 OK, well given that natural silence has fallen on the room, it seems like a good time to begin. I'm Mark Ruslan, the Director of Research at the Arts and Humanities Research Council. I'm one of the sponsors of this event and I'm very much taking the interest in one we've been name checked quite a bit this morning, which is always good to get. But also thank you very much about the ways in which our community of researchers and the communities we engage with, our research projects, o'r ddweud ynghylch yn y cyfle hir. Mae hir yn gweithio i gyd yn eu cyfrifiadol, yn dda i ddechrau'r bethau ar gyfer y gwirionedd, a'r ddweud y gallai eu ddechrau ar y ddechrau, ac mae'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r crediol. O'r cyfrifiadol yma, ac mae'n eu llei'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud, Mae gennym ni ddych chi ar y panledig bynnag oeddwn ni'n gennym nhw i'n gweld ei fewn i gael gweithio. Felly mae gennym ni'n gŵnnerio'n iawn i'n gwybod ei bod y ddod i ddod i fynd o'r sefynt yng Nghymru, a ddych chi eich cael eu cyfan yng Nghymru, a'r gweithio i'r sefynt o'r sefynt yw panledig cyngor, yna'r mosqueai. Y pethau hefyd yma yma yn y diwedd yn fwy ymgledig ar y ddod i'w cefnodol, ar ycyddai'n cyf nullwyr newydd, y reflectiyng ymddur yn y cincirau, But we like to think towards the future in this session. We are going to do a different kind of set-up, in some respects, because each of our presenters is going to have five to seven minutes, or two, to pitch us, is that the best way to describe it. At their perspective on this question, based on their experience and also the projects they are involved with we are not going to take them as a springboard to be, in some cases, provocative, with the comments they will say. ond, in most cases, in fact in all cases, wants to generate perhaps a different kind of debate and discussion for the remainder of the session. So these would be reflections of perspectives from their own experience and also a sense of what they see emerging from the context of the discussions that have been taking place at this event already. I've got the challenge, not only of deciphering your handwriting on the postcards but also feeding in some of those comments into the debate that we'll have after the presenters have all done their presentations. But there are discernible trends emerging from that which I think will prove fruitful that we're tied together but also show up some of the differences in the perspective of the panamins this afternoon and also some of the debates that have been taking place during the course of today already. So we're going to go straight into the presentations. I'll introduce each speaker just before they present to give you a context from their background and where they're coming from and once we've had all the presentations we'll go into an open discussion amongst the panellists but also with the rest of the event as well. So our first presenter is Dr Chris Meany. He is an architectural historian and a chartered planner and he's asked me to emphasise that dual perspective as providing the context of what he's going to say. He was trained as an academic historian in the US, moved to the UK and worked on English heritage for the years but for the past 15 years he has been a strategist as a senior partner in the planning and development team at Montague Evans, chartered surveyors and property advisors working from the firm's central London office. There he runs a team of professionals who work on development projects and you'll see in the programme the range of activities that he and his team have been involved with. He also continues to work on his academic research as a historian and has published extensively on the history of the conservation movement including William Morris so you may be able to answer Lloyd's question this morning what would William Morris do but that may well not be part of what he says in his presentation for us. So Chris can you do it to me? Good afternoon, thank you very much and on the post lunch the first one of them so I'll try to be a bit punchy. Is this on? So I'd like to look at a few things briefly in these opening remarks particularly I'd like to focus on the trend to list more and more post-war and indeed recent buildings what I'd like to do is briefly follow through the unintended consequences and conundrums this could rise to and venture to say by way of conclusion what other considerations we might take into account if we're considering whether or not to preserve a post-war building and my perspective is as Mark has said someone whose arc me goes perhaps quite unusually from academic practice through civil service effectively into a very commercial practice and so seeing the whole development process from purchase to disposal if you will because heritage has such a user of property. So first about listing and what's happened since in the last 10 or 15 years and the designation of recent and post-war architecture. Now the strict interpretation of the listing criteria I think should leave us in no doubt that for a recent building to qualify at any grade even lowly grade too may be not just special but really very special indeed and that's simply because they're not old they don't have that claim to our attention and yet over the last five years you would be surprised at the number of free-purchased villages, exercises I've done looking at 1960s buildings are they listable? Anything nowadays with a bit of curve appeal if I can put it that way will trigger an interest or worry from its developers and we need to get this looked into and that's interesting and at the same time I know the listing branch is that's a fair word with requests to list such buildings some of them are on five days requests and others are just fixations requests it's inevitable statistically when all this stuff is happening that more things will get listed from this period than they are What are the effects of this? Well a series of propositions I won't say these are certain but they're things that might happen in the future I think potentially first one of the effects to suppress the quality of new buildings once it becomes clear to an owner investate or developer investate for 500, 600 billion pounds in a stunning new building that at the end of their lease period in 20 or 25 years they won't be able to redevelop the building because of what we've listed is a serious disincentive to thinking about architectural quality the case is made very dramatically by the city of London over the last 25 years Peter Reeves has tried to make it into an excellent gallery of contemporary architecture gallery in 25 years it could become a museum of contemporary architecture so that begs the question should buildings winning awards for architectural excellence now simply be listed that just be done with the matter so that it is clear this is a really serious point of view issue for owners because World War II buildings and recent buildings are fundamentally unlike traditional buildings in the way they perform after the war they were built to minimum specifications a bit like race sources to do one thing and to do it very efficiently as a result they don't have an inherent redundancy and robustness to respond to new uses and they're often built with untried materials that need to be replaced and this challenges the very notion of what we can conserve now I'm very familiar with the repost to these observations, I hear it a lot well visiting is one thing, first we identify value and then it falls to the planning system to manage it and perhaps being controversial I'd say that's not an incredible response and I dare say anyone who says that has not had the pleasure of trying to negotiate a very contentious list of building consent for a building that has no future use could sound to be corrected what are the shortcomings of the designation system that are thrown up by this point I think as an art historian I can probably confidently say that our designation system is based on romantic ideals of the picturesque on what's purely visually interesting or historically of note it's not moved in fact one job since the late 18th century it's not got a world of sentiment and yet let's remember architecture is in most every case an apply art it is a social facility to those who develop own use advice property defining trade of the building is it's use or commodity value and that's what we think about and so in addition to something being attractive we should ask how well it serves its purpose, is it fit for it now these are not hard boiled commercial concepts you only need to think about the truvius arferty, ruskin, corpusie all of them and most architectural critics have always linked firmness, commodity with delight the important trial it's impossible to separate architectural quality from performance now skeptics might ask here on what possible objective basis then would you assess buildings well the answer is well very simple there are a number of objective bases that reflect buildings in use and their quality you might ask has a building been utilized fully for its whole working life is there value in the marketplace does it contribute to economic and social activity and vitality does it demonstrate the enduring qualities of good urban design is it reasonably easy to maintain would measure against other items on the market such as they are is it adaptable without any really major interventions or demolitions and critically last but not least are the people who use it happy in using it and want to be there all of these should in classical architectural theory and indeed modern architectural theory differentiate good buildings from bad buildings none of these are relatively considered when it comes to designate buildings now I think there is a very simple explanation for this and it's not offered by a way of criticism any civil administrative system only and can only reflect the values and understanding of the people who have set it up and who run it and I think probably there is a very big divide between the professionals that generally regulate the historical environment and those people who own buildings and have to develop them and I wonder if not the constituency of this conference proof of that there are as far as I'm aware no developers here today there's no building owners that have possibly decided headquarters which owns this building but there are special purchasers to find the role of these two for chartered surveyors red book there are no investment advisers here are there new people from banks dealing with investment how many other development surveyors are there here today this is overwhelmingly a conference which is about people in one sector with one background talking to itself and I don't mean to be critical of that it simply seems to be a matter of fact and I think even the way the designations are done they are done by the department for culture they could be done in consultation with the department for business innovation and skills that could be done as they once were through the planning industry now it's very easy to criticize and it's unfair just to leave you with criticism so I'm going to make two but I hope our pithy suggestions for how we might solve this problem I think we should take a more rounded view of what a building is it's not a piece of our history it's a social commodity it's something that embodies precious resources and it occupies land which must be used wisely in the interest of sustainable development and then second we somehow must try to bridge what is an increasingly wider gap in my experience of the two different perspectives of the academic and regulatory sector and