 So first, I would like to turn to you, Catherine. You are one of the co-authors of the Global Sustainable Development Report from last year. So in this report, you outlined six entry points and four levels to help implement the SDGs. So how do you think these entry points and levels can help Nordic societies to speed up the implementation of the SDGs? Thank you, Martin. I actually hope very, very much that this will stop, will help us to move from thinking about the individual SDGs. Because if you think about it, there's nothing special about any of the SDGs. We knew in 2012 that we had challenges in all of those boxes. And indeed, we actually had UN agreements for most of them on women, on peace, on water, on climate, on biodiversity, and so on. So what's interesting about the SDGs is the fact that they're brought into a single framework. And that means that it's the interactions between them that are in focus and not the individual SDGs themselves. And in reality, where sustainability happens is in the interface between the goals that make life better for people, that is to say, one, two, three, four, five, six, which is poverty, hunger, health, education, gender equality and access to water and sanitation, and our use of the global resources, which can be boiled down to climate and biodiversity. And it's this tension between the fact that you buy improvement of one, two, three, four, five, six by selling off 13, 14 and 15, which is where we really need to concentrate all of our efforts. And all of the other SDGs can actually be assigned to different tools that we can use to relieve the pressure between the two endpoints here, the two groups of goals. And so by identifying six areas that need transformation, and those areas are about people, they're about the economy and finance system, and about the governance system, they're about food system, energy system, cities and peri-urban areas, and our access to the global resources. If we look at those, how do we use the different SDGs to achieve relevant goals there, make a transformation? I mean, the goals themselves aren't interesting. It's the transformation of these different areas that are interesting. And I think we have to change our thinking entirely around the SDGs. It's not about having a meeting focusing on SDG 14 or whatever. It's about understanding the interactions between them and reducing the negative interactions in them. And in the Nordic countries, in the Northern Europe countries, I mean, we go around and we say we're number one or number two. Sweden and Denmark compete about being number one or two to do the SDGs, when in fact, we're no closer to achieving the SDGs than any developing country. But our challenges aren't on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. They're on 12, 13, 14, 15. In addition to this Global Sustainable Development Report, we also have a paper by by Jeffrey Sachs et al. from last year, the six transformations to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals. And this paper sort of outlines a similar approach in a way, but with transformations instead of entry points. And although there are some differences between these two reports, they have many similarities and essentially try to focus on how to achieve SDGs by reducing the actions into specific areas. So, Jon, I would like to ask you, the subtitle of the Sustainable Development Report is The Future is Now, Science for Achieving a Sustainable Development. So how can science in general and SDS in Northern Europe in particular help to speed up the implementation of the SDGs in the Nordic countries? Thank you for challenging questions, Martin. First of all, reports are quite important. They are definitely a step forward, trying to really define the at least entry points, but in Jeffrey's papers together with colleagues, the actual transformations that we need to go through to reach the Global Goals for Sustainable Development. But having said that, they are quite widely defined, these areas. And if we focus in on the Nordic conditions, it's definitely the case that its reports have, they are described to fit the global needs, I would say. And we have a need to really specify better what the conditions are and what we need to do in the Nordic countries in relation to these transformations. The emphasis on the different entry points need to be really addressed. And so I think we have a lot of work to do to better define the transformation that we need to go through to actually achieve a sustainable development with the goals at 2030 to begin with. So I could see that we in our, with our members, I could see a specific things we could actually do. We could really go through and sort of take the next step from these reports and papers and try to define much better what are the conditions in the Nordic countries with respect to these different aspects. So I could, I haven't talked to you about this, but I could see that we could form interest groups, theme groups across our national borders that are addressed in different aspects of these questions about transformations. Hopefully that could lead to reviews, development and potentially joint research programs in the future. I would really like to see if that could be done. Otherwise, I would say the, this question, as I understand it relates to how we are dealing with the research science at universities and research institutes. And I think that a couple of things we need to think about is that we, we should definitely continue as we do to a great extent, but at the same time, we need to be relevant on the right time scales. So we may need to increase the activities where we define the research question together with the surrounding society, businesses, et cetera. So we have these different methods, co-production, co-creation, methods that we really define the questions together from the beginning. Instead of the scientists starting and then after X number of years come up with a conclusion that may perhaps be valuable. We should be in contact from, from the beginning and through the processes. I think that this is something we need to do more. And it also relates to research policy interactions that, that need to be more efficient. And in general, we need to transfer knowledge much faster. And as sort of final word on this question, we need to break