 Yeah, welcome to politics for the people we changed the name of the show from American finding its way We didn't want to confuse it with with Tim Apichella show on Wednesday So we changed the name to politics for the people on Thursday But the same show as before and Tim Apichella joins us. So does Winston Welsh today. Welcome to the show you guys Good morning. Thank you, Jake Our title is peril by Bob Woodward and Robert Costa a very Important interesting well-written well-reported books. What does it teach us about Trump? And there are revelations in that book as have been revealed not only in reading the book which is on Amazon I bought it this morning but also in the various interviews these guys have had with various Cable reporters and it's really important that we understand that and the public understands what these Revelations are but Tim What are the dots to connect? There are so many things that happen including the revelations But not limited to the revelations in the book. Can you connect some dots for us and show us the context? Sure. Thanks, Jay. Good morning. Hey, um, you know, I think we have to look at all this the separate intersections where Donald Trump or his directed aides attempted to Overturn this election or or taint the election before the election took place So without any particular order, let me just kind of go down to talk about the dots Remember we had the big one which was Donald Trump's call to Ukraine President Zelensky Trying to get him to initiate a an investigation to Joe Biden and that of course prompted his first impeachment Then we had throughout the election period Donald Trump saying it's fraudulent and if I lose it's only because it's fraudulent There's no way I can lose if I do it's fraudulent and then remember he he had a postmaster de joy Slow down the mailing system to dismantle sorting machines and take mailing boxes out of communities So that for the purpose of slowing down bit mail-in ballots that possibly wouldn't be Arrived in time and counted as as a legitimate vote We then have election night and about 2 30 in the morning Donald Trump declared himself the winner and he said I'm the winner and this thing is changing and it's it's it's the biggest fraud against America That started really off the the the the intense claim that this election was fraudulent Then we move fast forward to December 15th where he had the Department of Justice Rosen come into his office And he said I want you to set up Legal briefs to support my lawsuits that are going before federal judges And then he also wanted a separate special investigation to look into the Dominion voting machines And to basically try to prove that they were fraudulent and switch votes to Joe Biden December 18th 2020 Trump calls in Michael Flynn and Sydney Pound they go over a strategy on how to seize the voting machines And maybe declare martial law December 22nd Mark Meadows chief of staff for Donald Trump He goes down to Cobb County, Georgia And he wants to see what's going on and they refuse to let him in because they're trying to certify signatures in a You know a secluded room. He then goes meets with Francis Watson Who is the election head investigator in Georgia and lo and behold the next day on December 23rd Donald Trump calls her and Basically says you have the most important job to do and when your right comes you'll be praised So he was asking her to you overthrow the ballots in Georgia Donald went Trump on December 27th called Rosen again And he's this is the one he said just say the election with corrupt and then leave the rest to me and the Republican congressman a Pivotable moment in Donald Trump's fingerprint on how he's trying to overthrow the election Then we go to the big one January 5th where Donald Trump is in the room with Mike Pence and he's basically saying you have the power to reject all these fraudulent chosen electors and The rest which is a detailed in the book Parallel the biggest quid pro quo ever known and that is Overturn the election electors and I'll be your friend and if you don't do it. I don't want to be your friend So these are just some of the data points where Donald Trump has overtly either through his aides or Agency has or himself has gone above and beyond the call of duty of trying to reverse a Democratic election we go from there. Okay, let's go from there Winston, you know Some some things that Trump did were fair aggressive, maybe but fair Some of them were unfair And too aggressive Some of them were unfair and illegal much too aggressive Some were unfair and you know downright outrageous and illegal and Some were clearly an effort to throw over the whole system not parts of it, but the whole system so my question to you is How do you take the dots that Tim referred to that he mentioned and that he mentioned by by reference? How do you characterize them was was this a coup? Was it something other than a coup taken together? Is it a coup taken separately? Is it a coup? What is it? Well, I don't think that Donald Trump or his supporters would consider it to be a Coup attempt they were just trying to right the wrong that had been thrust upon them with fake ballots and And and dead people voting and all the things that were claimed which of course is as even his own Attorney general who was solidly in his quarter said there is Nothing to support any allegations of