the owning sector I think if we're to make any real difference in the way these matters are taken forward our second speaker is Royal Muley who's director of operations at the Heritage Lottery Fund Robert joined HLF in May 2007 in his current role as director of operations prior to this he worked as a regional director for English Heritage in the south west and before that as head of survey for English Heritage he trained as an archaeologist he purchased from Cambridge universities and also worked for the Royal Commission on the Historic Monuments of England specialising in the area of archaeology Thank you People are moving from here on the centre the ever-similarity between me and John Cowell and the panellys that the auditorium being built for both archaeologists this session we've been brief is about forward-looking and that's what I'm going to do in the next five minutes but first just wanting to summarise a little bit about what the lottery is, doesn't where it came from the discussion this morning touched on the whole business of the UK Great Britain and Northern Ireland we are a UK funder in the Heritage Lottery Fund we're very proud that we are a UK funder and we hope that people will continue whenever we discuss what might change we say well what's best for the heritage and we think that actually being a UK wide funder is best for the heritage whatever happens in the various countries happens in the various countries now why did the Heritage Lottery Fund then come into existence in one sense it was because of a politician who took a very very practical approach a politician who loved the arts and loved sports in particular and his opinion was the arts, culture, sport heritage will never compete with big boys of health and fitness welfare and education so if you want to compete you will never do it John Mose was the Prime Minister who created the lottery and said that for every £1 spent 28 people go to the causes those were the arts, community, sports and heritage so every time you buy a lottery ticket and how many of you buy a lottery ticket right? he goes up to £2 in October I won it last week and I didn't know whether to tell my children or not but it was only £10 so I did tell them if it was any more people buying because of the prices that's why people buy a lot of tickets £5 a pound goes to the heritage and since 1994 £5 billion has gone to the heritage that is an awful lot of money so well done to John Major the other thing that was raised this morning was the road of government and he talked a lot about the road of government for me it's very simple because if you don't and then you say the lottery will fund to do the strategy for UT what about it? we always have a very very firm no care loss minister I don't even care how much I say because and the word that they will use is to do with additionality the moment you start to as it were support government is a complete disaster because the lottery is completely independent for government if we were the phone call from the prime minister to say would you fund that project we would say it would depend on the quality of the project so we would not be involved and that's absolutely as it should be now what changes is what the government will or will not fund so the first act of the new coalition when they came in was to say we can't afford which we're not going to fund it which is laid down to English Heritage National Trust and Heritage Library Fund is a joint project and they said where are we going to find a 5 million product so our trustee said we'll give them a 5 million now that's not supported in the government the government said it would not fund it we didn't have to fund it, it's a visitor centre so they didn't need to fund it, it's not it's actually due to find a visitor centre from where they would make money whether it was the right decision or not completely different and one thing to say was what's the starting point in terms of successful heritage and I would say the starting point is to do with the community of people imagine the situation where let's go back to Stonehenge for a moment that the local population had been brought on board first all those years ago, however many years ago and actually thought it was a good idea to have a lot more time we would probably have them digging in now as it happens we don't but if you don't start with communities of people then you are walking into a disaster next question is what's it going to be like in 30 to 40 years time in terms of heritage and protection and that's one of the questions in the centre we've been looking at if you take the state of nature report built on the government report about how to protect the natural environment the summary and it is a really tight summary is more bigger than Joy Young and I would say let's have the same of a heritage I'm not necessarily saying I need more Shed of One we don't want any Shed of One because we want landscapes and areas understood in a much better way so that if it's Joy Young it makes a much better way to protect the natural environment because the two, to me, are completely terrible now finally, the other thing that's really hitting me is listening to the debate last night and looking through all the pages and everything else is that actually as a sector I think Chris is absolutely right we do spend too long talking to ourselves is we lack vision and I think we should focus on what the historic and natural environment should look like we get the heritage we deserve far too passive and far too reactive now, we have tried in the heritage lot of fun to look at this through the strategic framework before well worth looking at but it's a practical and pragmatic document it's well worth looking at if you want to ground for us but when you stand back from it as I try to do what is it actually saying and although I'm not a great Twitter I'm a lurking Twitter I just don't have the time for 140 words I thought well let's see if I can tweet a vision that was less than 140 words and this is it and it's 67 characters a future for the heritage co-op is that a character a future for the heritage use it, don't abuse it or you lose it, thank you so far we've had suggestions for the registration regime we've had a tweet we're now going to move on to a different context for some of this discussion with Michael Loveday who's chief executive of Officer of Heart which is an urban regeneration project based in Norwich he's been involved professionally in urban regeneration for more than 30 years and the heart project was established in 2004 he's also got a obstinacy of European collaboration experience particularly around the shaping 24 project which for those we don't know co-ordinates the principle of 12 heritage sites in Norwich so Michael one must be the other urban planner in the room I think after the first speaker I was asked to talk about a credible future for heritage protection and how it might work in the over the next 100 years possibly and I thought maybe a good basis is to look at where my organisation have come from and what might make it sustainable because that's what concentrates on a regular basis where Norwich based and our job is to co-ordinate and champion heritage within the east of England but we operate globally and have done work with the World Bank in Washington and the World League of Historics is in Nara to name a couple I think a very significant key to the future is as Bob just said engaging communities and the first step in doing that is to make them aware of what is there as several people have said we all live in the same clubs so we know about it but people out there don't know about it but they'd like to know about it we took heritage open days about nine years ago locally before we took it over there were 12 events attracting 5000 visits over four days last weekend we delivered the biggest heritage open day event in the UK or Ireland outside London over 200 events and 150,000 visits not 5,000 visits and we said to customers what did you think of that and I said it wasn't bad but you didn't do enough so we think the trick is to make people aware of what there is and put them stuff on to a historic environment database in the kind of language that we speak that's somehow getting it out so people can find out what it is and then use it and the other part of that is to make it coherent you can't just throw a riot of stuff at people you can't say there's a lot of old stuff in the East of England come and see it you have to make it coherent and one of the projects as the chair said that we've done recently is a project to pull together the principal 12 historic buildings in Norwich which we believe are probably one of the best sets of historic buildings in the whole of the UK and to get the set working as a coordinated destination but then we developed that further with a decent amount of European money by working with the 12 best historic buildings in Ghent in Flanders and creating a unified joined up coordinated set now the good thing about that was that people could read and use the set through a whole range of media as described up there were able to use them a lot more effectively but the other good thing was not just the joining up of the sites but the joining up of the institutions we were able to work with Flemish heritage experts people in cathedrals in Norwich were able to work with cathedrals in Ghent castles in Ghent old people's homes across the two cities and I think there for the future of heritage is another lesson we can't live in our little boxes and do our things on our own we have to collaborate with other people in the field and beyond the field to deliver inspirational and sustainable things for the sector the third point and you may have noticed on the first two slides there's a bottom red line to all the things I've talked about the heritage open days deliver something like three quarters of a million pounds of value over four days the Norwich 12 project I talked about delivered eight million pounds of value over three years and this is another project it's a sort of retail destination project that we delivered the heritage end for and as you see the new economics foundation found that it's likely to deliver 70 million pounds of benefit so you have to not just do it because it's a nice thing but you have to measure what it does and then shout about what it does as well this is not shouting at the government Lloyd came along and talked to a big international conference we ran in the east whilst November he spent an hour telling people there was no point in beating your head against the doors of the treasury to say our sector delivers value because they don't want to know if they ask you a question about demonstrating value so you need to do it to demonstrate to all kinds of other players in the economy and in the social infrastructure but not the treasury you need to engage audiences and the right audiences in the future people like her will be the future of the sector and if you look around the kind of venues that we support at the moment you won't see people like her you'll see people like me old, white, middle class and what we need in the future is to broaden and differentiate the audience to a wide range of things so we do what some of the speakers talked about this morning we do a thing called subversive heritage we're going to do a project about the guild system how interesting does that sound to young kids in schools so we subversified it by making it about dragons and we managed to attract 75,000 visits over just two weeks and have an economic impact of £400,000 you need to build new alliances I talked about one European project we're working on