 Hey, great. Hi, Jerry. How are you? I'm good. I can kill us here as well. How are you? How's how's your role? Oh It's good, I guess but as you said in your mail, you know so many issues and so little time it's It's I think my most difficult task these days is Swimming against the stream Which has been true for a hundred years, I guess Yeah To keep one's chin up, you know, yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's all worth fighting for my goodness, but Fighting despondency from time to time I find Things are tough, you know, not in my personal life, but in the world in general, you know, for sure. I mean, there's a whole Young people are trying to figure out whether or not to have kids like the Yeah, the birth rate is going down People are kind of figuring out People are making like different decisions about whether to start a family like because because of the world That's true. That's got to be significant, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, that's happening Hey everybody morning morning morning What's the what's what? anybody Want to remember something? We put a smile on your face in the last couple days Other than one of us saying something strange Which happens regularly for me Got a new tire on the a new front tire on my motorcycle yesterday excellent um The guys at Kawasaki had failed to balance it last time So it wore out way way quicker than the the rear so I had to buy another one And I presented the issue to them with smiles as one does in thailand They fitted it real quick. They gave me Free brake pads and didn't charge me anything. Wow Nice. Yeah, that so that was super. Yeah, you'll be back. Yeah Yeah, absolutely. It's about maintaining good relationships where you can even although people have let you down, perhaps I'm sure they didn't do it deliberately That's nice. So yeah, that put a smile on your face. There you go Exactly. I had a smile on my face this morning. I looked out the window and there was a gigantic rainbow just a huge beautiful rainbow because it's the rains are starting but this morning It's just kind of misty and sunrise is behind us because we face eat. We face west and so The hillside was just starting to light up and the whole hillside was framed into gigantic Gigantic rainbow is really beautiful Anybody else anything to put a smile on your face in the last couple days? You asking that question with a smile on my face here. No, I like that. Yeah, it's a great way to start a call I like that. Thank you Um Actually, I saw a couple poems go by in the last couple of days that put a smile on my face um If only I had sort of marked them out because I don't know that I can find my way back to them But there's one that is in Spanish and English and it cuts back and forth in just a very beautiful way Um, and it's the subject of it is really good. So Got to know which one was um Why don't we start our our actually no before we start our rounds? I want to say that This monday jim rut of game b Said yes to funding a small amount of money to start up a video podcast Called weaving the world which I have proposed to him and which And at the risk of mixing too many metaphors here Weaving the world feeds The big fungus And so weaving the world will will try to visit people who have good ideas to fix the world um And I think that who we visit and how we go about it is interesting But then uh, but then what'll be interesting is And I'm kind of saying that the the podcast lives above ground where it looks and smells like other podcasts But below ground we're busy kind of feeding the fungus Which means we and hopefully others Will be putting together a persistent memory of what it was that happened in the episodes Who what where how that all works and the beginnings of that will be me minding my brain and been publishing those things openly But as we go, um, hopefully, uh, we start to sort of build the plane as we fly it And other people show up and start to connect in uh to that and we figure out how to use it in different ways Mr. Kaminsky Um, congratulations straight. That's great news. Thank you. Um, I wonder if you could talk a little bit since this is an OGM call, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the relationship between weaving the world and OGM That sounds like a great idea So OGM as we kind of decided a couple months ago on a call Is less than organization and more a movement or a hashtag or a way of being in the world Or as pete also said very early in our calls a verb um and so Weaving the world as an og we both of these entities are ogemi entities and are basically held In the OGM community and held by OGM. So they're in that sense. They're powered by OGM OGM projects However, you might want to say it And I'm hoping that the OGM community Wants to take part and jumps in and does different sorts of things also Weaving the world is meant to be one of many different Shows or other entities that are feeding the big fungus So I'd like to invite others who have a sort of parallel thoughts to come in and and do those kinds of things Um Those are the starting thought pete other things in your mind about that um uh I wonder so is Is weaving the world an ogm project and ogemi project? um, yes, yes, is it a project by Who's who's who's weaving the world and is it kind of like visiting the different ogemi parts of of space time and and describing how they are ogemi and um Yes, so um, so I'm mentioning it here because we you know, we have an entity that That we can pick up and start doing and if other people would like to participate and stacey and I've been talking a bunch about Her approach toward figuring out Gains that motivate people to do things that are ogemi And I think sort of I think where we are right now stacey correct me if i'm wrong Is that in in some uh in some sense? You'll be a correspondent about gm rather than standing up your own podcast or your own your own entity which sounds totally awesome to me and um, so so think here of john stewart and or trevor noah and his correspondence, although there's no pressure to be funny stacey, but but Some of i'm actually very funny. You don't know me that well, but i'm very funny You know what if you want to go crazy on that front. I am all on board um And then pete is asking in the chat. Oh, so weave the world in the big fungus really good basic questions So, um weaving I view I view my use of the Of the brain as a form of modern information loom And in fact mark on twan ta ha who is in the ogemi community Has a an older project called info loom. I think that's the name of this project and so for for me, um weaving information is part of weaving the world and um And one of one of my beliefs which is kind of a claim behind this is that we're we're losing ability to cooperate collaborate And fix things that are that are problematic right outside the window because we don't have a shared context We're not we have a wikipedia and we have a google and those are interesting and they're important and essential foundations But we're not sort of making sense of the world enough together Uh, and so weaving the world is is a big piece of that And it includes the social emotional Yin side of all that so A piece of weaving the world could be hey, here's a nugget of information Let's connect it logically to all the things that it belongs to Another piece of weaving the world is sitting down with people who have different points of view from us and figuring out how that works So so weaving the world as a show Is meant to explore that territory and go visit people and communities And build some of the connections that we're looking to do The big fungus is a thanks beat for putting idea loom in the chat And the big fungus is a metaphor. I really like partly because it's funny like who doesn't want a t-shirt that says I feed the big fungus Maybe most of you don't want one, but I do And I use it because I feel like I've been feeding a big fungus sort of In a lonely way for a while while working out this brain thing And what I mean is And some of you have already heard this multiple times, but leaf cutter ants don't eat leaves They can't digest and metabolize leaves What they do is they bring those leaves into the hive where they mulch them up Put them on a fungus and the fungus metabolizes the leaves and feeds the entire hive Um and in this way, I think weaving and and here's where the metaphor really start getting mixed up and funny But in this way, I think weaving the world would be multiple people coming together to Feed the fungus and whatever other communities want to call the fungus I don't like like the big fungus is just one way of visualizing The shared space of what we know what we believe and uh and how we're going to work together to to solve things Right um and and it's perfectly okay for other people to have different names and descriptors for it The goal here is for us to connect what we know and to be able to see and compare And set up experiments and tell stories all of those kinds of things within these frameworks um and for right now the big fungus lives on github and in uh actually on youtube For example, one piece of our big fungus is all the calls that we've had that I have downloaded from zoom Uploaded to youtube added to some playlists and all that those are those are part of the big fungus Because they're in the public sphere anybody can go watch them Uh, I have links to them from my brain other people are linking to them in other ways So those that's part of the big fungus and then we've exported My brain into a bag of jason objects, but we haven't yet done anything active with that But the moment that becomes a more active thing And we drop people's attention to it. That is a piece of the big fungus and and I'm thinking metaphorically again to mix metaphors Of my brain as starter the way you have sourdough starter to start the next batch of sourdough as starter for this this brain So let me pause for a second and see what confusions I've I've raised by mixing metaphors and trying to explain this other questions are great. Thank you Would you go along with the idea of big mushroom instead of big fungus? So Yes, and mycelium came up also as as the as the question and hyphae are the tippy the tippy ends of mycelium I like all this language So mushroom is just the fruiting body of mycelium. So the big mushroom Is like interesting but but also the mushroom occurs above ground and is the visible part and the edible part of this whole thing Actually, the mycelium is sort of edible depends on like where you're growing it If you're growing it on soil not so edible, but if you're growing it by itself, you can feed it to pigs. It's really nutritious Anyway, um, so and and this is initial language. This is sort of a starting point I just I just think that the big fungus is much funnier than the big mycelium or the mycelium Or the social mycelium or the knowledge mycelium or something like that But i'm happy to riff on these things. It's it's