 Aloha! Welcome to Shrink Wrap Hawaii. My name is Steven Philip Katz. I'm a marriage and family therapist and every week we talk to other therapists, hence the Shrink Wrap name. We wrap with shrinks or their ilk. And this week we are in for some razzle-dazzle because we have Dr. Daniel Lev. Welcome Daniel. Nice to see you. Love to razzle you. A reprise performance. But this time we're gonna focus on the use of hypnotism. Yes. In various forms of therapy with with different problems. Yeah. Right. So what do you use it for? Is that not like you know where you're gonna get up and bark like a dog that kind of hypnotism? Well I call that hypnotainment. You ever get into like a bar or a show somewhere where you know the hypnotist is there and she says come on up and half a dozen people will come up or more. Some of them might be a little inebriated and they get up there right and they you think that she's making them do things. Yeah. But you see she tests them out first. She'll say put your hands together. They put their hands. Now now pull your hands apart. Your hands can't pull apart but pull them apart. Everybody goes like they should thank you very much. So she selects out all the people who want to act silly because they know that's what the hypnotist does and they're also somewhat hypnotizable. That is stage hypnosis. I do clinical hypnosis. Okay. So if you've got a problem with habits or chronic pain especially stress all kinds of difficulties even depression it's very helpful for depression, self-esteem, any other problems that in conjunction with other aspects of therapy hypnosis is a very useful skill. So talk to me about the use in depression because I have quite a few clients who are coping with depression trying to get out of depression. How would you use hypnosis? Well hypnosis is like I said it's a skill and in depression there are a number of things that contribute to that problem. One might just be getting out and doing things. Right. The person may feel no energy. Yeah. So I've worked with some folks with with depression who want to start moving their body because we know when you move your body your mood goes up and so we'll use hypnosis as a way to help them connect with their inner resources to connect with their inner energy and when you connect with your inner energy you can't help but take a walk. So it's not like I'm saying with your aware mind well just get up and go out because they've been trying to do that for a long time. Right. Instead we'll just explore the aspects of moving one's body around and you can use your imagination and I'm just talking about some ideas and as those ideas come they might find some of those ideas interesting and their inner mind will take those ideas and they'll expand into a very pleasant experience. Let me tell you for a moment what is hypnosis. Okay. We don't know. We don't. There's no consensus although there are many theories about what it is but one way I like to explain it to people instead of saying what it is except maybe it's a way to use your brain in a way we have many for lack of a better term a sort of energy or power in our brain to help us transform our behaviors and feelings and they're there and we can access them as you use hypnosis as a technique we call it hypnosis but the way I like to explain it is it's what you do so meditation let's look at that real quickly meditation relaxation all kinds of things like that you do two actions and when you do these two actions you actually change your physiology it's called the relaxation responses right one aspect of that so when you do two things the first thing you do is you let go and relax so you're sitting maybe laying down and relaxing your body even relaxing your mind letting the thoughts come and go okay and you do those two things classic meditation let's say I'm focusing on my breathing here and that's the one thing and I'm focusing on after I relax that's I focus on one thing hypnosis as a third thing and that is taking in ideas so you're sitting there and I saying you know you're sitting there relaxing let's say should we do it yeah yeah well why don't we do it but let me explain just really briefly you're sitting there relaxing and I might say I'm not sure which one of those arms might feel lighter maybe the left arm or the right arm or the left elbow or whatever now if you're sitting there and you're letting go relaxing you're focusing on my voice your inner mind your brain will start taking that in because who doesn't want to have a nice feeling in their arms although you'll take that in and I've done this with a number of people they go into a deep comfortable trance it's kind of like a hypnotic state some people call it a trance and when they come out they feel great or whatever work we've done good things have happened but it's not automatic because I may say one of those arms feels great and one guy worked on he went to this very deep trance oh it was really great and he came out and I said how was he said oh this was great he was wonderful I said well how do your arms feel nothing but my left leg feels great so for him his brain took my words translated them into his leg being feeling nice and light and comfortable okay was he having problems with his leg before I can't remember why it went to his leg but the important thing is this all hypnosis is self-hypnosis so I can't make you do anything against your will or against your beliefs okay even something is as simple as suggesting your arms feel such a way well