another one with a French with Paul Image Oat Normal B to deliver joined up views of how to use archive film and how to preserve and how to get it out there and you might think well it's got nothing at all to do with what we're interested in because presumably and predominantly we're interested in buildings what we've done is to do film shows in buildings to do film shows we've performed music in buildings to use friendships to steal our ideas and use them in England and I think learning from people immediately in our own sector that people across the North Sea and beyond is also a very useful thing to do I talked earlier about engaging the public or at least infecting the public I think you then need to turn them into advocates and we've done quite a lot of work with that so ultimately politicians won't think what we do is relevant unless the people who put the cross on our favour think it's relevant and if we manage to get to a position where the voting public cultural heritage is very important then politicians will think it's very important and I talked about our European friends certainly in Flanders and in France and a couple of weeks ago I was talking to the former Norwegian president of Iconos the governments there get it because the people get it and I think when we get the general public well behind heritage and we don't talk about wow, there are 500 members in this heritage organisation so that's quite important when we've got a whole public thinking heritage is very important then politicians will think it's important to put it on the agenda and you need to spin the product as well one of our very weird things is that when you leave or we're going to dump Coulomans mustard shop the only mustard shop in New Zealand in the United Kingdom four years ago was essentially going to dump it because it was hemorrhaging £100,000 a year we took it over turned it around but now we use it as a device again to subvert heritage people coming in thinking they're going to buy a jar of mustard and they go out with a lot of information about industrial heritage in their heads and I think that you also probably as several speakers have said need to think about different ways of selling it certainly several references to social media I know the first and some of the other speakers are going to mention digital means we've used virtual reality quite a lot we've worked with computer departments and universities a lot and I think again that's crucially about the audiences of the future get the media right and you will begin to hook the audiences in new ways thank you very much thank you and our fourth speaker is Matthew Gwenby who's professor of 18th century studies and director of research in the School of English at the University of Newcastle he's really extensively on the political fiction of the 1790s child readers and the history of children's literature and today he's going to talk a bit about one of the Care for the Future exploratory awards that we recently funded which involves very much children and also the digital so thank you very much for inviting me and I do have a position I do have a position on what is the future of heritage and I hope it's a very uncontroversial position it is to pick up on what Mike was just talking about there the importance of engaging children and young people the future of heritage in that sense that very literal sense this does come out of an AHRC project which shall be received generously if I may say so wisely funded which is about children's literature I'm a specialist in children's literature that's kind of relevant in some ways but it's mostly about the ways in which children are asked and will in the future engage with all sorts of different kinds of heritage it starts I mustn't get too focused on this because this could take up a whole of my five to seven minutes but it starts in the 18th century because I am very interested in the ways that right from the beginning 250 years ago, 300 years ago children were being introduced to heritage in some quite interesting ways through very early kinds of children's literature I'm not going to get sidetracked into talking about that although actually there is this kind of relevance but in fact what I'm looking at more in this project is the ways that children have during the 19th and especially in the 20th century and now being engaged with different kinds of heritage starting from that little boy looking at some drawings in the middle of stonehenge up to well, his stonehenge again on the right he said stonehenge to vibrate though on that hand there are some kinds of very healthy minds and kind of engaging strategies that you can see there as we've just heard I think this is uncontroversial because there can be no doubt really that this is the posterity that we are preserving heritage if we want to preserve heritage it's really children and young people we've got to reach the demographic I'm sorry if you're in that picture but the demographic of course the other issue is that so much of the actual criminal damage which is being done to heritage sites is by young people there's a face board but we all know about the face sites as well these are the people who are not just ambivalent about heritage very often but they are well, the people who put anti-intact anti-carrying aren't they these are people who are just very very hostile to heritage they are people who are very hostile they went out into one of the suburbs of North East Newcastle and they asked people there which local sites they liked, which they disliked and I like the column, the show column there which says if a relative was visiting you what would you show Segeduno does figure that's a thought on the Roman Wall in Newcastle but top is Asda that is the kind of thing we're dealing with it's very easy on Friday I gave a lecture a little chalk at Paul's School for Girls it's a very different kind of environment I talked about this kind of thing they were very engaged with heritage they were just model consumers of this thing they were very opposed to any kind of digital solutions as well it interferes with the site they were saying but actually when we go to a different kind of constituency of young people the digital has tremendous possibilities I'm sure we can all agree as something which can energise and really engage because it's new because it's exciting digital possibilities I think we're a couple of these very fast things which are already being done there are lots and lots of really wonderful heritage sector initiatives things are being undertaken I put up there some images from the Palace Explorers programme which the Historic Royal Palace is running it's a real model of best practice I think in some ways it's about the way in which children can be engaged with something like the Tower of London or Kensington Palace over a long course of time partly digitally through blogs and various apps and things online but also through a kind of traditional version of a character who's involved in the story where he appears to the children but this is work here a big interactive computer game which they're running very successfully at Colonial Williamsworth in the States academics are producing lots of very interesting kind of technically on-volunt pushing technologies that weird person on the left is looking through a time telescope you adjust the telescope and you don't see it doesn't bring things into focus you go backwards and forwards through time as digital images are shown at the end of the telescope this wonderful thing here is kind of when you hold it up to a painting and you slide a thing across and it shows you the painting in various states of composition where you can see how you can do that with these buildings as well the ruin goes back towards the more polished building as it was in the 13th century 12th century whatever it may be private sector initiatives as well this is just an example from where I live which is York you can go around, there's a map and these holograms appear in your home you can have yourself photographed next to them there's innovative stuff I'm not saying for the moment that it's effective but it's innovative and these commercial companies it's lucrative for them as well children are making their own really astonishing interventions in this as well this picture on the right is from a game called Minecraft it was only launched a couple of years ago you make your own world and children do not just make motorcars and gene palaces they're making movies they're making museums they're making heritage sites in this world when we go forward just thinking very quickly about a couple of possibilities you can all think of ways in which this has been done extremely well we could have geocaches is where you have a treasure hunt going through a heritage site or playing a certain character from that heritage's past what I'm particularly keen on is trying to explore this one at the bottom here this idea of taking archives of different kind of heritage into schools allowing children to navigate their own sort of way through the archives about their local environment fitting into some of the things we've been hearing about a community curricula that Michael Goh wants us to embrace and that these children then can add their own stories their own material to that archive so it continues to grow what a fantastic way of engaging them over a long term but I'm no evangelist for digital products it's very exciting but there are all sorts of problems with it and when I'm engaging with the Heritage National Trust other bodies I'm continually being told problems from their point of view and users are telling me problems as well we are still in a world which well any of you who've looked at the 50 things to do before your 11, 3 quarters the National Trust is running and it's an amazing list it's rolled down a hill and in fact it's a climate tree it is not learnt to distinguish between a decorated and a perpendicular Gothic archery we're living in a very Russo-esque world Russo is still dominating our idea of what children should be like what child should be like what should be natural, what should be in the environment I'm not saying that's right or wrong but it may be very different from what children actually themselves think this picture in the top right summarises in some ways all that's bad with digital use doesn't it because there they are, they're in a wonderful environment I hope and actually all they're doing is looking at their screen shouldn't these places be places where the screen doesn't function in one place which the internet doesn't reach smartphone free zone also raises questions of accessibility not everybody has a smartphone is this going to just increase the kind of snobbishness at these sites although it has to be said that the smartphone membership will be up to about 95% of the population in this country in a couple of years so that's how heritage is right here with new technologies which will very soon become old technologies so there are very real anxieties about this I'm no evangelist for it but we certainly do need I think to do some more research in this area we need some evaluative research to work out whether digital interaction actually does pay any dividends or not let's analyse it over three or five years let's see whether people remember something about their visit that they made about a year ago if they have some kind of digital engagement with it if that's carried on after their visit itself let's also try and work out what the principles of engagement are there are plenty of new technologies coming on the street all the time some will be good, some will be bad different agencies are inventing