 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Mr. John de Christopher who was the former VP at Zildjian John welcome to the podcast Thank you Bart. It's nice to be here. Yeah, you've been on my list for a long time and I've I've actually had a few recommendations To get you on for a while. So right off the bat. I want to thank Dan Garza who did the great Piste episode on the show So thank you to Dan and Richard Hirsch as well who who sends me some awesome emails and we talk so And I'm sure other people have recommended you but all right. So this is a cool one because It's kind of a different topic than usual. It's it's I just when I thought about you I thought this is an industry guy who has been I mean you were with Zildjian for a long time and you you left in 2013 but That industry experience has given you a lot of knowledge on how things work how these different roles in the drum industry kind of fit together and That's why I wanted to talk to you about maybe you can let us Outsiders have a little more information on on how things work and what the roles are and People working at factories and companies and importing and exporting just all this kind of stuff Which I'm sure you've had your fingers in and I don't expect you to be an expert on, you know, every single detail but um, yeah, so why don't we jump in here and Let's talk about maybe your roles that you've had I'm sure maybe there's been more than just you're usually not day one starting as vice president of a giant company So maybe some of the things and the roles that you've had over the years with Zildjian or any other companies And then we'll go from there and fill in some other roles Sure, absolutely. Well, I I did get my start in the industry side of it in 1985 working for Simmons electronic and I was 24 at the time I was I'd been working in drum retail and that sort of gave me a You know a sort of you know got my foot in the door So to speak with with knowing the person that was running Simmons in California And my background at that time was in sales, you know coming from retail I was hired at Simmons initially I worked in artist relations. I did some customer service and some other things and then eventually Glenn Thomas who was running Simmons in California moved me over to sales because he said, you know, this is this is where you're You know where I need you and where you're gonna do the best job and You know and I can compensate you better, you know in this position So yeah, I did that for about a year and three or four months from the summer of 1985 until the fall of 86 And I'll just sort of give you the brief sort of sure background here I was approached by Don Lombardi president of drum workshop In this in the fall of 1986 to work for him Leading up to the introduction the official introduction of DW drums, which was January 1987. So Don Called me I'd met him a few times out in LA at various events and and we were you know friendly and he Got my phone number from someone and called and said I'm looking for someone who can Wear a couple of different hats You know sales artist relations. We really want to make a push In January to really sort of be an official drum company American drum company And after a couple of meetings with Don, I accepted the position and I started working there and and so that I did that out in California until early 1989 when I was approached by Zildjian To work for them. I'd actually moved back to Boston late in 1988, but I was still working for DW and and that sort of You know invitation or that You know Zildjian approaching me at the NAMM show in 1989 led to me working there a couple of months later Where I worked for 24 years as you say And so when I was hired at Zildjian They wanted to hire me Strictly as an artist relations manager and promotions manager. That was there at Lenny Demusio Who had been there for many many years at that point was moving to education and They wanted someone who was a by that time, you know, I'd been in the industry almost four years I was a known commodity to a lot of these artists and They wanted someone who could sort of walk in on day one and and know the job pretty well Yeah, little did they know that you know I had them fooled because So that's all part of it though is just kind of being in the right place and and I'm sure you were very Knowledgeable, but faking it till you make it kind of thing in a way It was it was you know the thing that what I remember most about that was you know as as much as I felt like I knew some things I certainly learned a lot right from the beginning, you know when I went to work at Zildjian and and and it was a situation where they just You know, I sort of hit the ground running. I can't explain any better than that. I just remember my first day there just You know, okay, here's the phone. Here's your desk. Here's your office Go, you know, and and and that was that and within a few months of working at Zildjian talking about different roles I the company Zildjian had bought a drumstick factory and late 1988 or 89 in Alabama and we were getting very serious about being a drumstick company at that point and Armand Zildjian himself Said to me. I want you to be the guy running our drumstick business Not not the actual factory not the manufacturing part of it But the the marketing the product management, etc. Sure in addition to artist relations so that became a big part of my job for a long time, which was the the management of of You know production and making sure we had enough bread-and-butter models like 5a's and 5b's now that we were making them our ourselves at the factory in Alabama but also to design some sticks because we just had a very basic offering of just generic models and And that was the beginning of the signature stick idea that you know sort of concept for Zildjian Which we were kind of the newest player in that game Vic Firth was already well established with many Signature drumsticks pro mark Regal tip was still a big player in those days Invader of course was was there they were they weren't doing signature sticks yet But they were starting to grow as a as their own brand. They had been making our sticks and other people sticks before that so So the first artist that I signed was Tony Williams. Oh, wow. Yeah, and that was in 1990 He was the first Zildjian signature stick artist and then you know many others came out after that and and I will say largely due to Tony's influence like Dennis Chambers and Vinny Caliuta and and a handful of guys You could you could almost draw a line directly from the fact that Tony was first guy. Yeah, you once you get the first one it's like with Podcasts and and you know stuff on YouTube once you get a big guest you start to get bigger guests and it's like anything That's awesome. You must Zildjian must have been happy to land that You know, yeah, they were they were it was you know, it was an exciting time because the the the drumstick brand could only go up at That point. I mean it was you know, we kind of went from From zero to I won't say zero to 60 but went zero to 35, you know pretty quickly and And things were starting to happen and the quality was getting better and and I also Was responsible for some sticks. I think they some models. They still sell today, which were the super 5b and the 6a and the z4a and later like the super 5a and some other You know Good selling. Yeah popular sticks. Yeah, Zildjian sticks are great. I mean, I've used them for years They're not like just a white label kind of like Zildjian's written on it kind of thing I mean, they are very well made Great sticks that are that are up there with any other brand for sure Absolutely. Yeah, they you know, and I think the fact that when the company when Zildjian bought Vic Firth in 2010 and was able to You know Integrate their manufacturing into into Zildjian drumsticks. I think that was a big game changer for them, too And I don't think it's a secret but prior to Zildjian buying Vic Firth They were actually making our sticks for us for the few years before that and And that and that really improved the quality and then it just really things just really came together. So yeah, for sure I'll just I'll just add one quick thing to Bart today. I'm sorry