 They tied him to the stairwell to shop him. That was for murder on UK soil. We're going to assault. We all got into a position and a big distraction. Go, go, go. 11 minutes to clear the 54-56 croons, the rescue 19 hostages, five terrorists, perish. Rossi, how are you, sir? Very well, mate. Just preparing for a funeral tomorrow. Oh, bad luck. Someone close or a military colleague? Yeah, a military colleague. You see the guys on there behind me? Not the one behind me with no gloves, but the next one back, mate. Oh. We'll be there tomorrow to see him. Yes. Are we able to say his name or is that not a good idea? I won't bother to lose, you know, he's not a well-known guy. Oh, it's probably better. Let's just say Jerry. Okay. Well, I hope it goes all right. Yeah. We'll make it work. Yes. I think as we get older, isn't it? We know more and more of our oppos go into the big piss up in the sky. That's it, mate. Yes. We'll be there one day. Yes. Rossi, I wanted to ask you about your younger years, because I bet you've been asked about the embassy cease to death, haven't you? More or less, mate. But for me, the story never changes. I've still got my memories, in fact, of doing a crowdcast on the 4th and 5th of May, coming up 21st, and that is for the 41st anniversary of the siege. That's coming up on the 4th and 5th of May on a crowdcast. So if people want to go anywhere near that, then all they have to do is go on to my Twitter, Rusty Furman, on my Facebook, Rusty Furman, and they'll pick up the details, where it is, what it is, and what it's about. Very simple. Yeah, got you. So growing up, Rusty, what was childhood like? Sorry, this sounded like an interview, and I don't do interviews, but I am genuinely interested in what leads someone into joining the army, and then getting their green berry, and then going for the elite special forces. So growing up wasn't particularly happy. I'm interested all in my book of the regimen, 15 years in the SAS. It was hard. I didn't really know any parents. I think I'm a guy who's never sent a mother or father's day card in his life. So I was 5'2 and weighed about 7 stone, and I was a dead ringer for the bullies who wanted to bully me. Okay, it lasted for a while, and then took that as part of growing up. Didn't like it. I had some friends who were very close friends. I've got one of two in car, while they're still very close friends to this day, and that's how it happened. I just wanted, I didn't want to go in the army, that's the definite, but at 15, I was taken to the recruiting office, and ended up in the junior leaders regiment, more artillery, down in Dunnington, Bramford, Dunnington, where I spent a couple of years there, hated the first three months, and then found my way into a taxant, which was a bit of a start to grow, you know, with the physical training and stuff. And within a couple of years, I've grown about 7 or 8 inches, and I was up there 5'10, not to be bullied anymore. But I did represent, going through the system, it was only myself left the car while at the same time that I knew. And once I was there, it would stand on your own feet, or fall by the wayside. However, football saved me a lot, because I played for everybody, and sometimes I was playing four or five games a week, you know, I couldn't get enough of football. And then, so that takes me on through my boys' service, and at home, occasionally, because some of my friends, I used to go and stay with them, but when there was a break, a summer break, maybe something, I might got to hold, heavily, with a few friends of mine. Very rarely did I go home, because when I left there, I knew there wasn't anything there for me, apart from being a friend. And as I say, we're still in touch to this day, all those years later, was it 55 years now, something like that. And really, that's how the early part of my life was. It was once, I'm quite a friendly sort of person, to be upset with me, made friends easily. The discipline I found hard, because I came from no discipline. I worked on that. And finally, you know, I left boys' boys' service at approximately 17 and a half years of age. I'd grown and matured. I learned an awful lot about life. And that life doesn't owe you anything. You sit back, well, you could still be sat back to this day. What you have to do is go out and grab something. What I did is I went to the unit after that that I wanted to. And that's really where my football within the Army took off. I had a reason to be there. And it wasn't all about being military of that age, I can tell you now. I found that I could do what I wanted to do. I get paid for it, enjoy it. And that's what I did. That was what I might call in those days, action soldier. Yes. Did you get that anger as a kid, Rusty? Sorry? Did you get that anger as a kid? Yeah, I used to get this thing where it's like you could bully me a bit and I just, I'd let it go and then I'd let it go. And then third time, I'd just snap them. I'd knock you out and then you wouldn't bully me again. And I can't really describe it. It's definitely part of having a broken childhood. Yeah, for a lot of reasons, you know. But yeah, I've been through that and as much as you want. I remember the bad times, they come flooding back to you. And you couldn't, you know, and then things change. I'm no different to exactly what happened to me. What's it like being a junior leader, mate? Because that's how they're of a young age, isn't it, to join the army? Yeah, I joined the 15. 15 and a half, they're about, I didn't know what the junior leaders meant. You know, I had no idea it was what artillery to me. Junior leader, how did I get into the junior leaders? You know, at school, I wasn't, I've still got some of my certificates from school, you know, stood in the corridor more than the classroom in those days. You know what I mean? And I had no interest, really, apart from maybe geography, woodwork and metalwork I used to like. At school. But then I went to Saturday exam in Carlisle and ended up in junior leaders. I've no idea how they marked it. Maybe they got my paper mixed up with something. I don't know. But that's how it happened. And then, as I say, I started to learn and being fed well, being exercised well, and I've got to enjoy it, having spent the first three months, just, if I had 50 pounds, that's what it cost in 1965. If I had 50 pounds, or somebody would have given me it, I'd have gone out the army. I ended up spending 27 years in the army to work out my name. Yes. Did you have any childhood heroes, Rusty? If you asked me about my childhood, first thing that comes in my mind is Tarzan. He was just my life. My footballers, we had a school there where we had three or four England Schoolboy International in Kaua, incredible amount in those days. And I just wanted to be them, but I knew I couldn't because I wasn't big enough. These were six-foot guys at age 15. They all made it to some degree. And I had another one in particular followed. There's a guy called George McBitty, played for Kaua, England Schoolboys, and then there was a few others. They, sports personalities in football only were my heroes, quite a lot of them. That's all I wanted to do. That was my only interest in life, nothing else. So I followed the sport and they were the heroes for me. You were a good football player, weren't you? Did I gather that? I ended up representing the British Army and BAOR, which is a good standard. In amateur football, it's as high as you're going to get. So yeah, I played for the British Army, I've got my colours. I played for BAOR, British Army over the Rhine in those days. I played for them as well. And every unit I went to, including the SAS, where I was captain of the team, where we had