 I certainly want to bring you in terms of, she just mentioned of the houses, and we have seen some levels of dependency, other than the decisions they make. In terms of looking at the standard the Senate, a few months ago, in terms of the revenue sharing, moving forward with the lesson learned from people aspiring to become politicians and becoming leaders for that sake, We are not going to say that situation. In fact, there is going to be more division as we approach 2022 because we are approaching now the political period. It's 2022. And by next year, we will be saying that election will be the following year. So I foresee a situation where there will be more sharper division. And the problem that my sisters highlighted when there was a patch within the jubilee and the house leadership was changed most specifically in the Senate where Murkomen, Susan Kihika and Professor Kendiq were moved from their respective position. And these were the people who were shaping the jubilee agenda in the Senate. And they were very instrumental in passing most of the jubilee decision in the Senate. And Kenyans were shocked when the revenue bill was told in parliament because the Rungu Kangata, Samuel Pogisho and Professor Kamar team failed to convince and whipsen it to pass the jubilee revenue bill. And it ended up in a situation where there was a team which was formed. And unfortunately, among the people in that team were the people who had been removed from the leadership position. So you can clearly see the issue is not about just the changing of leaders but when we are changing some leaders or when you are changing leadership position we must look at the people who are going to replace the others in that position because if they do not fit the bill we are going to suffer. And that is the situation where we ended up dragging the bill. Counties did not receive money in time and even up to date counties have not received a single penny. Counties are collapsing. So what I expect and what I know is that going to next year we are going to have more politics starting with the bi-elections that are already up. So we are going to have a more sharper and divided parliament and senate. Just to add on what he has said, I think the reason why we I don't want to call it a quagmire but the reason why we find ourselves in such situations is because political parties in this country do not have ideologies they stand for. So today ODM stands for these two years down the line they change. But when political parties in this country will reach to a level we have ideologies we can defend. It doesn't matter who comes in. You see the reason why the when Keheka was removed Murkelman was removed is because Jubilee in itself you know the ideologies they keep shifting goalposts. But if Jubilee had an agenda which they started maybe in 20 that team that they stand for Yeah the big for agenda or whatever but they keep shifting so today the focus is dealing with Ruto the next thing is focusing you know ideologies keep changing but what I'm trying to expound is if political parties set up ideologies set up manifesto to the extent even after 2022 and let's say even Ruto or Guru does not sit to exist because we human beings people can die anytime you know when you sit to exist but can they outlive can you be outlived by that why am I saying that when you look at developed countries they have ideologies the only thing is that the ideologies they just metamorphosis right but the principle remains the same so if it's freedom freedom is protected throughout for over 200 years but in Kenya we find ideologies keep changing It's different from how you began and how it is totally different to the point you cannot even underline what is the basic principle they were actually fighting for so having said that it means if Jubilee had a proper manifesto you know you can say you have big for agendas but what is your underlying principle at the end of the day when when when ODM says it's democracy what is this democracy that you're talking about at the end of the day to the point it doesn't matter who comes into power because once they come into power both ideologies what we will shift them and we will even direct them in the way that they should literally actually go but because we don't have well established ideologies as a country even you end up having the confusion all right be it as it may Joe what major policies would you say have been passed this year that have benefited this 19 big time the policies that we have seen this year majorly we can start with the in terms of infrastructure one thing that we must give Jubilee and its government and with all its problem that it has managed to to perform is the infrastructure in terms of roads in terms of water in terms of electricity Jubilee has performed very well compared to other government if you look at the records in terms of termact road from 2013 up to date and from 2013 back you can see these are these are sharp rise if you look at the electricity connectivity despite the fact and you must be aware of the issues that are ongoing in kplc but they have been people have been connected to the electricity from all areas in other areas that Jubilee had proper policies but has failed in terms of implementation is you can get there in terms of legislation the work that parliament and senate have done in terms of implementing legislation you can cite something that is very quick and has impacted the youth of this country is to do with gambling you have seen the policies that