some people will have a different experience but it will be their own so yeah why don't we try a little bit of it it's okay very simple just let your eyes close if you want there's so many different ways to do what's called an induction it's just an invitation to go into a bit of a trance this is very simple one and you're sitting there and it you're already aware that the seats holding you up and you can be held up and feel comfortable at the same time feel even relaxed while you're sitting there that's right just notice your breath going in and out all naturally and let me ask you just to imagine something imagine that as your breath is moving in and out something interesting might be happening and what I suggest to everyone is I'm suggesting to you is you don't have to make anything happen or look for anything in particular just notice it's just noticing what's happening for example you might notice that as you breathe in a nice feeling may start to form in your hands perhaps the palms of your hands very nice it might be warm or cool light or heavy or something else I'm not certain but only you'll know as you breathe in you may notice that nice feeling filling the hands that's right and maybe as you breathe out you'll notice that feeling might start to flow into your belly let's say or your body just kind of flows in so as you inhale it fills the palms flows inside as you exhale and I'm going to be quiet just for a moment while you're noticing what you notice and as your inner mind the deepest part of the deepest part of your brain as your inner mind allows you or invites you inside to a very pleasant experience your conscious or outside awareness may notice you're feeling quite comfortably relaxed and knowing that we'll have to come back sooner than I normally would invite someone you can know that later on when you're home if you want you can do this simple little practice of sitting comfortably closing the eyes and just noticing as the breath fills the palms and flows inside wonderful sensation so I'm going to count from one all the way up to five to invite you back to the room you can follow those numbers any way you want or return any way you want one two leaving behind whatever you want to leave behind three bringing back what you want to bring with you for noticing the seat comfortably holding you up and so some point after five the eyes will eventually open refreshed and comfortable but take your time in returning to the room hi I didn't look at the clock but often I'll ask how long did that feel how many minutes that feel like two or three yeah I think it was more than that and that's a normal thing that's it's called a time distortion and clock time becomes different from brain time what was that like for you how do you feel relaxed what did you notice you remember um at one point when you were talking about noticing a good feeling in my hands I felt a cool little tiny breeze on my palms and cooling them off and I was aware of my breath what was nice is but I did not my mind wasn't wandering like I do a lot of meditation on my own and you know thoughts come in and come out and what's nice you know because you have this very soothing voice one might say hypnotic it was easy to it didn't have that monkey mind thing going on where you're thinking of all these thoughts that was I wasn't thinking of anything I was just listening and following the instructions paying attention noticing I like that word sometimes I think they should call meditation noticing yeah it is you know Shikantaza in a way in the Japanese tradition it's just sitting but it's also just noticing it's interesting you mention this with the with meditation meditation yes we often get distracted quite a bit but here when you add that third object of focus which is the words that are coming out of my mouth right and your inner mind uses it you're just too busy right right too many things going on distractions and that's the really cool thing and wise is used with pain or distress or anxiety depression is because you can tap into the elements of your your brain that helps you feel so busy with these wonderful things you don't have time to listen to those depressing thoughts or to listen to those anxious thoughts or any of those things with the pain or the pain you don't have time to listen to it because you're so busy doing this and then I'm you probably feel nice for a while I call that the halo effect when you come out of the hypnotic state you're still a little bit in a hypnotic state as you're going through your day it's kind of like you have this halo of a nice feeling and the more you practice because this is a skill you just did all the work I put a few words out yes so but you did the work I'm not how how do I do it without your how do I do it on my own right because I don't have that other thing great I mean I could play I know you want to talk to me more so I won't ask you to do this but what I would say right now if you were a client in the room and I'm we were moving into the self-hypnosis yeah practice I'd say close your eyes and start to focus on your palms just like we did I'm gonna be quiet while you do the same thing I just did with you okay or we there are some basically you are the hypnotist and it takes a while to develop because the hard part is not to try too hard so I worked with this woman she was absolutely amazing woman terrible painter low back in her knee okay hobbling around I used to work at Kaiser in the chronic pain program they actually