in around 1996 We hired a guy named John Sorensen the drumstick brand had grown to the point where I had to make a decision as to whether I Wanted to spend all my time on that it needed a full-time person now. I couldn't be doing artist relations and Traveling and doing all the things I was doing with that side of it and still really effectively managed the drumstick business So we hired a really good marketing guy named John Sorensen Who worked there for a long time as the Drumstick product manager and did a fabulous job But I was just gonna say that one of the most rewarding things during my time at Zildjian is just before I left the company I'd been working for two years to get Ringo Starr to play our sticks And it was literally the day that I announced that I was leaving the company that Ringo's contract showed up in the mail and Signed yeah, so it was it was pretty yeah, it was a pretty huge deal and I'll tell you I was sort of holding out I didn't want to leave that piece of unfinished business Yeah, I had given my resignation so to speak and I said I'm gonna wait You know, I'll stay a couple of months help with the transition if you're gonna bring somebody in and but at the Very least I said there are a few things. I I don't want to leave undone and that was one of them So wow that must have felt good just being like I did it You don't want it to be like I feel like that's almost kind of like in politics That happens where you've worked on something for four years and then six months later something, you know The next guy gets the credit Yeah, yeah, or I you know, I mean I not not to by any means You know selling follow myself, but I was kind of afraid that if I was dealing with Ringo's manager That if he found out I wasn't there anymore, he might back out absolutely might say, you know what? I think we're gonna stay where we are. Yes, and there was a good level of comfort with there with with those guys So yeah, happy that happened. So how did you then go from that to vice-president or was there something in between there? Yeah, it was a few years in between and and you know all that time I'd been promoted from artist relations manager to director of artist relations and I did you know, I held that position for many years and during all that time, you know Things were as the company continued to grow I was more involved with getting artists involved with product designs and You know just really nurturing the program trying to find the best artists to represent the company Getting more involved with education we started a program with Berkeley and artist in residence annual sort of bringing an artist in for a week at Berkeley and I was the sort of conduit to making that happen with Berkeley and I Get together go and have lunch with the president and maybe the the chair of percussion at Berkeley and we Settle on a couple of guys to target and might be Peter Erskine. It might be Simon Phillips. It might be Dennis Chambers or somebody like that and and you know, I mean things like that were worth things that I was doing to sort of make My position as artist relations director and ultimately vice-president like growing that position and and and and finding ways kind of more innovative ways to Have the artist be a bigger part of the company, you know utilizing them as best we could which I mean in Zildjian's case Or any other brand like that. I mean the artist like you said make them more of the company. I mean Outwardly facing they are the company. I mean really you think about the people who are playing these symbols It's like that's the face of your brand and if you're not getting new artists and things like that So I mean it's just so apparent and clear that you really care about What you were doing at that time it for each position. I'm sure you cared just as much about Selling versus the sticks versus artist relations. I mean that's That's just most important is actually caring Absolutely. Yeah, I mean and just to give you an example we In 1998 we had the first What we called then the American drummers achievement awards later named the Zildjian drummers achievement awards and we honored Elvin Jones and Max Roach and Louis Belson and Roy Haynes And and that was a fabulous event and it was at Berkeley and we had Peter Erskine Steve Gad Terry Lynn Carrington and Marvin Smitty Smith all pay tribute to all these You know iconic drummers and then five years later. They they coincided with anniversary years for Zildjian So five years later 2003 we honored Steve Gad and Armin Zildjian had passed away six months before or you know prior to that So we we honored Armin Zildjian and I was put in charge of sort of Producing the whole show so to speak and that was a major undertaking and and that was what Ultimately got me promoted to vice president. I figured it's either gonna kill me Get me fired or I'll get a big promotion out of it. So it worked out. You it worked out It almost killed me. Yeah, I'm sure I don't think I came close to being fired But it yeah, it was it was a great event and and in so doing I mean what I'd known Steve for a number of years Before that and we'd become very very good friends But you know something like that we were in such close contact leading up to it and we you know We got this James Taylor band basically to play there and James himself came and paid tribute and cool Simon So it really bonded Steve and I in a way that you know 20 years later now. We're you know as close as ever and and so my point being that you know, that was another way of You know really making the most of these relationships with these artists It was a great way to pay tribute to Steve and then what that led to was Designing some symbols based around Steve the you know the session series which was kind of based on Steve's symbol sound and after that we did these mission from Gad tours which You know, it may be hard to believe for some people, but I Actually had to talk Steve into doing these clinics. I mean he was someone that Was had done them before but was always so busy with touring with Eric Clapton or James Taylor or anybody and And I remember him coming to the NAMM show in January and in 2005 And we had a reception in one of the suites where we brought all our dealers And I said Steve just come with me and meet some of these guys These are all the drum shop owners the five-star drum shop owners that Want to have you and and he got such a great feeling for meeting all these guys that a Week or two later. He agreed to doing the tour because he was still like well, you know, I only have This little window, you know of a couple of weeks off between what I'm doing here and what I'm doing there And I know I'd love to be home and I said Steve come on We'll have a great time and then we got this idea of using a tour bus and so it was you know Yeah, and then you know, he was sort of hooked after that. He couldn't wait to do the next one You know, that's awesome. Oh my god. So that really I mean building these relationships It seems so important obviously as as you know dealing with artists, but they have to like you. I mean that's Seems very important. You have to be personable and not you have to be transparent with them and and and just a Not a not just schmoozing all the time It seems like you really genuinely have built some friendships that have followed through after your time there Which that's just it doesn't get better than that Well, I thank you and and I think you you hit the nail on the head when you said be transparent because when people ask me You know, like what what's sort of advice? Can you give someone who's just getting into the business and And and I think what you just said is so important and being honest. I think being yourself obviously, but I think most importantly you the worst thing you could ever do is You know just sort of be dishonest or or Yeah, not be transparent with someone it will always come back to bite you and even even when the news isn't good And I try to tell people this and I used to try to impart that on the people that work for me Is that, you know, it's it's anybody can do this job if it's just saying yes all day. Yeah, any anybody There's there's no magic to that but to be able to you know, which