their own but actually surely there have to be some principles which underline what will be best in terms of digital practice with all those things as possible kind of practices that have been embedded in any new product which is developed and particularly key as a literature person on the role of story interactivity and finally this is why I think this is uncontroversial we know as someone saying earlier that value is assigned by people these people are children because they will grow up to be the people who assign value in the future and we do need to engage them otherwise heritage is not going to have a very big constituency our speaker is Dr Kate Roberts who works for CADU the Historic Environment Division of the Welsh Government and she's worked there for more than 15 years she's currently the senior inspector leading the north and mid worlds inspectorate team and also a head of archaeology there before she joined CADU she worked for the Royal Commission on the Historic Monuments I feel like it's strange interoper in a peculiar land where things are similar and yet different at the same time it's very odd I'd like to pick up from some of the comments that came from the previous session which asked quite recently I think what is going on in the United Kingdom when so many changes take place when we see Scotland and England and Wales all starting to sort of pick up their own identities and move in different directions to some extent with heritage I also find myself perhaps the last proponent of a different model for I am genuinely a man of the ministry I guess a woman from the ministry because of course CADU is a part of the Welsh Government we are a government division and I am a civil servant so perhaps it's an opportunity to look at the different models that are starting to exist across the UK CADU, as it stands came into existence at the same time as the image heritage that was part of the Welsh Office and of course now as part of the Welsh Government we sit within the department of the past, age and the future along with other parts of the parts of the Welsh Government which includes divisions such as regeneration we find ourselves at health moving around as Welsh Government with different ministers currently we are actually within under the minister for culture and sport but previously we've been in the division of heritage, housing and regeneration which is actually housing, regeneration and heritage which is an extremely interesting accumulation of the life of interests under a single minister and of course under our previous administration when we had a coalition government and applied labour we actually had our own minister of heritage and I think this is a very important aspect of what has been happening in Wales over the last few years a very dynamic circumstance in which heritage has really started to have a very positive place within the Welsh Government as illustrated by a minister of heritage Presidents of Welsh Assembly's programme for government includes commitment to review heritage protection within Wales and at the first time Wales has really had an opportunity through the Government of Wales Act to review how we do things and assess for ourselves what would work best for Wales I should say I suppose that the counter balance to being within Government and this is something that we can discuss the advantages of being outside Government of being inside it's of course an accountability which works both ways Welsh Ministers have accountability caught through the Actions of Academy and of course thereby accountable for their voters to the public Wales from cutting in 2011 the Welsh Government published its Historic Environment Strategy which has recently been reissued just under our Academy of Ministers which was originally for the Welsh Historic Environment and sets out really to recognise, protect and to celebrate in placing Wales in the world so the last few years we've had for the first time a television series celebrating the story of Wales with that led by that renowned historian Hugh Meddwood who triumphed across the country side but brought a great deal of public interest to sites and as you can imagine we immediately started to see soaring visitor numbers at many of the sites that were shown in that television series similarly extremely popular was the television series The House I don't know if it was shown in England as well which was set in the World Heritage site at Llynefyn where a series of cottages were taken back initially to the period around the First World War and the second series was to the Second World War when families went back to live as their ancestors had in these terraced houses and again brought a tremendous popular interest in history and the heritage of in this case large families similarly we've had initiatives which I suppose to some extent because of the scale of work we've been able to implement a new interpretation project a heritage power Wales interpretation plan which seems to draw together all the main parties involved in the historical environment not just had in the National Trust or National Museum but local government local bodies, local site owners in projects to interpret sites not as individual places in the landscape but as collections as landscapes themselves encouraging people who visit a single site to then go on to follow the story as the land takes them to other sites that also continue that story into the landscape and also allowing Caddon an opportunity to bring out stories that maybe are not directly related to our own so-called national collection sites which in itself is not really representative of the heritage of Wales so where are we going in terms of protection well in the light of the programme for government's commitment to review protection we are in the midst of our own consultation the consultation for the future of our past went live in Joachim this year because little while longer until October 11 which is the closing of the consultation period that document was in itself a culmination of a year of discussion workshops horizon scanning and you name it sort of activities events including conferences where we spoke to a large range of bodies not just practitioners buildings and other interesting parties to try and really establish what was the general view of how heritage and the historic environment should be protected in Wales I have to say that a lot of what came out of that didn't really chime and with the discussions that have taken place here over the last two days there was a general feeling that the system as it stands is pretty good I'm going to sit and disagree with various people but the schedule investing and the other systems that we have in place actually serve a purpose and generally work there are obviously areas where things can be enhanced and things that need to be adjusted and improved particularly to meet the challenges which we see coming at us over the next few decades but this is all reflected in that document if you have an opportunity to read it it's not about changing legislation although there will probably be a heritage film it's about changing the culture really of how we work and embedding many of the recent changes which have taken place such as the adoption of conservation principles the document is made out of three snappy headings which again link very much with what we've been talking about here we have identified significance about how we identify and how we should be cared for and protected we have sustaining significance which is all about the management of change and I do emphasise that this change of culture to think about change as an inevitability that must be dealt with not trying to be stopped and the even more snappy title reviewing the organisational framework for the historic environment services in Wales is clearly also a very important element of it the objectives of the consultation the objectives of the new heritage protection for the Wales are outlined in five phrases in room protection increase flexibility improve accountability and transparency streamline and harmonise systems and strengthen delivery of historical environment services and it is not at the last point that I suppose still the document raises the very real concerns that I think is impure of it in the conversation today about just how sustainable the current national and local services are Wales isn't England although we share many of the same legislative procedures we do things differently and in that light we do still have common concerns and these I think the principle of what really is the visible production in the numbers of the amount of professional conservation expertise that we see particularly in terms of deteriorating the increasing budget cuts as those of you that have seen the document be aware there is currently also in Wales of the delivery of national government services which applies to flooding and the oil condition there are currently a few options that might be available for us to be merged or applies if any one of the outcomes is open we are starting further back in the process than our colleagues in Scotland a series of work movements are currently looking at this under the headings which again chime in the thought processes of today we are looking at questions on the services of knowledge of information survey, investigation conservation regulation, protection advisory services and public engagement because we can come to us recognise that those are the three legs of a kind of stool like any one or that the other of the system would fare depends on that just a few thoughts about the change in management because that was something that we talked about quite a lot yesterday and this view that sometimes perhaps heritage professionals have been seen as this thought trying to prevent change to my mind the acceptance of change is kind of gone with an argument within the profession conservation principles make it quite clear that we are not trying to stop change and accept a whole change and I think that within the profession is very difficult but nevertheless I think we have to spare a whole thought a spare a thought but poor conservation officer or migration violence inspector who finds themselves constantly faced with the absolutely unambuical challenge of making that decision about what is the effect of this development on the setting of this historic landscape is historic asset because it always is the setting it's markedly ever the 100s itself it's always the setting what is going to be the effect of this wind turbine is a small change but it itself might seem small but when it's taken as a cumulative of a consistent change what is the point when we have to say no we thought about the developer and their interests and how they're keen to see things happening but I have to say it's a lot easier to say no than to say yes people that the actual level of understanding skill of training that you need to have to actually say yes to something and to negotiate to a point where something can be a yes is far more challenging than it is just to say that wouldn't work and I think we have to say I see us heading slightly towards a difficult situation where we are both encouraging an attitude change and control change while reducing skill the number of skill people who may have that ability to make that call and I feel that opens to my mind the biggest challenges that faces us as a profession thank you 5 different but also in some sense is complementary the sense is made in tension with one another on some of those points I'm going to open it straight away for all four comments questions challenges I've been asked to a lot when we pulled the microphone