let me do hypnosis which is very cool and she would come in she was very good subject and she came in and she sat in the seat she was in terrible pain and I would do things with her and and in no time she wiped it out I mean it's a long story so I won't tell the whole thing but this piece of the story I want to tell you is one day she comes in she says I'm not sure it's working anymore says what happened well I turned the wrong way in the garage turn my body that I hurt and as I'm going to the house I'm trying to use hypnosis but I keep thinking but but why is that happening and then then she tried again then why is that happening so she kept trying too hard to make something happen hypnosis the way hypnosis works if whether I'm leading you or you're leading you is you allow the experience you replace desperate seeking with curious noticing hmm I'm gonna see what happens when I follow my breath what am I gonna notice you're gonna notice that we went to a break we did we want to learn more about the isolated disconnected people alone in our community so Daniel you were speaking about this client with the pain and it didn't work because she was trying too hard right so it's there's a balance there right yeah between letting it happen and wanting it to happen you know force it to happen why would we do it if we didn't want to do something to make it happen right but the way hypnosis works is the way you put a baby to sleep when it's having a hard time you don't say go to sleep or whatever kid you know now you tell me and my mother knows how to do hypnosis is a word you will call it different things yeah reading a storybook to a kid and then what kid I'm reading with my wife every night we reading a chapter of war oh I am out and then the soldier said you know you change your voice a little bit but but it's a natural state we all go into it you're like drive across the bridge you're talking with a friend you get across the bridge you don't quite remember the trip across the bridge oh who was driving the car so your inner mind was driving the car but if someone cuts you off it would let you know very fast so you're maybe like oh and you would come back but it's a natural state okay but the way we get to it on purpose is to allow it to happen by just doing some of these things and noticing not pushing but noticing so I never even though that is a form of hypnosis and the counter three you'll be asleep one two three and actually it worked with a lot of people back in the 50s I saw some of these these these training films are pretty amazing but but now it's more helping the person find it themselves and so it's an allowing and it's a training you know it's a skill and as you learn the skill you actually can apply it to a number of difficulties even couples issues okay even to be able to calm think straight and then come back out I call it a hypno-quickie you can sit and just count from ten down to one and just let yourself feel more and more relaxed you know some people use visual imagination or other you know they'll imagine that they're slowly immersing in the ocean or in a hot tub or whatever these if I could use that like with couples like very often some of the most difficult couples that I work with one partner is very expressive intense emotional right like way up here right right and the other one is the opposite right very reserved doesn't say a lot emotionally sort of which drives the intense one crazy yeah makes him or her even you know for some reason it's more often the her yeah gotta be careful with that but it's not always like that but and the less response they getting from the quiet partner right right the more intense they become the louder they become right if I could teach the quiet one to bring the intense one down to not get scared because that's what happens they get scared and then they avoid they stonewall yeah well they run away yeah I'm not saying this is the answer no no but I'm just that would be great if I could one approach perhaps again you know people are people this is just a blank case I don't know the people yeah one approach might be if they're both willing to sit close their eyes and if they're close enough that they're willing to hold hands that even helps but even if not and this sounds a little bit strange but ask her and remind her or not remind her but just notice you're very calm person you're amazingly calm to start to frame it as that positive aspect she's very calm and invite her to almost project that calm sensation into the chair next to you and your husband do that with the intense one both of them are sitting there yeah talking to the wife she's sending it over and then the husband you have incredible energy you have incredible energy you know vitality see if you can send a little bit of that over to her now in a way it kind of creates a sense of empathy and giving because I'm also talking to the husband while I'm talking to her of course and talking to her while I'm talking to the husband but it in that particular situation that might be a way I go just take and you know with hypnosis like with therapy we try numbers of things you know to see what fits the person you know I don't have like a set of techniques you're gonna do ABC and that's gonna work with everybody we know that doesn't work but there are some things that have been developed by people in our profession that do tend to help a lot of people and we will work with that but it is a challenge when you work with a couple like that