massive voter fraud anywhere and these elections are sound and Then resigned shortly thereafter because he didn't want to be caught in all this fallout You know, Jay The thing was we knew what was happening before any of this because he already told us if I don't win It's fake election. So we already had the outcome of what his plan was going to be it was just a now a matter of Seeing because we are a legalistic society seeing where this system could be tripped up To try and get into some legal loopholes that might have stopped this thing And try to stay in office try to take over the government as President when in fact he didn't win and knew it. We all knew it The question is whether that's a coup and if it wasn't a coup before the insurrection was the insurrection a coup Well, I mean a lot of people would certainly label it a You know plans for that it didn't happen obviously because Joe Biden is in Office and I think probably a number of people finally had to sit and maybe I maybe Ivanka or for Jared sat down with him and said sir, it's it's over You need to leave you can you can still carry on from from Florida or wherever you want to carry on from but right now you need to leave and And in fact, that's exactly what's happened There's been no repercussions really to any bun and and there won't be there won't be that the Q and on shaman You know he he's played this essentially insanity that he joined the cult and that's about all that we've heard There will be other people that maybe Have some repercussions, but I don't see it out there and it's not It it's scary for what's coming up in in 2022 or 24 when the stage is being set to already have this and mass but You know if I didn't read the poll this morning that said that 51% of Americans thought that Donald Trump had did a better job as president right now Joe Biden It's having a terrible week, but we have to think back. This is This is This is sort of a mass hypnosis about the truth of what happened I mean even if you take this awful example of the Haitians on the border in Texas and all of that and the Incredible photo you have on horseback. This is a fiasco, but Immigration a mess, but even then do we're forgetting that that the past president she media past president Was talking about putting alligators and votes On the on the border People forget so Tim you were shaking your head. What were you shaking your head about? Yeah, I have to disagree with my good friend Winston on this one I think there is a basis for someone with standing to challenge Donald Trump in the 14th amendment paragraph 3 I think there's enough data points of evidence to be called together and have a very clear pattern That Donald Trump proactively worked to overturn a democratic election That alone should be enough to disbar him from public office in the future Whether he gets criminally charged or or not. I think Winston's correct, but I don't think this The findings that the select committee in the House of Representatives will come up with in that report plus all these data points and all the testimonies That's going to be hopefully obtained through subpoenas I think we'll have a clear picture on just how effective he was or not effective But how close he came to overturning a democratic 2020 presidential election so The 14th amendment section 3 constitutional provision is undoubtedly going to have to be interpreted in court It's not self-executing doesn't happen by itself Somebody is going to have to mount the lawsuit or Donald Trump will not lead for sure voluntarily So that'll go to the supreme court. How confident are you that the federal court system? Which is bristling with his appointees most if not all of whom are completely political And selected on the basis of loyalty rather than confidence How confident are you about the political system that would interpret? The 14th amendment section 3 Well, that's a great question Jay because we just saw a Roe v. Wade Being ignored by the supreme court probably out of political consideration So your question is well-founded and so to answer it. I'd say it's a 50-50. It's a twin cost So, you know one thing one thing that troubles me about your question Winston Is that we were all here including, you know, the blue the red the republicans the democrats through Trump's administration And if that poll reads out at 51 thinking Trump did a good job They were sleeping at the stick Because it's not a question. Well, I guess it is a question of comparison But the fact is it much if not all of the problems that biden is having Were were laid in his time bombs and booby traps by trump as part of trump's legacy And then trump is the complainer in in chief. He's always, you know, he and his friends are always criticizing biden for everything including things that biden has no responsibility about So, um, you know, they've they've been sleeping at the switch somehow if they vote 51 But here's my question to you Just suppose They connected the dots the way tim has Just suppose they get on, uh, kindle and order the book What is it? peril by by woodward and and costa And read it and begin to understand the the dots and the connection And the people involved all around trump all the things he did Do you think the 51 percent would change then for me? I don't I don't think so. I think that People have very short attention spans. Do you remember what the big topic was two weeks ago? Afghanistan Afghanistan how It's not even in the papers So, uh, because you have a steel trap mind you can remember that for the rest of us You know, even the uh, you know, I I mean it's it's We we forget the daily hours hourly onslaught that we had to endure and so You know While joe biden isn't there wagging his finger at macron and you know telling him some choice words in french um Instead of saying, you know what we really do need to consult with our allies You're important to us and we messed up on this one. He's eating crow just because uh, You know somebody made some missteps underneath them. He deals with things differently It does it he's a sane rational competent human being in office and because we've had someone who rants and raves and storms about and throws things That's much more entertaining The fact that we've come to equate that with presidential is um a little bit disconcerting and and scary Because there was nothing presidential about that And I think we need to harken back to a time where the president is is a person who is respected by The majority of the population who is who carries The command of the office. I think joe biden does that that poll didn't say Do you do you respect joe biden in office? Just so which one did you like more something along those lines? or Maybe it was who who seemed more presidential whatever it was. It's disconcerting, but I think joe biden does have respect of of people But again, we're at a 50 50 in the in the senate This information from costa's book. It's all you know Pressuring the secretaries of state pressuring the state legislatures trying to get the courts to overturn Uh trying to get mike penns to overturn um, and then and then the The january 6th, you know mom as the atlantic uh lays out very well None of this is going to really have any effect right now joe biden's job is as I've said before just a poor baking soda all over the nation because it's been on fire And he needs to calm people down. He needs to get us back to some norms Some regular behavior And it may be boring it might not be exciting to have someone not kicking and screaming and throwing things and calling people names But you know what that's what a mature saying responsible adult does and that's what the leader of the free nation does Tim I want to ask you about the rule of the press in this, you know, I mean to my observation They have me for about three hours a day No kidding and I find that the first hour is good the second hour repeats the first hour and the third hour repeats the second hour Is there not enough news? Why aren't they covering The important things the kinds of things we cover. I'm sorry that we cover right here Instead they spend in ordered amounts of time on precious stories stories of Local crime stories of I don't know all kinds of things They're not as important to the continuation of the country Um, and I think they look for raw meat And if it's raw meat if somebody throws a some raw meat down they all go for it And they forget about doing what you did connecting the dots So the public is suggestible And the public buys the raw meat and the public doesn't suggest the dots Do you place blame on the media for the fact that people feel that trump did a job that was better than by Yes, I do Also, I place blame on those federal agencies that are allowing the reporting of lies and misinformation particularly about covid vaccines and and cures um This is irresponsible media reporting and our government agencies seem to be letting this go with Unchecked and yet their purpose is to make sure that these things are checked You know, you mentioned raw meat. Well, remember the old adage in media if it bleeds it leaves So sensationalist reporting has seemed to win the order of the day because it attracts people That's why donald trump does so well. He's a reality tv star with You know craziness to his actions and words, but people just seem to be attracted to that like a moth to a life So, um, yes, the media has been remiss and to explain why They repeat the same stories over and over again is because to allude to what winston said People just can't handle new topics In an avalanche Fashion they can only Comprehend so much at one time So the media knows that and I think that's why they repeat stories over and over again Yeah, that's one of the reasons I have learned to watch The bbc Because there's a lot of things happening that a regular american cable channels simply do not cover Winston i want to i want to turn to you and ask you about the the debt ceiling, okay The debt ceiling is a very interesting Competitive strategy scenario each one wants to blame it on the other McConnell wants to somehow leave the public thinking That the democrats are at fault for blowing up the the debt the debt ceiling and of course in fact seems to me that that McConnell and the republicans are at fault But how is this going to play out in terms of that poll? How is it going to play out in terms of who gets blamed for this really? catastrophic cliffhanger that we have here which will be resolved very soon Well, Nancy Pelosi said that she uh is not going to let the government shut down But um, you know when the government does shut down The president always wins no matter who the president is that you generally speaking if in the prior government shut down that I remember they The president pretty much said bring it on And people got sick of not getting their paychecks and and the whole freak out about that Of course, they got them eventually and they know that they will But it's it's playing a little bit of chicken now given the uh, you know The debt that said I don't think people really care about the debt But we just increased the the the money supplied by 40 percent last year Yeah, you know, this is all in some sense Do people know what a trillion is how many how many you know, 1,000 millions is a trillion? They don't know they don't care. That's not really important to them What they miss is their their entertainment and that's that's what that's I think what that poll reflected was that you had this Apologist and then entertainment wrapped up together in one and to get back to your question about the supreme court what they would have done I think they would have come down on the side of of justice and and right and the constitution as they interpreted Um in a conservative fashion, which was that he did not win because you remember they did um act to not Allow some recount in pennsylvania or some something there. Maybe they did in michigan too I can't remember what it was, but there was something where they didn't even hear it So they just wanted it to play out and I think that uh, they would have done that as far as a roby way That that one's gone. So whatever remains is to be seen. We'll see but that can't be Uh, I don't I hope can't be conflated or equated With what we saw regarding article 14 section three Hmm no remains to be seen um, you know tim You know, we've had At least in recent memory a dozen books From insiders around trump and now reporters Who have been able to talk to insiders around trump? And indeed as you pointed out, there's a lot of thoughts to connect Are we done? Do you have the sense that this is it? Or are there more books going to come out and how influential are they going to be this one's pretty influential But what are we going to see going forward more of the same less of the same? Um, are we going to see republican type of books come out? I think if I was an author, I'd wait to see what the select committee comes up with testimony and documents and just dedicate a book to the specifics that was discovered that quite a clear direction to donald trump and his attempt to overthrow a democratic election So there's a there's a book waiting to be written I think they just need a little more information and and quite frankly, um, all the information they've gathered so far Could be synthesized in another summary book so Again, it's so much that it's hard for the the general public to get their arms around it and really understand to what degree donald trump and his His mischievous aides and agency heads have tried to do to overthrow a democratic election and it's crazy, but um There's more to come I guarantee it you know the carl is Understands one thing and then his timing is everything Look how he blew up the second impeachment by by crafting a time strategy. You know, it's really that was really smart And um, you know and he knows too that the longer you wait before you get the revelation The less the less of a revelation it is And so, uh, we're we're into uh, october already soon enough Um, and it's been a long time since last year's election been 11 months actually Um, and as winston said, uh, you know, they they don't care about a lot of things they should care about And they don't they don't care about the debt ceiling even though it could be a crisis Um, what do they care about and and do they care him? Do they care about this commission? That's now a select committee That's now 11 months after the fact Do they give a rip about what it finds and what it ultimately concludes? It's like the mother report. You're sitting wait on pins and needles after a while, you know, you don't care What do you think? You know, I I guess I have a a a personal story that might shed some light on your question and that is Last evening I was uh having dinner with a very good friend. He's a republican I wouldn't call him a trump. I but he's he's a conservative republican and We talked about the election and what's in this book peril And um, he didn't deny that there was overt attempts to overthrow a democratic election. He didn't deny it But what he said is well, at least we'd get rid of joe biden And I said, are you serious? I said, so the ands justifies the means in order to get rid of joe biden You're willing to swallow the overthrow of a 240 year tradition of democratic election and the rule of law And did I get that right? Well, he was he was mum after that point and I asked for the check And I paid the bill and that was the end of that night because I don't want to sit down with people Who want to throw our democracy under the table under the bus? And if that's their philosophy is that? Well get rid of joe biden and the democrats. What the hell? um, I don't want to be in that that conversation anymore And if anyone's following donald trump after january 6, I don't want to be with those people either because Uh, there's words for him and I I don't want to really say it out here on on air But I just don't want to be associated with that kind of thinking. I love this country and enough's enough Reminds me of a conversation I had with a trump or Where um, you know, was it really you're a trump or that's terrible? And he said yes, I'm a trump or Quote this is a quote. Would you rather have hillary clinton? It's the same kind of thing You know because somehow The trumpers and trump pasted her retrospectively made her look bad That was the big thing and then they argued would you rather have hillary clinton? And now it's I it sounds like we're in the same mode You know, I I wouldn't rather have biden than than trump and that means that his strategy Of criticizing everything that biden does is working It's working j. It's okay to criticize. It's just like is it okay to overthrow our democracy for us I mean the the the the the choice between a and b is Is you know, it's just not comprehensible. I can't understand it because I understand you don't like hillary clinton I understand you like joe biden You know, don't get mad as obama used to say don't get mad vote, but don't overthrow our democracy to do it Yeah, well, you know winstead it goes again to the question of timing We have merit garland who really hasn't done much And whose investigation everybody was thinking that he could move with fleet with fleet foot Back in when he was you know When he was confirmed On investigating in the department of justice In the fbi what happened to the insurrection? Which is the most shattering thing that ever happened to this country Um, and he hasn't really done anything as far as I can see Uh likewise, um, you know those prosecutions about the insurrectionists You don't hear much about them. They're old news and they're not going anywhere Whole thing is like flat already And and I I just uh, I wanted to ask you I mean, isn't it true that if these things get old and there's no action taken If these things are Layed up on the shelf somewhere Doesn't doesn't that hurt biden doesn't that hurt democracy? Isn't that the same thing as the select committee not not actually doing a whole lot? I'm sorry. I missed the last five words. You said so I was watching my ticket Isn't it the same thing as the select committee the select investigation committee? I'm not doing a whole lot I'm being facetious I of course I'm focusing 100 on you, but I'm saying the masses are on the tiktok feed It's a five second feed and that's the attention span Select committee The words don't even register for most people and the the the reality is December And the Quinnipiac poll it was Quinnipiac, but said seventy seven percent of republicans felt there was election fraud that was probably a Constant and it stayed that room it stayed that way now Donald Trump left office with a 29 approval rating according to pew which I think a pew research says Is it is a sort of a pbs? You know of polls? Look jay nothing's gonna happen out of this So there's no political will to fight this The of the work we're hanging on by our nails here What we need to focus on is to work that joe biden is doing quietly behind the scenes, which is rebuilding these institutions shorting them up pouring the concrete putting in the steel rebar's and and hopefully getting that done before 2022 because if it doesn't happen then Uh, you know, and I don't think donald trump's gonna run I think there's enough that was unleashed with him that there's so much fury that's going to come around the marjorie Taylor greens are just the beginning of all of this so We have a lot more pain with this coming from but I am convinced that my fellow compatriots will say enough of this already We share so much in common in this great and good land that we need to focus on that and Hopefully people will come back to that because we've been We've been swinging so far that each half the nation feels agrees Every time every election and that is not the way that we can run this country I don't know who's there to bring it together. If such a person exists I I don't know if we if it would become a multi-party model. I really don't know how that happens, but We're not really Working it well right now and yet. There's such a death If we're not working it well, it means that people aren't necessarily going to vote for joe biden come around They're not necessarily going to vote for democrats come around there. The burden is clear You know, let me go to tim for a minute. You know tim we started talking about the book The peril book right and connecting the thoughts of all these conspiratorial things And the the co-conspirators have essentially gotten away with it And for that matter trump essentially has gotten away with it It's it's really awful and and you know the thing I wanted to ask you about is to How can we explain this book comes out? Okay, and all these dots get connected and more people at least in my world understand How very I'm not sure what the word is, but how very much like a coup this was We're talking about treason here that turned over the forceful overthrow of the government And yet the newspaper tells us just as the poll Is that the number of people who are on the republican side is somehow Miraculously increasing it's increasing that seems to be clear from what you read What's what's happening here? Well, I don't think it's correlation just with you know, what happened on january 6th, you know President biden's having the calamity hit his desk on everything. So that's affecting the polls that will change those numbers are going to change If it were me, I would take the book peril Plus the findings of the select committee take all those data points and all those findings and all those significant awareness of how this thing has been You know amplified by donald trump and give it to the lincoln project Let them do five commercials because no one knows how to take on donald trump and the Trumpites better than the lincoln project. You can't depend on the democrats to do it because they're a net They don't know how to do it. So give it to the lincoln project farm it out contract it out And let them let them do what they do best and that has shed light on the truth and in its nitty gritty way Light the pathway Hiring republicans or former republicans to do the work that democrats can't do Well, they know how to fight they know how to fight like a republican Well, you know part of this if I sum up this discussion in my mind winston But I get is that although as you say Joe biden is working, you know, like under the hood to do the right thing quiet and what what arioshi Effective and quiet quiet and effective All that it may not work now in the national context Winston wouldn't it be better and this is your final remark here because we're almost out of time Wouldn't it be better if he got more aggressive? Wouldn't it be better if he attacked trump? Wouldn't it be better if he attacked all these trumpet people? And really let him have it and gave the and gave the public something to See as I don't want to use raw meat, but at least an aggressive statement of some kind He's so mellow. He's so modest that he's boring. I'm sorry You know what boring is exactly what this nation needs right now Boring understated and getting the job done and if he wants to throw out some things that he can have people attack Exactly. He has a lot of attack dogs that can go after the points, but they should not go after the person It's the person that's caused the problem Not the points. Jay. This country is is filled with Good principled people on both sides principled republicans that have been discontented principled liberals and progressive and and ultra conservatives We share We share an overwhelming majority of Of what we of what's good in this nation. We all want good schools. We want good roads. We want good governance How our vision of the country may be different But right now we don't need to be slinging but at back of donald trump because he is a master at All of that and he doesn't need any more oxygen than he's getting right now. We need to focus on Building back better as joe biden said and we've got a lot of different areas We can focus on given donald trump isn't one of the things we need to do Yeah, we'll see you about infrastructure. Won't we we'll see tim your last comment And I hope you you know discussed the same point that winston was discussing namely shouldn't joe biden be raising his voice Well, you know joe biden reminds me not that I knew him personally, but uh calvin coolidge. They used to call him cool cow When the nation was in crisis economic crisis Coolidge was just you know, just not even there. I mean he was trying to get things done, but you know just was so Calm about it that uh Nothing really got done and joe biden needs to roll up his sleeves and if he can't do it I think he can but if he can't do it Uh farm it out to the lincoln project let that let them be his foil Although he has the bully pulpit and trump knew how to use the bully pulpit like nobody's business. He was very effective at it You know, maybe joe biden should take a page out of donald trump's book And use that bully pulpit and use it for the common good for the the preservation of democracy For the preservation of the rule of law and to ensure that the 2024 election is not going to be overturned out of You know people who want to see this this turned under our our democracy turned under So that's what joe biden could do and he can start doing it now not later Okay, I can't resist one more question Give us a week's prediction. We used to ask this question early on Tim what's going to happen in the next week? Okay, well the odds are way against me I think the progressive democrats and the centrist democrats come to an understanding about the infrastructure bill and they get something done It will not be 3.5 trillion. I guarantee you but it may be around 1.75 Maybe as high as 2 trillion, but I i'm gonna put the number about 1.7 1.75 on that second infrastructure bill. They'll get it done Okay, and winston your prediction for the next week Okay, I think joe biden's probably watching the show and he's going to take some advice from it and What we have is a is a kindly good moral authority figure of grandfather leah if you will Who can stand up and just say it how it is Your prediction winston your prediction And that's what's going to do he's going to come out and he's going to and he's going to state some truths That exist about our nation and how we need to go about solving the problem because he knows he's out a rough week And they're preparing it right now as we speak Okay, my prediction. Thank you. Thank you, winston. Thank you, tim It's elements and welch and there's a dog there too. Thank the dog. Thank you very much everybody for this First edition if you will of politics for the people here In lieu of america Finding his way. Thank you so much. Aloha. See you next week Thank you