 Hi folks, welcome to this webcast which is a part of MHPN's online conference, Working Better Together. My name is Chris Doleman. I'm from Emerging Minds, the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health and I'd like to welcome you to this webcast today. We're presenting a stream within this conference called Around Trauma and the Impact of Adverse Childhood Experiences. So yeah, welcome to those both viewing this right now as well as people that are watching this down the track. Welcome. Before we go further I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we've gathered today as well as where you are and pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging and of course acknowledge the ongoing connection that the traditional owners of the lands have in so many ways. So I'd also like to welcome our panel today. So welcome to Sarah, welcome to Jackie and welcome to you as well Ben. We're really delighted to be gathering here to really talk about some very challenging and pertinent and interesting practice challenges that practitioners face when working with families in relation to adversity and in relation to the effects of adversity on child mental health. So I'd also like to introduce you to some of the learning outcomes, just remind you of those. So at the conclusion of today's webinar we're hoping to have contributed to your understanding of the challenges faced by practitioners facing adversity when they do presented services and what worries them and how can practitioners respond to these worries and concerns. We're also hoping to explore some of the professional practices that can support parent-child relationships as they overcome adversity and also explore how practitioners can support parents through adversity whilst still enabling parents to maintain a focus on their children's social and emotional well-being. So this webinar will be focusing around four common practice challenges. We'll be looking at around how practitioners can have conversations with parents when practitioners hold concerns about the safety and well-being of children, how practitioners can respond to parents who may be holding negative or ambivalent views about their children as well and also how practitioners can work with families facing multiple adversities, perhaps seemingly overwhelming adversities and how they can do that in a way that also helps parents to hold onto hope and be mindful of children's experience in all of that and also how practitioners can help parents focus on the social and emotional well-being of children in ways that aren't stigmatising for parents as well. So there's some of the themes that we hope to get to today. So this webcast is actually the second that we're offering today. We had one a couple of hours ago around lunchtime where we had a panel of parents sharing their know-how, giving their insights and perspectives around these challenges. And I know that Ben and Jackie and Sarah were viewing that and were really drawn to some of the particular sentiments and perspectives of parents. So I'm looking forward to hearing a bit about that from each of you as well. So there are a few kind of logistical things I'd just like to go through with you. Firstly, we'd really value your contribution to our conversation in terms of if you're interested in submitting a question, you're really welcome to do that. There's a tab on the bottom right-hand corner of your screen so please send those through. We also have some supporting resources through the Emerging Minds resource library tab, which is also on the bottom of your screen. If you're having trouble with technical matters, there's a frequently asked questions tab at the top of the screen. And just a reminder to click on the full screen view, that'll kind of make all of this work a lot better in terms of from where you're sitting. So you would encourage you to do that as well. There's also a, at the end of today, we'd really like to invite you to complete an exit survey, a feedback form, which ultimately I guess helps us get better at what we do. And so we'd really value your contribution there. And that tab's at the top of the screen. So I hope I've covered up on all those tabs that are on your screen. But yeah, please certainly make use of those. So I think they're the main things that we need to set the scene for. Have I forgotten anything? That's probably it. Yeah, great. So let's take a close look now at that first practice challenge. And all of these, as you know, haven't come out of thin air. They've come from practitioners that have viewed webinars that we've offered previously with MHPN, as well as, you know, from our consultations with services and emerging minds. And so they're pretty, pretty pertinent and I guess pretty critical, I think, when we consider children's overall well-being. So the first challenge that we're hoping to sort of speak a bit about is a question, you know, how can practitioners have conversations with parents about child protection concerns without shaming and silencing and alienating them? And actually I said to the parents that we met with earlier a bit about how I appreciate this question because it kind of signals both a couple of concerns that practitioners have, doesn't it? A concern to not shame or silence on alienate parents, but also a concern to respond to perhaps concerns they might have in relation to children's safety and well-being. I was wondering, Ben, Sarah, Jackie, whether, you know, in terms of even, you know, from what the parents spoke about earlier, and I know you were taking notes and paying attention to what they said, you know, what kind of stood out to you from what they said, from what, you know, from what Colleen and Emmy and John spoke about earlier in terms of what's important from a parent's perspective that practitioners did, what stood out. I think we were talking and we were talking about something that really stood out was that quote of silence and shame. There was already silence and shame that's there. And if we don't kind of have that conversation, we add to the shame because the parents already know that it's there. And often if we don't talk about it, the parents know what's going on in their life. They're the experts in their life. And if we don't have that conversation around the child protection concerns, it's almost like the elephant in the room that no one wants to pay attention to. And we're not going to ask about it because, you know, and like I said, they're the experts. They know why we're there. And if we just don't have that delve into that conversation or actually just be honest about that conversation, we take a bit of power away from the family by not having that conversation. I guess that's what I was