funnier, but I think the listening in this culture is that fungus is nasty Which is totally cool like if you want to engage children talk about poop That's true Right, uh, you just start a poop joke and talk about poop and they'll be like, ah cheese, but what okay So i'm i'm okay with that. I'm i'm i'm good. I'm good with getting a little grubby and having people have a little u response Uh, because also we have an u response. We've sort of come into I think of A piece of society and I attribute this in part to consumerism where people are going u to thinking Actually sitting and thinking about stuff and trying to solve things together and going into, you know, uh What what does condom and call it a stage two thinking? No type two thinking um As opposed to type one thinking which is our instinctive knee jerk responses And so I think there's a little bit of of you know Eating our broccoli together here In a sense of this this is going to be about doing some some work to sit down and try to figure out What do we think and what's going on? By the way, the the fun guy that that destroy insects are like really gross to see but like fascinating really fascinating and um There's a whole bunch of sort of antagonistic mutualisms and then productive mutualisms that happen in nature The one the one the cordyceps is like scary and reading about it is really scary But but the beneficial one for example at the fungus face Some biologists noticed that the ants that are sitting mulching leaves at the fungus face have a little white powder On their thorax and body. They were like wonder what that white powder is so they scrape it off They go examine it and it turns out that this is a this is a mutualistic beneficial bacterium That plays a role in keeping the fungus healthy And it's it's you know, it's it's it's a whole piece of the ecosystem That's happening and then a thing that I realized just yesterday after talking about the big fungus for a while Was that the big fungus is part of the wood wide web? Which is a whole series of other really interesting observations about how How the world works which is all held inside of healthy soil clouds And and sort of soil There's a there's a third finished essay on one of the tabs in my browser titled data is the new soil Where you know data is the new oil is kind of a phrase and a lot of by which a lot of people mean data Is the new precious commodity make Thomas horde refine and sell back to people at least that's my impression And to me data is the new soil is the opposite of that Data is the new soil means data is the new commons that we need to make healthy And rank richer and more nutritious so that as we plant ideas and we plant communities in it Things get better. So I think there's this there's this admixture of Of sort of actual things happening in nature that operate as metaphor as we shift them over into society and information that are really to me very generative very rich very Nutritious and I'd like to play in that in that area for a while Juicy mushroom Juicy is kind of juicy is a sexy word Juicy mushroom, but it's not gross Listen, that's true. That's true. It's a little gross because as they get old they tend to like get leaky and but still people don't think that much The tasty mushroom makes it makes us sound like a vegan restaurant right Any other questions thoughts these are these are great So at the end of the two months when Supposedly the funding will be up. What are you hoping the next step will be? Um, one of the tasks at hand is to find other people who would like to fund this and us Possibly the gym ruts family foundation would like to read up. I don't know. There's no There's no guarantee at all of that. This just helps us get up and get moving But I think figuring out how what what next to do about it is a really important question and part of the first project And how will you measure how successful the project was? So at this point the project just says we will stand up six episodes of weaving the web and we will for each episode We will post openly Some kinds of maps at the beginning the default is me and the brain posted You know Which is what I do after during and after every one of our calls, right? So as links come up and as we talk about stuff during this call I will be feeding my brain afterward. I'll take whatever open tabs are in my browser and add those to it I will then post the whole thing to the web. So so the normal rhythm of what we do now is just part of this project and then Also a part of the project is setting these things up so that they look like actual podcasts with an intro and outro Figuring out who edits what and what goes where a piece of the budget Or of this project is to pay for some audio and video production Uh and things like that Gary, what's the first episode? I don't know. I'm I'm sort of busy making plans and booking the first call. I'm thinking of setting so I'm thinking of setting like Wednesdays at 9 a.m. Pacific as a as a regular call time, but then Because a piece of the goal of weaving the world is to go visit people I think some of the episodes will just happen when those people have time And they will be more like our pop-up calls here But I think if if there's a regular rhythm of one call a week, I think that would be fine There's also the interesting question of If post processing a call is important Then maybe there's like alternating shows maybe the one episode Is some new person new community or whatever and we talk about stuff And then the next episode is post processing and whoever wants to show up Shows up with their own map of what they they heard and saw during the episode and what they know about that persons Or that community is thinking, uh, you know If we do an episode on afro futurism Then we in the post processing we're like, okay, so let's have a discussion just about what happened there Let's not have a whole new discussion and that that might have been an episode of the show as well so I'm trying to think of What's different there there are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of podcasts and blogs out in the world already today Some of which are extremely good Many of which are really lengthy and you can't just watch the whole things I'm trying to figure out how to then add a lot of value to this process in a way that others want to like do as well because If what we do is is is easy to emulate and other people want to start Debriefing connecting weaving what they know into the big fungus that is a huge win That's like a big that's a big deal if other people start wanting to do this kind of thing as well Jerry I realize that podcasts are generally audio, but It might be interesting for people to watch you do the post call processing So so there's a whole nomenclature thing. I'm like, so wait a minute What do you call a vlog or a video or whatever and my best understanding as of this moment Is that sort of technically speaking a podcast is audio only A video podcast is a podcast that has a video component that shows up on places like twitch and youtube A vlog is a video podcast like thing, but vlogs tend to be much more informal a little bit like Blog posts, which might be very, you know, very personal like a diary And that boundary I think is really fuzzy because hank and john green Who are two of my heroes are the vlog brothers and they've been vlogging for I don't know 18 years or something like that They've been doing that a very long time And what they're doing is very clearly A role model for what i'm seeing us doing as weaving the wet of the world. So So the terminology aside, I think there's something very interesting here is like, you know At the end of this call, you're going to go and sit with your brain and do some stuff We're going to do some juju stirring Yes, that's a remarkable process I don't know anybody who does it like you do or even understands what you're doing and there's jewels in there to to kind of open up the kimono and you know It's it's it's like it's like bloopers real at the end of the movie or something like that's like the movie The podcast is over now. Here's what sherry does next before he goes off on his walk and giving visibility that might be fascinating um agree and and Let me come back to that in a sec But you mentioned earlier that most podcasts or audio wouldn't be interesting to see I think our primary mode is the video podcast, which is visual which Just is it needs to be visual because of the of the brain and stuff like that But I suggested to jim that there could easily be an audio podcast because we can put in the intro Hey, the you know, there's moments in here where we're going to do something visual That's not going to not going to work in the podcast But this just opens it up to a whole bunch more people and with with tools like anchor dot fm It's relatively easy to go do something like that And if we can if we can more or less automate the process of turning out an audio podcast as well That's like fantastic. So that that's one thought that from earlier, but then back to what you just said gill There's a scenario in which this is a twitch tv channel where There happen to be guests coming through but the rest of the time we're busy weaving together And screen sharing and stuff like that and this is actually The post processing is in fact a piece of the show a little bit like live coding or whatever where We're just kind of doing the work of feeding the fungus in in public view And that's interesting now I'm not ready to do that But I'm interested like like if there was a three hour block every day If there was a three hour block every single day where we coated together did this stuff together post process together So that I don't want to have a three hour block every day where there's like six hours needed to post process What happened in a three hour block? Yeah, that's not that's not the goal The goal is to do the all of this sort of weaving as we sit together which which gill I agree is interesting. I think For me, I have many many moments where I sit down and like damn it I wish I had a time lapse capture of the last two hours of my digging around and feeding stuff into the brain and reading Articles and copying a few things out of them and taking notes Like I've had that feeling many many many times And and I haven't ever sat down at the beginning of a period where I know I'm going to do some some thinking about a good article I've never sort of sat and and set a camera or or You know, I use a telestream Sorry, I use screen flow from telestream is my screen capture app I've never I've never sat down to to put turn that on at the beginning of a session like that and try something like time loss Photography or whatever else Yeah, and and I don't want to turn into big brother and the household that has video cameras on all the time either That's like a little scary to me Um, because you forget at some point that like the camera's on like as you pick your nose and there you go But just