you have to do sometimes say no and still have that person respect you and and Understand why and not want to run off and go to another company. I mean, that's that's the key to that you have to you have to be able to Manage all those different things and manage people's expectations Yeah, and I mean you what you said is exactly right. I mean I even on my kind of like, you know, I'm not really in the drum industry I guess kind of I am with the podcast, but I've talked to a lot of industry people and there's always some little thing where you have an opportunity to kind of like I don't know the word spreads in the drum Yes world very fast good and bad and just like Every little tiny thing you do does Cause you know a ripple somewhere where you just want to be honest and that I think spreads of oh, he's a great guy or oh I don't know about that guy. Be careful it that or girl that that spreads and Is is really your reputation? You're always kind of working on Growing it making it better. So I think and that's not just the drum community. That's life, you know, if you're You just got to always be honest and upfront, which clearly you you are and it's paid off in your career. So well Thank you. I appreciate that and I and I agree completely that that's that's the key to it and I you know as an example for me, it's kind of interesting now that You know, I knew a lot. I know a lot of drummers that weren't zilgen artists just from you know seeing that Nam shows just sort of knowing them and You know, I have this show of my own life from my drum room and I've had a number of Non-zilgen artists that I really didn't know well but but they knew me and they and they Liberty DeVito, for example, who I've you know, I've sort of we've known peripherally for some years each other, but not well Joe Vitale who's a big hero of mine, you know, again, not a zilgen guy But just a number of these guys that when I reached out and said I'd love to have you do this Yeah, yeah, I'd love to do it, you know, and yeah, I think if they hadn't any sort of a vibe that I wasn't a Straight shooter or whatever the case may be they they certainly didn't have to agree to be on my show And so I you know, I appreciated that You know, they had a good feeling about it for sure And I should have mentioned that earlier live from my drum room your show is just unbelievable and has a number of guests and it's on YouTube and as a Podcast as well the audio format and I'll share the link to that And I'm sure we'll talk about that more kind of towards the end as we as we plug that stuff but All right, so what I'd love to do now is kind of like even jumping off of your career Kind of rewind a little bit and maybe look at some of these positions Not not really just as as you at at, you know, let's say Simmons or at DW but but like in general Let's maybe start with sales like what does a salesman do? And let's I guess say in them in in in more modern times as opposed to like in the 80s I'm sure things really changed when you're selling Electric drums from Simmons in the mid 80s, which it was like the prime The prime of that but we were just writing orders back then. Yeah, exactly So what does a salesperson do at a drum company? Obviously, I know they sell but you know what I mean like a little bit more How does that actually look I used to spend a lot of time on the road with sales reps because I was I'd be out with a clinician and You know doing Clinic tours for two weeks at a time. So I got to know a lot of the reps really well and and you know, I Zilgin had and still has some really great professional sales reps and it's a hard job because it's become more and more Competitive, but you know, I would see the reps to give you an example when they when they pay a sales call to a dealer They're in there doing an inventory that the the and I hope I'm not speaking out of turn and I If I'm giving wrong information, please correct me any sales rep That's happens to hear this but but you know the the dealer sort of expects the zilgin rep the piste rep the Sabian rep whoever minor rep to come in and and Manage their inventory so to speak kind of come in and say, okay I've I've done a physical inventory and I think a lot of these guys have it computerized too, but But they'll come in and they'll they'll look at what's in stock what's been selling You know, I you had X number of these in the last order and they're all gone so I think you need to go heavier with this one and you know and Hopefully buy more of these other ones, but if they're not selling as quick So I think it's a it's a it's a definitely a challenging job, especially nowadays to where There's so many brands out there now when I when I started at zilgin even in 1989 It was basically really just three symbol brands I mean minel was was out there, but they weren't what they are today Sure, and it was zilgin Sabian piste and You had X amount of floor space and I know you know how this works part You've been in enough drum shops to see this it's they have X X amount of shelf space floor space and You know, there's only so many Brands that they can fit and only so many skews per brand that they'll have room for so that was always the sort of battle With with the sales reps was you know, they they want to have the biggest They want zilgin to have the biggest footprint if it's the zilgin sales rep He's coming in saying well you're selling more of my stuff. So I need more space Yeah, but of course the other companies are coming in saying well, you know, but we want space too and So it it's I don't know if that gives you a good idea No, it absolutely does and then I imagine people have territories that they work and they build relationships with those shop owners different drum shops and Which again, so you want salespeople who people like to talk to you don't want some You know guy who's not representing your brand well, obviously Yeah, exactly. You know you're exactly and and and a good sales rep and I've seen this I've experienced it firsthand is Going to advocate for their dealers Yeah, and they're gonna they're gonna sort of push back at the company at times when they have to and if they feel For whatever reason that you know the credit terms aren't right for the dealer They're gonna they're gonna stand up and fight for that dealer. They're gonna say look I know you can't he couldn't pay his bill in 30 days last month Because things were slow or whatever the situation was but come on, you know, let's let's give him 45 days You're let's let's not take away his credit privileges. Let's not don't go putting him on cod because He had one bad month of paying his bill. You know, I mean, it's it's those kinds of things and I'll say in my situation Back when clinics were a thing They're not really a thing anymore, but you know, there was a time when I'd have The reps sort of fighting for if I was gonna go out on the road with maybe it was with Steve Gad or maybe it was with Dennis Chambers or Keith Karloch. They'd say hey, you have to make sure you if there's only gonna be 10 dates for the whole country Make sure I get a date at you know at explorers percussion Mm-hmm cuz you know Wes has done a great job and he's been asking and I've been promising So I'd you know, I'd I go, okay. Well, I know Wes. All right. Yes, let's make sure we get Wes on that list You know and so that you know, again, that's a good sales rep who's sort of looking out for his dealers and yeah Totally and just a side note. Wes is great. He was emailing me yesterday about showing me a little video of kind of his He has a little history section He has a bunch of drum sets lining the walls that have you know through the through the years of you know, like early 1900s, here's this here's that up through the 70s with like a Vista light Ludwig kit so Wes is great. He's a great guy. Yeah, okay, so that's cool for sales now There's just so many different little positions before we go. I mean, we're obviously you kind of went the I Guess the business side of things, but maybe we while we're in this I Don't know this tier of kind of feet on the ground. Why don't we hop over and talk about actually people who are working and Manufacturing things. I mean a little bit. Obviously, we know that