interested in when you said like it's the elephant in the room. What's the effect of just of it remaining the elephant in the room on family? So what would you say from your perspective has been could be the effect of just it remaining the elephant in the room? Well, I guess if something as important as the welfare of a parent's child is on their mind and then they're not sure if it's on your mind, they're going to start questioning us. Why haven't we got the courage to face something with them? But I think they're going to wonder whether we're questioning them. Are we thinking that they somehow haven't got the wherewithal to hear difficult information? I think it feeds into some kind of amongst other things, some kind of power imbalance where we're either assuming that they're simply not able to hear stuff and that adds to the shame or that somehow we know best about what we should talk about and what we shouldn't talk about when it's their child's well-being that's at stake and parents want the best for their children. I think it was John that mentioned the importance of the practitioner being in the corner together. What did that metaphor bring to mind for you? I think that the big piece around the connection that you have in the relationship and I think the foundation of that connection is really the trust. So trust comes being a consistent person, a practitioner in their life perhaps but also just through open, clear, transparent conversations. And you have to take in people's lived experience. So when we talk about the families know what's going on in their life, they've also had their own story and we just assume that people know what is best for their child or they know what child protection issues are. If you've had, especially when we're talking of intergenerational trauma and we've had in a cultural context for this country where we've had people that have been stolen generation and through generation of being removed and not parented, how do you know to parent if you haven't been parented? And so you're doing the best you can with the skills you've got and sometimes people thinking that they are doing great parenting without realising that that's not okay to be doing or people are looking at that as that's not okay to be parenting like that. But their lived experiences, well that's my lived experience and that's what I've known to be okay and if no one doesn't tell me anything else, I'm thinking that's okay and for us then what happens is someone knocks on the door and takes your children away without that conversation of what I was doing was wrong. So that power automatically gets taken away because people are scared to have that conversation around child protection and in the work that we've done with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island families a lot of the parents are telling us no one told us that there were these concerns until they knocked on the door and took our kids. And how was that for those families? Of course it's really hurtful because we had all these services in here and we thought we were doing great and we've got I'm engaging with this service and I'm engaging with this service but no one actually told us that they were going back and putting reports in. So where is the choice and control in that for families? So families need choice and control and being able to have an honest conversation with families or with parents around actually what I'm seeing here I'm going to have to go back and put a report in but what can we do to help with that? Because we're going to have to put a report in but what are some of the goals and where are some of the achievements that we're going to work towards? So when I put the report in I can actually say actually but what we're going to be doing is this is what we're going to be working with with the parents. But if we don't have that conversation we just go and put the report in again there's a lack of trust. So the reporting in so to speak has to be accompanied by something? That's right. And so what would you call it that it needs to be accompanied by? So what is that going to do? So what is the therapeutic intervention that's going to happen with that? A point in that I think is this word authenticity that I know John, Emmy and Colleen all mentioned which I think as a practitioner it's important we bring that authenticity and having clear, open, tough conversations is part of that. And so I think in talking about some of these really tricky areas I think really working on the foundational pieces of that which is building connection. Listening with acceptance without judgment bringing a curious lens to that exploration and really kind of meeting some of that shame with empathy which is really the heart of connection. I think it's a balancing act for a practitioner but yeah I think authenticity was a word that stood out for me. And vulnerability. There's something in having those honest conversations when you're a practitioner when you're kind of going actually it's okay for me to be vulnerable to. So I'm going to have this hard conversation with you and that puts me in a vulnerable position but then we can share that space of vulnerability whereas if I'm always going to come in without some vulnerability or actually I'm the expert or I'm the person in charge then you don't sit in that space together. Yeah I can sense that feeling as a practitioner, that vulnerable. What do you think are the steps that help to create I guess steps forward around that vulnerability if you're not having those conversations? That takes a lot of self-reflecting as a practitioner because we often ask our families or our mothers and fathers to do a lot of self-reflecting then we have to do that as practitioners ourselves. So where's our self-reflecting in this? What am I adding to this? Am I adding something that's useful? Or am I adding to the shame? Because that is where our vulnerability comes in if we don't self-reflect what are we doing to be able to assist the family if we can't sit somewhere vulnerable because that's something that in my culture is something we do quite well. We had only Mary Rose from Daily River that gave the gift of the deity and that's what we call heart-based listening that real listening to the story with vulnerability and empathy and being able to self-reflect of what belongs to me in this story and what belongs to the client and then being able to go oh actually does that belong to the family or is that my belief that's coming through in that story is to be able to be self-reflective enough to be able to keep your biases and values and beliefs there and keeping the family story here. In addition to some of the things you said are there other things do you feel that need to kind of