people in chronic pain too especially pain is one of those areas that hypnosis shows the most consistent positive use okay that people are able to do more feel more comfortable to engage in more activities right as they do this as a practice along with other things well I remember I took this John Capit-Zinn mindfulness right workshop and he does a lot with people in chronic pain and one thing he got us to do was to notice the moments when we're not in pain because even though people say it hurts all the time right it doesn't really right I mean if you're not aware of it if you focused on something else if you focused on playing with your grandchild were you focused on having sex like when I had back pain mm-hmm it was there yeah but I wasn't paying attention to and this is where hypnosis comes in this very concept you just told me a lot of people can't consciously say I can't notice that it hurts all the time but when they go inside a little bit and start to tap into their brain's ability to focus just like you did the thoughts weren't distracting you right you were very you were too busy being involved in this interesting experience and as they do that they start to notice oh I do have these interesting experiences these experiences where I'm actually feeling a little better but of course you know when I'm feeling terrible that tends to close my eyes and if I tap into my brain I can open my eyes to what's really happening to the comfort that actually is there and then I notice what I had my back pain that there's definitely a connection between pain and depression because the back pain lasted for about a year and a half I had to change professions because of thank goodness that was the benefit I didn't know it at the time yeah yeah yeah but the feeling that the pain is not going to ever go away is what caused the depression which I think was worse than the pain that's right because when you when you have the notion in your head that this is my life you want to say I don't want it yeah of course and partly that's due to a phenomena where people feel the pain is bigger than they are it just dominates their whole life right and I told you this book I'm writing self-help book for people in pain I call it you are bigger than the pain and as you use techniques like hypnosis you start to make this discovery I can't tell you how many people in the classes that I've done I'm doing some here but when I was working for Kaiser doing these groups five groups a week and people will come in very pessimistic so we'll just try it and they try to and within a couple of weeks even if they didn't practice regularly at home but they did some they started to discover that they felt better I mean they actually felt the thing that most people in pain or having other kinds of conditions feel it's terrible they feel powerless when they do these things you feel you have some control in your life right and it's amazing because it's a paradox the control is letting go of control to some degree by just sitting down focusing your attention a certain way you know when you talk about the control I think of another technique it's called thought-feel therapy right and there's another offshoot emotional freedom technique right they call it right where as part of the therapy at first they ask you to whatever it is you're trying to get rid of let's say it's anxiety right certain triggers bring on the anxiety for me it used to be getting a shot oh yeah me too you know all I I would all it took was stepping into the doctor's office and I would turn white as a sheet yeah right get cold and feel like I was gonna pass out right and so we practice that technique and the first step is okay imagine yourself going to get a shot create the anxiety and the paradox is I think your brain realizes if you can create the anxiety you can uncreate it no absolutely a lot of these techniques even the MDR have hypnotic elements to them or they are hypnosis in a way in fact I recommend I'll say to them directly all of you therapists out there anybody working with people to help them learning some hypnosis is going to really help you help them because a lot of hypnosis is about communication and communicating to you how do I tell you walking to the doctor's office is safe well let's imagine what that might look like hmm or imagine even what it's like and then doing the other distracting kind of technique and you're feeling okay even though you're holding in your imagination this scary thing it becomes less scary you know that's another way it works so they're telling me that we got to wrap it up okay and I feel like we've just scratched the surface we got to do some more and if somebody wanted to a therapist wanted to learn some hypnosis is there any place on the island you can learn you know I don't think there are any classes that I'm aware of in fact I've been thinking about doing a teaching a class yeah doing a continuing education at least that would be awesome just because you know because I need to do I need to increase my skills to and I have to go to the mainland for that yeah one thing I will suggest is Michael Yapko's book I believe it's essentials of hypnosis it's a little book it's a good intro to hypnosis and it would be very useful and how do they reach you 8 0 8 6 3 3 6 5 6 9 808 6 3 3 6 5 6 9 or my website you can just type in comfort clinic org and you'll find my website thank you Daniel my pleasure thank you and thank you everybody I appreciate thank you see you next time bye bye