there's That's a there's a whole zilgen episode that talks about, you know, the process of making them and all this stuff But there's a lot of people who are actually making drumsticks and factory workers And it's fair to say a lot of them aren't drummers, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, so how does that work? Do people like is it let's just say in zilgen's case or any anyone's case Is it kind of just answering an ad like you would for any factory job and going and getting the job? I mean, is there any info on about, you know, kind of that lane That's that's a good question. I mean, I think to some degree certainly when I was there you know when there were openings for positions in the factory they would advertise and You know a person would be trained Did they didn't necessarily have to be a drummer and and I know you did something with Paul Francis who is a drummer, of course and He came in there as a as a young, you know wide-eyed Excited enthusiastic young guy. I think he was I want to say he was 18 or 19. Yeah, so like that in there Yeah, I started just a couple of months after he did and he was this just exuberant Kid, you know, we used to call him young Paul Francis just because he was so you know, just he wanted to soak it all up Yeah, but but I but there are people that work and certainly at the time I was here There are people that worked, you know in the melting room or some of the different machines that were trained to Work those machines, but weren't necessarily drummers, but they understood that the end result was to make a great sounding product. So instrument and Whether it's lathing a symbol so that it weighs this much and you put it on the scale, you know And understanding the importance of that and it can't be too heavy or it can't be too light and Yeah, you know, but I think I think My feeling and maybe this is what you're getting at I think to some degree though Being a drummer when you when you're making something that's drum related is certainly I think a Benefit, you know, I think people making drumsticks That are drummers that can actually, you know, feel how only a drummer can understand How a drumstick feels in their hand. Yeah, a sort of regular person is gonna go well It feels like a stick to me, you know, yeah, no that makes perfect sense Yeah, and I think of Ludwig who has I know there's there's a some older ladies who work there that they talk about in Post-pictures of and and it's just yeah, but you think of any factory job And there's a lot of people who work in you know factory situations who make things that literally have nothing to do with their everyday life They just are punching metal slap whatever they're doing. They're sure. Yeah, okay. That makes sense now I guess so maybe we hop over and I I'm really interested too in the artist relations side of things Which you've talked about a lot, but I think just maybe we dig a little deeper in that and I mean How does that really look are you on the phone every day with your artists? Are they calling you from the road if there's a problem? I mean, what would a typical day in the life of an artist relations, you know, like not maybe not the manager of everything but just kind of the You know the artist relations team. How does that look? Well for a long time It was You were on the phone almost every minute of every day I mean and I say it for a long time until we started Emailing and text messaging and things like that, but I'm you know, I go back to the analog days When I started there in 89 I didn't have I had there was a really nice woman that was sort of the Assistant administrative assistant for the entire marketing department. So she worked directly for my boss but also sort of assisted me would screen my calls and take messages for me and things like that but But she wasn't really an artist relations in that capacity in that in that function like she would take an orc She would take a message and say Anton fig called and needs this symbol Asked if you could pick one out form and send it to him. So then that would just be the message I would then of course take it from there. Yeah, but But to give you an example for a number of years, it would be people drum techs drummers themselves potential Artists, you know people wanting to be signed with the company would call and And I'll be honest. I mean in many cases those would have to be the lower priority type calls to take if I'm on the phone with Kenny Aronoff, yeah, or Peter Erskine and somebody beeps in and says You know Bart's on the phone and he wants to talk to you about he wants he's gonna send you his package But once to I say well, can you take a message and I'll get back to him or please have him send his package and sure You know, I learned pretty quickly Bart that that I could spend an entire day just Fielding those calls and yeah took everyone of those calls You could be on the phone for half hours the guy or gal sort of pitches their their gig and and you know I'd say send me send me something to look at so I can listen to it and Read it and see what you're doing, you know, I mean that that's a whole Everyone has been on the other end of that where you're like you're sending something especially even young people who have no chance to be like signed but but you can't blame people for being for the the The drive to want to be connected to the brands they love but in reality again If you're on the phone with Peter Erskine, you're talking to the biggest drummers in the world a Young drummer in let's say Cincinnati where I am. It's like it's not even I mean did that get I know I'm sure you're such a nice guy. You're not gonna say it got annoying, but it had to get a little I Don't know just kind of like old Fielding these. Yeah. Yeah, and I can say it now. It was annoying at a point I mean, you know, how could it not be? Yeah You know again, there's only so much time in the day and I will say that when I started working there I've told this story before but I started in the springtime in May and Not long after I'd been there a month or two the the sort of concert season started and in those days There was a it's still there. There's a shed called Think it's called Xfinity Center But anyway, it was it was about 30 miles away and bands were playing there every night of the week and in most cases They were Artists that I had to go see so I'd be Leaving the office at 4 30 or 5 with some swag, you know some t-shirts and a couple of replacement symbols and Head into the shed and I'd be there and I'd stay for the show and see the guy afterward and then get home at you know Midnight and then rinse repeat, you know go back to work the next day and and you know It was it was really tough and I know you have kids I my at that time my son was two years old and my Daughter was soon to be born So it was a really hard time Family-wise for me to sort of be present and with this new job that I was excited about having but It was taking an incredible amount of my time in my life So I I as best as I could tried to balance that but it it wasn't always easy because Stuff needed to be done and you know, we didn't have cell phones in those days And sometimes I get I I wouldn't give my phone number out to everyone but I'd get a call at home on a weekend from someone who for whatever reason felt like By calling me on a Sunday that was going to help get them a symbol You know, I'd say well look I'm gonna be in the office tomorrow We can we can talk about I'll get it out as fast as I can you know, but oh man There's nothing I can do on a Sunday, but yeah The going to the shows like you said and seeing people. I mean and then being in the office I mean that's if if you're going that late at night and then going right back into the morning I mean that can be kind of brutal. I mean that's yeah, but that clearly you kind of Throw yourself into your job like that, but you're right where if you have young kids you kind of got to choose What what is too much? Yeah, yeah, and it's funny too when I think back to that too because So many of my friends, you know thought that I just had the you know, it was a great job I'm not saying it wasn't a great job But they thought like you mean you actually get paid to go to concerts and it's like listen It's not it's not what you think Yes, I if you want to if you want to consider getting paid, but but look at it this way It's unpaid overtime. I mean, I'm I'm at these concerts after the you know when the clock stops So to speak yeah, I mean if you really want to get technical But but I think at that time early on a lot of my friends are like wow what a what a great gig You mean you got to go see Fleetwood Mac last night. Wow cool It's like yeah, it was it was a great show, but you know what if I were home on the couch watching TV I'd have been good with that too. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure like yeah, I'm tired Wow, yeah, that's uh, that's a side where it's less glamorous I mean it is very glamorous, but it's less glamorous than you think where it's like Yeah, you're a human and you want to take a break and go home, but yeah, yeah You know, you you mentioned early on sort of how Artist relations and all these other jobs interact with each other Yeah, and and I think a great example would be you know, I was involved for example We do these photo shoots as part of our advertising campaign. So as The artist relations person I would be the again the the sort of liaison to getting Peter Erskine or Tony Williams or somebody for the photo shoot and in many cases if it was local or sometimes I'd go out to LA or San Francisco and and You know be part of the photo shoot. I won't say supervise it, but certainly You know kind of give the photographer an idea of what we were looking for and yeah So, you know, it's it was at that time anyway It was a job that touched a lot of different things that touched sales from the standpoint of You know bringing a clinician out on the road And we we try to tie in some sort of Sale at explorers percussion with You know xyz drummer being there. Yeah As I said photo shoots or just just marketing in general just to you know an ad campaign that involved a bunch of different artists This episode is brought to you by dream symbols I want to talk a little bit about the dream symbols recycling program The recycling program is simple bring your broken or unwanted symbols all brands accepted into your local dream dealer And you can earn one dollar for every inch of symbol you bring in towards the purchase of a new dream symbol For example, bring in two 20 inch symbols for recycling and receive $40 off the price of a new dream symbol It's that easy They in turn take the symbols recycled and use them to create new products Like the re effects crop circles and the naughty saucers Check them out online at dream symbols.com and follow them on social media at dream symbols well, you just kind of Help me figure out another position to maybe talk about with marketing and the photo shoots is really interesting too I Out of school when I was kind of getting into the world of like media stuff I worked as a photo assistant for a while and uh on a lot of product shots like Three-day shoot for Tempur pedic where I was building beds and things like that and it's like That's also not that glamorous obviously It's fun to be the photographer who comes in like the rock star and shoots them But there's a lot of like long hours and products Does do these companies typically shoot things in-house like if if you say you need all right We need a picture of this eight inch a custom splash. Let's go shoot it or whatever this this snare drum for other brands Do do they have people on staff typically like a photographer or I think I think nowadays Probably a lot of companies do that and and I you know, I want to say this kind of delicately I think there's not as much emphasis on shooting products as there was 20 or 30 years ago like very to answer your question when when When I started at zilgen We would go to a studio and we would bring the products that we were shooting to the studio to use the best lighting To use that photographer's best, you know, he'd he'd use whatever lenses and Cameras that he felt were going to be best. I mean, it's really hard to shoot symbols too when you think about shiny Exactly when we could never do it internally without the the reflection of the shininess like you said especially brilliant finish symbols They were always tricky, but you know, we had great photographers and especially With artists there were some artists that Liked certain photographers because they just made them feel comfortable and because they used certain types of lighting and Rob Shanahan is a great Front he's an old friend of mine and a great photographer based out in LA who's shot all the stars And he goes on tour with ringo and as ringo's photographer and and that's like the level. He's at but he's shot everybody and But guys like rob are expensive because He's top of the food chain, you know, he's high quality stuff. So A lot of companies I think now I mean when I was at zilgen toward the end. We were doing a lot of that stuff in house and Honestly, I it showed I you know, I never having come from Knowing what it used to look like. I was pretty critical at times of how Things looked and I wouldn't hesitate to say This looks like You know poop but People often don't care as much because they're looking at on their on their phone And if it's just a little thumbnail picture of a ride symbol or whatever They don't care as much as opposed to a full setup You know with drums and it's this beautiful thing it it it's I feel like even maybe post covid Audio quality can be worse and people don't notice as much anymore because they're used to the zoom sound. They're used to like Things being a little less I mean photographers like you said are expensive I mean, I remember working on shoots where the guy was using a like a hassle-blad camera that was just The price of a car the price of a nice car and it's it's just It's it's crazy, but yeah, it makes sense to do it in house and it does especially now with You know the fact that as you pointed out too, I mean so much of this stuff Doesn't even see it the light of day on magazines anymore Where you're you're going to get the benefit of a really high quality photo with the glossiness of an ad You're it's going to go into social media. It's going to go in a facebook post or an instagram post And you can shoot it with the high quality iphone. Yeah iphone's my wife's iphone 12 or whatever it is is like a Crazy great camera. It's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, exactly and So that leads to and and you and I can both attest to this that uh, I feel like before I got into doing this podcast if someone said Oh, I do social media marketing or I do social media for x brand or company You know locally or wherever you'd kind of look at it and go like oh, whatever, okay But now spending a bunch of time doing social media. It is very difficult. It is hard to do can be consistent there's a lot of pressure to Get likes and things All of these brands I imagine have in-house social media people who post and do all this stuff What does that look like? Is it typically one person? Is it a team? I mean zillian has a ton of followers and and again This is kind of being zillian centric because of your background But in in general is it is it one person or more? I think I mean when I when I Just before I left zillian and you know 2012 2013 A woman she's not doing the job. She still works there and marisa and felipo Was doing that job and she was kind of a one-man band in terms of social media But it was it was still kind of I mean facebook had been around a few years at that point and instagram had been around but it was still Kind of a new thing. So I I don't know if they have a team of people I my sense is they probably have a person. Yeah That's part of the marketing or digital marketing whatever they might call it now Larger group of other people that do other things But I I don't know that it would make sense to have more than one person Well, I mean, yeah, really I can again you and I can both speak to it of like people I feel like your vibe comes through with the social media that we do and it maybe it makes more sense to have one person So someone doesn't write in their own A description in their voice and it sounds completely different. So I guess