precede those upfront authentic vulnerable kind of conversations other things that need to precede those conversations with parents at all you know like I'm just wondering what might also need to accompany that or become before that. There's even like I guess the environmental factors you know from my OT lens which I don't know about you guys Jackie and Sarah if there's consideration around stepping into an environment a clinic environment and how you can make any changes to that to help a level of comfort of safety internal sense of safety for the parent. I think like from one of the things that I think is really important that we pay attention to that fits in with what you're saying is actually where do I sit internally with regards to the family I'm with can I hold a genuine position of care do I genuinely embrace the belief that children need to be with their parents where possible do I genuinely understand that parents want to be good parents that children want to have good relationships with their parents and that that is a fundamental desire for families and I think one of the things I think a lot about is am I holding that position genuinely and do I hold it right through to my core because if I don't then I'm going to transmit something mixed or unclear in everything that I do so I think from my perspective as a practitioner there's paying attention to the external environment and there's paying attention to my internal environment This is probably a tricky question is there something that you might notice about your practice that would confirm for you you're holding that position or even something that might alert you that you've drifted a bit from that when you're doing the work with families I guess that's a question for all of us really but I'm wondering what can alert us to that holding what you're describing or letting it slip a bit I guess One of the things that I do is I monitor my physical state a lot so I've got a road map that I suppose I've developed over a number of years where I can feel physically different depending which state I'm in or whether I'm drifting so I pay a lot of attention to body sensation and I've learned to associate certain sensations with being open but it often comes with a sense of being energised even in the face of really complicated conversations feeling kind of often quite moved by conversations and for me often feeling somewhat in awe of what a family I'm sitting with is managing then I know that I'm probably sitting in the place I want to be in and when those things start to go missing then I need to think like you're saying self-reflect and wonder why has that pushed me into something that's fragile or difficult for me or why have I drifted that's usually fear for me I don't know what it is for other people It's interesting to think about what agencies or organisations can do to support practitioners to hold the kind of space that you're proposing rather than just individualising it as to a pass or fail for practitioners to do that in a way what organisations or agencies that you might have some familiarity with to support practitioners to take care around all of that so for me it's what I find is it's in the relationship that I have with the family so are we connecting are we having an honest dialogue do I feel like there's authenticity in the room from myself it's about relationship and connection so we've got to have relationship and connection with the family that we're working with and so I say connect at every level connect wherever we can connect and ego take ego out what do you mean take ego out so ego comes with when you have these hard conversations people are going to get upset these are their children so when I'm having a conversation saying look this is bordering on child protection I expect them to get upset but of course if they didn't get upset because I'm going to now tell them that I'm going to go and put it for them to get upset and I might get a mouthful and that's okay because that's not an attack on me if I start going oh this family actually it's not an attack on me this family and to me it actually shows strength because what I'm saying is actually if they're getting upset this shows that they have this real care for their children so if I brought my ego into that how dare they attack me then I've lost so has you interpreting their response in a particular helpful way for you what does that enable make more possible in your practice to see their response in that way do you think because to me it shows that they have that I'd call it I'd want to see a reaction and if I didn't and it also creates rupture and repair so rupture and repair happens in all relationships so if we think that that's not going to happen in a client practitioner relationship you know we just think we're just going to go along this fine and dnd without some kind of rupture happening then we're kind of kidding ourselves aren't we so you know of course there's going to be something that comes up that sets the relationship but it's in the repair and if we're going to be talking to parents about their children and how they rupture and repair their relationships then we've got to demonstrate that in the relationship that we have with our clients I wonder whether some of what you're saying is also quite relevant for the next practice challenge that we were hoping to kind of get on to a bit which was how can practitioners respond to parents who hold negative or ambivalent opinions about their children that could be adversely affecting the child's well-being um yeah and again this reflects I guess a concern for practitioners because we know don't we from our own practice that sometimes we hear these sentiments from parents that are very diminishing or degrading I guess of kids at times so this can pose some dilemmas what to do about this how to respond again you know Emmy and John and Colleen spoke a bit about some of that with their particular things that caught your attention from what they said that kind of then linked into some of your own understandings or knowledge about this yeah I know that they talked about building off the strengths their own kind of individual strengths as parents okay and I think that's a really important place for us to start as practitioners you know it's you can get lost in the assessment tool you're using or the certain organisational processes that you need to be kind of ticking off and I think if you just meet the parent where they are with their own strengths one activity I like to do particularly with kids and parents is you know play and you know play being a primary occupation for kids but in that you have these conversations where you get the child to reflect on their own strengths and often some