 They know that they're going to fast life imprisonment, or they get to be told they're going to fast life imprisonment when they fast the charges. Do you think men really don't know? I honestly don't know. Now you find yourself in court? Yeah, I think they don't think about it before doing it. And now they find themselves in court and the judge is reading the sentence and they're like life imprisonment. So because this is the court of appeal, this is where appeals happen. So already the case has been heard, the sentences have been given. So this is where someone works up and like I cannot fast life imprisonment because of doing ABCD. So that triggered something. Maybe they just don't know the magnitude of what they're doing and what they're going to fast before the court of law and the punishment. But in this case you know they're questioning your moral standing of course. Yes, yes, yes. So based on that and also based on the fact that these are not girls who you can say they consented 18 years and above. These are also children who really are helpless. So I thought it's best to either teach the society on the laws that affect children and also just like on sexual offences matters. There's no consent. You cannot tell me a 10 year old consented to a grown up to have sexual activities. That is not a defense. So I wanted to come up and bring up all this and ensure that the society know that this is the evidence you need. This is what you're supposed to keep as evidence. This is what you're supposed to submit in court and it's admissible in court. But now Sheila even as you saw this and you're like you know what I want to do something about it. Yes. But for many cases you know this charity law up to what age does it cover? Is it because I've seen you mentioned 10 years. Is it 18 and below also because we've seen in this country even teenagers getting married off. Does this law cover them? Yes. So the Constitution and the Children's Act in Kenya define a child as any person who is below the age of 18 years. So all this laws rights under the Children's Act and article 53 of the Constitution covers anyone who is below 18 years old. So when you talk about child marriage if a child is married that is already an invalid marriage. It's invalid from the start. We call it Ibn Nizro from the start. From the beginning. From the beginning. It's null and void. No matter who approves it. Yes. It doesn't matter this consent. It doesn't matter this dowry. It doesn't matter the circumstances. Even if parents are involved. It doesn't matter. That is null and void. Now you've seen how people react. You know you've been in court. You've seen how the reaction from both family of the accuser and the accused. Defendant and the you know. So if you look at how we are as a society. How do you see the country and the state of the society as we know it when it comes to these kind of defilements. What comes into your mind when you sit in that courtroom and you are hearing all these stories all these cases. And of course most of them I presume are for concerning the ladies the female as opposed to the men of course the male are also there. But most of them are the ladies. How do you see the society as it is as of now moving forward. Would you say that there are some things we need to work on. There are definitely a lot of things we need to work on. To simply start with we need to create awareness in the society. Not just the urban centers also the rural sectors. Because these men need to know that okay mostly men they need to know that this is wrong. And this is what you will face if you are convicted. They need to know it's life imprisonment for any child below the age of five. They need to know that there's nothing like consent. So if you defile a 16 year old and then they tell you oh yeah but I agree to it. That is not a defense. You are a grown up. You need to be protecting the child. Even if the child says I accept it. Yes you cannot be like she said yes she agreed. That's why we say it takes a whole village to raise a child. This is where your responsibility as an adult comes in to protect the child. And it's worrying because most of the children are vulnerable. And it goes all the way to simple things like sweets. Simple things like exchanging small gifts in exchange of sexual activities. If I'm to say. But then to come back to your question if there's anything that we're doing. Recently our CJ Mata comment. Yeah. Just recently as they were celebrating the women judges. International women judges. She came up with the special courts on sexual gender based violence. And with a policy of no adjournments. What this means then is that if there's no adjournments it means the healing process of the victim is shorter. It also means that evidence is not going to be lost in between. Because if the court process is longer. It means that evidence is going to be lost. Witnesses are going to give up on the way. They're not going to show up every time. And you as a victim looking at your cues or your defiler every time you come to court. It's sort of a main thing. So it prolongs your healing process. So if there's no adjournments in between it means the case period will be shorter. And for you as a victim it's easy for you