it's smart to have one person to be You know, that's a good point. Yeah to be the continuity of it. Yeah, exactly Yeah So, um All right, then there's so many little things though too about like like zilgen for example did a lot of they do a lot of great videos They do all these things. So you do have to be everywhere. So it's not just doing a little facebook post here and there But there's these are whole these are big productions and a lot of the companies do over they have I guess it's that's also blending the the artist relations to where you get these great players to come in Let's shoot some promo videos. Let's do this and then that goes. So that's again the Kind of synergy that's needed to make it all work together Well, I'm glad you mentioned that bark because again, this is this is since I've been gone from the company Well, I'll back up a second A very good friend of mine who now is the vice president at zilgen joe testa. I don't know if you know joe Yeah, I've spoken emailed a few times. Yeah, you have okay. Yeah, he worked for yamaha for a long time and then Worked for vik furth got hired at vik furth as their director of artist relations And I want to say that was 2010 and it was the later that year that zilgen We called it at the time merged with vik furth. They basically bought vik furth And so the two companies were separate for a while. I I left as I say in 2013 They were still somewhat independent and then over the last few years. They've come together as one company. They've integrated as one And joe is now vice president of both zilgen and vik furth And and I'm mentioning joe because he has a background. He was the one that when they were separate companies He started the vik furth vik furth live or whatever it was called It was the and zilgen then sort of I want to say I won't say they piggybacked on it But they did their own version of it. Yeah, but it was kind of I I want to say it was joe's Sort of idea concept of these live Videos that you're talking about and he had a background in that from working for He worked for sandi feldstein's company in the early 90s Cpp bellwin and he did video editing and so he had a background in that so he's My point being that You're right. There's a there's a real synergy and marriage between artist relations now and video content and the importance of having all that You know in social media and yeah, and it's that's a big part I think I mean it was becoming part of my job when I go on these clinic tours to get video of drummers get photos Log into the zilgen facebook page and post a picture of Steve gad or dennis chambers, you know and that kind of thing and that's become even bigger now So I mean, that's what we keep saying it but that's what that's the face of it. That's what people see. That's what the Um You know 12 year old drummer who's watching youtube looks at who then becomes a lifelong user of this brand and falls in love with it And and and just all that good stuff. So All right, so let's uh, I was thinking to myself like oh, there's there's got to be you know There's the role too of like the accounting people and there's all this stuff But that's not as fun to talk about obviously, but really there are people who literally there's numbers people I mean, this is businesses that have to function Uh and that is obviously a part of the company, you know absolutely, no, and you that's another really excellent point because um, you can't operate a company Effectively efficiently for any period of time unless you are aware of the numbers unless you're you know, you're cognizant of of maintaining a profit and and you know running a business properly and and so I was I think I I think I hopefully they the accountants at zilgin will look back fondly at me, but I was certainly um You know I I had to I had to advocate for artists I had to advocate for my department and what I wanted to do and we were definitely at odds at times Yeah, um, I with uh, maybe the cfo coming and saying You know, we need to we need to find some money and we you know in the budgets and I'm asking all the department heads to to Cut x amount of dollars or can you Reduce your budget by this much and sometimes I could do that and other times I'd say look I I'm gonna need this to to do all these things that I'm planning to do and we and we need to do these things It's not You know, they're gonna make sense. They're gonna be important to the company Yeah, so so, yeah, there's there's a responsibility and and I think More to your point. I think as as Any good artist relations person understands you are you do work for a company you advocate for the drummers, but you you do have to be um You know responsible for your job and and and not Uh spend more than you've been budgeted and yeah overextend yourself Yeah, absolutely. You can you can push it a little bit and take a risk and it pays off and it did great And that's awesome or it didn't work out. Okay. Maybe don't do that again, but you can't be driving. I'm not saying all right You are just out of control It's not good for the company Um, it's not it's not so all right, then we're kind of getting up the food chain here Let's talk about the role of a vice president I mean really what what is the day in the life of a vice president? Obviously in your case at zilgen, but I'm sure it's pretty similar across the board Uh with a lot of differences obviously too, but what does a vice president really? do well in my case, um, I I had a three managers working for me and then and and then people below them as well and What I tried to do though bar is I I tried to still and I think I did I think I managed to do this Stay connected to the drummers. I mean, I I wasn't doing all the day to day stuff that I used to do obviously Yeah, um, but I still wanted to be accessible to I I keep saying these names guys like peter urskine or denis or any of these people that would want to call me and speak with me charlie watch or someone like that that that Um, with all due respect to the people that work for me. They they didn't know these people Yeah, I was still their person and I didn't want them to ever feel That I'm a vice president now. So, you know, really I I I sit around with the board of directors and discuss you know the future of the company but um That job what what came with that job was more fiscal responsibility just what we were talking about in terms of Really having my eye on the budget all the time and making sure that we weren't um, you know, we had we had two satellite offices that Worked for me London and Los Angeles And people that worked in those offices and product that was going out the door to those offices and servicing drummers Um, so there was always those types of things to maintain um Yeah, lots of meetings because you know being involved with the marketing people and talking about advertising campaigns and um being part of the sound team or the r&d team and and being a voice for Artists on new product designs or or maybe maybe raising an issue that someone had brought to my attention with Something that they weren't happy with Or sometimes even me being out in the field in a music store and seeing some things that I felt needed attention So, you know those types of things. It's more of like at the 10,000 foot level than then the ground level sometimes No, that makes perfect sense. It's more of like The people who would be at the upper level of their department need to go to you to get the approval to move forward in certain things So but someone like you to be in that position It sounds like you have to have had such experience to know the right way To do things and to what to approve and maybe you could say like I Wouldn't do that. I've tried some things like that and uh, that's not the way to go and You actually mentioned another thing so kind of going Back a little bit. I because I mean vp is pretty obviously a high position and and none of these are lesser But let's let's talk about r and d a little bit because that is such a cool Thing, I mean you're you're coming up with these awesome ideas and trying things What does that department look like? Well, it's I I think it's A lot different than when I was still there. I know You know at that time I think it