down a few barriers and be better at partnership and working together across different borders. One of the aims of the SDS and networks worldwide is to support the implementation of the SDS, of course, in particular through solution institutes and long-term pathways, as we said. And these long-term pathways demand a well-functioning interface between science and policy, just as you mentioned here, Jan. So I would like to ask Kajsa, Kajsa from the Helsinki Institute of Sustainability Science. And of course, you are allowed to also introduce yourself if you want to. But Kajsa, you have experience in the science policy interface, quite substantial experience. So how do you think the SDS and Northern Europe members can contribute even more to the science policy interactions? OK. Thank you, Martin. And thank you for the opportunity to have a few words here. I'm Kajsa Korotke from University of Helsinki, Helsinki Institute of Sustainability Science, actually the first sustainability science center in our country. And I also work as a program director for three huge research programs on sustainable development funded by the Finnish Academy Strategic Research Council. And all those, the kind of new focus and the aim in those research projects is to produce knowledge which is society-relevant and which kind of they test the new methods of co-creation and co-production knowledge has been really, really interesting past two years. But if we go through the question that you were asking from me, of course, there are very many and different ways and models to work in the science policy interface. You can find a kind of platform models. You can get researchers can get assignments directly from the government, for example, to produce different kind of groups. There are nested activities, like, for example, in our Institute, this kind of science policy activities are inbuilt in our work. There are science panels. Maybe the IPCC is one of the most known and their national ones. Like, we in Finland have a climate panel, which is very, have a very good position in the science advice. And that says that it's written, it has a position, it's written law that it needs to be heard in when the climate decisions are made. And the different dialogue models and so on. And I think it very much depends on the context. It depends on the issue. What works best in which situation, of course. For example, our researchers and also when the researchers get the funding to do research, policy briefs, for example, are required more and more to be one of the outputs of the research, not only the scientific articles, but that you need to produce some policy briefs. And it's, but it's not enough that you produce a policy brief. It's also very important to take care that you organize the event where you discuss those findings with those whom the policy brief is targeted, that we have noticed in our activities that it's really important to end to build very confidential connections and relationships between researchers and decision makers in all of the levels of decision making. For example, we have very fruitful ongoing collaboration with our Institute and the Finnish Prime Minister's office where the National Sustainable Development Coordination is carried out. And it has resulted, started with a very small activities, but it has resulted with many, many interesting initiatives and consultations. And I think that the SDS and members in all the Nordic countries can contribute in many ways in various levels in science policy interactions. It's not only the national level that you easily think that you need to work with the parliament or the ministries. But also many local universities can very effectively work with the provincial or municipality level decision makers. And I think my experience is that the researchers just should be active, that it's usually the people in ministries or people in the municipalities are really pleased if they are contacted by researchers who would like to collaborate with them and provide and also go create new knowledge with them. Thank you, Kessa. I fully agree. And I think that in Finland you have, as I understand it, at least quite good interactions between science and policy. At least I've been visiting some of the events that you talked about, for example. And also the fact that the government is actually the Prime Minister is actually responsible for sustainability in your country in a way. So maybe you have an easier situation than the other Nordic countries to some extent. But I think it's interesting that you bring up these different levels. And we also have the level of the Nordic council ministers. I mean the Nordic level here that we could also think about. Universities, of course, also have the important task of providing high quality education, including education in sustainable development. And I think this is a very important task for SDS in Northern Europe. It is to stimulate the development where all our university students in our countries graduate with a good knowledge in sustainable development. So, Anik, you are the vice-rector of NTNU in Ålesund. And in your opinion, how should universities organize the education in sustainable development to ensure that our students graduate with good knowledge in this area? Should it, for example, be in the form of a mandatory course in sustainable development? Or should we rather try to integrate sustainable development throughout all programs and into courses in a more integrated way? What is your view on this, Anik? Yes, thank you. Thank you for the question. And I also want to introduce myself very briefly. I'm a professor in sustainability. We focus on environmental management and life cycle assessment. And NTNU has an overall program on sustainability. And until 2017, I was the director of this program before I became the vice-rector at the campus we have in Ålesund. Ålesund is in the west coast of Norway. And since then, the NTNU merged with the university colleges in 2017. And NTNU in Ålesund is now what we say the most industry integrated the campus of NTNU. So this is a bit of the background when I try to answer your question. And for young students, the SDGs are visible symbols of what they should consider in the knowledge building on sustainable development. However, I think it's important to single out what