to heal quickly. And that also means just to serve to you as fast as possible. So that's a good step we've so far can say we have made. Yes. And I love the fact that you're saying that you know what as a society we still need to do something about it. And the CJ Mata comment also chose to be at the fault line. To come up with ways and measures that we can be able to you know fight such kind of offenses especially concerning gender based. And that's what legal system is all about. Yes. So let me get from you. As you've been working under you know the defundancy of legal systems. What are some of those stories that you've managed to come across that have you know. That hit you know that those things that you you hear and you're like you cannot forget. Those experiences that you go through and and it touches you. It leaves a mark and it makes you question so many things at the same same time. Yeah. So during the period of COVID when it had just hit. Yeah. Yeah. That's when I also just founded the organization. And I was not talking to the community around me and just see how I can help because the cases of defilement had gone up. Yeah. And there's this case in in Kawanguare which really I still remember it and I'm still I can't get over it in my head. And this is where the mother of this 14 year old works as a house help a house manager in some suburb somewhere. The father is a drunkard. So because of COVID there are restrictions. The boss to the lady the mother says you cannot leave the house because of COVID. So she has to work from home. You have to work from there. Yeah. So they are not off. They are not. So she has to leave her 14 year old and a six year old son with a father. Yeah. So they stay together as a family. No. So the mother is working. So she cannot leave her workplace because of COVID. Oh. They do not want it spread. Okay. You know commuting coming back and all that. So she has to stay at work. She has to stay at work. So these are a 14 year old girl with a six year old boy and the father who are in the house. Home. Yeah. So at home. So the 14 year old has to literally take care of their family. Yeah. And as much as the mother would send in some money. But she has to cook. She has to clean. She has to ensure the brother goes to school. She has to ensure that the father gets also his meals in time. Because it is a lady. Yes. A girl that should be doing those things. And normally how we are oriented as a society. So it goes to a point where now the father started defiling the girl. And the girl got used to it. And now we come in and be like this is not right. This is not supposed to be happening. And you need to report your father. The girl said no. She goes to school. She is my father. How do you expect me to report my father. And my mother is not there. I have to take up all her duties. And this is one of them. Wow. So how do you convince a daughter to go to the police station and report the father. The mother never knew about it. The mother didn't know. She was a twerk. All she could do is just communicate. And send some money here and there. So these are you as the girl she felt like she had the obligation to do that. And she didn't see the need to put her father behind bars just because of that. Yeah, that was that was deep. And you just don't know how to help. So she needs more counseling. She needs more talking. She needs to be removed from that environment fast because it's definitely toxic for her. But she's still there. No, no, no. That was in 2020. So we managed to talk to her. She went to a different place to stay with another relative. You can just separate the two first. Wow. Yeah. So touching. So touching. And this, that is just one of them. You deal with so many and you're like the world is definitely, you know, it's a good place for the kids. We're talking about the strength of a woman. Yes. And I love that you, you know, you, you're getting yourself out there. You want to challenge the status quo. You want to change it. You know, we are not going to, to allow things to up to happen. You know, just because one person feels as though, you know what? It's happening less. It's okay. It's happening. Oh, you ought to be the voice to the voiceless. And, and, and I love the fact that you're choosing to stand for women and not just for women, anything concerning gender. Yeah. You stood out for me. You did something. And of course I want you guys to, to, to check this out online. This particular lady did something that was so unique. You remember the issue of the border, border operator? You remember that she filed a petition. That's an amazing thing you did Sheila. What, what made you do that? And it came in so quickly. I saw that that was your petition. The one that was being shared online. I see it everywhere. Okay. Yes. And I wouldn't say I did it. I would say my organization did it. Yeah. Because it was more of teamwork. So what happened that day is this. I think it was on the 5th. On the 5th of March. Yes. So someone, a member of legal system brought it up to our attention. And she was like, something has happened and it's circulating and I don't like it. I looked at it. I just cringed. Yeah. It brings shivers. This is not a position you would want anyone to