can you make sure that you're positioning like that and have in mind the way in which you're meant to speak into it so much better to put it down there but we'll open it to the floor and then maybe try and talk together also some of the points that can't be touched on in what speakers have said that are all so different from those in your thoughts so if we can open it up to the floor now for comments Christmas night in Victorian society I shared not to be to regret there are more people from the development community here I have to say I was slightly disappointed that you can find your marks to the narrow area of post-war and I just wanted to keep it out and briefly your thoughts either from your perspective on how you think the broad heritage system should be developing over the next 50 years I think that the reason I focused on some of the more recent examples is that they're being parameterised as some of the shortcomings of the way generally you properly think about historic assets and that some of those remarks I made in the middle of my comments about how you monitor looking around in terms of its commodity or use could equally apply to Victorian buildings and I think the other reason I focused on post-war things is that there are still items that cause some if not controversy then at least questions in the minds of the public and I think added Victorian as something probably most of the value of the Victorian things that wasn't the one yet but we understand the limits of it and these questions are most dramatic or are most clearly in particular how we think in this world or at the boundaries of being tested and then that's why I thought it was something Roger Barnett from English Heritage Thanks Christopher for a masterclass in how to dis most of all in this thing It's brilliant, it's so useful for me because you don't get asked those things all the time and have an eloquence what else can I call you eloquence swaysy, high paid very successful, recognised and so on but it's really useful for us because you're also going to champion the cause and is that not one yet for so much why Roger Barnett actually is and that's a source of access to action but there's always going to be a controversial bit and generally it is the modern stuff we bought in this country 694 of the superstar buildings which is a tally far in our time in the world and the designativeness for landscapes too so that's what a tally wasn't even proud of we had a symposium at the Pagetti Company a few years ago and there was a huge international respect for that Facebook said it's a pressure management change spot on you're engaged at the Commonwealth Institute well well-rewarded work, excellent that's going to a enormous change it's going to be listed deal with it doesn't matter, of course it does so I think I go out of this country which I've gained a lot very, very good there have been pretty clear issues but above all knowing where you stand from what are the constraints on private owners articulating on these things are also preferably important to our future it's been very energizing for me thanks number 1, 2, 3 that seems a little personal I mean I'm talking about the Commonwealth Institute but what I'm going to say is about the about the process and how she actually brought it was enormous change over what happened with it through the offices of David McDonald who was so supportive I mean that was the building that was on the last leg because that was the last chance saloon for the left and what it feels like to me though is that the level of intervention we got though through consent was only possible because of really strong political wealth at the level of the Institute of Chelsea because that building was really dragging down on that part of Kensington High Street and there's enormous support politically to that I think without the building's potential to regenerate what was perceived to be a unbefoamied part of her we probably wouldn't that doesn't mean to say we haven't been able effectively to remake that building in that single it's merely to say that there were other considerations that were in play though which were very powerful it's been entered from the Institute for Archaeologists again so it was very interesting to hear from you about the Welsh Government Programme and I think we're already enjoying preparing our responses to the group's great white paper which will ultimately result in a heritage bill and interesting too to reading that the review of the options for delivering historic environment advice to local authorities currently done through the local authorities for conservation advice and through the four world trust funded by Canada largely for our political services quite brave and radical stuff being looked at what the outcome is we will see in due course in Scotland we have just finished responding to the joint consultation both on the manager but on the draft Scottish Historic Environment Strategy a Scottish Government consultation on a strategy that is Scotland's and not Scottish Government's and common to both of those exercises we have had ministers who passionately believe in the value of the contribution of heritage and also believe that and quite willing to state publicly that heritage must do more than simply drive the economic agenda even in Northern Ireland the minister there has a vision for the future of heritage which involved massive job creation and development of the tourism industry so for this largely English audience I wonder if the question is why in England we are currently dealing with things like consultations on extensions to permitted development rights, the red tape challenge and the Government vision for the historic environment that has been withdrawn from the department's website and hidden away is it not now time for an English vision for the historic environment? It is tremendous the dynamics really, the dynamism that is possible admittedly whilst it is a small place we have always had to work quite publicly together because there is not very many others so collaboration has always been the name of the game and now more so than ever as projects are reducing we recognise that the only way forward is to collaborate with options like if anyone has seen it on our website and they say that handwells and solicitation project probably not achievable in somewhere like England because there is a sheer number of people involved but it has enabled us to take themes, the real resonance in Wales and in Welsh nation but particularly to do with the industrial period in the 19th century but also bringing out the story that people are maybe less familiar with and we will give you an example when we were talking earlier Wales is the first ever world heritage site the castles and edges and it is widely being recognised as an English site in the middle of Wales not something that necessarily presents the story of Wales In the last few years with Welsh Government funding we have carried out a project which has really conserved and brought to light the sites which are the other side of that story which is the basis of Wales the first place building these things I wondered to myself if a world heritage site was being created now would it be the same on the heritage site because frankly one side of the story is not telling you what was going on in that period the castle of Cymwy looks out and across at the castle of Degamwy which is far more spectacularly cited and has been conserved and is accessible of people who go up there and see the sites of the story and the opportunity to try to broaden that narrative to broaden the story and allow people to see that there's two sides to it is such an exciting opportunity that we don't only be possible with collaboration but we don't own Degamwy it's in private house so it means that you have to take that story out of our own sites and into the collection and into the announcement No, sorry Thank you very much Thank you very much I say that on my education sector that I HPC and as Chris has mentioned that was for a while leading the conservation and design team at Kensington and Chelsea I'm not going to dwell on that to begin with but first of all just to thank all the speakers this afternoon for their range of views and I was quite surprised actually early on that I found myself actually agreeing with what Chris was saying not so much about this criteria for a listing about some of his other remarks and I think it was very good that he did mention the elephant not in the room which is the development developers, building owners investment managers those people have a real key effect on our environment and I think that probably has been about to make the remark something that's been lacking in the conference up to now the other speakers I did appreciate because a lot was about their appreciation and getting other people to appreciate their decision particularly young people and I think that's really great and I fully support it and I think it's one of the things on the postcard that I filled in earlier but these things are going to take a long time to filter their way through I think that's the problem that we are facing with at the moment and I think it was Kate from ARPs and of course she would say I would agree with this that the loss of conservation officers and the difficulty that that's avoided there was really something that's happening for me one point she did mention was that easy to say no and that will bring me back to the Commonwealth Institute because in some ways it's been dead easy to say no and at Kensington and as well as English Heritage we agonized the one in Harvard there was no easy decision making to be made there and we'll see what happens in the way workers on site at the moment but what that's leading me to is that actually there is something going on here as well as loss of conservation officers which is causing the real problem there is the skill level of those conservation officers and the postage entity not to be sure to say I'd like to think old and wise that myself better be old but they're younger and maybe less experienced and actually there's a role in education generally for those professionals and others throughout the building of professions to actually get them better and also not just in terms of getting their CPD up but actually to mentor and give people more confidence in what goes on in the future and I think that's one thing that we should be interested in If you go back Kate Pugh from the Heritage Alliance we've talked a lot here about getting more public opinion behind us about making our lives with the development industry and so on I support that in all this work and we should get artists to speak up for us as well as the ambassadors of ourselves but I feel like this is a very long term and yet we're hearing my comparison that there are really sighted movements of folk to the Wales and Scotland and rather ignoring what's coming up on our doorstep which is the consultation on the initiative is the model which will happen over this autumn and I do feel that this is a really good opportunity to actually do what we want to do in the long term to do it in the short term and I wonder if the panel has any idea as to how we can use this consultation to advance it I think to be right that actually is a time for change and for those of us who I draw in the Heritage in 1984 about 30 years this year and there's no doubt English Heritage is going to change but is this not the opportunity that we can change the whole world completely of how we both understand and disseminate and educate and do everything now that's a big challenge in the short term what it is presumably relatively short consultation period but mainly now at the time to be moving around because if we don't do it now we will do what happens in all societies we'll have to go and visit it in five years time and we'll obviously be in five years time today well we should have done it then so let's do it now so I would doubt that it would do much better I'm curious consultation to address it but one of the tensions I see in the system that could be addressed to a realisation is the tension between a sort of workshop service which is your library advice and then overlaps to a service that's actually local and more politically accountable and I don't think the system has ever really fully resolved that tension which is effectively one of the 20th decision that's taken democratically to the local level on the basis of the document and the national level in relation to different criteria and I'm not sure that any realisation as I could understand this would address that issue and that would be aside for a moment of the whole issue of whether that was an interaction in the regional level the legal planning is to abolish and it's not likely to come back after any government involving the conservative because it won't do it and it will get flooded but just even if we share the resources we'll have plenty of issues so that to me is one of the most important tensions in the regulatory system In the review for reasons that I hope will go on is some sort of twidling from UCL into the most important archaeology society and we've had thoughts yesterday and today about the future of parental protection in terms of regulation and some potentials and consequences of what's happening and we've had thoughts about protection in terms of engaging people in caring for moments caring for their heritage and increasing the care about their engagement but there's a third model which is probably particular to maritime service maritime has been mentioned in the course of these two days but not a lot the protection of the designated wrecks and the wrecks are designated through the statutory legal process but they're inspiring care, research and monitoring is done entirely by the third sector by Amazon or to call archaeologists and although the role of the third sector is referenced but yesterday we haven't heard much about it in terms of the future in terms of actually being active participants in the protection and I wonder how many thoughts along those lines that you should do more and when you were talking many of you think about a proposal that we heard about which was from the wildlife trust to actually use the seabed to educate people and in the end was a project that we rejected but we understood what they were trying to get to and in a sense how do we actually engage the communities to be a political force as well as just a volunteer force and if they have some responsibility the adopted monument team in Scotland is one absolutely why not but it requires and I think Alex mentioned it that actually engaging volunteers to do something really useful takes a lot of time and it needs to work the investment however it's funded it's definitely worth the investment if you can achieve what you've set out to achieve so don't be afraid to try and do it I think I think I'll endorse that and maybe take it a bit further Mark we talked earlier about the effective stewardship of heritage assets and the kind of squeeze on particular local authorities not in any way to do maybe what they should do with their stewardship resources I think there's a real opportunity to harness the further sector and volunteers to do that I think in some respects there's an impediment there's certainly in some local authorities a view that although I mean squeeze they should hang on to their speakers I don't know there's some totally legislation in place for assets community value to be offered tentatively to community that they're possibly drawing that maybe those kind of things need more teeth to actually help communities in the third sector to take charge of assets that the public sector can't look after as long as we need to can we just add one thing which is and it was it was a word that that was about education but it's come up again today and I was about to think of what Matthew was talking about which is that it's education at all levels because actually if somebody doesn't know what's on the edge of the privilege how are they going to know that they're able to get engaged with it and model it and actually that's that whole business so if we don't know it's there we will lose it which is why the kind of projects I was talking about and the people that ride across the whole country we need more of that because it's about access to information and I think that at the moment that information is wisely that I can sit anywhere in the world and go out to Canada and find out whether it's going to Scotland but I can't for the English-English website never have anything to do with it Was it Sir Ronald Reagan who said it's a cool job tear down this wall and I don't know why he was consulting in the heritage professionals when he asked me but that's the sort of thing I might say to the President of the Antifarian Society today or maybe not on these walls between the heritage centre and all of these other centres that we're talking about just because the demographic that goes to the heritage site is older that doesn't necessarily be a problem even when we're talking about engaging young people that kind of intergenerational engagement is very important similarly well we've been talking about the nursing of the third age of various other groups like that but I would say one of the most important ways in which the heritage centre can grow and achieve its end is to cooperate more with universities than I represent that kind of goes back to the point you were making David McDonnell defend about education and about the way that there are going to be cuts in education in the heritage agencies themselves well there are people in universities who are crying out not to you know I don't want to offend the union and say that we're going to come and take your job but to collaborate you wouldn't kind of work what you're doing so it's about making the boundaries a little bit more broad and to my mind they are a moment I was just going to say actually it's unfortunate that I noticed that Ollie from Cardiff University just sort of made it just before he started because he's actually been doing a fantastic project with the community in Cardiff which has been exactly that which is adopting their local help for to be investigating this it's just a shame it's not here now to tell us about it great thank you thank you wanting this heritage now in university it's all me I'm not going to say that I'm not good involved on just a panel and our people the last few places it happens but I want it to possibly be a little peaceful I start by saying it's not a peaceful presentation but a presentation in the last few days and someone this morning was moving in a sack of address in terms of sharing information and community involvement with the university most of them saying that the people in this room have sent a very narrow spectrum certainly to society and possibly to the heritage sector and certainly to the view with them of the building sites and so on and yet how important and how that comes out is that we all know it anyway doesn't need pointing out we still know that continuing poor household being brought back to fairly small focus points like these are honestly much much bigger and we are advocating just on the poor issue on that today anyway I want to try to talk about how these engage people and what is society and how you do it and I want to try that in to talk about what we just said about nation consolation and our perception that they want an easier market to be up for a story that we want extinction by the university could be happening I think we do I think closer to the average citizen than even the most curvy animal is the street they're living and a curvy street devoid of any disability devoid of any possible noblist door devoid of anything known possibly but it's still going to be at least a week old and probably 10 years old in this conflict 100 years old underneath that several thousand years old all that so when we say that how they engage people we tend to use what they educate teach pass that information we take it on our sharing information but it turns out that we're more of a captured system but they engage in driving of our structures why don't we go on people instead decide how to talk to them we don't listen we talk to people and we don't listen we should listen and not talk we should send a project which papers to communities family community devoid of any recognise heritage and simply ask people what they see really what kind of street what they see on the cross-bible how old they think it is how we think it is and so on or what's beneath it but start with their heritage long the time you're talking about our heritage to give you all the energy we've worked on in the last two days has been heritage that is defined by having become one thing it's always somewhere else it's always somewhere in the transition but it's always somewhere in the country or in the continent or it's something else in the land or it's always somewhere else never where the person is so on this and this one I think we all look more closely at the the meanings between the fact that our convention we should look at heritage from the other end of the telescope not from our top-down expert academic and what you want to use to get that idea with us we should design a whole test route down and look at bodies from other localities that can't check what people have around them what they're living or what they walk past and from that we'll look and support and if we do that the people will look at it one way they might be able to support what we want them to support as well it doesn't work for them but I hope you'll try to do it if it doesn't work Can I just make a quick poll for the People's Collection website I don't know if you're familiar with this it's a website that's established by Welsh Government Wales Cymru and World Commission actually which is exactly such a resource for it it is a website that provides communities with an opportunity to post on the stories that they think are important to them and to draw together the information they have for photography and maths and swathes and things and if you haven't been on it it's well worth it not because it does provide just such an opportunity for communities to celebrate their own passions Did it create an engagement did it create dialogue? It does because there's actually a process for holding which is facilitators from in this case particularly World Commission will visit a community and help them to stop that process off at the same time taking with them the national one of the record so that as information comes out of that it can be incorporated into if you like the formal language as well so it is actually a model that does allow for that engagement I think very much get to some of the content very much Just one quote again I can't remember how many years that project happened so basically I remember one in Hildon Hyre where basically the applicants said exactly what we're going to set up which is we want to understand our load on the street it was funded and actually when you looked at it you thought you could do this for the whole of the country and it would be fantastic a label one label two your last bit of content I'm just off an observation I agree entirely with what Graham has said I used to work