was you know, like paul was sort of paul francis was Was kind of really the the the main person there that was doing the r and d and and we worked closely with drummers I might come to him and say I was talking to so-and-so And he had this idea Or paul might come to me and say So-and-so, you know that I a drummer contacted him directly with an idea. What you know, what do you think? so You know, I guess the the slippery slope that comes with that though bart is that There are a lot of ideas out there Whether they be from drummers or within the company even yeah, and sometimes all those ideas don't turn out to be great ideas And the key is you know, you want to try to land on a great idea. You don't You know people can sometimes be a little unforgiving with the ideas that aren't such great ideas Yeah, luckily most people remember the good ideas more than the bad ones, but my point being that it's you know, there was there was like a uh, almost like a a filtration system of just Being able to sort of weed out certain things if someone came to me With this, you know, they say I've had this idea for a symbol that Um can do all these different things and it looks like this and I'd say well, you know, we make something That's about 98 percent Of what you're saying. Yeah, I know but I've tried that but it's just that other and You have to make a call maybe and it wouldn't be my decision, but I the the call might be whether we pursue Going that extra two percent and we just go you know what it we're so close with what we have sure We could make one for you But to market this as a product It's probably not going to sell because there's this other one that's Already there. Yeah, and and in my mind what I would always default to would West it explores is west going to carry This one that he's been selling for five years Plus this new one that's almost just like it Probably not too many skews. You know, yeah, exactly. He's going to say well, man, you know, I This one's doing really well for me. I I get what this one is, but I don't know that it's going to make a difference You know, and yeah, that's kind of where No one the business comes in it becomes a very important part of what you do. Yeah, absolutely and We all know this with the world of the internet people are really critical And we'll just immediately say like this is just oh this I hate this idea. This is terrible. So you kind of need to Yeah, run it through that filter of what's the armchair, you know expert going to say of like You know immediately criticizing and I think most brands really are good about kind of Not caring that much because the comment sections usually you just stay out of But but you got it, you know, you don't want to I don't know. It's it's a different world now where it's people can be very very critical Yeah, and I think I think the process at zilden has changed dramatically since I've left in terms of how they How they take an idea to an actual finished product. I think there's a more of a More of a lengthy process that it has to go through to reach that point I don't think it's it used to be a few of us would On the r&d team would be sitting in a room and say, yeah, let's give it a try Let's let's try making a new sheet bronze symbol that can do this, you know, and You know, I don't think that happens anymore I I don't know I can't speak for other companies and I probably shouldn't try to speak for zilden because it's Yeah, I think it's changed a lot. Yeah All right, so as we're getting kind of close to the end here We we should just kind of touch on being the president of one of these companies What does that really look like is that being kind of the face of the company and the outward, you know Like this is I'm at the top. What how does that work? That's a really good question. Um, when I started armin zilden was still the president of the company and and that was great. I was fortunate to work there, um For 14, you know armin was still alive for 14 of the 24 years that I worked there. So that was uh, I think back to that as yeah, just I was so fortunate to have that but um, you know, he was um When he was president, he was a presence But he wasn't in the office every day and I think he would be someone that that would Make a decision when when there needed to be like a sort of final decision made whether it's opening a new stick factory or um, whatever the case may be During my time when when his daughter craigie Was president and I don't I think she's now sort of semi I won't say semi retired, but there's another person. I think running the company sure, but um But craigie was was very hands-on. She was very involved and I you know, I I I really appreciated the relationship that her and I had for a long time and that I could go directly to her. I mean, there was someone between me and her in terms of for the most part Uh, the chain of command, but but she always made it clear that I could come directly to her And she would come directly to me and she would listen to my voice. She'd ask my opinion on things um, and I think a good president again stands at that or sits or whatever they do at the 10 000 foot level and They sort of move the pieces around like I would do with my team They just do it at a on a larger scale and and let the people You know, you you hopefully have good people working for you in all these departments Let them kind of do their thing and if you need to come in and Move something in a different direction you do it But you don't micromanage. Yeah and It's not to say she didn't always it's not to say she never micromanaged Every president does. Yeah, exactly. And I would yeah, I would say it's her company so she she's can do whatever she wants but Um, but no, I think to tense your question and you know without trying to be funny about it. It's I think that's um You know, you you have to have a as a president You have to have a vision of what you want the company to be where you want it to be in five years how you want to get there and then You know kind of pass that on to the people that are going to execute that that plan for you that strategy. Yeah That's a perfect way to look at it. I think most people have worked for a company where the president of the company I know I was doing out of college after the photo stuff I was doing video for a company and the the president of this company would call me and talk to me about Shooting this video for him and it was which was fine But he would he would be telling me about you know This gear that I shouldn't be using and I shouldn't do this in this lav mic that I bought was like 400 dollars He's like, did you really need to buy that? I'm like What are you talking about? Why are you calling me? Uh, it's just crazy. It's waste. It's what do they say tripping over dollars to get to quarters or pennies or whatever It's penny wise pound foolish. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah many many sayings people have been there in our position to where there's Now a lot of sayings for it, but uh That's just fascinating So this has been a cool look at the drum industry, but obviously as we kind of wrap up I want to talk about um, what you I mean you left zelgin in 2013. You've been staying very busy Um more recently you've been doing the live from my drum room. Um, just talk about that a little bit You have so many great guests who clearly like you and you have background with people It's just it's very fun to watch Well, thank you part and thanks for the plug. So, you know, I think like a lot of people I started doing it It's coming up on two years now. I started in like march. I think of 2020 march or april um Just being tired of being, you know, locked down Like all of us were at that time and and I was seeing other people doing things like this on facebook like doing these facebook live things so I thought well, you know I've I've kind of done some of these things before with zelgin. I I'd I'd do a little fun video Uh thing with steve gad on tour and we'd have like a couple of laughs. So I had this idea of of You know, just not being too serious about it I guess if if that's the only way I can explain it is I kind of learned as I went along I really didn't know what I was doing and I still don't