jubilee has come up with gambling and matiangi has had the fights with the gambling companies that is a significant issue to some extent we have reduced the rate of gambling in this country and we are looking to to help our brothers and sisters we've become real hustlers yes then there's other policies which in terms of implementation it has been now it has turned out to be corruption if you look at the if you look at field security and that is coming up with irrigation schemes you have seen a good project a project that was going to help the people has been messed up because of corruption story that is aurora and kimwarel that is not to say that aurora and kimwarel money has been stolen or somebody stole the money but corruption was used to stop the project and kenyans are not being told the truth is that the corruption the alleged corruption in aurora and kimwarel was used to stop the project if you look at because what am i saying that the same model that is being used in aurora kimwarel financing the project is the same model that was used to finance sgr so unless you are telling me corruption is corruption in aurora kimwarel then it is corruption with sgr you cannot point it as a one of the one of the projects of jubilee then another issue i must not miss to say because as a young person in this country jubilee had a fantastic manifesto and policies to promote the youth but in one way or another in terms of implementing jubilee has failed the youth you can remember the youth fund issues and uh enterprise where the ceo squandered money and the project ended up the youth council and its politics has collapsed so and in terms of now youth being represented and seeing a youth being appointed in a state position and political arena we have been shortchanged positions that require youth to be given that position they have ended up to the older older guys and we respect them now it does not mean that we don't respect them we respect them but for heaven's sake those positions and if you look at the dynamics of this world certain position must be held by somebody who falls within that bracket wisdom comes in age all right so there are some one or two things that jubilee has really tried but it has here it has had some shortcomings all right betris uh what would you say has been the hits of 2020 and the misses 2020 the one of the greatest mist definitely was how covid was handled that one i will keep on hammering actually coming yeah i will keep on hammering because livelihoods have been lost and being an economist i don't know how long it will take for the country to recover because the effects would be felt even five years to come because big corporations have sank big companies have sank down and sunk with the kumon mani actually did maybe i will just agree with my brother one of the the greatest thing the highlight of this current situation that the jubilee has been in its true infrastructure has really improved and i'm glad marginalized communities have been able to access uh infrastructure in terms of even hospitals i even so krivoia now is having a very uh i think umoza level six kind of a hospital that that is good news kakamega the same thing it's not only now in central that you find people are being built for hospitals but you can go even to ajil is a new host to come up uh people can access uh medical services uh but apart from buildings now where the what is it where the issue now is really now testing uh this government is in terms of human resource that is where these are very hikap they would have very nice even in kajone they have a very good infrastructure it comes to hospital so infrastructure apart from the roads and electricity we have seen hospitals coming up even to the interior parts of the country where you could not have access uh healthcare service so that is a big up but now it's one thing to have building it's another thing to have functional functional building that that that's where the the issue is so functionality of this even over you know they open the odaya odaya it's not an annex of kh which is good because who would have thought in odaya people have such a high level kind of a facility but now what has led odaya hospital not to be open is because of human resource so it became a hitch so people wondering who will incur the cost of being the healthcare workers so i think uh what we need to learn from all these aspects it's true they had good you know we are very good at uh paper we're writing you know it's like writing a very good composition but the only way we can know that your that your theory works is when it's when it's put to the test when it's put for practicals and we can see results so i think that's where the challenge of the jubilee government has been they were very good theoretically anyway they talked they said nine stadiums my friend nine nine stadiums so maybe it would have solved the gambling issue because they used to have been engaged but think about it but topa is very good they have very good power but when the robber meets the road that's where the problem is so that's one so and the hindrance to implementation in all these aspects and this whole covid uh billionaire issue so they had a good plan let's get PPEs for the healthcare workers it's a very good plan on paper but when it came to implementation what was the greatest hindrance greed because greed brews corruption so greed among us our leaders greed among us our value system as kenyans that greed is what is killing implementation of very good projects on paper