through this at the centre of an industry a frustrated person it was a very good oral history project there and they could receive very large crowds to proceed into the project and it was all about capturing the stories of people who used to work in industry and making that available and I think we might even be guilty here those of us in the historical background about thinking about the wider historical spectrum there is a discipline or it is not mobilising people it isn't used to capture reflections and there's no reason why the recording of that could be achieved in many ways including for example to the development process it's absolutely no reason at all I'm not going to talk about it in Oxford in that moment so I don't share a lot of the things that are in play which needs engagement with us the trouble is our problem Next question Actually I was going to talk about how you were doing I think we are just picking up on what Graham said In the user world we just run the environment sector just run what people care about and what the sharing politicians is actually the public at large don't care much about the environment as far as we are concerned we are not interested in the climate change but what they do care about is their local network so what you will see particularly in Australia is a whole new interest from politicians in that local network story platform for thinking about the kind of things we are talking about but what I want to do is to be a plea to go back to the general but also thinking about the value of what we are doing and it's easy to be cynical about the value of the environment to say well you know we did some economic impact assessment and we went to the Treasury and they started with the farmers and we've all been there because you wouldn't be like but the Treasury changes the rules but that doesn't actually stop the whole discussion about the different ways in which looking after heritage and doing it creates value because it's in that discussion that value that you can relate those connections to those other agendas to the economic agendas to the university agendas to the education to the social agenda and for me who are not yesterday at the conference I think it was Pete Stone was becoming a force multiplier I thought when you say you struggle for six years to get the military to understand what you're talking about until they suddenly realize that actually doing heritage is going to make their job a whole lot easier and I think the question for us is how do we become a force multiplier how do we make that connection to other things that people want to do whether it's around capitalism whether it's around gender through heritage to do that we've got to start while we imagine how we create value and I think it has an interesting point for that I think Chris has sort of reset it in a way that actually showed how you know picked up things that created long-term value was I thought genius but really exciting because it was really interesting and challenging and so I think that's just the thing that I'd leave with the group is if we're going to be thinking about future if we're thinking about future if we're thinking about future if we're thinking about future will way into that is how many different ways we can create value in a really fluctuation way I think one Malkinais university think one of the things that these two data shows is this sector of 19 is very articulate, questions tend to these speeches, two points. One is how do you engage with your local region politically? I made a point yesterday I'll do it again today. The labour development plan process is one way, it's easier in rural areas than in urban areas but it is one way of engaging a community to see the value of the historic environment. The other is additionality. Those of you who are old enough to have heard John Major launch the HLF when he gave the commitment that it would not mean additionality, it's happening in a different way and the taking of funding away from local authorities, Chris Mead has just said, what we need is more equal democracy in the single taking. You need the extra t's there and that extra t's needs to be funded. You mentioned the labour plan which was a very top topic about a year ago or thereabouts, but it certainly hasn't worked in urban situations. In fact, today we need a lot. I think there's only one where that comes forward and it is in rural Europe starting by a year and a half ago. I'm not aware of any others coming forward. In a rural level, so it's doing something. Question many has said that there's a number of pilots born that are in question many is the sort of topics that emerge in community plans. Certainly a rural location where I've seen in the draft are regrettably for us perhaps in this room are not sort of issues necessarily where we're talking about. There are more about limiting the way to develop more at certain parameters than controlling what you're landing on in rubbish. I mean, I am a favourite local decision. I think I am, as a feminine member principle. But if we ask the right question, because sometimes issues that come up are really quite one day and will be very important locally. As you know, it is a long-distance planning system trying to mobilize community success of governments. It's a real challenge. Can I just respond on the additionality bit? One of the things that we say here, three things. One was about flexibility. The other was about judgment. judgment of our officers to be able to actually have confidence not to go to the rulebook but to say may not remember what we did and the other one was out to make things simpler. I'd use the word simple rather than easy. If it was easy, we'd just have a bank, a whole lot of places, and we'd go on with the credit card and we'd get lottery money out. But a simpler application process. We're already evaluating this. I think Judy's gone, she was here this morning. We're already beginning to say, given what happened, even since this was launched, which was July last year, what can we do differently? The point you just made about expertise at local authority levels, it's the point about revenue funding. There's actually a lot that could be done as long as it comes through as projects, because by law, through that national whatever, it's called Heritage Lottery Act or whatever, it says we can only give grants to projects. Some of our projects can last five years. Now, surely, it's not beyond the weight of local authority people to come up with projects that could be a benefit to all people doing one of the things we've said, doing, but it will mean they've got to change. They can't just do what they currently do. So there is a massive opportunity. Having said all that, competition for our funding has never been greater. And actually, down right in front of this government, they increased the percentage share from 16.6% to 20%. So now we're under budget. When I joined the HRF, it was due in the blue. It was 2007. Oh, we've only got 180 million. Well, I had just come from a new charity. 180 million is fantastic. It's an archaeologist. Now it's 400 million. But still, the average, we're rejecting 60%. Now, most funders would say that's a fantastic rejection rate. They're rejecting 90%. So actually, we're in a reasonably good place, but we're in the same people of change, and we've got to be grateful about how we do the future. Thank you. I'm very close to the time that we've got. Three people queued up the question on the answer here as well. So just give those to me and everyone more. I want to think about you. Sorry, Richard. I want to think about the UK a bit more, following up some comments from the Caves and Apple, so around this morning, and also some comments that were made about design sort of thinking about what sort of heritage we actually want. And following up, what he's just been speaking about are our products. Now, products tend to be very localized in some sort of place. And I suppose, my reflection on what's going on in Wales is an attitude that's far from a position that I'm interested to observe these words in Scotland for the kind of long period of life. Scotland seems to be going through a similar process of looking at its heritage quite gently focusing attention on it in a creative way. Now, Ayrgynton mentioned doing something similar in my initial reaction to that is so almost horror because I do worry about nationality. Now, there's a bit more of that and we thought actually in some way, except might not be a bad thing to work on because some of the sort of problematic issues I've tried to raise yesterday start to think about things we have to deal with and I do think perhaps in Wales and in Scotland, you know, people with lots of knowledge of the politicians are trying to do that. So perhaps thinking about the sort of war or gender if we're going to be daring and trying to really create a sort of context or a relevance of what we do, we should think about what these things and the suggestions are more about or are we going to be foolish, I don't know. Can I just go on and then not refer to storage it? And if you think of identity and the challenges facing colleagues in Northern Ireland over identity, they've got that community relation council and they've got it. Especially now, in the decade, what they call the decade of anniversaries because they're the decade of anniversaries, really 1914 to 1924 which Northern Ireland's created in 1924. Imagine that in terms of funding that might come to us for example or anywhere else. There's 50 funds now and they raise the question of identity in England and as you say, don't go there. When did England and Scotland last play football game in Dublin? And you know, this was a long ago. How long was it before that? How close was it to us? There was a previous government that said what we would like you to fund is a museum of British identity and everybody shrank and bit him out. But there was a working group and I was speaking to them all around. It was really difficult to compare it but maybe now is the time. And how did you find the English? Did you find the English by Manoloch or not Scottish English? Or French? German? Under the mindful of Malcolm's German review in the C2, very, very good thing. I think it's very important to note what Chris said that there's been a broad group on that point for many years and there's an enormous number of very, very good exemplary projects out there which have done this and have done it for the last 20 years. So I think it's important to build on that and actually look at the good experience to build on it. But the other part of the house has a straightforward question to Bob. Bob, you were asked if you should use the Archive Consultation on the volunteer service to prevent the sector's and you said be radical. Could I just ask you to expand on that in a personal capacity if you feel to do the professional capacity because be radical is nice that there are many sorts of radicals. I'd be very impressed to know what your views are. Thank you, Chris. I was thinking that somebody would like to know what you mean by radical. I've had a few minutes to think about it and I think it's another great question which is absolutely to say that I don't think we should necessarily start from where we are which is difficult because of course we have to start from where we are but if you then say well what's best for the heritage and not what's best for the staff of English Heritage or whatever or for your jobs or whatever else then they step back and say what is the best for the heritage in 50 years time. If you take the picture of whoever it was and put a picture of something that was