on your screen just yeah Not your life. Well, my screen is also personal correspondence and a bunch of other stuff that shouldn't show up, you know, uh In the in the public stream So how how to do that is I think a question for a little bit later But but I really like that direction a lot and we'd be happy to hear other people's thoughts on it Yeah, can I diverge on the on the picking your nose? Thank you very much. Sure diverge on picking your nose Steve Steve Barnett who was brilliant cultural anthropologist Did high level market research for major corporations? Talked about planting video cameras in people's homes voluntarily, of course So they can track their behavior around dish washing or whatever was the objective study But and they threw out all the footage That they took until people started showing up in their underwear washing the dishes And they said okay now we've got data that we can use and from there on they Gathered what they gathered because people were no longer attentive to the camera Right, right. They all the first part was performative until people forgot the camera was there and and by the by Every Alexa device every google home device every, uh, you know every all these devices are now like We're already being piped out our our private lives are In someone's hopefully gentle and trustworthy hands, but not always But like like cultural anthropologists of the future if they have access to some of the data will have More access to if the data survives, which it's unlikely to do They will have more access to how actual humans live day to day than anyone has ever had about any generation of humans Like the idea that that you've got a like a a mic or and or a camera on in people's homes all the time is like crazy api um We might have dug into it enough already, but I wanted to I wanted to maybe do a little bit of market research here And hear from folks a little bit What do you think when you hear podcast or a video podcast or vlog? and Or is it a show? Or or what? So what would make you click a link that says hey, there's some really Cool change the world kind of stuff here or when you're telling your friend. Hey There's this cool new show. I'm listening to or watching or just how do you how do you say that to your friend? How do you know what what words do you use? Would you be interested in such a thing? Who do you know who would be interested in such a thing? Our class please during my still employed period of life, you know when I was traveling in in LA traffic I used to listen to You know podcasts all the time. I mean I had a certain To my big embarrassment. I was listening to wash limbo for some period of my Life that I rather have put behind me successfully, right? But uh, yeah I mean, I think this is really geared towards people who Who are sitting in in traffic or who would travel in cars? Absolutely absolutely There's plenty of occasions Great question. Pete other anybody else with answers for it. Like would you be interested? What would you call it? How would you describe it to your friends? That's so funny gil. I look around and your avatar picture has your hand up So so pretty often I look around. I'm like, oh gil must have his hand. It's like, gosh, it's it's his avatar That's not me asking for recognition. That's me casting spells. Oh, oh You It renew the word I like it um sassy Yeah, so I'm focused more on the part of the show that will be um Approachable for the non-tech people. I don't even want to use the word muggles anymore because it's The meaning well, I didn't really know what it meant, but other people say it's demeaning. So Anyway, um, it's a lot better than sheeple Absolutely, but yeah, anyway Let's just say the non-tech audience um I like the idea of video um because you feel like you know the people And that makes a very big difference From being one of those people I can tell you it makes a very big difference um, the only podcast that I ever listened to was it was it was um I was a call it was like a truth and justice kind of it was like a crowd sourcing Where you actually worked as the investigator. So again I was totally part of it. I would write in questions. We would examine the evidence So I'm really when it comes to dealing with Whatever we have to come up with a better name for that group of people that are right now wasting time on facebook I think being able to see the people and to feel like you know them I mean, there's a reason that reality tv is so popular even though I don't particularly care for it either. There are good Parts to it or pieces to it that we would want to replicate because they're successful Um a couple things just riffing on what you said Stacy one is it would be really really fun to do An episode or several episodes of pretending to be a detective show Like have a little noir intro music Go about this like a police procedural Or something like that it just would be really fun and anybody who feels like Anybody who feels like like leading us through that and framing it and and produce helping produce it Please like come on down And then and then my own my own approach is that The people who are sitting like why you know, netflix or chill or or playing the nintendo all the time are in my head sort of justifiably angry and distracted citizens. They're like they're they're Most people have some are smart in some way that that we that we seldom see And a lot of people are doing what we think of as very time-wasteful things right now in part because The world seems to be cataclysmic and engaging doesn't seem to help And might as well just sit here and go back on fortnight and play another couple rounds And my buddies are there and like it's my social circle and that's where we meet Right, so so for example, and I don't I don't play any fortnight, but um Yeah, the podcast thing is really interesting because it seems like there's a big appetite for long form audio Um, I listen to very few podcasts. I don't have the time to sit and listen to plain audio But I know a lot of people who are listening to a lot of audio and a small side note also to what you just said stacy I'm a huge fan of plain audio because Video because right now I'm kind of looking at you all and at my own image on the screen and you can tell I'm not looking in the lens Right, which means I'm not actually making eye contact with you which the human brain is not that crazy about We really like eye contact and we and we and we have very good ability to discern when somebody's not looking at us In fact, if you're standing in front of somebody you can tell if they're looking at the tip of your nose or in your eyes Like like we're really really good at that And if you have only high quality audio You can whisper And be closer than you can get personally Like we have a circle of personal space and you have to stand sort of pretty far away But with high quality audio you can go you can turn the volume way down and it gets very intimate And the human voice contains a tremendous amount of emotional valence so Plain audio and when I did a podcast for nine years called the yi tan technology call A couple of you might have been on some of those episodes But but I I really like simple high quality audio But alas this brain thing that I do is completely visual And trying to figure out how that works Center cam is a podcasting service or what is center cam? Center cam is a High high definition camera on a flexible stalk you clip it to the top of your computer. Let me let me go video Oh, I saw an ad for it. You basically I got it through indiegogo or something of that it puts it puts a camera Right in the middle of your screen So you can be making straight on camera and be looking straight on screen and it gives the impression Pretty close of that you're making direct eye contact with your audience interesting I saw I saw a long ago. Uh, I don't know if this was proposed or ever made it to market Uh, a laptop. I think it was a laptop that had two cameras mounted at the opposite ends of the bezel So imagine two cameras at the edges out here And it was basically it was basically sending out one image that it was averaging from the two So that it effectively was was catching the middle Of where you were viewing which is kind of interesting To embed a camera in the center of this of the laptop screen, which is obviously technically pretty complicated So center cams trying to do that the two cameras at the end But that's interesting because that would let you do the in effect like a two camera shoot like when You know john stewart Pivots from looking at the camera turns to the other side of the desk You could do you could sort of sort of also do stereoscopic There's a whole bunch of sort of interesting things you could do with two two cameras separated a little bit Parallax of different kinds and that's I've seen so far because I've done too many podcasts where I'm you know, I When I look when I look at the recording later, you know video cast recording later. It looks like I'm looking up all the time And not you know, you know It yeah, it looks like I'm doing this all time instead of writing all the time. That's what I think I'm doing So right and I don't know if everybody knows but when you're in gallery view You can drag the little boxes around as long as nobody has their hand up When when someone when anyone has their hand up you can't do this But normally like right now you could drag one of our little boxes and put it and what I try to do is whoever speaking I drag them up as close to the camera as possible so that it looks like I'm looking as close to the camera as I can Right, that's just a really tiny sort of thing to do because otherwise, you know Right now, Tony is in the lower left of my screen and if I'm watching Tony while answering him You can tell I ain't looking like up at the camera, right? And then any way to defeat the hand raised blocking of that? I'm not as far as I know You have a lot of hands up all the time Yeah, some some places use the hand all the time and some places not so much A very tiny side note about Parallax and all this kind of stuff back from my days as a tech analyst One of the one of the 4 000 odd companies that pitched me had a hardware Tool which was basically a flat panel display And so I'm going to describe it in a in a probably the wrong way But imagine that you had a flat panelist grade that was that consisted of a series of fiber optic cables That that were all lined up, you know behind the thing that had notches in them And you would shine a light down each fiber optic cable that would bounce light out at you at each of the notches And the right, you know, you sort of coordinated so that the right kind of light came through each of the notch Each little notch would form a pixel Except at the other end of the of the fiber optic cables you had detectors So the entire screen was also a camera The entire screen was a camera and they only had fuzzy black and white images Capable like like they were really