is most important for their own field of studies. Today, all students have examined philosophy and in this course they learn to discuss problems and issues in light of different use of knowledge, science, ethics and politics. And in here, they should also perhaps reflect more on the sustainable development issues and reflect critically on sustainable development and relate this to their own discipline. Here also a reflection on ethical challenges related to their own disciplines could come in much stronger, I think. So, and so today, your second question about the mandatory courses in sustainable development. At NTNU, we do not have specifically mandatory courses besides X-FIL for all students, which is similar for all students. However, we see more often that the sustainable development becomes integrated through all courses where it is relevant. And development becomes integrated throughout. Yes, sorry. And examples can be in studies for the maritime sector. For example, since I mentioned that we are on the coast, our students learn about the impacts of fuel consumption in vessels and how new technologies can be introduced to reduce this. And also they learn how the impact of, for example, fuel combustion has on the environment. And this way, they will learn to reflect the STGs which are relevant. For example, number 14, life under water and number 13 on climate. And this way, they learn how to integrate concern on a natural way into their daily courses. So. And also another example for this, for example, the life cycle thinking, we have the STG number 12. And they learn how to take responsibility along the production value chain and integrate also systems thinking into their models and in their programs. So this is, of course, a great importance for implementation on in their new courses and also how to integrate this into sustainability strategies in firms they will collaborate with. So my conclusion on the questions is that the best effect is to integrate sustainability aspects into the courses and gradually change courses context according to this. However, additional to this, some universities have special programs already and at NTNU, we have had a special program on industrial ecology already for 20 years and educated a few hundred experts already and how to and they are now sitting in important positions in governmental organization and industry. So there are many ways to integrate this. So yeah, I think this is enough for me now. Thank you so much, Nick. I also want to clarify that I think it's good that I didn't mean that there has to be done in one way only, so to speak. And I think it's good that you mentioned that where relevant. So we should we should, of course, allow many different models and modes to do this in some sense. Sometimes it might not be relevant for a student that is studying algebra to learn about some of the SDGs or so. We need, of course, to do this in a sensible way. Thank you so much for this. Is there any of you who want to comment on the first round of questions? So I would like to open up for some short participatory interactions here. Yes, Catherine. Yeah, I'd like to I'd like to violently disagree with you on the last comment that you made. Of course, it's people in who study algebra to understand the challenges of the society they're a part of. And the university's greatest responsibility is to make sure that that its graduates are prepared to be able to contribute to the discussions and the challenges that society has. So I disagree. I don't think there's ever a situation where it isn't relevant. You might definitely have a point here, Catherine, of course, I guess I'm influenced by my own teaching experiences from a department where I talk about environmental effects of shipping and some of the students there, they were simply there to learn how to drive a boat. They were not interested in how some crab feels in the sea or something like that. So, but for sure, yesterday's concern everybody, of course. Please go ahead. Yeah, just to continue from I fully agree with Catherine. And one thing that I want to tell you all is that our university is now starting probably in two years, we're now planning it as one of the first universities, the world to kind of obligatory sustainability science course to all newcomers at the university. It applies to mathematics students and the medicine students and everybody like IT skills or ethics or whatever you need to study that you should go. You will go for one sustainability science course. It will be a huge course because we have 3000 newcomers every year, but they are now planning it and our university is like very committed to start it in two years. Yeah, I just want to comment this since I brought in the term relevant because I think many of our students when they are at the university now, they have had a lot about the astegies from high school and they are prepared to understand this into they're prepared to learn more about what is the most relevant for their own field of study. So I think we should consider both ways, but to learn how this contributor impact their own work in the future. I think that's stimulating them to also learn more with work for other areas as well. So both maybe. I just want to add that quite often nowadays the students know much more about sustainable development than the teachers. The teachers have their specialties and their different disciplines. And sometimes I wonder if the students should maybe we should flip classes, classrooms, et cetera. But the challenge is really how to again work across borders between disciplines. How do we make it possible to bring in aspects that were never in the courses that are relevant to sustainable development, but in the classical courses that we are giving how can new aspects be included? I think there are a number of challenges there. I will go ahead and move on from the discussion we had about education to discussion about course mapping. And many universities have mapped and labelled their courses and programmes according to the STDs. So for example, students would know more what will be taught in different courses. And the Sustainable Science Centre at the University of Copenhagen has, for example chosen to do this. So Catherine, could you first summarise, briefly summarise the rationale and the criteria for