the best team in the county, we won all five trophies and won a season. So it followed me all the way through. And then my start, and I played my last game of football, I think when I was 60. So it just shows you, doesn't it? I started it at a really young age, but still wanted to play at age 60. Hey, we should start an all-star Internet Elite Forces Legends match. Let's call them Legends instead of... I'll be the guy that gives out the oranges at halftime. We can't lose that one, can we? Because we'll be in charge of it. So whatever happens, we win. Yeah, we'll bring in artillery. That'll be your job. What's it like then in 2.9? Because obviously the commando force is here in Plymouth. I mean, they're big guns, aren't they? What do they fire forces? Is it 17 or 18 miles? Now, it's all changed nowadays from when I was in there. You know, the Pachau, it's really there to support the Royal Marines. So I did my commando, of course. I volunteered for that, obviously. And I still ended up playing football for the Gunners and the Army when I was down in Plymouth. But obviously it was getting a bit much because I was supposed to be a soldier. So once it was nice to represent the Army, they then took me and put me on training wing, where, you know, I've always been fit. So I went on training wing, I went to the SAS eventually, well spent the last 18 months, two years of my time, just training, helping to train young commanders to get fit past the course and go down to Limbson, as you well know, where you finally get your green variant. It's always very nice to be part of training people. And I still didn't touch with people today who said, you train my dad. You know, so it doesn't go away. You know, and that's exactly what happened. And two or nine commando, Royal Artillery, I'm not mistaken, nowadays, they're the only regiments in the Army, which is a mandu regiment. So they, as you well know, have got the batteries, you know, to support, like, some 40 commando, four, one, four, five commando and so on. And you have a battery to support each and a forward operation observation battery, which works very well. And once I got to two nine, and so it was a toss up when I went to two nine commando, seven para RHA, it was a toss up, and it was all down to football. When we met up for Gunners football, they wanted me to go down to Plymouth, seven para RHA lads, they wanted me to go down to all the shop. So I looked at the pair of them, and I thought, when I want to spend my time for all the shop, wasn't really for me, but I would have done it. I thought, well, Plymouth, now I got to Plymouth and I'll do the commando course. And that's really what swayed it. So I could have been in seven para RHA, up to nine commando RA. So when you think back on it, I think I made the right decision, because from there, things took off after I finished into nine commando. And thinking about three and a half years, something like that. Really good times and good friends. And as you know, I may live up the road now. And I meet some of them and the unions plan through the lockdowns finished. And things, you know, that have taken a while, but you don't forget. You don't forget your friends. And I'm still, I'm an honorary member of two to nine commando now, charging mess and WO's mess. So I've got my own car pass and my own everything. So I can come and go. And it was very nice to be taken up there by the RHA. I mean, others taken into the mess and formally introduced to everybody. So we've locked down out the way at the moment, to some degree, it'd be nice to get up there and say hello to them and have a brew again. So it's only 25 minutes, 20 minutes away from me anyway. And it's a great place to sit and go on the whole lovely, lovely place. And it's a, yeah, since I was there, you know, so it really is, you know, a lovely old superdome. It's a magnificent fortress, isn't it? And it is. I've got one of the best views you'll have around there out onto the over the whole and out onto the sea itself. Lovely. How long will they keep hold of that then? When you think that the Marines have lost their, their vitulin yard. So the down at Devil's Point, the Royal William yard, that's been sold off and privatized. And now they're privatizing or selling off Stonehouse. Stonehouse as well. Yeah, I saw that. It's hard to say where they, the Marines seem to have, let's say, they had those areas you've talked about, including, I don't know about Bickely, you know, Bickely up the road, the training area up there, great training area, not quite sure. I spent a couple of days in there going back into last year when we did an event. And it's a nice camp as well. But what they're selling off, you never find out straight away, do you? They're all poems like a headline in a newspaper, you know, that such and such is being sold. That it'd be a shame to get rid of the Citadel, that's for certain. But, you know, the way the money grabbers are, you know, there's quite much around the corner that she don't. Yes, we're going to have a further chat about this sort of thing, aren't we? Let's save that for our next time. But they're sneaky fuckers, these people call them politicians, I'll call them puppets. They're all puppets, mate. They've got to stay together because they're all puppets, mate. You know, I'll back him. They've got no, it seems to be, they've got no sense, even though we don't want to go in on this one, but they've got no sense of what should be done. What they want to do is they're quite happy to sit down and take the wages and just sign bits of paper, in my opinion. And then they wonder why the country's in such a mess, but we can talk about that on the next one. Yes, definitely. What was your, what was your sort of relationship, Rusty, with the guys through the years? Is there much, how can you say, is there much bullying in the junior leaders if you all join at such a young age? No, no, very little, you know, it was, it was, well, it was before that, being junior leaders, you're far too busy to bully. A couple of the, you know, the sort of, the rank structure within junior leaders, normally if you've been there, you just join. You still have people, lads there that will have been there in your battery, they might have been there 18 months because they haven't finished and gone to a unit. They're the ones that got one strike, two strike, maybe three strikes or so on and so on. You could call it bullying if you wanted to say, why are you picking on me? I had to go and do this, I had to go and clean out the toilet and say, well, if that's bullying, then everybody got bullied to some degree over the two years. In my opinion, it's just part, somebody's got to do it and, you know, if you, if you wanted to use that as a bullying, it would be unfair. They've been there, they've started as a NIG, new intake runner, that's what you used to call them, then they moved for, you know, until they finally muster. And when they muster, they're allowed to wear a bayonet cloak, you know, on their belt and anybody who sees that, they go, oh, that's been here a couple of years, but not obviously him, because he's only got a few weeks to go and he's off to a man's unit, wherever that unit happened to be in those days. So it's, I never felt I was bullied in junior leaders. You might think that guy's a veteran as well, but that's about it. It didn't, I don't remember ever coming to the fishing cuffs or anything within that two-year period. When you go into the SES, Rusty, does it make you, I mean, something that was pointing out the other day on the podcast, I think it was Bob that was saying it, is if you go into the SES, up until quite recently, you're all Marines, so it was quite, you know, you spoke the same language, you came under Navy law and Navy tradition and etiquette and all this sort of stuff, and you all came under Marines operating procedure and lingo, but of course in the SES, it takes from all across the forces or it's certainly all across the Army back then. Does that make it interesting? Now, the thing is, it's totally voluntary. The SCRC, you don't get put on it, you don't have told you're going on it, you volunteer, and then there's two courses in a year, you get one or the other, you know, and to be honest, I think that really helps the makeup because you've got guys from all walks of life, such as the Intelligence Corps, Artillery, the Remy, the Corps, the all sorts that, you know, come on the Corps, parrots, commandos, they're all or were, and I had a few, a couple of ex-Millions, they came on the course and everybody fitted in together, but once you've passed and gone to your squadrons, you've got this makeup once you're in your squadron and clued within the squadron of you need a jack of all trades, you ain't going to get one, right? You might think you will, but you won't. But what you will have, if you've got a problem with the vehicle, I just go to Dave and say Dave, he's an ex-vehicle mechanic, but he's now in the SES. I want a bit of advice on something else, I'm going to speak to one of the lads of the Intelligence Corps, they've got ex-parrots there to speak to with their background and knowledge, but ex-commander is there, you know, you've got all a different group apart from yourself, so you've got all these different ties, infine tears, you know, you want a job and a task, being given a task and a job, you've got, generally when you sit down together, you've got all this knowledge, which makes it much easier. They weren't handpicked, they passed the course and he ended up serving together, and that's what I think made the SEF one of the best in my opinion. I would say that, but I've got no big mistake, not many people say it wasn't or isn't, and I don't cherish them around this very age, but in my day, that's the makeup, and that's why we're all quite so successful, because we knew how to get round obstacles, we made whatever the mission was, achieved the mission, but you've got a lot of brain power there to delve into to help solve problems before you make the plan, and before you, you know, you want the mission to be a success, so it's worth sitting down, getting all the brains together, come up, then you have to draw the planner, go and execute the plan, whatever the plan happens to be, and that can only help achieve the mission, which I've been talking about. Can we talk about selection, Em Rusty? This seems to be a popular subject, I'm quite fascinated by selection because I didn't really get my yomping legs or tabbing legs until I was 49. Really? Yeah, I ran the length for the UK, carrying a full bergen full of all my camping gear and everything, and I just made a goal of running a minimum of an ultra marathon a day, so anything over a marathon distance, and by the time I got to Hereford, so your neck of the woods or your former stomping ground, and that, as you know, some of the hills there, these 18 kilometers straight, they just go up and up and up and up, especially, is it coming out of Monmouth, that sort of area? I might be exaggerating slightly, I didn't like measure everything, but I just remember running out of Monmouth and the hill went up so far that when you got to top, you were looking down or looking across to the to the bridge. Hey, by hey and why, I think there's something up there. To be honest, as long as my compass was pointing south-ish, I was just running Rusty, I wasn't, I think my tracker on my phone was telling me which way to go, so I wasn't really that geographically minded, but I just remember running up this hill non-stop with a 15-kilogram pack on, thinking, I could never have done this when I was 18. No, you may as well. Yes, so when I think about selection, I've got like a different idea of it now, to what, when people say, Chris, why didn't you go special forces? Because it wasn't good enough. It was, to me, that was, it was, I just don't think I had what it, what it took, but you guys obviously realised that you did. As I said, I've always been, or was a sort of fitness fanatic. I'd have to be the player football, rugby and all the rest of the stuff in a different way, but it came to a point when I was in 2-9 commando, for me and a couple of the lads, you know, we gathered and said, well, I think I might just go and apply selection, I'm going to volunteer for it, and put the paperwork through, and then someone comes in and says, right, Rusty, you're on the, you're on the summer selection of 77. Now, I didn't, I'd been there in 76, because I was on training, winning 2-9 commando, there's gaps where there's no courses and stuff, as you're well aware, courses aren't there, even 65 days a year, but I just asked them to have a couple of weeks up in them. In those days, it was, yeah, you know, nobody cared where you were, there was no more of our phones, there was nothing, it took your stuff up to the broken weekends, and funny enough, even though I'd met John McAfee, he's a good friend of mine, remember John, I met him on 2-9 commando, and we did the training, he was from 5-9 commando, Law Engineers, I was 2-9 commando, sorry, he ended up in 5-9 commando, up in our broth eventually, whereas I stayed on the training wing down in Plymouth, so we were miles apart, and then, lo and behold, when I volunteered for selection, Plymouth from 2-9 went, and while we were doing pre-selection in 76, that's when I met with John again, because he came down with some of us from 5-9, they were doing pre-selection, I had no idea, just total coincidence, no mobile phones, we weren't in touch every day, but there we were, upper penny fan, they come up one side, we come up the other side, and we're back in friendship again, and we ended up doing summer of 77 selection, I thought there's one ever on record, ever, there was no water at all in the reservoirs, none, just cracks all the way, and if anybody remembers that, that was hard. Was that 76, Rusty? 77. Yeah, when we had the standpipes at the end of the street. Yeah, 77 was the, up in the Breckins anyway, I can tell you now, that there wasn't a water, and in my book, it tells you when I used to take cans of cider and stuff with me, not recommended, but hey, I wasn't going to find any water, and I'm not a great water drinker anyway, I used to take cans of beer up with me, cider in particular, and it goes in, sweat it straight out again, as I say, it's not recommended, don't say Rusty told you, but that's what I used to do, it's all in my book, and of course, we then ended up on selection together, and when we finally passed, John and I ended up in a troop together in B squadron, along with a couple of other guys, actually the guy I'm going to, you know, we all ended on the same selection, we all ended up in the same troop, the troop we wanted together was an ability troop, which was a troop, it's in two SES, so that's how we became really good friends after that, working together, living together, and we stayed all the way through until I did John's Humanity in 2011, you know, when he passed away as well, so it's, you know, memories are there, and I wouldn't swap them, I don't care what anybody says, I wouldn't swap them for what I've done, met some great people, and we're still meeting them now, with what I'm doing this day and age, so that's how we got into selection, and how we got into the squadron as well, I spent, ended up spending 15 years in the SES, it's been on the book. What is it that makes you keep going then on this, on this, on the penny fan, when so many people, I mean, you can go on selection, what, with a hundred other candidates, and they whitter you down to maybe five or six? That's been done in the past, I've heard actually that on one selection there was one guy I got through, I don't know how true that is, but on mine, yet again, 77, I was very lucky, because it was at the exact time that the parish brigade was disbanding, there was a lot of disgruntled parrots and rounding, wanted something else, some went out the army, some decided, and there's quite a big, quite a few of the parallel ads on our selection, and it was a hundred plus, but we had a good pass rate, because they said, you know, that the type of guys that were on that, I think we had 20 or 30, I don't quite remember, but some of them are right down in single figures, or used to be, I doubt it will happen this day in age, because they need numbers, in my day, I don't like to say that, but in my day, you know, that's how it worked, and it seemed to work well, the instructors want you to pass, they want you to become part of the regiment, great set of guys, especially the ones that I can relate to, that I know, the chief instructor was an absolutely brilliant guy, and underneath them, everybody worked, they wanted you to pass, it's the individual who didn't quite come up to the mark, and you can't blame them, you know, at least they've had to go and tried, okay, they've failed, but at least they've tried and failed, and then you find that the nucleus goes through, every day you sort of look in over your shoulders, and somebody else has gone, you know, but you are still focused on going straight up the middle, you know, actually bothered, unless it's a good friend, and you wonder why, and that's the way it went all the way through, you know, the first week, the first four weeks, selection process, and then the jungle train in, and everything, there was people disappearing all the time, just couldn't quite make it, maybe they thought it isn't for me after all this, and that's day one all the way through to the very last day when you finally get told that you've passed and you've gone into a squadron, you don't give up until that, you've done that, and then you're still not quite sure, and you're looking over your shoulder, you know, is there something else to come more or less, you know, but it's a day by day, and all you wanted to do was survive and be there the following day, and do that day in, day out, day in, day out, and unfortunately don't look back and forward, and that's the way I approached it, and a few of my friends approached it, did what we told, look at map read, physically, I'm not being funny, it was hard, but on the physical side I was okay with that, then moved on the final exercise when I took her along to an inn, when you're already doing 40 miles a day, I thought I knew the area so well, mapping the pocket, but when the mist came down, and you know, I quickly found it, but then I had to add on, I would say probably it doesn't sound much, probably a mile and a half or two miles, but when you don't know what the timings are, you're adrenaline, you can feel it, you know, that's when you end up stopping passing people, when you start to pass them it's great, because you know you're back on track, and you don't look back again, you just want to get to the very end where you're told that's your final arm reading, even then you don't know if you've passed, because it's all time, only the instructors know finally who've passed, even if 50 went over the line, it might only be 20 of them passed, and you're just hoping that you're in that group, because that's what you've set your heart and soul into, and that's what you've done, and then you finally get told, and you find that some of your mates have passed one or two, might have got injured, so they can come back on the week, of course, injuries are not being booted off the course, you know, they're expected on a course like that, and the guys who broke ground, of course they're trying too hard, but they wanted that will to get there and come back yet, next time they came back they passed some of them, so it's very interesting how it worked in those days, but I can tell you now as far as I remember it was never a numbers game, nowadays they're struggling to find people, lads that want to come and do it, there has to be voluntary, and now it's a big setup, much bigger than it ever was, I say best of luck to them, because I wouldn't, I don't even think I'd fancy it these days the way it is. What, how is it these days then Rusty, can you enlighten us for our friends at home? I can only go by what I get told, you know that it's such a big setup, I mean in my day everything was down in sterling lines, or rugby lines, it's all camp in the middle of heresy, you know, four squadrons worth of guys, and you had some TA squadrons out and about, which is the last, so it got so big that to move up to Creadnill, which is a huge X RAF, their base, RAF Creadnill, I know that because I used to sneak over the fence there and go into the gymnasium, because I lived in Creadnill at that time before I got married, and I knew the physical training instructor, huge place, that was all rebuilt, and now they've got a huge setup there, which isn't what I joined, I'm not saying they don't need it because they probably do, otherwise they wouldn't have done it, but when I joined and where I went to and the friends are hired and where we live, and then the rebuild of sterling lines, I think that was open 85, that's how I liked it, when I spoke to some of the guys now, and I'll be speaking to them tomorrow and Thursday, it'll be some of the stories about what they've heard and stuff that will be interesting, but it wouldn't be for me now, I wouldn't even think that I'd want to be involved anymore, but that's only because I had a good time, and I would hate to go there now and say I'll do it again, and find that it just wasn't for me, I know what comes from me. What was it like going to the jungle for the first time? The jungle was hard, he believes, I think it's secondly jungle, very, very hard, very dirty, but once again, with these instructors we had, it was rough, a hard graph every day, soaking wet all day, if it's not sweat, it's rain, it's simple, see you sweat all the way through the day, I think then you're going to go into maybe a decent night's sleep, which you never do, trees falling down all over the place, you don't know where they are, it rains all night, it's four o'clock in the afternoon, ends to peter off about the first light tissue, maybe just before you put your wet kit back on, and you start the day absolutely soaking, and then you've got the next part of whatever the job is, but it's not easy, you're not on tracks, you're going through the undergrowth, it makes it very difficult, and you know, scavengers of water, it's plenty of water, what it rains every night, food, it's limited because you can't carry that much, but you've got everything else to carry, and you know, you can't talk an awful lot, speak to people, they've got it in the jungle, that's what you're there to do, you're not there to prosecute them, so everything is disciplined, you know, stop, everybody would put their bashes up in the morning, you'd be up before first light, saturday bergam, waiting to move, so it's all disciplined, and it's all what's been tried and tested, you know, a lot of people, lads who passed the first four weeks of selecting the stuff, through the handling, they didn't like it, lots of different reasons, once again, it's not for everybody, otherwise everybody would do it, so it's another process, X number of guys go there, you can bet your life that when you finally get on the air clock to come back to the UK, there's not that many on there than there was when you started, that was general, you know, it's just not, you know, if it's not the snakes and the little hippie corals, and you know, if it's not them, it's the, all I can see is, please, you know, television, that's it, you know, but when you think back on it, when you finish it, try to say what's on the fuss about really, yeah, it's hard to work, yeah, you haven't got as many people that started it, and the lads that started it up there, and for different reasons, the whole decided, as we called it, the jack, jacking in, not for me, with that, being taken off, so you're not talking to the other guys and trying to dissuade the other people, because, you know, in a funny way, I used to enjoy it, I've been back to Belize a number of times, I've been to Grunai, I've been, I've been to a lot of jungles, you know, a lot of different jungles, and they're all different, and I just treat a jungle with respect, and I think if you treat it with respect, you're halfway to looking after yourself, you know, because there's a lot of funny things in the jungle, no bother, you know, they'll go away in the 30 months, I always remember the snake the 30 months, one of the lads tried to knock it, but they can jump, people can't realize, they can jump their own distance, so if you were going to poke something over there, it can jump its own length towards you, and it ain't frightened, so you know what, it's there, they're hard to see, aren't they, when they're curled up, they're no bigger than that, and it's so easy to put your foot on. Yeah, well, I don't remember anybody actually standing on them, but I do remember people seeing them and trying to smooth them away, you know what, just leave it alone, walk around. Yeah, the people listening, it's one of the most poisonous snakes in the world, and the one that I saw was, well, I think I was in Venezuela, in the jungle in Venezuela, and it was just sat, I don't know, a snake, it was lying there curled up, and you just wouldn't, had the Indian guy that I've been with not pointed it out, I wouldn't have seen it. Now, you don't see them all by any means, but the ones you've used, you know what, leave them alone, just leave them alone, it's not worth asking. How did you get on with the, I'm going to call it airborne insertion, because if I call it skydiving, that sounds a bit sporty. I didn't, I wasn't in air troop, I was in mobility troop, so I didn't do any, the four troops are all methods of infiltration, the boat troop as you mentioned, air troop, mobility troop, mountain troop. Well, I didn't do any, I did parachute, but I didn't do any, any of the high stuff, you know, that was left to the troop lads that were in that, so I didn't, you know, for me, I was in my troop and I was concentrating on doing what I do. Everybody has to parachute, but everybody has to do, didn't have to do the high stuff, you know, where, for those people who do it, it's a sport, you know, they love it, they do it in their own time as well, you know, everybody to their own, mate. Yes, did you like the, did you like the Paracourse? I did the Paracourse when I was into my commando, actually, and it's nothing to do really, I mean, anybody can jump out with an aircraft, you get shook with things, how to, what to do and, you know, dry training first, obviously, and all that, how to do your rolls and stuff, but, you know, the first one you do, you go up in the balloon, some people don't like the balloons, they won't jump out of the balloon for some reason. Right, didn't look down. I said, don't look down. Right, put your arms, because you're bloody reserved, that's it, soldier. Wait, wait. Once again, I don't know, you know, everyone is different, it's so quiet up there and you've got somebody looking at you and there's a gate and you're waiting for the gate to open so you can jump out and the balloon is moving around because it's up 800,000 feet, whatever, so it isn't still, but everything there is still. So when they tell you it's your turn, all you do is look up into the air and jump out, what's difficult about that, but then once the shoe opens, you're laughing, if there's something goes on in between, you've been trained what to do with your reserve shoe. So it wasn't a big deal and then the aircraft after that, the C-130s, even then we had C-130s and jumping out of them, there's a lovely jump out, the slipstream takes you out, you know, it's nice, either the back door, the tailgate, the outside, it doesn't matter. I enjoyed it, I've never paid no money to go perishing, you know, doing the things in my life, but some people who do it, then they go and pay weekends to go perishing somewhere, but other things to do, you know, just to play football on weekends and stuff. We're lucky to have done the balloon jump because it's gone now, they jump from a Cessna caravan or a Skyvan, I believe it's called. Yeah, probably a Skyvan or some sort. Now, it was a way of just, I suppose, jump out of that first, the people jump out of the aircraft, they don't want to jump out of the balloon. You know, horses for courses, I suppose, but yeah, it was a good one to start off on. There were a couple of them and they're going to the aircraft and then jump out of the aircraft. Yes, make sure you don't land on a land on a gerker from what I remember or get tangled up with one. Yeah, lots of stories. So I almost feel guilty asking you this because I saw it in your chat with Dave Ellis the other day and he said to you, what was the thing about the gloves? But I guess there's a lot of people have heard you refer to as the man with no gloves that don't actually, they've probably got an idea what it means but don't actually know. Well, there I am behind me. You can see me there with no gloves. It's all in my book, Go, Go, Go, the second book, anybody wants it. It's called Go, Go, Go, Everything's on my website. We'll put links below so people can find that and buy it, Rusty. The only thing with no gloves is we were sat watching the snooker before we went in there. We were next door in 1415 Princess Gates or the Royal College of General Practitioners, whatever you want to call it. And we were watching snooker. The store room was playing Alex Higgins in the final of the Embassy World Championship, me and John McAvies and a few others were all avid snooker. We used to play snooker wherever we went in the world if it had a full table, snooker table. So we would just sat there in 1980 and then of course normally wherever we had a break I'd put my gloves down my body armour. Somehow sat down at the table, had a brew while we were watching the snooker and I'd put my gloves onto the table instead of down my body armour at the front. And then we got the call out for the resolution, let's say call it the resolution. It dumped Lavassani outside, it executed him, shot him three times. Once that happened, now don't forget, I'd taken over as team leader on this. Okay, so the guys on my team, Blue Team, my gloves on the table, we need to get outside because we've been told to get into our final salt position, at which it took us 16 minutes to get into those positions. And then once I got outside, remember the guy's been executed, Margaret Thatcher was in power, thank God. And with that, it was get into position, you know, we now, if they don't walk out now with their hands up, we're going to assault. The guy Lavassani, he was the press attache inside the embassy. They tied him to the stairwell and shot him three times. Once his body was put outside in the doorstep, which you see on the footage, that was proof of murder on UK soil. Margaret Thatcher was a prime minister. She then passed it on to our boss, get the guys ready. We all got into position on the top of the roof. I was down on the ground level, you can see there, the team, and the guys on the balcony, this was going to be a simultaneous attack. Once we got the go, go, go, and the big distraction noise that you could hear right at the beginning. Once we got that in position, I'd go outside and realized I didn't have my gloves. But there's no way I could have gone back and collected them. So there was picture taken by the police snipers, picture there. Go, go, go, bang. In we go, 11 minutes to clear the 54, 56 rooms, the rescue 19 hostages, five terrorists perished. One terrorist got out all inside 11 minutes. And then we were all outside the building, counting for everything inside the 11 minutes. So it took 16 minutes to get into position, because we wanted to do it covertly. We didn't want to be compromised. Luckily enough, we all got into position, apart from one semi-compromise, which is a boot going through a window just prior to the assault. That was on the second floor. And then we all entered and did whatever we had to do inside to achieve the mission, which is to rescue the hostages. And that's exactly what we did. I went back, we'd accounted for everything as the other guys did back next door. Casually picked my gloves up off the table when I'd left them. And be known that I'd been caught on camera, as you can see there, by police sniper while I was gone into the building. So there's the story of the gloves. When I saw that picture, I just thought you were harder than all the rest of the boys. No, it definitely wasn't that, mate. There's some hard guys in that lot. But now it's just a circumstance. But if that picture had never been taken, arguably wouldn't be cited if they're talking. Rusty, do you think these guys that laid siege to the embassy, do you think in their wildest dreams they expected that the SAS would come knocking? I mean, they probably wouldn't have known who you were, would they? I doubt they would have known, even though... All I can remember, and I wasn't privy to any more information whilst we were inside, all I can remember is that when we were talking to Max Thurman, he's told me he's now just passed away a couple of weeks ago himself, a head negotiator, a friend of mine just talked with him. The only people they ever mentioned, what do you think the police will do now? What will the police do now? There's no mention of the military that I'm aware of. And I've had this from the top. It was all, what do you think the police are going to do now? Well, of course, Max was a policeman. Trevor Locke inside was a policeman. They wouldn't have any idea, I wouldn't have thought, that the neighbors from hell or next door were waiting. And we were. They were in 16 Princess Gate. We were in 14, 15 Princess Gate. And we were there just waiting. And we'd been there for six days, hence the film, Six Days, which comes from my book, Go, Go, Go. Yes, let's talk about that then. One question before we do. I'm guessing you're still in touch with some of the hostages? I've never touched bases with any hostages. I don't believe in it. If they ever spoke to me and said, I am such and such, and I'd be courting it enough to say something to them. I, as a professional soldier in my day, have never gone looking for the hostages to speak to. I don't think it's right. If, for some reason, we can face-to-face down the line, and it was fine. I don't have an issue with that. I certainly haven't spoken to any hostages ever since 1985 to this day now. Wow. I've never really seen them in the public eye. I've seen, obviously, I've seen the film Six Days, and I've seen a few of the documentaries that have made with people like Trevor Locking. I can't remember them massively focusing on the hostages. I can't remember many being interviewed. No, I don't know who's interviewed any of them. I don't even... I'm just trying to think now. Now, I mean, they would have had a debrief at the time, I'm certain of that, by who probably the Spirks, maybe the military, but you're right. Any of the documentaries, I've done quite a few different ones, you've probably seen, there's never been any mention of getting hostages. And I can only think that they probably don't want to be interviewed. I'm sure if they wanted to, they could be interviewed at any time. I'm certain of that. What's your thoughts, then, Rusty, because you're ready to go. Like you said, you've prepared for Six Days. Everyone's fired up. All the preparations are in place. You're running on adrenaline and you're about to put what might be your life on the line for the very last time. And just as you're going in, the BBC broadcast your secret to the whole world. What was all that about? I don't know, you know, the BBC alike. At the end of the day, there was no televisions inside the embassy that I'm aware of that were working. And that's exactly what they would do. Don't forget, they've been south outside there themselves from day one. You know, just if you come out in the front of the embassy and turn left, they were down there from day one, cameras glued to the balcony front. Apart from the police snipers who took that at the back of the building, I didn't see any film crews ever. They weren't allowed access into there. So out the front, you can imagine they've waited six days and this huge bang goes off, smoke flowing up in the air, flowing even. And then you would hear the gunshots and stuff. And of course, it's just when the cameras point onto the balcony, the four guys on the balcony there, seeing putting a charge on, firing it, going through the window, looking after Sim Harris, you know, making sure he was okay through the outside, picked him up later on. Everything was taken care of. And of course, the cameras picked it up. Don't forget this. And it's in the book that we had eight guys at the front, eight, two sets of four with smoke generators. And the idea was, if we went in, these guys would blow the smoke generators, our guys, that would obliterate all the film crews, they wouldn't be able to see a thing. Okay, this was part of the plan. And then somewhere I didn't know, it came out. And when I came out, I found out, we saw it. The first time we saw that first footage was at Regent's Park Barracks, after we got there to meet Maggie Thatcher, Margaret Thatcher, and Dennis Thatcher, William Whitemore, but on the secretary, they all come up to say, thanks for living. We saw it. We're thinking, what happened to the smoke generator's issue? Actually, Mrs. Thatcher had somehow asked a message not to blow the smoke generators. We want to show the world how we deal with terrorists, right? What a statement that is. What if it had gone wrong? That's the kind of prime minister she was. Yes. Made a thing to the guys. It ain't going to go wrong. So you weren't supposed to see anything. The world has seen it and witnessed it. And we didn't really have a lot of terrorist incidents after that. We went to much easier places. Yes. Was this rusty? This was before the Gibraltar petrol station. What do we call that? Shooting. Yes. That was a bit later in the 80s, wasn't it? That was about 87, was it? Did you know that team? Were you anything to do with that? Because of the investigations. Of course, I know a lot about it. But because of the investigations on everything at the moment of the Nile and the sat near there, it's best to forget about that one at the moment until it's sorted. And that way, there's no compromise anywhere. Nobody can say, well, such and such. It's better just to let that one run its course because we can see what's going on. And I don't really want to comment at the moment. I don't want to comment anymore at the moment. Yeah, no good point. Let's move on. The film then, how was it working with a director and a producer and a film crew? Was that a fun experience or was that challenging? No. When I first met them, you don't get the first impression of somebody. I went to London to meet the producer Matthew Metcalf. And then eventually I met the director and also Len Stander in. He was a scriptwriter for six days on Netflix right now. When I met them all, I was totally comfortable because we talked about the film, which some people said was long overdue, checked them out ages ago, but it came out in 2017. And they said quite clearly that we will go, basically, I took them, took the scriptwriter with me to Hereford, met some of the guys who took part, let them have a chat with them and make some notes. So it wasn't just me, I was the advisor, but I wanted other guys to tell their stories. So he's a scriptwriter. So we spent five days in Hereford. And that was great because he got a feeling, assured him everything, whether it all came or everything took him round, introduced him to people. I didn't, when he was interviewing or speaking to them, I just sat up to one side of it and let me get on with it. So it started off well. And then of course, when we were picking McNast and stuff, but Jamie Bell, who plays me in the film, great, great, great actor, what a quick learner. And then basically, once that was all set up, get the script done, he sent me the script about three or four times to have a look at, updated, what do I know about films, but they were good enough to do that. And then all of a sudden it was equipment, they bought as much stuff as they could replicas, and they're going to do filming in New Zealand and filming in London. So I went to New Zealand after a few weeks, where I met up with Jamie Bell and taught him how to become me, and helped the stuntmen, some of the actors, the way we used our weapons in those days, to give them a reality side. And then I'd take Jamie Bell one-on-one with me and then part of the team of two guys and four guys, just like the guys going into the window there. So I did all that with him in New Zealand, and it was good fun. Hard work started very early in the morning, finish late at night, and that's what we did. We had good facilities there. I did a presentation for the New Zealand SAS as well on the Siege. I put invited into the barracks. I did that for them in the barracks while I was there. So all in all, it was good. And when we came back, we did the last of the filming down in London, where I went down to London, and what was going on basically. And I thought everything, everything done, took me down to London. I looked at the first show in a bit, six days with another company at that time. Then something happened, then there was a bit of a break and eventually ended up coming out of Netflix in November 2017. There would be a few changes and thoughts all in all. And if you look at the many of my pages and stuff, the people who've seen it and watched it, someone watched it 10 and 12 times. So it tells you a story. Yeah, you get the odd person who doesn't like it. But in the main, they've got far more people that think it's a great film. And there's no Hollywood in it. That was one of the stipulations. There's no Hollywood. These were from the New Zealand Film Corporation. All of them, we did the film. And they did it more or less. I thought there's a couple of things you could the normal person ain't going to pick upon it anyway. So it's not worth worrying about. But it is a film at the end of the day. You've got to understand, if you get a chance, watch it on Netflix. Six days, no more six days. Yeah, my only criticism of Jamie Bell is I don't think he was handsome enough, right? No, I agree. I told him. So I did my face lift. He's only human, no Rusty. Well, I can tell you a story, shall I? He's a dancer, right? He's a dancer, Billy Elliot and all that stuff, which had never been new until he wasn't the first choice at one stage of another guy. He tried, I think I thought he was trying to be greedy. Anyway, they got rid of him. And Jamie, when I was in New Zealand with him, I was teaching him the nine millimeter pistol high Browning, high power Browning, teaching him how to hold it, shooting all this type of stuff. And he couldn't quite get it right because his feet moved like a dancer. Now, nobody's going to pick that up on the film. But I'm saying to him, look, Jamie, just do this. You're an actor, you can learn. Sure enough, he gets it more or less, right? Not a problem for him. But then you take your eyes off him for five minutes and he's gone back to this. He said, Rusty, look, I've spent all my time, he's really serious dancing. You know, I've done this, I've done ballet and I said, Jamie, how about this? Just remember this. He's like, well, Rusty, I think dance. He got it. He got it. Rusty, don't dance. Rusty, don't eat and dance. We need to get that t-shirt made up. Yeah. But that's the fact. He brought it home. Can we talk about Lewis Collins? Because I believe he was a friend of yours. No, he's not a friend of mine. I met him. He used to come to the camp. He used to say, he just wanted to know how the SCS, basically he just wanted to come and get pissed with the lads. Simple as that. So I met him in the camp a couple of times. Soldier-eye, Pete Winner, the South. Just keep an eye on what he's doing. Make sure he's okay. Just leave him alone, basically. Just make sure that he's not making the dick of himself, which he didn't. He got drunk with the guys. It was simple. But that was the paladrine club that used to be in the camp in those days. That was our social club. Wednesday and the Saturday, I think it was. But he'd want to come up. First of all, he was an active well-known and decent bloke. And there was a few lads including myself, where I asked, keep an eye on what's going on. We're up, it's anyway. So there was no hassle, ever. Just another guy in the club, the other guys, women and beer, and the rest of the history. Nice, that guy. Yeah, I was chatting to one of his friends a couple of days ago, actually. A chat called Mark Ryan, who in the film, who dares wins, plays one of the bad guys, the guy with a shock of black hair and a black beard. Mark is now the voice of Bumblebee in the Transformers movie series. He's had a good old chat with Mark. And I said to him, what was the score there, Mark, with Lewis? Because people on my podcast are always saying different stuff. Was he in the TASAS, this kind of stuff? And Mark said that he got injured, I think, on his first PARA course to becoming TA PARA. I believe I might have this wrong. But then he went back and completed the course. And then I think he was going to be a reservist in the SAS. But his notoriety was too, he was too well known? More or less, that's what I know of him as well. He's a TA PARA's. And then I think, of course, he was a well-known race actor, whatever. Whoever decided, decided that he wasn't going to, first of all, fit in when he got there. I don't mean fit in as a person, but because of what he was standing in those days, maybe it was too high a profile. I haven't seen it written down anywhere, but the stories I've heard were fitting with what you're saying quite well. Yes. It's part of the reason I wish I'd never started a podcast is I'm probably too high profile now to join, maybe next year. Obviously. Rusty, what about the Falklands? What were you doing at that time? Well, the Falklands, when you think about it, it was now back in 1982, started in April, finished in June the 14th. I was doing a language course in camp. I was doing a Portuguese language course. When we were told, I say it's finished, you've got a job. Some of the lads had already gone down south. They were taken off the course, B Squadron, then prepared, and eventually ended up down south as well. We went on to the island and then hung about doing training and everything else for something specific, which ended up being, was going to be an attack from the Argentina mainland. Which could have been quite a disaster. We did all the training for it and stuff, and then the job we were going to do to start with, that was sort of bend and sideline because there was also what was going on. We had that, let me have the helicopter crash there, which 90 lads perished enough. Things changed and our job was to attack the mainland and then kill the pilots that would fly in the super heteronauts and try and get the extra missiles that were left. I think there were three of them. And then I got the aircraft so they couldn't fly them. Whatever pilots we could get over, and then escaped to Chile on foot or by whatever. It was cut in the long story short. Obviously, again, it's all in the book, the Regiment 15 minutes of the SAS. And actually in there, it goes into great detail of what happened on the flight, the disaster that lived in the kit, when you got to parachute into the South Atlantic. You see all your kit go to the bottom of the Atlantic, you jump out behind it, not knowing who's going to pick you up. These involved 16-port waves snowing at times when we jumped out of the aircraft. It's all highlighted very, very much in the book. And the attack would have probably been a disaster. We lost our almswrecking crew. They got compromised, so we wouldn't have about anybody in the ground. And eventually, the operation was pulled. And once again, I was told it was by Stature. We're still prime minister of the time. But yeah, we only had one aircraft. Anyway, the other aircraft had to turn around with half a squadron on and go back. But I was carried on and we ended up jumping into the Atlantic and taken on board and to the boats, given a short run. So we didn't have any kit or weapons at the bottom of the Atlantic. We had to wait for one of the squadrons to come out and check their weapons off them. And then who all ended on the 14th of June? It's a detailed account of what Ricardo, Ricardo, which is all in the book. Yes. And I'll just say again, friends at home, there'll be a link below for Rusty's books if you want to grab yourselves a copy. And the Portuguese, Rusty, was that to go in Tangoda or Mozambique by any chance? So me, never got told that. So if you're on a Portuguese course, if you get the language done first, certainly it's basic and then depending where the job would have come up. But like I did the Arabic course and the Malay course, you know, it's just another course, really. We never did finish it. It was that. Yes. Rusty, just to clarify, did you jump into the Falklands or are you talking about the regimen as a B squadron? There was different squadrons at different jobs. We went from the island core. Anyway, we flew a C-130, two C-130s, took off with a squadron, half a squadron in each. One of the aircraft had a fault turn around and went back. We carried on and the ships were on the excursions around. And our job was to jump in to the Atlantic and be picked up and then taken onto the boats. I can't remember if it was andromeda, one of them, much less. And then once we were on board there, we were preparing for another task that we were half a squadron missing at that stage. Yes. So yeah, we jumped in, not directly onto the Falklands itself, to the boats that were on the excursions zone, just on the edge. And once we were on there, we were then transferred to the RFLs and stuff. But we were still half a squadron missing. And then if it did show up, but the war ended up finishing before we actually got into the past thousand. What's it like jumping into the South Atlantic then? It's quite funny. I'm sure they said, oh, we'll jump from a thousand feet today instead of 800, because visibility wasn't very good. As you're going down in the door open, basically the idea was to throw your kit out in pallets. And then stick of guys would jump out behind that. So hopefully they would end up in the same area, making it easy for the people picking you up. Because you can imagine the waves was white down below. So when we jumped out, when we saw the pallets go out, we don't like keeping the equipment on, and the shoe went one way, and the pallets went off. And that happened until we got rid of everybody that was on the aircraft facility with their keeping equipment. Well, that happened. But nobody had any equipment when they got there. The only thing that was actually found of mine, you know, the old parabag, you know, the rubbish you jump in, they found that, they found other people's kid, but all the weapons and stuff, the heavy stuff is gone. And it brought mine back in all mine. I don't say it had a blue tracksuit, sport, you know, the blue tracksuit in there, this is for wearing on board and stuff like that, a jumper. Everything I didn't need was in the parabag. All my bergen and my personal belt kit are weapons of the bottom and south Atlantic. So I was walking around on board. We know the white, the navy collars with the white collars and stuff off. I was walking around with all that stuff on, you know, until we got it out again. Because all I had was what stood up in inside the dry bag, as they called it. You know, you never survive in the Atlantic without it. And then you just bob around. Then you see the guy, see a knife. And I don't want my shoulder. You know, because you have a life jacket on and like that. I saw the knife and you just slip the life jacket and pull this up through the life jacket in the corner, corner B, remember, Kevin, he tied the boat. Then they bob around and pick something else up and look around back to the boat, climb up the side of the boat. They won't pick everybody up. I think whilst everybody did get picked up eventually, but then we got it all over the place. We didn't lose anybody. But quite an experience, actually, because as you jumped out, you could see the snow and then there'd be a gap you could see a boat. But then, once you went through that, and it's not in your reserve shooter way, it was okay because it was just water, but cold. So that was the experience. I wouldn't pay to do it either, but somebody will. Leave that to the taxpayer. They pay that one for you. Rusty, it's been absolutely brilliant chatting, extremely enlightening. I'll put your links below the video. And can you put my website on there as well? Yes, of course. We're going to liaise with David Ellis, aren't we, and have a chat about what we could perhaps talk about? Yeah. Next week, we'll respect you. We're just waiting for the firm, what happens, as we mentioned. Yes. And we'll talk about the NI Veterans then as well, shall we? Yeah. Yes. Brilliant. Massive thank you again, Rusty. To all our friends at home, big love to you all. Please look out to yourselves if you could like and subscribe. And thank you so much to everyone who's supported the Patreon. It's that link at the bottom of the screen. It's just £1.99 a month, folks, to keep these stories alive, to support our veterans, to maintain our freedom, can we say. And many of you have come on board to pay that £1.99 to let us keep the channel going. So thank you for that. If you pay instantly, there's loads of perks. You get all my books, wherever they are up there, for free in ebook. And you get the chance to come as VIPs, free of charge to my annual talk. And that's it. Massive thanks again to Rusty. See you soon. Thanks to everybody. Thank you.