early in the technology. They they couldn't do like a regular camera But they were working on it and then they disappeared They just vanished from view and either they simply went bust or they got classified and basically taken away into You know department of defense or or wherever else because what a what a clever idea Like a flat panel display that you cannot tell is a camera Despite the fact that cameras have now gotten so teeny that they're almost imperceptible It's still a really interesting thing and and you could then totally get rid of the the parallax problem Because you could move that attention around Anyway, back to our regular show That's what I was gonna say Oh, no, no two things Um, can't you have a video but just separate it and have an audio and a video because I mean I'm hypothesizing that this might might just be for less tech minded people But somebody like me part of what drives me to watch something is I want to see everybody's expression as they're speaking That's really important to me So I I I've grown to really like our little faces and cubes our little Brady Bunch our little Brady Bunch arrangement So I'm with you and there's a bunch of people who just really want to hear the audio because they're only going to get to Listen to it in the car or whatever and they don't want the visual distraction And and the reason I'm saying let's for weaving the world Let's stand up a video podcast and an audio podcast Is only because I get three files or sometimes four files from zoom all the time one of which is the full audio It shouldn't be simple enough to edit that and Hand it over to anchor fm and hit a couple buttons and have that show up in the podcast stream as a full fledged actual podcast So I don't I don't think it's a lot of extra effort for us to generate the other medium and in so doing Let more people listen, you know build, you know Make it available to people who have a different set of preferences about how to engage with media Yeah, I mean there are lots of times that I'll just listen to like a zoom call that I missed I don't need to see everybody because I know who you are But if I'm watching somebody like a speaker and I'm trying to evaluate do I trust them? What do I think are they full of are they full of crap? I want to see their face and I also want to see the expression of the other expert who I might trust Matt gives me some insight into If I'm missing something or should I be looking more closely? Yeah, other people's body language and expressions say a lot when somebody when one person's speaking and everybody else is like That you're like, oh, okay. That didn't go over well. Go ahead. Great I was just thinking that if the the verbal content the points being made the Presentation performance is engaging enough Then I'm the audio is the the most salient Part of the content and the video then becomes a a bonus And I'm kind of I'm kind of in that school as well Craig It's just that I use this weird brain-mind-mappy thing Which you lose so much when you can't see what I'm mapping because because to me like the story told over the map is really interesting in combination Which which also means which also means to me that Maybe sometimes and I've done this a bunch. I've done a bunch of screencasts Where it's just my voice over and on screen what you see is either my my brain or some images Illustrating the points I'm trying to make and I'm trying to tell a story that way That works fine. And it's only my voice like, you know, no talking head or I make a tiny, you know, picture in picture talking had just me small But I'm a big fan of the power of plain voice But then there's this there's this big video angle to it and and and I'm thinking, you know In modern baseball technology, they now have, you know, if you sign up for the mlb app You get to pick which cameras you look at Because there's a whole bunch of feed live feeds coming off the field and a good app now Will let you switch will let you be your own tv show producer so that you can go look at the dugout And you can go look at the bullpen and you can go, you know, whatever I'm just kind of making that up because I'm not a huge huge baseball fan but but what if as we As we feed the big fungus together, what if we can then like if my brain were on its own display Right in its own window and you could tune into it or not tune into it when you wanted to and go look around and see What's what's happening that that gets it and if and if other people using rome were screen sharing as well Pete experimented with many cam or one of the virtual cams a while ago And he had his notes on as the as the zoom background behind him, which is possible My machine starts to like huff puff and and sweat really hard if I try to do that So not doing that until I get one of the new max, but I'm really interested in that because You know, right now I've got monsters ink Lobby behind me, but it might be really interesting to just have what's what's in my brain behind me And it would be more interesting if somebody could eliminate my my face from in front of it If they actually wanted to go look at it And it would be even more interesting if they could at any moment sort of wander off What I'm doing and just go be in the normal brain artifact So that they could go from You know, whatever it is I happen to be doing in the brain that they're just watching To actually a soup. Okay. I just want to go off-roading from here or other features I want to bookmark what we're looking at right here because I want to come back to it later And remind me in two days to come visit here. That could be a feature Right and if we had an open environment and people were thinking about these things and and the environment allowed for some programmability like this The things I'm talking about aren't that hard So so I think that as a thought experiment But not as this first rev like a twitch TV show that is on a lot That has multi cameras and multi multi people participating is pretty interesting So gill is saying let's test feed the big fungus on various desired audiences You mean test market the phrase or you mean the show and the other sort of stuff the phrase I hear that you have a lot of juice for that name I'm not sure it's going to work. Maybe you know, and that's just me I'm any close one just like you to discard what I say But it might be worth trying it out in the world to see how it lands And the first metaphor I started with you may have been in those conversations was the big quilt Because weaving and the quilt is much more, you know, there's actually not too much mixing of metaphors Although you're probably so a quilt. You probably don't weave a quilt, but still we're in the textile realm at least You know fungus there is that it's alive and I think we want something that's alive. Yes. It's alive. Exactly and Oh, cool And so The fungus Picture it does have some problems. I mean you mushrooms you Feed them shit and keep them in the dark. You know, yes, perfect, right? Is that perfect that what's been happening to us? Perhaps the humor has to be promoted in I really like that I really like that. It's like that's how we've been treated as citizens and it's about time. We actually shine a light on that And and and like work on it together and you know visibly in public, but you're totally right No, the self mockery is good though craig and like with muggles You know, if it's it's it's bad if you if you're looking down on somebody if it's you know, self acknowledgement It can be fun and so fungus. Yes in the dark eating shit and so forth But yet this vast Network of life out of view of all of us with biomass greater than probably anything else, right? Bigger than bigger than the bacterial biomass, which is bigger than us So it's it's It's this critically important invisible To bring into awareness. I love the analogy of the mycelium and it's alive Feeding everything underlying everything and so the woodwind web How fungus works all that and and the woodwind web is lovely because one of the one of the metaphors involved in the woodwind web and uh, hold on Let me just go to a thought here while i'm saying this just because One of the lovely metaphors from the wood wide web So I created a thought called useful nature metaphors. So i'm like, hey, we've cut our ants cuckoos The upward spiral estuaries soil fertility horses You know, i'm sort of collecting up Nature metaphors are like one of the really useful ones from the wood wide web is that Trees can't really metabolize minerals fungi do so there's this exchange happening underground where fungi and trees are swapping sugars for For other kinds of things that fungi are really good at cracking out of soil and rocks But that's like wonderful like an exchange of nutrients In the fertile healthy soil is a fantastic metaphor For where we're trying to go and i'm trying i'm trying to work in that space. I'm trying to say And and this ties back to Let me just go back this ties back to Delos and Gattari basically talking about rhizomes and a bunch of other stuff in the post-modern era so So here's post structuralists talking about A thousand plateaus and how we're going to have rhizomal Knowledge and other kinds of things. I have that under visions that have inspired builders of global brains this this rhizome thing um Yes, like totally get it. Here's the Magister Ludi the glass bead game dug angle bart's mother ball demos Indra's net which comes out of hindu mythology Uh, the noosphere which is tile hard to shardan A veneva, I don't I does anybody know definitively how to pronounce his first name Is it venevar or venevar or something different? I'm sort of venevar, but I don't know I thought but I heard somebody pronounce it Venevar sounding like they knew what they were doing Anyway, so here's the noosphere right which is tile hard to shardan I have all of that under global unity because I'm collecting these things As we step into this world trying to make sense of the world together because because I think we're working in the spirit of all these visions And some of them motivated some of us And there's there's you know, there's also sort of indigenous cosmologies that that have these kinds of relationships That I think are inspiring here as well That are that are actually like really descriptive. So if you go to the kichwa in the aimata world there's a There's a whole bunch of language around relationships reciprocity stewardship All of those kinds of things that are just baked right into the fundamental principles of how they operate as a society Pretty cool Right and so and so I think one of the stops on the weaving the world tour Is probably my friend marty spiegelman Or someone else or mark if you know people we should we should talk to as well To to bring in some of that knowledge I I know for sure that one of the people I want to talk to is tyson yung caporta Who wrote sam talk and who's who's like a genius communicator? He understands how the world of business and