really know what I'm doing I see what you do and it's so much more professional and and it's it's so much better Oh my god. No, no, I'm gonna learn from you but but I I you know I I kind of I knew that I could reach out to some friends and say look, I've got this Not even an idea, but let's just go on the air. We're not going to have any kind of Format. I'm not going to have any questions. We're just going to wing it. We're just going to talk and the first two or three um I was just sort of getting the bugs out in terms of the the technical side of it and But they went really well and people I think because they had nothing else to do were tuning in like by the hundreds We're watching these things live and I hadn't even really started to put them on youtube yet. I was just amassing these these recorded shows so to speak And then I started to get a little more serious about it and I thought well I'm gonna I'm gonna start a youtube channel and I I'm gonna figure out how I put these on youtube I didn't even know how to do that. Yeah and it's only been Since last summer that I started making them into podcasts And and I and you know this better than anybody Bart, but I've I've it's amazing how much That has just for me. Anyway, that became such a huge thing like if I load I'm doing a show this saturday with anton fig and I'll I'll probably have A couple hundred people watch it on youtube within a day or so, but I'll have That many downloads on on uh on a podcast maybe within a few hours It's and I think that that's a that's a testament to how many people prefer You know the ease of a podcast versus a youtube video Yeah, you can just go in the water. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's so much and I it took me a minute to you know To understand that I should have done that a long time ago, but I'm but anyway, so I I started to get a little bit more serious about it and and Tried to clean up my act and then I got more serious about getting Guests and trying to make them fun to watch and interesting and and my whole concept throughout this whole time has simply been Don't make it feel like Or sound like everything this drummer or person has ever done before try to make it a little different You know and I and I I'm fortunate to know if I don't know them personally I'm at least familiar enough with their work that I can get into some nitty gritty Yeah, that other people I I see some of these other ones and I don't want to be critical, but they're just so Not yours honestly yours are fantastic, but but I mean like some of them are just It's just kind of the same kind of thing and and yes, I agree You know and sometimes you can tell that the person interviewing doesn't even really know much about the person because they're asking Very generic type things, but I want to like with Joe Vitale who I've just been a huge fan of his for so many years I I just got into all this deep stuff about songs like what were you thinking when you played this part? I had Kenny Jones Who I'd never I've never met in person, but I Had him on my charlie watch tribute show and then we did our own in you know standalone show And I asked him about playing it on its only rock and roll by the stones Yeah, the song and he talked about that and So, you know, it's things like that that that I sort of go for and it's almost really my own I mean my own self-indulgence that i'm doing these some of these for you know, yeah, but it's it's a great way I mean people love them and and and you've I think you've done a great job and just even your room It's just cool to be we have the video up right now people listening on the podcast can't see it But it's like it's like i'm i'm inside of live from my drum room because you're you're there and you're you're set up and very very put together and It's a lot of work. I mean all this stuff is a lot of work as you know but it it pays off and I mean I again like I said before I think people kind of take for granted that these things just All this content just appears but it doesn't it takes time to book people. It's it's I'm really glad you're doing it I think there's there's certain All all drum content and podcasts and things are great But it's your you have the industry experience that I think no one else can really have have your personal Knowledge and experiences. Um, so it's it's important and and like I said before I'll share it In the description and and honestly just type in live from my drum room and it'll pop up everywhere Um, so thank you bar. Yeah, and I just want to say I I tip my hat to you because I think you're doing an incredible job and you're doing you know when you look at your All the podcasts you've done over the last few years and I you know I commend you because you're you're getting to talk to you're talking to people that are so important to the industry that might not be High-profile but but they've contributed so many guys like rob cook and and um, you know, they're just huge um A part of this industry and I and I think that for me I'm I'm thinking the same way with some of the artists that I'm talking to and that You know, I I want something to be in the archives long after I'm gone about Um, you know remembering charlie watch talking about ringo um drummers that don't get a lot of attention that When people know their story go wow he played on that record or he you know gary malibu for example who Again, a childhood hero of mine played on all the big steve miller records a lot of people don't know who gary is but he's like this unbelievably prolific recording drummer That I just you know, I from my own self-indulgence again. I wanted something You know saved forever that that Yeah, totally celebrate gary. These will live forever and thank you so much for your kind words. I appreciate it I mean it's I I wasn't really I was playing in bands and stuff But now I've kind of slipped in the back door into the drum world By just starting this so It's been an absolute joy to do and I get getting to talk to guys like you and meet people. Um, it's just What what what better way is I'm sure you missed a little bit of having these connections with these artists And now you get to do it again Yeah, yeah, I I did and I you know, there were quite a few I had been in touch with anyway sort of even when I was not working in the business anymore, but Um, but yeah, it's it's just it's nice to reach out to old friends and just go. Hey, you know, we're We're still even if we're in touch on facebook. It's just nice to to go. Hey, why don't you come on and and uh Yeah, you know, we'll chat about some things so for sure and that's a great transition. So Speaking of old friends. Um, john has been kind enough. He's gonna after we finish this episode He's gonna hang out and we're gonna do a quick bonus episode and we absolutely have to talk about the legendary late great charlie watz who you had You really really knew him and had a lot of great experiences with him I see you're wearing the sympathy for the drummer shirt from our buddy mike edison Absolutely, and my man just and and the stones and everything and and like people on the show know I had that amazing experience getting to meet him and go on stage and you had that many times so Um, I want to just kind of pick your brain a little bit about that and talk about some of your experiences with charlie on that bonus episode Which people can check out on patreon go to drumhistorypodcast.com and there's a little button there. Um, but What a loss. I mean, I feel like just without giving too much away on the main one because we'll save it for the bonus But I I think about I mean I walk by a picture I have in my house of me and charlie my and my wife and I think about them every day I'm sure you do too. I do too. I have I have a lot of um, if you can see that photo behind me I have you know many constant reminders of charlie in my house and and uh, you know and in my In my heart and soul, you know, yeah, so john Thank you so much for taking the time to do this and share your immense knowledge and um, thank you for being here This is just awesome. Thank you so much for having me bard. I had a great time and thank you again If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning