it's not even networking. So that's how important that is. So you've met someone you want to follow up. Okay, but maybe you can't really keep track of who the different people are that you met at the event. So let's just back up a little bit and put you back in the moment where you've just made contact with someone who is potentially a valuable network opportunity for you. Then we tend to overestimate our own memory. So we might think, oh, yeah, it was great talking to Anthony and I'll write him next week. And the next day I look at these four or five cards I collected and I have no idea which one that person was. So we tend to forget about half of what we hear within 48 hours. So what I recommend you do at the event is after you've met someone who you really want to follow up with and it doesn't have to be everyone, just it might be one person or two people. Just take a moment to yourself. So added bonus, you get a little downtime and write on their card or write on something that you'll remember that it's linked to this person. A few things about the conversation, something, a topic you discuss, something they're interested in, maybe how to pronounce their name or a extracurricular they're interested in doing on the weekends. And then when you follow up, all of a sudden you've given this great gift to yourself. You're like, oh, yeah, I remember now he's really, really into soccer. So you have some, so it's very authentic and meaningful. And it shows to them you're really following up with them for a reason. It's not just generic email. And then always think, what can I do for the other person? Even if they're more senior than you or seem super important, there's always something that you can do for them. So instead of asking for something right away, offer something. And it can be any number of different things that can be tangible, like something really specific that they said that they are interested in or it could be an article that they might be want to read or another person to connect them with. But put your position yourself as someone helpful, not someone demanding. That's great. And so following up on that a little bit. So you meet the person, you make some notes about what they like, sports or wherever the case may be. And then in terms of follow up, you mean good email, like what are some approaches you could take in terms of keeping in touch with them? First, I would say, and I'll get to the email possibly a minute, you want to follow up within two days. So if while you still remember each other, so while they remember you and you remember them, except if you're especially if you're seeking something like a mentorship, it's the one day to kind of avoid non essential emails or follow up with non essential to the other and from the other person's opinion is Monday. People tend to be the most overwhelmed on Mondays. So if you meet someone out on a Saturday, for example, just wait until Tuesday, otherwise just in a really short time turnaround time. And then yeah, I think emails is still a great way to follow up. But you want to make your emails short, concise and to the point, not rambly. But I think emails is a fine way to follow up. If it's something really meaningful that someone already did for you, maybe they they got you an internship or something that it's a bit bigger deal. I think a great, I call it the secret weapon of networking is a handwritten note, not all the time. But if you really want to show that you something was very important to you, maybe it was just listening to this speech the person gave and it really hit some key points that you really learned a lot that you plan to implement back at the lab, then write a quick little handwritten note doesn't take any longer than email and it does make a great impression. That's great. And so in terms of like longer term maintenance now, right, like this is someone you met six months ago, you followed up with them, you've had little interactions here and there. It's just like, you know, keeping in just trying to keep in touch with these couple of people, maybe you've identified that you want to build deeper relationships, just keep some kind of regular cadence and to, you know, find something that's of interest to them, maybe you send it to them. Is that just something that you should try to do with people? Yes. And this is a real art, the art of following up. But actually, there's a brand new chapter in the second edition of networking for people who hate networking, just on this very topic follow up and about getting into more of the nuances of what to do and what to avoid. But the broad strokes are you do want to stay in touch, you don't want to overstay in touch. When you're looking, especially if you're looking for a new job or a promotion or something, it's way more on your radar than anyone else's. So you might think, oh, I haven't heard from them in three days, I'll just touch base again. So you don't want to be a pest. Right. And it's okay. And if they don't get back to you on the other hand, it doesn't mean that they don't like you or they think you're annoying. It might just be really, really busy. So on the one hand, you don't want to overdo it. But on the other hand, don't throw up your hands in the air and say, forget it. This person's not interested just because that you haven't heard from them. So stay in touch depends on, again, a situation. If you're asking someone to write you a letter recommendation, that's more urgent and time dependent than if you just want to be in each other's social network. So I would say just light touches and know that it might take a long time for some connections to come to fruition. There's been people that I've kept in touch with who I met maybe at a conference for a couple, two, three, even more years, and then all of a sudden we're doing work together. So patience is also a virtue. Sure. And I think to Devorah's point earlier, when you're thinking about following up with people, you always want to, of course, keep your messages briefly, concise, but also offer that value. So maybe there's an article that came out about some new guidelines and you know that it's going to affect a couple of people. You can send them a short email saying, hey, did you see these new guidelines that might affect your projects? Or there's a new software that came out that you maybe do work with an architect and he or she might benefit from that software. It's a perfect time to reach out and say, hey, I hope things are going well. I saw this software that it might be helpful for you in your projects. I think that's important because