be in. And some of us who were there just feeling sad and angry. But one of our board members called Jacqueline O'Mall. I said, let's do something. Let's start a petition. And we were like, yes, that is it. Let's start a petition. And after 5 minutes negotiating and researching and just going through all the available loads, we came up with a whole list of the changes we want to see, the proposal. You know, one thing that I love is when our woman wants to do something, working, running up a motor. Yes. Things work. Everything was put aside. If you're working on something, it was put aside and we had all the write up ready. In 5 minutes, it was out. In 2 hours, we had over 100 signatures. Wow. Yes. You wrote it within 5 minutes? Yes. Yes. 5 minutes. The strength of a woman. One of us came up and said it was fun. You put everything aside and it was teamwork and everyone was just shooting point after point and after. And everything was out. I'm really glad Kenyans agreed to that because not everyone is online, but those who are online were able to sign. They agreed with whatever happened was wrong and should not happen again and we really need laws to regulate the border-border business. We accept that many livelihoods depend on it and we accept that it is income generating. But a few people who are, we call them the wrong writers, they shouldn't spoil for others. Continue on your screen there. That is the document itself. Yes. Yes. Kazisabi-san. Kazisabi-san. Kazisabi-san. What was the, how did it end? What was the end result? And Temuka, what was the outcome of that whole process for you? Okay. So we managed to gain over 230,000 signatures. That was impeccable. Currently now we are working with change.org where we started the petition to see how we can come up with, how we can implement the proposals that we had. And since we also have political goodwill on this, we've seen what the president has said. We've seen what the interior CS cabinet secretary has said, Mr. Matiangi. We've seen what the transport sector is doing, the police. You have the backup of everyone. So we have everything in place. We have all the support. We just need to ensure that we support NTSA to come up with the training. The registration, as the Mr. President said, they'll be given free licenses. So they don't need to pay for it. Is it smart license? Yes, smart license. They don't need to pay for it, but it needs to be done within 60 days. And so far, as you speak, there are only 15% of riders with licenses out of 2.4 million. So we need at least 90% if not all given licenses. And before they are given licenses, they need to be vetted. They need to undergo the training. And not just the training for road safety. They at least need to undergo training for first aid. They need to undergo training on being non-sexist. They also need to undergo training of being non-violent and what to do if there's an incident, an accident on the road. How do you handle it? They need to know the procedure. There's some more complaining that you're passing a blanket judgment from one isolated case. Then the good ones need to report the rogue ones so that they don't spoil the business for everyone else. And I'm saying that this is way overdue because this has been happening. And not just what's happened on Wangaril Mathai Road, which was sexual and physical violation. We've seen border-borders doing robbery with violence. We've been seeing accidents on the roads caused by border-border riders. We've seen so many things that are criminal in nature happening on our roads caused by border-borders. So if we have to stop it so that we can streamline the whole business, so be it. We'll suffer a bit but we'll also make it easier for those who are intentionally wanting to do the business do it properly in a good way. We're also protecting those who really want to be in for the business bit of it. And we also appreciate them. We know sometimes you're running to the airport and you're late and the only saviour is that border-border guy. And it's a good business. We do deliveries within two minutes. It's gone, it's sent. We're complaining that the motorbikes have been impounded and that crackdown was lifted. Yes, it's been lifted. But now the police are saying, you know what, the crackdown was lifted but it doesn't mean that we release your motorbikes. Some of these border-border operators are complaining. They're saying, you know what, you are asking for bribes. We will not give you bribes. Well, that is another whole total different issue. And everyone is, I think it's a cobweb? Yes, it's a cobweb that we shouldn't be now taking advantage of the situation. If the border-border has been important because of these and these mistakes and let's look at them, let's ensure that by the time we're releasing it ABCD has been done. But don't ask for bribes. Now, do you think that from such a case we are going to see less instances of gender-based violence on our roads? How do you see it coming up in the future? Yes, so this is how I compare it with. You remember eight years ago, we all went out saying, my dress, my choice? Yes, I remember. You remember what happened? The incident was based on the fact that the lady was not properly dressed. In the