of the their favourite activities they talk about is spending time with their parents I think that kind of shift in perspective is really important and helps the parent to start seeing I guess positive interactions I know Colleen talked about that a lot and can be tricky seeing some of those positive interactions with her kids so at time so just kind of helping to reshift that lens towards things that are already kind of doing really well together is important yeah I'm sure what you guys think around that I think I was something that I think John said about how difficult it is to find yourself feeling negative about your children and he used the example of resentment it's kind of like who can you talk to about feeling resentful towards your child and I guess one of the things that that really brought to mind for me and something that I do a lot is to think about what must it be like for a parent who probably set out a joyful relationship with their child to find themselves feeling so entrapped in a kind of negative space and feeling compelled to say these things to their children that I'm sure are not part of the plan not part of what someone wanted so I think that it's actually quite important to have some empathy for the parent about how awful it is to find yourself feeling negative towards your child and make some space for that conversation and the other thing that was in there was about the story what's the story behind why this parenting experience has become so difficult at this time what's that related to is there something traumatic in the background that if we could do it better we could bring that compassion and understanding together to bear on that negativity so that's something else that I was really interested in I could ask you about when you said about Jackie about making space for that for the parent to speak about their view of their child and these experiences of resentment or whatever how do you kind of make that space how do we make that space for parents to speak into that are there particular inquiries or other things that are said that kind of enable that space to be created do you think I'm quite I'm quite over in making some guesses if I think something like that is happening for a parent and it's really hard for that parent to speak about that making guesses or offer some thoughts about what they might be experiencing just as an invitational starting a conversation an invitation that this is something we can do here I was interested to use that language around making guesses or offering thoughts that suggests a particular positioning I guess of your own views around that link to other things you think that are important in working with parents at that time yeah look at I think one of the other things that came through for me was this power imbalance and the idea of the practitioner as the expert and I like to move a long way from that and think of myself as having some expertise in child development trauma or whatever it is but that I bring some expertise to the table which I can hopefully marry with the expertise that the child brings and the parent brings and together we might be able to understand something but really want to move a long way from that idea of practitioner as expert we just have expertise I think normalising actually we're not going to love our child every part of the day when sometimes it's actually quite normal to feel some kind of angst or resentment about a child you're not the only person that has these sports running through your head so normalising and saying actually it's okay with maybe the circumstances that you're in or with what's happened in your life of course this may be where you're up to at the moment but that doesn't mean that we're going to be here forever like to give some clear glows right now we might be here but we can create change and something that came up in that last conversation was that emotional literacy because not everyone has had the experiences in life to be able to name how they're feeling so that emotional literacy is really something that we work on a lot with our parents and caregiving sensitivity we call it caregiving sensitivity so in simple conversations because they don't need to be big therapeutic sessions but in simple conversations of being able to get the parent to see the child as their own individual with their own individual personality and characteristics did you see the way if it was a baby did you see the baby your baby just looked at you when you talked did you see the way baby actually followed you with the gaze of the eyes so it kind of puts the child back into the parent's mind oh yeah actually I did notice that or actually I noticed every time Johnny does that you give him a bit of a high five or you smile at him so really you work on what's already there that you're seeing so be really observant of what you're looking at and counter that with as much as you might be feeling some resentment there's always other things that you're doing as well that are really good and really positive because often we focus on what's not and that's just society in a general so parents are so way down of how I should be behaving but there's always other stuff that you're doing that's really good as well and concentrate more on that than or negative and give the emotional literacy because people don't know we're all angry or we're sad and there's always things that are in between that a lot of people don't know how to name yeah but the anger inside of the most available kind of descriptions I just building on that I think sometimes giving skills or education can be really helpful and what I find talking about we're looking at behaviour and often we can kind of zoom in on behaviour and not be looking what's under the surface and I think often when we provide some education to parents OTs talk a lot about regulation and so we start breaking this down around what's impacting the body the emotions, the environment but into woven in that is this idea of co-regulation what we feel our kids feel is this idea of attachment is this idea of relationships and the importance of relationships you know I think at times that kind of information is really helpful and you know building in certain phrases or concepts you know the circle of security was talked about you know the hands on the circle and returning back when that cup's empty and these are things that really make sense to parents and I worked with a dad recently and we did use Dan Siegel's hand model of the brain to help him understand about his child flipping the lid and he said oh gosh that's what happens to me when I get home every day so I think that information can be really helpful in changing perspectives particularly when we're focused in on behaviour I think skills and building that education can be helpful so we call it like edgy care so you're giving the information but in a caring way because you're actually educating to care so we use that flipping the lid a lot and it's so easy and parents get it so often we think that knowledges to be shared so in our culture when we get knowledges to be shared yet we somehow try to keep knowledge actually or think that parents aren't in the right space to hear this kind of knowledge if it helps them understand where their children are coming from because often the child's the sacrificial lamb you know we're coming here because the child's behaviour is out of control but often when you start working with that self-reflection comes in do you know because you start going because we've done that at the moment what's happening is he's in his lizard brain because we use the lizard brain and then the dad turned around and said is that why I act a lot the way I do so you know then that comes in and then it changes the conversation and so giving that edgy care often leads to self-reflection but it's easy to talk about the children especially when you've got so much trauma in your life so if you've got a lot of trauma it's easier to talk about the children and talk about yourself and then as you start working with the children their story comes through there's this trust that builds because actually I'll trust you first with the kids and then I'll see how you go there and then I'll be able to trust you with my story so it's creating that safety I can see where that's going and now I trust you and that can open up conversations around the parents' relationship with the children and can help parents step into other aspects that perhaps are harder to talk about yeah I think you hear the other thing we do is use tools I don't know if anyone's heard the three houses we use the three houses which kind of gets the parents to think of what it is that they hope what is it that they hope for their family for their parent for their parenting their dreams we talk about the foundation what are the things that could cause cracks in that some of those issues so that's where we can then start having conversations around substance abuse you know DV because actually they might be the things that might be able to add to those so that's where that conversation of bringing DV and substance abuse comes in and those things are brought into the context of a conversation about hopes though dreams or whatever actually I'm wondering whether some of what you're saying might also again link in with a further challenge that has come up from practitioners and that is a bit about how can practitioners support parents that are facing immediate and multiple and sometimes overwhelming adversities so parents who are facing those adversities how can practitioners support them to maintain hope and positive and mindful perspectives around children so again was there something from what the parents said earlier that kind of stood out to you about that that had you thinking about other things that you know from your own practice it's that overwhelming there's so much going on and when we get problems saturated all the problems get really really so everything becomes that problematic that actually it's better that I just don't do nothing because it's all so heavy so just helping navigate the problems like what is it that we call it like bag worries what's the biggest worry right now so what can we stick in that bag so what are the three biggest worries in your life right now and we'll work with those three worries because otherwise you can get drawn into there's all of this stuff but really narrowing it down to actually what are the three biggest things that are going on for you and then being able to work on those and scaffold because often what we do is with clients that are in crisis I will put a referral here I'll put a referral there and then we got 10 services and it becomes overwhelming so scaffold around the service or the therapeutic service that you're offering around if this is the biggest problem right now if drug and alcohol is the biggest problem right now then let's concentrate on drug and alcohol if child protection is the biggest concern right now let's concentrate on child protection and what do you think that enables for parents to sort of do that focusing on the biggest worry or the bag because it makes them available for that particular problem so actually right now I can concentrate on this and I know I've got a clear idea of what I need to do feeling like I'm being pulled in five different or six different directions actually this is what I'm working on I've got a plan and I've got a goal and this is where I'm heading so it gives them a direction and helps them navigate because if you make the plan, if a family makes the plan, if the family say this is what I want to work on then they're going to, it's a lot more than if I say actually this is what you need to work on actually find out what does the family want to work on, what does the family think what they just need is at the moment because often we go in with our own agenda actually let's find out what the family's agenda is and what it is that they think is going on for them because that's most likely the problem you know Jackie there are some things that are resonating for you than what Sarah just said yeah one of the things that I was thinking about was the previous panel talked a lot about breaking things down so I think there's that sense of how do you think together to kind of break things down into manageable pieces and find things you can get an early win with getting an early win just something that you might be able to make a real difference to and I think one of the things that I quite enjoy about my current workplace is that we bring therapeutic work and practical case management together into one service and what I really like about that is that we're not then stuck with either trying to operate from a therapeutic framework or operating with practical support but we can do both and if doing something practical is going to get you a little bit of space to help the family solve one problem then you might be able to take a next step and so that breaking breaking things down description that was used from the parents earlier like you spoke a bit about doing that in a way that kind of is together, is collaborative with parents are there some ways that you find the most helpful to do that Jackie or others as well I mean I guess it's really about actually having a proper conversation about what is the family's situation what are their needs, what's their current story what are they what are they struggling with like you were saying