it gives a great reason to get in touch with them. And you know, it's a reason where you're providing value to them. So it's not just, hey, how's it going? It's, hey, thought you might like this. I hope things are going well. I know for me as an engineer when I was practicing, that approach was very helpful for me. Yeah. And it makes you memorable and it positions you as not only someone helpful, but someone also who's thoughtful and generous and think creatively around it. So for example, people are often asking me, oh, can I grab a cup of coffee with you and pick your brain on, you know, networking or managing or single-tasking or one of my bigger topics. And I do it when I can. I can't always do it. But a woman asked me to meet with her and I said, sure. And she said, if in case I get there before you, what do you usually order the cafe? And I told her, well, she surprised me and got there early and got a beautiful, like take home mug and got it filled with the drink I said I liked and gave it to me as a thank you present when I arrived. Relatively small gesture, doesn't cost a lot of money, but I drank out of that mug for a few years and thought of her. And I remember who she is, as opposed to other people I might have forgotten about. So just also think it can be something like that, too. It doesn't have to be a typical thank you. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've done the same thing with people where I've given them like a book, not my book, but just a book that I thought would be helpful for one of the challenges that they were struggling with. And they use the book effectively. And for a long period of time they kept saying, well, you know, Anthony, you gave me that book and it really changed the game for me in terms of my productivity or whatever the case may be. So certainly, gestures like that can go a long way. And they really do provide a great way to build the relationship with people deep in the relationship with people, which is really what we're talking about here. Again, as I said earlier, this has really become kind of a theme of this episode. All right, so what we're going to do now is we'll take a short break. We'll come back with Devorah and we'll wrap things up in our Take Action Today segment. All right, so we're back with Devorah Zach, author of Networking for People Who Hate Networking, currently in its second edition. And we've talked quite a bit about how introverts can network and really build deep relationships. And what we want to do here to wrap it up for you is we want to go a little bit deeper in terms of helping you get out there, because I know it can be a struggle for a lot of introverts to do that. So Devorah is going to share a story with us from a client that she worked with. Deciding you want to change or improve your networking abilities and comfort with networking is really about setting goals for yourself. And a lot of goals we don't achieve because they're poorly formed meaning they're not concrete. So by way of example, I was working with a senior executive at a Fortune 100 company who wanted to network better and he was an introvert and we could have just said, okay, try harder, let's touch base in three months, but we would have no way of knowing whether or not he'd accomplished his goal because it was intangible. So instead we made it very structured and very specific. We said in the next three months, twice a month, that he would invite someone to have coffee or tea with him for half an hour and someone he didn't know well that he'd like to get to know better. In his case, it was someone in his office, but it could be for you, whatever is meaningful to you. And it was a great goal because it was challenging but achievable. So as an introvert, it was challenging to say, okay, I'm going to do this six times in the next three months, but it wasn't overwhelming. It didn't say every day and it wasn't too easy just once. So he liked that amount, that structure. And then it was something he could literally check off his list of things to do. So at the end of each month, he had either done it twice or he hadn't. And it kept him really focused on it. And he was able to achieve the goal of meeting and getting to know and getting started on networking relationships with six people in a period of three months. That's great. And that's actually perfect for speaking as an engineer myself. I think that's perfect for engineers because we like structure. We like to be able to see what we want to accomplish, check it off when it is accomplished and just have some kind of process to follow. So again, I think this can really apply to a lot of things for engineers, but we're talking about networking here and coming up with some networking goals. Listen, if you're shy on comfortable networking right now, start with small goals, accomplish those smaller goals, get in touch with a couple of people, and then expand them as you become more and more comfortable. Absolutely. Small steps. And also, I think every small step you take, you build a little more confidence and that confidence will help you help kind of grow and grow. And so I really think this conversation that we're having here, what I've taken out of it is understand the meaning of networking, which is building deep relationships with people, not building a lot of relationships necessarily, which I think sometimes is confused. And take your time with it, but be consistent with it and follow up with it and do those things. And if you have to use a process, use a process. Devorah, we thank you so much for spending a little time with us here and for sharing some of your thoughts around networking. Again, the book is called Networking for People Who Hate Networking. It's currently in its second edition. And as Devorah said, there is kind of an assessment in the beginning of the book that will help you figure out where you are in the introvert spectrum, which can be really critical in terms of what steps you might want to take in terms of networking. And again, Devorah, thank you so much for your time. My pleasure. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please leave your comments and or questions in the comments section below this video. Also, if you'd like to view the full show notes for this episode, visit engineeringmanagementinstitute.org or see the link in the video description. There you will find the key points discussed in today's episode as well as links to any of the resources, websites, or books mentioned during the episode. Until next time, I wish you the best in all of your engineering career endeavors.