capitalism works and understands how the world of Aboriginal culture works and he's really good at drawing distinctions sort of Between those things and connections. So I think those are really really juicy places to go visit I know tamsin and I have not read teeming gill. Um, but I think it's also really interesting and useful. It belongs in there So van bar van ver Reading that I think it's van nevar van evo Any is long. Oh the e didn't show up because there's a question mark where the knee is you have to you have to read the The sentence above the Dictionary. Oh, okay. Sorry Any he insisted on being called ban because nobody could ever figure that out cool It's a long knee the nevar. Okay good. Hey Well according to roe hit according to rizkin, which is good for me. I like it a lot Roe hit usually knows what he's talking about I like it a lot. Thank you so much Um So other thoughts other thoughts about sort of test marketing the idea. What would you call it to your friends? What is this thing? And and also so there's a couple different. What is this things? One of them is is this a video podcast or a blog or a like What do we call these objects that that are mostly like video? Is it a webcast is it a web show don't know so that's one question But then the other question is is this a knowledge? Gardening adventure. Is this a like like what is the category of thing that we're doing here? Is this a collaborative sense making exercise? Is this a common sense discussion with memory? Is this a memory mining? Expedition is this like I could think of 15 things off the top of my head that that would be interesting ways of talking about Um what this is And I'd love to know which ones are sticky or exciting So you're muted Thank you To me it's Sensing what people are thinking about that might be new or old I mean the new part is the only part of what you just said that that I was like A lot of this is that we used to know how to do this and we basically stomped on it and destroyed it And we need to kind of recover some of that and figure figure it out the the new might be in Bringing into awareness connecting it into the rest of how the world works and what goes on One of the more interesting thoughts in my brain is How do we blend the best of the old and the new? Well, there's the conversation for democracy. That's one thing But I'm really pointing to something else and that is just trying to sense Maybe it's back to the mushroom thing what mushrooms are poking through the surface That's like I have my eyes and my ears and my fingers on all of you Trying to sense is something about to emerge here that has never emerged before So a thinker with an idea that shows up in a book or whatever else is just like the fruiting body of a Of a mushroom popping out of the soil. That's a very I hadn't actually sort of gotten there But but that that works really really nicely um I like that a lot anyone else want to riff on that uh, you can also What what has uh captured the imagination of of a younger generation in particular Is the ability of trees to communicate with one another via a fungus underground network So if you have an image for example, where you take two trees And you and and you show underground how they're being connected through these funky Wood systems that that may depict, you know, what you're trying to explain very much so that's that's totally an important piece of the wood wide web What we're gleaning from nature about how that actually works and then metaphorically like all the stuff that's happening Craig you want to jump in I found myself wondering if this doesn't also have an aspect um in that I'm sure that people older than most of us. I mean we've had tv since we were kids, right? and tv is a pacifier. I'm sure people were much more active So the there were grassroots movements Grass another piece of that came up. Yeah, um, we're undoubtedly more active large and small they were There must have been a far greater proliferation and action At grassroots level among people between people before we were pacified by by television and That kind of sit and receive it in entertainment and then with the advent of the internet Have we lost some of our ability to actually be creative and generative you just share it on facebook See what happens You know and move on so perhaps this is uh This idea has a an element of resurgence or regeneration of human organic connectivity rather than this digital that's all the all the craze nowadays Love love all of that and and agree entirely. Um, and And my intention is to try to revitalize education and journalism and science and politics and all those kinds of things by Going into those territories and re-exploring them re-examining them and maybe Doing some good work and if people want to come in and play play by our side In some way, I think it gets really useful in really interesting ways and and and a Big piece of this is an in-your-face to the over protection of intellectual property, which is the world that we live in today It's like we've locked away all the ideas because we feel like people need to meter them out And what if we actually shared the ideas and tried to then then implement them and and a piece of this A piece of this that's stuck in my head and I and I want to experiment with more Is that implementation piece is like how do I take a bit of wisdom and make it easier to use? How do I leave it at hand as guidance? How do I put it in the how-to video instead of in a chapter in a book? How do I Like like how do we all Make everything we know that we think is smart More useful in the world more more immediately applicable Is that is it am I making any point here between the difference of great idea? But it's in a chapter in a book you have to buy and read versus idea made more useful in the world Does that does that work or should I explain it more Doug you're muted again This might be just off the point but Well, I have to come back Lost the thought That's all right. Yeah, unmute yourself when you when you've got it back So anybody else is the point I'm trying to make clear or muddled like And I use the example of the pattern language pattern one two four all Which is like a smart pattern and if you're a facilitator you know about it and you know how to implement it But if you're not a facilitator you won't know of its existence and you won't be able to use it But it might improve your meetings So how do we actually build something that lets you click a couple buttons and then use this more Interesting sophisticated process. That's that's good for group process. Go ahead Doug Okay It seems to me that when society is coming together and there's a new development that's positive Linking any two things is a contribution When things are falling apart any linking that you make is likely to also fall apart So it's demotivating to make the links And I think we're in a time when we're still in a process of decay of the old culture And it makes it very hard to bring things together Because we have the sense that they're going to be pulled apart by by circumstances um Yes, and I think an important piece of this and and uh, Pete and I and a couple of other OGMers were on a call a couple days ago with the internet archive about the uh, and I learned a new word fixity Which is sort of like how permanent is anything and as we move into distributed stores like ipfs The interplanetary file system Like how do you know that something's actually even going to be there later or the or do the links all fall apart? Do we just get long-term link rot and all this just goes away? And so I think that that's an interesting piece of the question and and I think collaborating with the internet archive Which we might end up doing more of Might be one really good way To add years to the lifespan or use of the lifespan of what we're doing Because there's there's a scenario in which anthropologists 300 years from now don't know crap about what happened during this time despite all the cameras and microphones We had in our homes because all this data just got ruined through an emp or through bad data migration or through whatever There's a world in which anthropologists have nothing to dig on There's another world in which there are no anthropologists because we wiped ourselves out We don't want to talk about that But but but but this could this could be the dark hole of data or it could be the the motherload of diamonds Uh, depending on how we handle this and what we do go ahead Doug well, um I do think it's important to sense what's the this nature of the time in which we're trying to act Uh, it conditions what we do and whether it's going to be successful Agreed and the times are different depending what country you're in depending where you are in society like The times are like They're not uniform, right? So if we were if we were trying to do this in china right now I'd be like, hey, let's just put on a cooking show That I would totally not be trying any of this shit in china Like it wouldn't work. Uh, we would be we would be shut down quickly. Uh, gil go ahead Oh To Doug's comment what makes this an interesting and challenging time is that both of those processes are happening at the same time New things are being born things are falling apart. So you can't play one game. You have to play both games and probably a third one Which I guess is what we're trying to do here. Yep Yep, and we're trying to invite in other people who have other ideas about how to go about doing this Um, and then then we're trying to figure out how to have our perspective and thoughts and resources meet theirs in fruitful ways But I just had one thing about the the living between worlds that came across Montana on gromshee the dying revolutionary of what a hundred years or so ago And gromshee said the old world Approximately the old world is dying And the new one is struggling to be to be born in between is the time of monsters And I listen to monsters in the dual sense of both, you know Evil destructive terrifying creatures, but also, you know mysterious primal forces that we don't grasp I will point to my background here for just a second and say that not all monsters are bad. Yeah You know, they get written into history as the bad guys, but but what if what if we could enjoy the fungi and the monsters? Uh, and kind of tame them and and enter a dance somehow And and I think the gromshee hood is like right on I think that there's this moment of punctuated equilibrium. That's chaotic um, but but you know the point of monsters ink is that All these monsters that are giving children nightmares can actually like shift around and do good in the world other thoughts um, it seems my check-in took like the whole first hour, so I'd love to go around and Do some check-ins if we want to hang out for the the next 30 minutes I'd love to do that, but this has been totally generative and fun And useful, so I really I really thank you Um So if you want to experiment with this on your friends like, you know Uh, try out some of the freezes or ask them. Hey, what do you call like a show? What do you call one of these modern and over the you know over the top shows? Like over the top is a is a tv industry term because it means you're bypassing regular Uh tv networks and the cable tv system So ott is kind of its own little acronym, but only for only for execs in that business Or people in that business I don't think and I don't think it's a very useful metaphor But you know, we're in a world where media is being deconstructed and reconstructed and it's breaking up and fanning out again Every different every form of medium Is is is having this happen? You know, right if you like watching movies for example in tv shows You are currently trying to figure out exactly how many of these networks are you going to subscribe to separately now? Right, it's kind of nuts so um, okay, so so let's um We can leave that behind uh, and uh, Doug do you want to check in? Maybe we go, uh, Doug Craig Stacey Well, I don't know if I have much Of coherence for a check in but I think that You know as a species we have really goofed up In our choice of technologies and they're killing us And there's a big story to tell there but it's in the context of The situation is so dire That it's hard to know exactly how to proceed So when I come to a conversation like this, I'm looking for clues as to how to proceed and There's some but it's it's a little thin I'm agreed and And I think the I think the best spirit in which to proceed is one of fun and humor Because otherwise the situation is so goddamn dire that we're just all going to get depressed and need to find counselors And tap out on our energy to do this So so stacey the the the focus you have on on games and play And and that kind of thing I like I like a lot and I think that that being sort of tongue-in-cheek about this is good but I also Doug when I talk about making things practical and usable I'm I'm talking a lot about what you're what you just said is like, okay, so what what do we do next? And where can I put in some effort myself and how does that work? And we don't we don't we don't have that infrastructure and we don't we're not making those points at this point So we have a thin We have a thin conversation where we're waving our hands a lot But it would be really nice if it were better instrumented toward usefulness So I'm I'm disagreeing with the thing about Jokes and humor now you started the session today with let's be happy And I I actually would prefer I think to be in a conversation now with Okay, it's pretty clear. We're all going to die. It just isn't quite clear yet. How And what do we do with that? That's a conversation that I'd like to have You know, so Gail Rinpoche in his book the Tibetan book of living and dying said there are only two things that we know for certain In this world when we serve paraphrase a new day. He said one is that we will die And the other is that we don't know when So you're speaking about it in the midst of this crisis, but that's also the human condition So I think we can you know I think it's possible to face that with grimness and with grief and with love and with humor All of them not leaving out any of them, but you know, maybe that's just the way that I cope with this And and I'm also not suggesting we turn this into a sitcom Or trivialize the situation. I'm just saying that learning working and playing can be combined In a really fruitful way and when we separate them and try to like Silo them. It doesn't really help humans And that this can be a sort of a journey that where we're doing all all those things and taking things very seriously but But I fear being Serious all the time because these are serious issues and you need to be serious about the serious issues. That's so I don't know. I think that I think the way we move forward together is by like enjoying being with one another So Doug what like I'm hearing The the moment is calling for a lot more seriousness than anybody's giving it Right and somebody who was it Was it Stacy? Somebody was just telling me that Greta Thunberg's last speech Was like she started quoting all the buzz phrases, you know, net zero blah blah blah blah blah and she started going through all the different sort of buzz phrases that groups of Reasonably good intent are coming up with to say this is our this is what we're doing to work on climate change And and she was basically dismissing all of them. I think I haven't heard her talk And probably is right like like this isn't going to get us there She wasn't dismissing the impulse as she was dismissing the talk in the face of the numbers going in the wrong direction, right? Like like There's not even there's only one country in the world that's on track For their climate commitments. It's the gambia who most people have never even heard of. There are hardly any companies that are on track So I think that's her point is that you know talk without action is bullshit She's not saying the talk is I don't think she's saying the talk Yeah, talk is one of the ways you get to action, right? Talk is a substitute for action. But as long as it's just talk, it's not interesting and one of the things I think that characterizes right now Is that there's no plan for what action could actually look like what action by who? How do you stop fossil fuels stop the oil companies from selling this stuff? Well, there's no plan for how to do that So you get projects Like let's cut cut everything by the year 2035 But there's no ideas to what to do tomorrow or the rest of this year Doug Doug with respect I strongly disagree. There are lots of plans. I built one of them I know friends of mine who built others of them at city level and corporate level and policy level. They're not being implemented Okay, that's what I mean by action. I don't mean there's lots of policy, but no action Well, there's lots of action, but there's also lots of barriers And you know, you've got you've got the political control the fossil fuel industry has in this country Which means you can't pass legislation that needs to pass the new stuff. So you need to have political action et cetera, you know, we could this is this is a whole calling itself So I would not say there's no action. I say the action is failing The action is not serious enough. It's not taking on core issues enough It's not taking on structural issues enough, but you know, yeah So I I'm agreeing and disagreeing with you. I think it's I think it's not helpful to say there's no action But the action is either not effective enough not being implemented enough or not aimed at the critical levers There's there's there's missing pieces in it And back to Greta, you know, um on any objective measure we're failing and failing drastically and are headed for deep lot of trouble There's a world of hurt coming for lots and lots of people and we got a taste of it this past year through extreme climate events and other sort and forest fires And a bunch of other stuff and this is just going this is just going to get amplified. That's just starting. Yeah, it's just starting and you know Little towns in Germany where 400 year old homes were washed down river Because nobody expected a flash flood there and oh look, you know, prosperous little towns in the middle of germany Places that have had three 500 year floods in five years Well, it's it's Pete Buttigieg's magical answer To the question about climate change. He's like i'm the mayor of a small town in indiana I've only been mayor for like six years in my tenure. We've had two 500 year floods I'm either the unluckiest mayor in the world or there's something really different going on and i'm like that was just crystalline So can I check in off of that? Please? I've said this before but this sort of raises it in the frame for me. I am um I'm getting more requests to speak lightly and they are ranging from A keynote to a bunch of businesses in moscow next month. We're just sort of stepping into the whole sustainability game And we're wondering what what how do we think about this and what do we do? And a workshop at sustainable brands next month, which is You know companies that have been in the game for a long time And what we're doing there is kind of a sustainability smackdown It's like you know seasoned professional saying hello folks and potential clients everything you're doing is bullshit I'm sort of hovering between I'm getting requests from both ends folks Who are just realizing there's something going on and I need to deal with this and folks who are hard at work sometimes You know just trying to get by and look good enough and sometimes really trying to do something and are woefully inadequate So I'm trying to speak into those two realms Like this is a version of what you and I just talked about and it's very challenging to figure out Um, I can stand here and just sort of see what shows up or I can go out and say Here's what I want to offer To particular potential audiences and clientele's and I'm challenged trying to figure out how to stand in that In the dichotomy of the of the between worlds Of the old world dying new world being born living with monsters living with massively different listening with you know Big evil forces arrayed against us and massive ignorance arrayed against us. So I'm sort of living there and at a very practical practical level I Last night before I went to bed. I looked at the list that I built of the books that I want to write and You know, I've got I got 15 books in mind, but I've got probably what five to 15 working years left in me So I get to I have to choose what are the two or three or four that I'm going to write over the next decade or two Which one I'm going to do now And so I'm in a bit of overwhelm Um Kind of in a good way. It's like it's an it's an opportunity filled overwhelm but pretty confusing to know Where are the most useful steps to make that will both have an impact in the world? And provide some sort of sustaining revenue flow to Jane and me So that's my check up. So two things about what you just said trigger for me one of them is I it's fascinating at the end here that what you're thinking about is books That the unit of measure for getting your wisdom in the world is The book can I I'll put books in quotes, but keep going Okay, and I'm really really really really interested in deconstructing that So that what you leave in the world are artifacts that are more useful than books are that's what I mean Thank you that could be woven together and press a button and they could be extruded As a book and you could be like hey look there's a label on this we made pretty cover art And it's a book but actually the thing online is alive and connected and will tell you where to go and And put your life energy and all of that so so that the book is just a souvenir artifact Out of your thinking so so that seems a lot juicier to me then then I if I write three books, you know By the time I die, I will feel happy. I love it. I love it. I got two requests One is I would request a longer conversation with you about this To kind of think together because it's similar what you're doing in a different way And second, uh, I I requested all of you I I I think I need a producer partner person Who can help me do that who is you know facile with the technology Has a grasp of a multi-dimensional multi multimedia strategies and can work with me to build something Not work for and I don't I don't want like a tech working for me to do what I want a partner I'll create something like that together. So if people have ideas or ways to point me, I would love that So maybe we're describing a new job category in the universe because april just wrote her book flux She worked with a really really good book editor steam pierce ante at barrett kehler He was fantastic and his legendary and his interactions with her I watched as as like the book outlined just the book proposal got better the book outline got better And by the time they were like, okay And let's let's sign little contract and you write a book with us by the time they got there She just had to sit down and write was what was in the outline because it was his the interactions were so fruitful I think pardon. Is he retired? He's he's semi-retarded takes two or three books a year. She was one of them Um, it just worked out really beautifully. Um, I think what we're talking about is the idea doula of the next century Yeah, I think there's a I think there's a job category that doesn't exist yet Of stewards of ideas who curate them into the shared medium that we're trying to stand up here Whatever the hell it winds up being called The big it won't be called the big fungus. I have a long track record of snuffling in the right areas and not picking the right name Right. I wrote an issue of esters newsletter called. What's a zine? Borrowing the word zine from small circulation pubs what I described in the issue was what turns out to be a Weblog and then pete can pete mere holds a different pete Names that hey, it's a we blog. Let's call it a weblog and that sticks awesome But but but it was it's roughly the same thing so I think we're going to have people helping other people not just birth the idea But put the idea in the world in a useful practical woven way Yep, yep And that is a different and it requires hyper literacy hypertextual literacy It requires a bunch of skills that we that are right now kind of in different silos And I think a piece of this voyage Is to figure out what is that role and to get people in that role and start getting them connected to people like you and Other people in the world who want to get ideas out of their heads into books So i'm looking for either somebody who does that already or somebody who wants to become that person Yes, bingo to create that and with your permission jerry i'm going to grab out of the out of the recording I'm going to grab i'm going to transcribe this section and turn that into a quest and post that live in the world If that's okay with you, I would be thrilled that sounds wonderful I love that and then i'll loop you in and then one more thing I wanted to add before I turn the floor over repeat, which is And this goes to you're working with people like old hands at sustainability trying to figure out what to do and say Hi to koan for me, please Oh, when you go to sp and then the newbies that are just only virtual. How do we do this? So maybe you're the bear of a bearer of the mother of the scoby of the starter right and and what's happening with the experienced hands Is they're busy like tending the starter and make refining refining the yeasts purifying it trying to figure out How do we go about doing this critiquing what's happened? And with luck with luck coming up with new hybrid versions and better better starter And then what you're doing when you're traveling back and talking to the newbies is you're taking some of that starter Because you're at the leading edge of that and taking it back to the new communities and dropping that starter in there And if you can if you can modify your approach with the newbies and think of it as starter Like how do I get them moving on these ideas in a way that's contagious infectious, nutritive You know will sort of grow through the enterprise and not kill them like cordyceps But rather feed them like the fungus in the in the anthill Then they're on their way and they can start joining us on the journey To fix all this shit because the shit needs fixing does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Thanks So you're kind of a butterfly or a connector or a bridge or a bearer. Is this really interesting? book You know, I've always thought of I've always thought of pollinator as a kind of you know identifying reference for myself Butterfly or bumblebee or so forth, but the notion of the mother the war to the starter yeast It's a very rich and interesting way to go with that story Thank you There's a really really interesting. Oh good. Uh, let me screen share it There's a really interesting book called a story waiting to pierce you mongolia, tibet and the destiny of the western world By peter kingsley and He talks about a character called avarice skywalker also known as avarice the hyperborian. He has a wikipedia page Um, he talks about how greek myths have eastern sources and how hyperboria means The land beyond the north wind and how a bearer skywalker travels the world with an arrow which he brings to Pythagoras And how greek wisdom is seeded by the mongolians and and traditions that come out of the step and i'm like i'm like holy crap and And it may or may not be true I don't know I do know that I've been on the step in mongolia and at one moment I was staying in front of a stupa which was basically a big pile of rocks with with flags all around it and a bunch of little spinning Prayer wheels and other kinds of things sort of just left by by passersby And I felt like I was standing at the umbilicus of the world I absolutely had this feeling like holy crap. There's nobody there was nobody else around I was like it's just us just april me. I'm like i'm standing on the umbilicus of the world somehow I just had that that total instinct anyway Maybe you're a version of a bearer springing bearing the gold arrow And that that's a different sort of metaphor for the starter or whatever, but I think it's a really important mission Uh, sorry for way too long a preamble peep, but the floor is yours Thank you jerry. Thank you gill Real quick gill I I have a AIDS technical solution for publishing Interactive stuff and also extruding books and PDFs and things like that It's around massive wiki and i'm helping other people do that It's it's not the only way to do it, but it's one one way to do it It's actually there's a an interesting thing right now In discussion with one of those folks who wants to publish a big thing a big interactive thing We're looking at the difference between fed wiki and and massive wiki Um fed wiki is really good at weaving little little chunks of information together among multiple people massive wiki I hope is going to be good at making information kind of replicate a lot and it it's I I don't I think it's It it's kind of designed to make information replicate a lot more than Even stay coherent necessarily, but I think that's an important thing Because you you massive wiki is kind of replicate and then everybody tweaks them and they don't necessarily connect You know To their source really well. They do connect internally Really well. They have a good sense of history. Anyway a longer story than I wanted to tell Um, I wanted gill. I wanted to talk about your conundrum and your Dilemma and and uncomfortableness or or comfort facing. Um, you know, what do I do? It's more unsettled than uncomfortable Unsettled is a good way to say it the uh A heuristic I've kind of been working on is first of all, um, take care of yourself. Make sure that your efforts to Inform and help the rest of the world are sustainable over the long term And you and your you know, your your people um, but then The the thing that frustrates me is seeing people attack systems at the wrong level and for me the the big thing is that I and I've kind of talked through this before but for me the thing is that The systems that we have are no longer human scale the ones that are causing the big problems And so people get really tempted because they're people they say i'm going to change the minds of you know The leader of the world or i'm going to change the minds of a thousand leaders of the world Or i'm going to change the mind of millions or billions of people in the world And the the problem with that Is that the Hyperscale social structures that we have aren't people So hyper capitalism is not a person. It's not a group of people. It's a structural thing That is that that We are symbiotic with But it it runs with its own own Psychology and sociology and things like that that is not human. Um, so Uh, every time I see somebody going, you know, I'm going to change I'm going to use politics to change a bunch of people mind people's minds Or I'm going to use politics to change the way that we evaluate things It's kind of like politics is kind of like the the really low level of where you need to be working um, and and where we have the most leverage Is figuring out how to Um The way those hyperscale social structures compete with one another and win against one another beat each other up So so my heuristic is look for look for the leverage point and Look at bigger and bigger social structure scale Not at you know, you have to try to like leverage yourself out of human scale Inter interventions into these massive hyper hyper scale social structures I may be missing some thank you, but I may be missing something to hearing a contradiction between Inappropriately intervening at big scale, but working toward big scale I think um standing something you're saying Say that again I'm here you say that we often attack systems at the wrong level like I'm going to transform global capitalism But you also talked about about Being able to build what was your word social scale build social social structures hyper social structures, so the the bad guys in in this cosmology They're they're not bad guys. They're monsters. Um in in both the good and bad senses of the term um, so uh So, you know, we invented multinational corporations in the you know, 1500s to 1600s or something like that When we invented multinational corporations, they seemed like they had a A board of directors and they seemed like they had investors and things like that Um over the course of the last three or 400 years They've kind of gotten out of control and the the rules of the game that google and apple and facebook um And amazon have to play are the rules of competing with other hyperscale social structures Um, it doesn't have a lot to do with I you know in so in my cosmology Uh Even a human at the top even that I saw another thing I think of is sandworms These things are like big sandworms and you have the tiny little person on top of it writing a sandworm so so Jeff Bezos or Or rupert murdoch Is a human And they are doing a good or bad job of writing a sandworm but The problem is that we live in a world of massive monsters these hyperscale social structures If it wasn't rupert murdoch driving his sandworm The hyperscale social structures and the way that we have evolved these massive things which we Coexist with but we have a hard time seeing I think We would have It would have been somebody else in the driver seat We didn't have to have rupert murdoch driving his sandworm to cause the the chaos that rupert murdoch has It's the structures around it that allowed One of those monsters to go crazy and just beat up nations around the world and so You know we it's it's really hard. I think it's hard for me. It's really hard for people to go It's not So much rupert murdoch being a bad driver or being a nasty son of a bitch Um, it's really the fact that we've got this system of these massive things that have a huge amount of investment and a huge amount of power Driving around rampaging. So we've got these golems Except they're not just golem size. They're like, you know, like a thousand x golem size and they're they go around smashing things And they don't we we think that rupert murdoch hates this personally. I you know, I if i'm thinking about rupert murdoch I'm going damn that guy must hate me because he has sucked up my nation a lot Why does he do that? You know, it's it's missing the point when you think of it that way rupert murdoch is just being An idiot. He's a idiot driver on top of a big monster And if it wasn't the monster that developed under him It would have been the monster that developed under some other asshole and you know, it's and and so Why why how? How can we why why did we get these things so big? Why do we let them get so big? How did they get so big without us in control? What are we going to do about the fact that these huge monstrous things rampage around? Well, this this let me bring you back down to the sand Pete because this begs the question of how do we become worm riders? You know, which happens in a couple of different ways one is that you know How do you transform this big thousand x golem system? What what is it that changes those things at that scale? And the other is that in the midst of this you have people like, you know Ray Anderson from interface and paul pulman from unilever who's got a book coming out next month Who emerge out of that monstrosity? And are beacons of something else and you know and sometimes can actually do shit before they get fired by the boards In in some ways the most useful work that I do is one on one with people You know as like executive coach for somebody inside a company Or or what I've occasionally managed to pull off Is an offer that I call thinking partner. I say look, you know about thought leaders forget that How about a thinking partner because you probably never get to think in your job? You know, you certainly can't think with your boss In the same way you can with somebody independent outside. You can't think with your reports the same way When I was when I was an executive Palo Alto one Commiserating with one of the other department heads who said, you know I barely if I can if I kind of have an hour a week to think about what I'm doing. I'm really really lucky I'm mostly just racing to do all the stuff that's in front of me And so For me that that that's a juicy opportunity that I'm trying to cultivate is to get a couple of relationships like that Completely off the record Frank. No bullshit tough love. Let's imagine What do you want for yourself your family your world your company? Whatever it is so And back to Jerry your point I I'm I come out of an era where a book seems like a doorway into that a buddy of mine I just talked with yesterday. He's been named head of sustainability for one of the largest accounting firms in the world And apparently just it came pretty much out of his book somebody got his book and said Let's hire this guy Because we like the voice in that book. No, it doesn't have to be a book. It could be any number of media But it's some kind of provocative messaging mud, you know the the war that Let's something grow that lets an invitation have some jerry So you're already a published author So it's not like you don't have a book the problem is that books have half lives and they basically age out Of the public attention, right? And we have development lives that are too slow for me because I don't want to I don't want to write something now That hits the streets in two years Ingo, um, and but also the book is the modern calling card Yes So so the thing you want to do is get a book write an hbr article And then go go run your business behind those things because those are in fact The kinds of things that get you pulled into different sort of settings where you wear presumably You'd like to be spending your life energy Part of what I said earlier is that do something really interesting and meaningful that as a by-product You can extrude as a as a souvenir times time shot snapshot of a moment in time call the book Yeah, and so I'm not saying you wouldn't make a book in that process but but rather And then the book is is your calling card But rather that the artifact that book is coming from is openly available And is thought about differently than normally we think about books about how books work in the world Yep, because books are really Really clumsy objects in this world. We have not we have done a terrible Miserable job of making the knowledge that's in books actually useful Yeah, um, thank you everybody. I know we're time. This is very juicy and very helpful And I really really appreciate it and would love to follow up with any of you would like to and I remove my request If you know anybody who could partner with me on something like this or even on a piece of it I'm really ready for that so I love your saunty Yeah, yeah, so I love to be in the conversation But also I'm thinking that an important piece of weaving the world and the big fungus moving forward Is trying to figure out what that role is making room for that role Shining a spotlight or at least a candle on that role And seeing who shows up and would like to try to be that role because I I know that there's a piece of that role That I can actually do and then there's a bunch of pieces of that role that I am terrible at and have no business trying to do But but but i'm very interested in sort of what are the hybrid pieces of that role And and can we get a bunch of people doing this and can this be like it would be really fun if there was a Volunt of vista volunteers in service, you know to the world Where people who did this could go out a high schoolers could join this and figure out how to do it and go do it around the world helping us Really fun if ogm could provide the platform that you were just suggesting that I create That you know that tool set that set of capabilities of multi-dimensional quick turnaround dropout artifacts along the way That could be an ogm service for if you look in the in the chat I mentioned a massive tile Which I then I then explained a little bit later, but maybe there's a project to create something that's better than git book Which is like, you know I don't think git book is state of the art anymore But you know using github to publish an open book is an interesting interesting idea What what's better than that? Right and maybe there's there's a if we can break that down into some steps. Maybe there's an interesting way to get there That's cool. Thank you. Um, yeah, this is awesome. Any anyone want to put a bow on today's conversation? I just want to say this was a great conversation I'm really looking forward to the continuing conversation with bentley and hopefully michael will show up because I want to Be able to see how this project Is going to influence or impact the conversations about the commons that we've been having And I'm most excited about the post-production piece of this project Cool. Um, and just so everybody knows we're repurposing the wednesday morning calls Which have been the generative commons calls and we're turning those into Weaving the web operations calls to sort of stand this thing up I'm not sure whether I should keep the 7 a.m. Slot or shift it to 8 And I'm playing with 9 a.m. Wednesdays For the show except I'm realizing pete that steps on your massive wiki calls. I think Wednesday, yeah, yeah, so Used to you do I think each of us is in a mess of them. I think pete is book wall to wall. I don't know So So I wanted to ask you I wanted to ask you if you ever thought about Putting them to an eat some of them to an evening hour The ones you know since we talk about like the socializing component I was just curious because I know some people actually work and can't make these calls Yeah, exactly. Um, and so like a 5 p.m. Slot would be good for east and west coast terrible for europe because Europe would be asleep bad for asia But I think I think is is reasonably good for asia 7 a.m. For me, so yeah, do you get up early? I'm up at 7 every day Okay, if there are people in hong kong or australia, it's even It's even better. It's really nice. That's fine. Okay, so the uk it's the middle of the night, unfortunately We could totally do 5 p.m. For example, that's that's very doable. Yeah I was just wondering how other people felt about that anybody I think you Mike I have a concern about geography So there's a weekly weekly wednesday call at 9 a.m. And a weekly wednesday call at 5 30 p.m. Pacific And so one of them works well for us eu and one of them works well for asia Australia, so you're doing both of those on wednesdays Uh, it's wednesday for wendy in In australia, and it's tuesday for me and then it's tuesday at 5 30 pacific time Yeah, which is for wednesday and then we have one on wednesday, which is for thursday, but it's the middle of the night Yeah, exactly. Okay What fernanda does for his calls he has On the days that he has sessions is there's an 8 a.m. To our session and then the 3 p.m. To our session Essentially the same core content. Obviously the discussion goes in different ways, but that's a accommodated global audience Cool. Um, okay. Let's let's do on this. I I'm totally open to moving things around and making it work for more time zones and all of that kind of thing so Thank you very much. This has been like super productive. Doug thumbs up is for what? Are you unmuting Doug? But gill was just asking you just gave the thumbs up and he was trying to figure out for which thing Hey in general You're muted Doug. Yeah There we go Yeah Anytime we decide that we're not doing now is going to cause some conflicts, but that's okay Cool, we'll work it out We'll work it out Thanks everybody Bye. Bye. That was a great conversation. Thank you. Thank you