very young after that, it's then a future heritage. One of the things we're thinking about in nature life is the next year of having a big heritage debate and it's kind of our chair's swanson because it would be the last meeting and it would be sometime in July and one of the questions that we will go around the country and in why not somebody said but I'm interested in what the heritage will look like in 40 years time and I've held on to that there's actually been something for that conference that what would be how could we believe it in a better place that it is now and actually that's the radical bit it may be that that bit of heritage is completely different from anybody that anybody could think of and that's why I say the radical because I've been through at least as Adrian knows two reviews mergers, I've left in this heritage more times than I've looked back in but it's getting close when Jeremy Hunt says you're going to merge with H11 and the heritage and I said I'll have to do it because I couldn't be merged back in it would be too embarrassing So I was wanting to just pick on the point Graham made but the conversation that the question lasts that go back to there were lots and lots and lots of these community projects which originated what people want in their communities and the 500 of the HLF for our stories project went this year alone and I hate to think that they're going to keep promoting the HLF that's a very last stop in your ongoing project to do exactly that and that is simply going to communities and sale what you knew interested in come and do it and what we found is that people then get drawn into other projects and other communities other grids get drawn into that so that is not that to be invented that already exists and there's a long tradition of community archaeology from that as well I was also hesitant to mention this and the idea of a museum of England or Britain the interesting thing is I always find when I go to somewhere U of S you want to go to the National Museum and find out about stuff that came from that country Museum of London is a fantastic example of somewhere we can find out about stuff that came from London it's always a shame perhaps there isn't a museum just about stuff that's come from the British Army, the United Kingdom, England and whatever person, if that's the person who's been in I'm looking at lots and lots of these projects what we're trying to do is in these last two days I find it interesting that people don't know that they exist in this room, in their sector and if they do not exist, they don't think it would be intelligent they think it would be something else what I'm trying to say is that the quality of those things is as much quality as all the people that are put together and I'm not thinking that they shouldn't think that that's the best I've tried to cross we need to change we need to change you've been patiently waiting for about 10 minutes it's not quite a much question we've just responded, we've kind of connected with a few things that have been said, there are actually those on the grey area this morning the CLG are now, so there are 346 new areas now in the place we're quite right, there's only three founds but that's because there will be a time-back to think about the shortest one to 10 months to drive them to adopt and go through this public inquiry but I think the connection is that once that's in place I think last week the government announced that those who are popularated out of prudent labour of the area forum will now have a short cut between being parish councils so we are the first parish councils in 60 years in London I think there's getting more and recently more is there are then going to have the advantage of having six, one or six in Ceylon after we are directed to them to spend and I think that a lot of their belief in their area of how do they define heritage could well be there whether they want to spend their money, so maybe a time short of resources that maybe a connection to them is on the future present and that's my question here We've been starting round the West Lothian question in the past and one of the reasons surely why the heritage has a low probability profile is something that our government is responsible for being UK issues and management and yet at another level it's been in the local issues within England and those local issues inevitably play a second fiddle to the big issues and I think that's part of the difference between Scotland where there's no one out of them and even the Northern Treaty we also shy away from a national identity in a way that's not in Wales I keep adding that out of it so it's not it's not I think there's a tendency to find out the positive and one of the problems in England is that I think we end up with the absence of a positive image of who we are gives the city some negative images of who we are if you're a real problem so I think there are structural problems perhaps with that or may I read what this is in the way heritage sits in the general governance of England where you came I know I'm right it's a great reason to say that historically of course heritage emerged in the context of national identity so I think that we are in this narrative which is in the same future it's probably quite my thought it's probably the same approach that was assumed John, to help me with this heritage I just want to come back to a point made by Matthew about the potential for collaboration between colleges and universities working on heritage-related subjects and there is less working and of course I think we all agree that's a really important thing I think one of the things that stands out to me about this conference is the fact that we've been able to have that over the last few days and it clearly has the potential for finding out a lot more about increasing knowledge of different types of heritage assets as well as exploring the kinds of methods for engaging the public in a digital media sorts of things that we've been talking about but also I think for reaching a sort of consensus about the kind of training that we offer through the universities so that we can be assured that we can be that the training on offer really doesn't meet the requirements of the sector as a whole and I think there's great potential for further discussion on all of those things and I think my question is really how do we continue that collaboration and how do we find out more about what our respective research priorities are within the universities and in the heritage sector as a whole how do we achieve some sort of alignment between those so that we maximise the resources that we have in terms of that? That is maybe a joy for the air, shall I say? I agree with you that I'm worried about is that I can't speak for the heritage studies department because I don't comment on one the only thing I'm worried about is that it's very close and obviously it's vocational link. There are plenty of other departments within universities which would be dying to help and I'm just talking about history but literature, our history, sociology, geography all sorts of areas which would be very, very interesting. It is a question of getting these groups together as you say and the Art and Humanities Research Council would be a very important group on that. Because beyond just it's a nice thing to do certainly from the university perspective to ref, retail, sort of Australian work almost to help universities to work with real world organisations like that so we do buy off from our perspective in terms of the resource side we now have lots of very bright willing students from the kinds of families we're working with so I don't know whether we're unusual but I think the future is going to be a lot more third sector heritage and the university academia and gender collaboration. The government's side project is just three things. I'm probably not American but I thought when you sat down there yesterday and said all the history is all the history heritage is heritage kick all the history in the touch. There's a little place you can come around to and just say talk about that later on. But the other thing is that it just sort of brings back to the even with developers and no there aren't any developers yet but there's an enormous part of the heritage sector and heritage professionals that are somewhere in here from that sector that will actually spend what's their careers working with developers and part of our job has been to explain heritage to them and by and large you get a few but by and large they're very intelligent before they're not stupid when you rejoin and you know and actually so the heritage sector is engaging with the development sector and with the buildings we're doing it and just as an aside actually one of the things that sometimes that doesn't do the heritage sector a great a lot of favours is when the developers actually come to meet the regulatory side and sometimes there's quite a quite a lot of walls are set up and positions are taken and that's not particularly helpful speaking from experience and thirdly education is vitally important and engaging people of all ages but particularly young and actually we have a bit of a big in the society at the moment and how the society believe it or not can actually still think about engaging younger people some of the views from fellas are quite extreme and they are the first thing I've signalled him and he should hear some of the views but there are, fortunately a lot of the fellas do recognise that we are a charity for public benefit and one of the things that we have to do is actually engage the fellas of the future and unless we do that this society, our heritage and everything is done I'm not the half of it I'm just one of the things that we haven't really touched on in the course of the discussion on the way of the time is how this debate how the discussions here are fed into the material that you brought through your host cards I mean the loss of that was focused around especially communication and I speak this year on some of the discussion you've had I think the key notes that would also be worth pursuing from that and the ongoing discussions that will need to take place perhaps in a month or two next year's conference on heritage debates are around this question which comes up time and time again in the host cards around how heritage should it contribute does it need to contribute to the concept of economic growth and how we feed value into a much broader question that would be a discussion that would go on for well past the time we still have available tools but one question I was going to end on with the panel at times but I think it would be well worth considering as we go from these events is what in say 50 what in 100 years time would we want this heritage context to look like it's been touched on a little bit by some of the speakers here but it's very much given that not only to the community which is both the celebration and the commemoration but also a reflection on what has worked what has been achieved perhaps those areas that would need to be focused on in a different way in the future what would be those things in 50 or 90 years time that a panel like this or maybe not a panel like this would need to be addressing about the future of heritage protection but also heritage in a much broader conceptualisation what do we want heritage to achieve how do we want to use heritage and what does heritage actually mean those are much bigger questions which we don't have the time to go into at this particular point but I'd like to thank the panel and thank you as an audience as well for your contributions to this session