because the moment we remove greed and corruption will be nafsi i call it to be nafsi every kenyan things of themselves and in the problem is you cannot sleep in 10 houses at the same time you cannot sleep with 10 women at the same time as well as it's one at the same time you cannot be eating 10 plates at the same time we need to understand that and the moment we understand that it means you implement something because you love the people and the benefit it will bring to the people but because of corruption we have very good paper written but implementing becomes a very difficult so jubili government has had very good things on paper they have tried to implement but even those roads and infrastructures they have built the cost has been tripled 10 times finally maybe odaia has already been in mejengwa but when you look at how much it would have cost the taxpayer it would have been way cheaper than how it than the current cost that it it has been incurred again so until we saw that issue of greed would be nafsi that corruption aspect maybe odaia would have been way cheaper building it then the resources that remained would have maybe hired the healthcare personnel you know that will have not have been there but because of greed the cost is up to the point there is no money remaining to hire to hire to hire the healthcare all right in the interest of time we have to move to different matter and maybe probably this is where we will finish is still in politics we had the impeachment of governors two of two of them have been impeached one of them survived and if you look at the the the accusations are similar so the question is mbona joe one of the things that you must highlight on the the three impeachment we have had the that one of governor waiguru that one of whitey two and that one of sunko you can see the inconsistency in the in the way those impeachment have been handled one the way you have highlighted all of them had similar accusations all of them were approved by the county assemblies but the issue was at the senate and the biggest issue out of it was the political correctness within senate because these 26 senators who voted to impeach sunko and voted to impeach whitey two at the 76 who protected waiguru and inconsistency in the sense that the procedure in impeaching whitey two and the procedure in impeaching sunko was mishandled in the sense that the two third majority was not achieved at the county assembly but senate went and upheld the impeachment but waiguru's impeachment achieved the two third at the county assembly but she was saved at the senate so you can see the inconsistent but out of it what kenyans must learn from it is that some people you must be able to please your political godfather if you are knowing your political godfather you are not going to be saved in terms of in politics in this country so the big boys are the ones who determine who to be saved and who to be chopped all right bichis sanitesi lisha time yasunko ah joville this is sanitization is a very detrimental to the to the development of this country why am i saying that it's because we'll have a rogue reader who robs people robs the country in you know hinders development but because they are lying That means the law is partial, and that also shows impunity in itself. It means we as people disregard the rule of law. In essence, why then would you waste money creating a law? Only for you not to observe it. It was better we live like uncouth people, primitive people. Everybody to live as they wish because why is there a law in the first place? So having looked at that, it means that going forward, Kenyans then should ask themselves, even now this whole bibi I think, if we cannot uphold the law, someone was actually saying, if Uwuru was not observing the law, and even Rila is not also observing the law, right? There are many instances that they have gone against the law, right? Then they come back to us, they want us to amend the same law that they themselves will not observe. It's like short changing the masses. That's literally short changing the masses. And I think that is what Maraga in the Chief Justice was trying to fight, to try and say, let uphold the law so that the law can never ask to prevail. Because if the law is upheld, I'm telling you there will be no violence. If the law is upheld, people will not fight brother against brother because we are respecting the rule of law. But because of the impunity, which we learn from our leaders, that case that we have just seen of the impeachment, it means tomorrow somebody will fight because they can run to the Capitol Hill, we can run there very fast. Then all your sins have been forgiven and yet people have really suffered. So the unfortunate thing with all these impeachments, even for 82 and Kunko, they look like they are from the same calibre, the way they behave, the good is there, the way they act. It seems that the system was trying to read the street kind of populas because Uingori is not very favourable with the population but these two looking at how they act now, they are so similar. And yet the same system trying to remove them out, it must have been due to very sinister moves, maybe they were being sanitized because of the uncouthness and their lack of decorum to put it because even them having been governed as in the first place, people really wondered which root did they use, which root may use because when you look at these individuals... The voice of the people. I think this is why we can agree the city hall politics, look