matter to operators, we said to sexually assault her. But it was based on that fact. And everybody went with placards outside saying, my dress, my choice. And the matter to operators were actually penalized harshly and heavily. And that has stopped. That made a very big impact. Right now you can dress as a woman. I can dress into anything. And no one should accuse me of that. No one should rape me because of how I've dressed. So the same will happen. Only if we make haste before the national amnesia sets in. Yeah, it always sets in. We should maximize on this anger so that we regulate everything before we all forget about it. That's what I can say about it. Can I forget? We forget a lot. And tomorrow there's going to be another incident. And if no one is going to record it and pass it on, we will not know. Yeah. Now I'm wondering what is the role of the normal Kenyan citizen when it comes to this fight against gender-based violence? Because even as I was looking at that video, some Kenyans were saying it should not be recording a video about it. It should be doing something. It should be talking and not just recording. But on the other side, if it was not recorded, we wouldn't have known about it. So what is the role of us as Kenyans? First and foremost, we all have our privacy rights and our constitution. And that was in version of privacy recording. But I wish instead of recording, just that one person within the screams would have come and said, stop. Stop it. That's all. I'm so sure men will listen to each other. If one person would have been, no, you need to stop instead of recording. Maybe it will have avoided the sexual assault. But also as, I don't know if it's all men, but you saw the video. Every man in that video, it's like they were sent from, they were reading from the same scripts, from the same text. Everyone going there was going there for the same thing. Not all men. Okay, the people who were there. You think they have been sent or they had foreseen that this incentive is going to happen and this is how we're supposed to respond to it. All of them are going to just try and... It's like vultures. Yeah, and they are going for the same thing, same action. So what does that tell you about our men now society? Will you just talk to our men? Yes, for those who are sent enough, so by now, please talk to our men. There's something wrong somewhere and it's not about border-border. It's about our men. They need to respect people's privacy. They need to respect people's women's body. And it's high time you just respect each other on human grounds. That's all. If it was a man in that car, I don't think his first worry would be his genitals. His first worry would not be that. His first worry, maybe, his property in the car, his car being damaged. And I'm not saying that is allowed, that's not allowed, but his first worry would not be I'm going to be sexually assaulted. Yeah, because the words of a man and the words of a woman in the case of an accident are so different. They are so different and that means women are more vulnerable and you have more things not to worry about. So hence you need more protection. And from that video you can say, you can tell we really need more protection. We do, we do. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want you to have a final word and speak to Kenyans, generally, our take on for the day. You know, what would be your parting shot that you want Kenyans to hear you and this will be your voice of the day. You can talk to them, that is your camera. Hello Kenyans. We all have rights. We are all human. And our rights are in the constitution. It does not differentiate between a man or a woman. So for us to enjoy our rights as enshrined in the constitution, we also ought to respect other people's rights. If you prevent me from enjoying my rights or curtail my rights, in one way or another, you're also preventing your rights or preventing to enjoy your own rights. And I'll just target on the same incident that happened on Gary Mathai Road. The people who violated these ladies' rights to privacy and sexually assaulted her, now where are they? They do not have a right to freedom because they violated the other person's rights. So respect my rights and in return you're also respecting your rights. That's what I can say. Thank you so much. Sheila, you're doing a good job. Thank you very much. I'm impressed. Really I am. How can people find you on social media if somebody wants to get a hold of you? Okay, so I'm mostly not a social media person but I'm mostly on Twitter and you can find me on Sheila, but you can find legal sister legal on Twitter and legal underscore sister on Instagram. So check them out, legal sister. And here you talk about fighting for the rights of ladies. Should I say ladies or just any? Children, society. Male or female? Yes, both. Thank you so much Sheila for coming. Thank you very much. I appreciate your presence and of course my regards. Thank you for having me. All right, all right, that is Sheila Magomere, a founder and CEO of legal sister and advocate of the High Court of Kenya joining us today in this particular conversation and this has been the strength of a woman. We're taking a short break, we'll be back in a bit.