the mapping that you did. And secondly, give your view if such mapping and labelling actually improves the quality of the education itself. I would say first of all, you have to be aware we did this several years ago. And if I was going to do it today, I would do it differently. But the motivation for doing this was the fact that when I went to, as representing the Sustainability Science Centre and talked to Institute leaders, they said, oh, but there's lots of sustainability in all of our courses. And when I talked to the students, the students said, but there's no anywhere that have anything to do with sustainability. So there seemed to be a lack of a bridge here between the two. So what we did was we went through all of the course offerings at both bachelor and master's level in all of the faculties and tried to, we had three different people do it. And they all tried to see if they could find something in the pencil and the goals of that course that was relevant for an SDG and then put it in so that you can, what happens today is that if the student, a potential student goes in and says, I want a course that's relevant for SDG 10, then they push a button and they can see all of the courses that are relevant for SDG 10 at the university. It was an interesting exercise because, of course, before we put it on the net, we went back to the teachers and said, is it okay to plot your course as being relevant to SDG X? And many of them said, oh, but my course has sustainability or what are the SDGs? So we clearly, there was a mismatch there as well. So that's also been very useful. And based on my previous input, today if I was to do it again, and the person who's gonna do this is listening in, so I hesitate to come with it, but I think we need to revisit this because again, I don't think just finding out a course is relevant for a single SDG is particularly interesting. I think what's interesting is how research or courses can contribute to competences that can be used to transform the systems that we talked about earlier. And at this very moment, we're in the process of remapping all of our research at the university so that it's put in the context of can it contribute or how can it contribute to transforming one or more of the societal activities that requires transformation. I would like to extend that approach or go back and visit courses again once we've got the research mapped out in this transformation arena. I'd like to go back and try and look at education in terms of transformation and not just in the context of SDGs, but given the time that we did this at and the fact that there wasn't that much awareness, at least among the teachers about SDGs, I think this was a really useful exercise and it doesn't have to be removed yet. I just think it needs to be evolved in the coming time. Thank you, Catherine. So do you also think that this has in some way informed the teachers and maybe even put some pressure on the teachers to improve their education about sustainability? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. There's no question about it. And first of all, they said, oh, but you know, is this relevant and could you come and give a guest lecture and help me understand? And so yes, absolutely. It's been a way of getting the teachers involved. And the funny thing was that when the university itself did a film last year about how wonderful we are for the SDGs and it was the central communication office of the university that was responsible for this and they did some tapes of the Rector and we'd supplied the Rector with text of what he should say and where he advertises the fact that we've done this mapping and the head of communications said, oh, no, we haven't, oh, get that out. It's not in them. So yes, we have. So it also was very important in terms of helping the leadership of the university to understand just how many links there already are to sustainability, or at least the SDGs in our existing curriculum. That's great news. More or less exactly what I wanted to hear or sort of anticipated to hear. He didn't give me the text. Thank you, Catherine. So also in addition to education, of course universities perform research and they communicate about their research and the SDGs. And hopefully they also work to improve their own operations to align with the SDGs. And Kaisa, you have published an article about realising the SDGs in the University of Helsinki, last autumn. So this was published in Sustainable Development Goals and Institutions of Higher Education. I'm sure we can put a link to this chapter in the chat. But Kaisa, could you briefly describe the conclusions made for your university with regards to this? And do you also think that these conclusions are sort of valid for other Nordic universities, so in other Nordic countries? Yes, thank you. Yes, we did the kind of SDG mapping in our university, University of Helsinki, but not the kind of whole research, all the research we have and all the teaching we have, but the kind of new, we mapped the new research and teaching openings in the university that are like strategic openings starting from 2015. And then we, 2015, 16, 17, 18, and we also mapped the university operations and activities from those years. And the results of this mapping showed that of course the quality of education, the SDG-4 is the goal, goal is clearly important for all the new initiatives, also in own operation, which was not really surprising. And also the SDG-17 partnerships and the SDG-3 health and well-being were strongly kind of emphasized initiatives. But what was interesting was that the SDG-1, no poverty, SDG-6, clean water and sanitation, SDG-5, gender equality, were not considered almost at all in research activities, not at all and in teaching given very little emphasis. However, these are like the main, major sustainability challenges globally. But we, as a country, we compared the report where we evaluated the Finnish, as a country of Finland's performance, we are performing very well in these SDGs, of course. So you can ask that can university, but we are anyway committed to contribute to global development as a university. So raises the question that we should also think about these SDGs in our strategic planning, if we want to have a global impact, even in our own country, these are already taken care of. And also one another finding was related, a little bit of this, I noticed in the program that we will have a presentation on times higher education, university impact ranking, also here in this webinar. And that ranking focuses on 15 SDGs, excluding the SDG-1, the poverty, no poverty, SDG-2, zero hunger, clean energy and clean water and sanitation, 15 life on land and SDG-14 life below water. And why this exclusion was done was, it was decided by the higher education institutions that were consulted. But our mapping kind of showed that also the universities could play a significant role, for example, piloting the new energy solutions like we have solar panels in many of our building roofs at the moment and so on. So it's difficult to say how applicable these results are for other universities. I guess the quality of education is like obviously core in all universities globally. But I think at least for us, it was quite useful exercise that made us to think that how we should take into account that global aspect more explicitly in all of our activities. So leaving no one behind is perhaps something to think about here for your university. Okay, although SDSN doesn't accept businesses as members, we are definitely encouraged to develop collaboration in partnerships with businesses. And Anik, I know that you have worked quite a lot with corporates of social responsibility, business models for sustainability and green innovation. How can we as universities and as a network interact more with business without compromising our academic standards of objectivity and transparency and that's one. What's your view on that? Yes, CSR, it's about responsibility. And again, the SDGs put attention to areas where this should be practiced. For example, in SDG number 12, responsibility is part of the title of the goal. And it's about how companies can show responsibility about upstream and downstream in their production value chains and also how to give information to the consumer about the impact of the products, both on the environment and the society. So I think it's well connected to the SDG. This was just an example. And that our vision is knowledge for a better world. And we should therefore develop knowledge of importance for all sectors that can contribute to achieve our vision and also the SDGs. And by talking about CSR and collaboration with companies, it's about also how to help business to better see their role to achieve the SDGs in a more holistic system. As I mentioned in my presentation, that NTNU campus in Olsen is one of the most industry-integrated campuses. We have double as many from industry at campus as from academia. And it's for all, it's natural that all of our students also learn how to work with their business. And my experience from this is quite positive. The students learn from companies and we also learn about what's important importance in our courses and training for industry and the development of working places for the students in the future. But of course, there is sensitive information that companies do not want to share. And this can sometimes be a discussion on how much we could share both ways. But in such cases, we have mechanisms where we can protect information that students get insight in during their master thesis, for example. And students are also trained in the ethical principles and how to work in collaboration with external partners. So as an example, we have a study program in the bio marine innovation. And this means that the students need to work very close with industry and with companies. And in fact, we're quite proud of our students here. They have been winning the European championship and also Norwegian championships in young entrepreneurship through their student enterprises. So they are trained during their study program also to work as business, so to say. So I think this is important and close integration between India and industry is important to develop also understanding of sustainable development in companies. So we have tested this out and we feel very comfortable with working with industry in this way. As you all know, the Nordic countries ranks very well on the SDG index as we also been described here previously, but we do perform quite poorly on some of the SDGs, for example, 12, 13, 14, or 15. And we also have a very bad negative spillover score. So negative spillover effects are, for example, environmental damages in other countries that are connected to our consumption here in our countries. So we have clear problems with this. And Jan, I would first like to ask you, how can the SDGs and Northern Europe members and the SDGs and network address negative spillovers? And secondly, what kind of research is needed for societies to have control over their negative spillover effects? Is there any quality assurance that science or research can contribute with here? First of all, I think Catherine already mentioned here that we need to consider these kinds of aspects. We look at the SDG index for our Nordic countries. It looks much better than it actually is. Quite often we are consuming, for example, what is produced elsewhere outside the natural borders and it looks much better than it actually is. We are globally connected and that is not really being addressed as much as it should. I think that also we know fairly well what we do with the SDGs, but it's quite difficult to quantify the effects when it comes to spillover effects. So I think there are a number of scientific questions there, trying to get a better grasp of understanding of how it works and how to measure if we are going to do anything about it. And in the end, also, if we look at transformations to try to improve this, it gets quite complicated and in the end, we need to really think hard about how to balance economic, social, and ecological aspects across national borders. So there are a number of interesting research projects that should be carried out in this field. And just in the last thing, what might be that, I think we need better tools to understand and emphasize spillovers like in daily life. If you go and shop in, you would like to know to some extent, at least where do the products come from? How does it influence the world, not only within our national borders? So not a list of explicit projects for research, but a few ideas, Martin.