at how Kunko began, he removed Igale, frustrated him, frustrated him to the point Igale is like, ah, I was better off being in the banking sector, there was structure, there was, alright. Then the next thing when Igale is of what happens, Ilati is the next person to be and even you look at the Ben Motura that we are talking about that is being subjected. This is another uncouth someone with no decorum, somebody who has not even gone to school being propelled again. So it beats logic why do you remove one who has no decorum and then you want to propose. Actually there is a argument going on that Igale did not resign properly and IBC still holds the record that we have a deputy governed who has Igale. So we will have a scenario where he comes back and he says, why? Me have been here. You are kidding, Joe. We have run a Hilary. Two rooms down this way. You see, the whole world and Kenyans know Igale resigned. But the electro body? You see, you see. The issues surrounding Nairobi, you can see the issues surrounding Nairobi starting way back from the election period. If you remember during the Jubilee nomination, at one moment, Sanko was denied clearance at Jubilee for certain issues were highlighted. Then later on, Sanko was given clearance at the last minute and he ended up defeating Peter Kenneth. The same issues that were raised at that moment are the same issues that were raised the other day when Sanko was being impeached. So let us not take Kenyans for a ride. And the Nairobi politics have been made in a sense that there are certain people seated somewhere in a comfortable sitting room with AC. They just manipulate Nairobi politics. They switch this gear, tomorrow they switch another gear, the following day they switch another gear. But may I want to remind Nairobians because I'm not a voter here in Nairobi. I want to remind Nairobians that democracy is not an event. Democracy is a process. It starts by identifying a leader. You identify a leader, you look at the qualities of this person. Is he eligible to be a leader in terms of integrity, in terms of his vision and agenda manifesto? You interrogate all of those things. Then you go to an election, that person wins If that person is elected, he takes the office, democracy dictates that now he must be accountable to the common manaiji. He must implement or he must go ahead and start building what he promised the manaiji as we interrogate that person. So what democracy offers you is this. Within five years you must interrogate this person so that you determine if he is suitable for the next election. But in our current situation people are going to blame and people are going to make an assumption that democracy failed the people of Nairobi. No, Nairobians were given an opportunity in 2013 they had Dr. Evans Kidero. A very, a very nice guy, somebody who has achieved everything within the corporate world but into politics he failed. The Nairobians said, let's change. Quick reactions, medics are on strike. Now they hold, you call them, on strike quick reactions as we finish up. Where are we heading? I think it's a very sad state of affairs because a strike within a pandemic is a very dangerous thing because I think I have reached to a resolution this is my own opinion whereby the healthcare sector should be similar to security. I think the government needs to sit down as much as it's a profession but it reaches to a level it's almost similar to security and we need to find a solution to stop these kind of strikes in the future and I agree the medics themselves are also not clean they are not quite as clean they also have their own faults and their own issues but be as it may the government needs to sit down and solve this problem once and for all and I am not an advocate for unions within such a noble profession because there is a reason why it's a noble profession here we are talking about lives of individuals and that's why you are saying and even Baba he was very much castigated the other time they were saying but you too can hold to defend life you see you too cannot before you receive money in your pocket you have to defend a life because a life cannot be bought back a life cannot be needed but then they must understand that these doctors also have needs and these nurses also have needs at home that needs to be met so these are very what is it called there is a tag of war I told to defend a life on this end but in my home there is no garlic to eat you see it's a very great tag of war so we need to reach a level just like the police officer as much as he said peanuts there is no one that the police officer will decide that we leave the boulders off on health crisis what I can say that the cardinal role of a government is to protect the lives and property of its people on this one the government has failed to protect the lives of Kenyans and the issue around all this problem starts with priority if the government can prioritize its issue and put the health sector as the first issue education the second issue the national and our economy and national death third issue as we go along then we have the BBI we will have the right way of solving the problems that we are facing as a country thank you so much and Jo for coming and speaking to us and trying to put things into perspective thank you so much for staying with us we will be taking a very short break when we come back to be time for career they have been my guest and political analyst and Jo Kalinde political analyst thank you so much see you in Abitam Dereva Hillary