but I think something we've spoken about in another setting is also bringing that sort of observational capacity to look for the minute moments where the hope is still there or the connection is still there or the relationship is still working so always looking for the strengths that currently exist trying to use anything that is already there and extend it rather than trying to impose new things that come from our own frameworks I love that phrase mining moments as though why did you add minute to the moments kind of description what is it you're wanting us to understand by even adding that because I think our lives are made up of breaths they're made up of small things it's a series of small moments that come together to make a life and if we can attend to each of those moments as they come and go and build something so if a parent is doing one thing really well in the midst of all of the difficulty then they might be able to do that for a few more moments or add something to that but when you're problem saturated you can't find those moments easily yourself sometimes it's that balance of acknowledging how difficult it is right now and not losing sight of the strength I really resonate with what Jackie was saying in giving parents permission to just connect with their kids and I think John mentioned that in the last session just giving a framework to say five minutes a day following the lead of your child in play, really delighting and sharing joy can have really significant benefits on their social and emotional development and have permission to do that it's really quite powerful and I think it's practical as well when there's such a busy perhaps a chaotic environment around them at times and just having five minutes to connect I think other things that really help is this idea of any social networks that are around them that we can draw on as strengths and often we'll kind of set up a bit of an activity schedule with families a week, a tile and grout so here are the activities and what are the networks that are kind of holding you together in those which can be hard for families when they're in that space to find that five minutes so you might ask them and they'll like no, I didn't have the time so we can either add to the chaos sometimes as practitioners we do add into the chaos because we say we don't come in with our own agenda but a lot of the time we're driven by our own service you know KPIs that we have to hear to so I think for challenge for practitioners is to challenge the workplace and kind of go actually I've got an hour with this family so in that hour I can help I can set up an activity or I can take the family because we're resourced we're privileged you know for some of us that work in some of these organisations we have the resources of work cars so we can pick the family up and take them to the park and model what joint delight looks like so actually let's go to the park and have a picnic that is a therapeutic session we start to make something really difficult when actually a therapeutic session when a family is so under stress finding that half hour, 45 minutes to have a break and actually go I can breathe and I can delight in my child today in this 45 minutes in this time that is therapeutic work and we forget about that because we kind of go we have to stick to certain rigid ways of therapy I know we talked about this previously I had a session with a family at the start of the year and there was a lot of she was feeling quite overwhelmed so we just got a piece of paper and I just started writing on the table just writing out all the kind of things happening and drawing on what Jackie was saying we just started to prioritize those really key things and then writing out the steps and anyway at the end we had a really clear goal between the visits and it was often about three months until I was going to see them again so I said I'll send you an email with the information and she's like no do you mind if I take that piece of paper with me and I said absolutely and so I put it into a bag and so I went off and wrote my report and it was the kind of words in the report and next time I saw her I said how was everything and how was the report and she said to be honest I didn't read it I've still got the piece of paper here and I use that and that was her own words I was just writing out the key things that she was saying to me and helping her to work through that and I think that in itself is hard to hold on to as a practitioner when there is obligations but if we can hold that it's important so we've taken families because resource poor sometimes these families are resource poor they're just living day to day sometimes we have to be really careful about what we're setting up to make sure that families don't fail maybe if you can take kids down to the park or take the kids to somewhere and then you've got no bus tickets you've got no car so think about some of the families that are coming or read a common thing that people do if you read a story to a child let's remember that some people in this country English is their third language even though we're the First Nations people English is a foreign language to this country so sometimes and we were denied education so saying to a family or read a book to a child is something that might happen in the western culture but if you put a culture content on it that's not something that's an everyday occurrence telling a story verbally is how we how we tell stories we do it through a verbal or through art so thinking outside that European cultural lens too is really important when we work with First Nations or when we work with culture diverse because we often stick a European lens on top of everything and we have to remember it doesn't always work that way for certain families so we've done things where supply some art materials and the family come back with their own portrait of what their family might look like or one thing we do a lot is I don't know when it became policy that transporting clients enables them or creates dependency when you've got families that are in the brisk of DCP or Department of Child Protection there is a lot of they have to do so much you've got to go to this parenting course you've got to go to drug and alcohol so trying to find a little bit of time to fit in a therapeutic service can be really hard but you can have 45 minutes in a car ride getting from one appointment to the other and the conversation that comes out of that is quite can be quite therapeutic and you get a lot in that conversation because there is something in the car even but people go oh no that's enabling so finding your time and not adding extra stress to the parent that's already stressed out because there's so many demands already on them I was thinking some of what you were saying as well Sarah links in with a question in relation to families who perhaps have good reason not to trust the systems that the practitioner is representing this is a question from May yes the family's got good reason not to trust the system the practitioner's representing maybe due to their own past or cultural inappropriateness the dominant culture kind of affecting families and communities in unhelpful ways so this question in relation to steps that we can take when families having difficulties connecting with each other and are being responded to by those service systems again not a question to all of us in relation to that what steps can we take when the family is not responding having difficulties with each other difficulties with each other or with the service but are being also responded to by a system they don't trust for example as well you have some responses to that question I always talk about that shame comes back in again and shame if we look at what shame does shame either attacks self or attacks others or it actually makes us withdraw and often people think that they don't want to engage actually there's something in that not wanting to engage and most of the time that's shame because who wants to go and tell people that actually the way we're living our lives is hurting our children so of course there's a lot of shame in that so we're working with shame and to understand that that's what we're working with and often we have policies that I go out I ring up three times I just didn't try again so I take that back on if there's not engagement that's something you need to reflect on yourself as a practitioner you need to do some self-reflection about what is it about the way that I'm coming across or my skill that the engagement isn't happening because it's not with the family it's probably with the way you're presenting or coming across so that takes a good reflection on what's going on with me that maybe I'm actually closing the door for this family to come out and engage what about for others working with families who are having difficulties connecting with each other and perhaps being responded to by services that they find difficult to trust because of good reasons in the past, their other ideas or thoughts there I guess and this probably sounds quite simple but I guess one of the things that it's useful to do in those situations is to actually put that on the table not to pretend it's not there but to I'm back to guessing again obviously do a lot of guessing but you know if you're not clear yet what the barrier is trying to have a conversation about that but you may have information that allows you to make at least a sensible guess that the service you represent represents something that has been traumatising in the past or that is uncomfortable or difficult you know that sense of at least acknowledging that what you represent may not be in that person's eyes helpful and how can we work with that barrier how can we take that barrier and think together about bridging that gap or having a different experience and I think if we're able to be transparent we can invite transparency around if I'm being really annoying or inappropriate maybe we could try and find a way for you to let me know which is not easy the power and balance but if we are transparent that does invite transparency in return that's really interesting I think you said there I guess in a way you're checking in and using any of those non-verbal cues just to check in that's my understanding of what you're saying with the parent just to say hey I'm noticing this at the moment is this kind of how do we move forward with that or is that a thing for starters think about some of the qualities you have to remind yourself on the idea of self-awareness particularly when you've had back-to-back sessions and as we talked about the obligations as a service as a system that we have to kind of meet but I often use some of Dan Hughes's stuff which is around pace helps remind me of a framework to come into to connect and the pace is often working with kids around the P which is playfulness but the pace element acceptance, curiosity and empathy for me helps to reframe how I'm connecting and empathy being the key there and authentically connecting in an empathetic way but we have to be quite grounded in ourselves to be able to connect in that I think we've got to remember the history of this country a little bit too we have had for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families of course there's mistrust and you're coming to represent all of us come to represent a system that has been placed on top and taken away the way we parent naturally because the world views don't fit I was talking before about a lot of our Aboriginal parenting practices natural consequence so we do have a fervour when we look at the circle the circle is a lot larger we've had a little bit more but that's how we have parented for 60,000 years so there's a system that's been placed on top of that that does distrust so kind of navigating that is often people say I didn't ring it's like well half the time they haven't got credit on their phone because we live in this place of privilege and our world views are from and that gets people upset when you say privilege sometimes they haven't got credit on their phone to be able to ring you back so going out there and just having a knock on the door is sometimes they might not answer the first time then I'll go back again and then they might just open the door a little bit and then I'll go back again and I'll have a conversation with them on the step so it's how engaged are you going to be as a practitioner because often we think we need to help the most but are so scared in shame and fear and they need that little bit extra support so we call it that high support high challenge and often what we have is when we have high challenge it seems that support goes whereas that's when high support is needed yeah I think you're talking a bit about the flexibility too of actually therapy doesn't have to happen in a therapy room therapy can happen in all sorts of different ways and different settings and maybe it's not comfortable to come to an organisational office but maybe it's okay to meet somewhere neutral or go to a home it's again about what will work for the family not what works for us and what's convenient for us or fits our world view or our training we've only got a bit mindful of the time and we haven't got so long to go but I guess what what we've been talking about recently I'd like to kind of link that into the final practice challenge around how can practitioners help both parents both focus on the social emotional wellbeing of children but not feel stigmatised by their experiences of adversity seeing amongst everything that's going on I guess parents can become very preoccupied with all they're up against they and I guess the wellbeing of children can be unintentionally pushed to the side a bit sometimes like so I'm wondering how practitioners can respond to that in a way that helps parents keep the focus on children John said something really great in the last one linking parental recovery with child wellbeing so the parents recovery is about the child's wellbeing so if the parents are getting the help and are on their way to their recovery of course that's linked to their children so if we can get the parents in a good space and get the parents wellbeing going well then that's going to have a trickle on effect to the child's wellbeing and often we go we try to separate them but there is a diet there so it's parents so it's a family dynamic we're just working with a child around their wellbeing actually that child's wellbeing is very connected to the parent or to whoever that is parenting that child so actually both of them together and the Healing Foundation actually said that for healing to happen in this country that it has to be done generational so if we're looking at creating great wellbeing for families and strong spirit because we often have often our families have broken spirit because of what's happened or damaged spirit so we want to create strong spirit and that has to be done across generations so parent, child, grandparents it's going to try to solo all of everything that we do and I think it's almost been perhaps present in this conversation but not stated explicitly till now is that I think most of us work with parents and children together and one very powerful way to keep the child alive in the parent's mind is actually not just to see one or the other but to have both present and to have conversations about the challenges the family are facing not in ways that are going to burden children but in ways that take the burden off children but create understanding and we collude with taking the parent's eyes off their child if we don't bring the child into the work and so I think that's something you've just really stated but I think it's something that we all do and to be advocates we've got families that are trying to navigate a very big system all of a sudden they're in this system and they're trying to navigate so they do need someone in their corner and they do need someone that's going to help them navigate that system or actually going to say hey stop everyone just breathe this family has this and have that faith in the family often we talk about being family focused but are we family led do we have faith in the family and we've got to show that faith in the family by saying actually I believe they've got this so I'm actually going to stay here and say to other services I have faith in this family and they're on their way to recovery and they've got this there's been a couple of questions and I haven't quite allowed enough time but maybe you could say something about there's been a couple of questions around the importance of supervision and I know we spoke before about the role of agencies in supporting good practice but yeah I guess I wonder about there's a few questions maybe a theme amongst them is what is it that makes good supervision for families for practitioners that are working with families what is it that makes good but enables practitioners to ensure that the child is not invisible in their conversations do you have any brief reflections around that we were talking this morning we were talking that in the place I work with we have circles so we have huddles huddles of practitioners huddles of the team that I'm working in where we can go through and go so we have it on a Friday so we try to make sure our Fridays are huddle day so we are looking after our own well-being and we actually go through so what happened this week which family are you most worried about so you're not taking it home on the weekend so which family are you most worried about what's stressing you the most and as a collective you know because a lot of brains are better than just one someone holding everything in one person actually sharing it with the team and going actually yep maybe next week we try this or next week you can do this so we share it and have a group supervision which is a virtual in the circle where we all sit in the circle together as a team makes you feel like there's your support so we often talk about parents having hands so you know as a practitioner it's good to know that there's a set of hands that hold you as well and you're not alone in this space just that idea we'll talk about the intentions of what we want to bring the practice principles the qualities you want to bring when supporting children but in supervision we really need to build in that self-awareness you know and kind of the tools that we can use to be aware in the moment to then be more responsive and connecting with our clients I think that in a way is a big piece for supervision building the theoretical frameworks into what we're learning about the self-reflection on what you're implementing around that but then actually what we use to help us tap into those things because stress it shuts off that the thinking brain and I think that's a big piece of supervision I reckon that could be the topic of a further webinar around supervision around child-focused practice so thank you, thanks Ben thanks Jackie and Sarah I really appreciate your reflections and bringing your knowledge and experience and also what stood out to you for speaking earlier today and so thank you very much folks for joining us for this webcast we hope there's been some things that have sparked off for you some further reflections around your own practice and in your own context as well I'd just like to encourage you if there were aspects of today's conversation either this one or the one earlier that have struck a bit of a chord there's certainly a number of resources that are available on the Emerging Minds website www.emergingminds.com.au which you may well find of interest the recording of this session will be available in a few days as well if you do go back and have another look or tell your friends or whatever and also just a reminder to please complete the feedback survey as I mentioned earlier that helps us get better at what we do as well so that would be appreciated and also Emerging Minds together with MHPN are offering a further webinar next Thursday evening around working with parents who have experienced adverse childhood experiences so we'd love for you to join us for that so thank you very much once again