 Hi, I'm Robin again executive director of the open js foundation and you know I get a lot of questions about the foundation and most of the questions are about how awesome our projects are and How to get involved but actually another big question? I always get up all the time is What is JavaScript mad about today now? You know spoiler alert We have what we call positive controversy at open js where people are surprised generally by how mostly positive and productive we are but so I thought we would just sort of Sit here with you all today and share a little bit more about how we make it work building culture and community So I'd love to start off with some introductions and your role at the foundation Todd more I chaired the board of the open js foundation I was part of forming the node js foundation as well as a JavaScript foundation and then the merge of Open js coming together. So I've been with it since before it was anything and Enjoy working with everybody in JavaScript. It's been a lot of fun Hi there, I am Lee Spurdy. I am from Columbia and my role in the foundation is I I'm a community leader back in Latin America And I get involved in different events and decisions in the open js world I used to work for note source as a head of developer relations, but I just switched jobs like one week ago Infuse bit and head of developer advocate there and yes, I'm just basically very involved in communities, especially in Latin America I'm Sarah Chips. I'm an engineering manager at LinkedIn and also On the board of open js as our one of our cross-project council representatives Great. Thanks everyone. So I'm just starting off just for some context about open js. So Sarah You represent the projects on our cross-project council. So just give us an idea on who is open js what projects Make up open js. Yeah, so on open js. We have a bunch of projects. I'm very large. So I'm very small Some of the ones that you may have heard of our node js amp J query dojo There's quite a bit. There's quite a few projects in different stages that are part of the open js foundation Great and Liz that when you were at node source for all those years. I mean node source is a member So tell me why would somebody want to be a member of the open js foundation and sort of how How is that different from what you're doing with the community? Well, basically Communities and companies get involved in communities because they want to get back and also because he's part of the business For example, no js if you know js would exceeds note source wouldn't exist So it makes sense for note source to be part of the node js community But it goes both ways like community benefits from note source because For example note source made the certification program for no js where 600 people have already Certificated in no js And also note source benefits from the community because it gives them peace ability and Yeah, like a platform to get involved. So it goes both ways Great. So Todd you talked a little bit about the node js foundation and the js foundation coming together, so there was a merger a few years ago, so You and I sort of both go back away. So tell us why don't you take us back a little bit to the node foundation and you know, I heard there were some bumps along the way Yeah, somebody said that I you know, yeah, so, you know communities One thing we've seen throughout the years and it's across many different projects is Communities get to a point where they look at the steward and they say gee we'd really like more say and what's going on gee, we'd really like to see things more transparent in the roadmap and what have you and So it got to that way in in note to the point of getting to a fork as well too with the project and in a lot of ill will happening between the members of the community and You know At that time joint was was really the steward over the project and to their credit They they worked very hard to come together with the community to heal the fork to create the foundation And then to get people moving down a positive path, right? But that was that was full of bumps, like you know, you have to admit it You know it took a while to get trust to be built right because once you lose that trust With the folks you're working with getting it back is ten times harder, right? So it took a while but but we were able to attract in other folks who really wanted to do good work IBM stepped up Who I work for and and put a lot of people helping to get involved and get engaged and you'll see that with Joe Sepi and and people like Michael Dawson and others who were there and Etc James Snell who was part of IBM at that time? and And it helped to smooth that over because we got to a level of stability We figured something out we figured out that you could have long-term stable releases and Leading-edge things going on at the same time and that you could then bring that into the stable release cycle But everybody was kind of looking for it at business level And that's why people get attracted to the project at a corporate level because now they can depend on it Right and so this became the dependable thing that everybody could go and be part of and once the community saw that I think they felt a lot better about it so we got through that growing pain kind of phase and You know we looked around and said gee there's all these other JavaScript projects going on We really need to sort of get our act together and and be one and and so that sort of led to the JavaScript foundation that that came together and then You know the node community wasn't really ready to embrace that so we had the separate foundation going on But over time again trust built up and once the trust was there It became possible to then bring the communities together and have one Organization that supports everything JavaScript you know becomes the center of gravity that people could depend on it's that neutral home That puts out stable good stuff that supported with great folks like yourselves who go out there and and make sure of that You know people know about what we're doing that the community supported the diversity activities happen The things that we need to do to be a good community and operate in you know a very open and fair way So let's talk how a little bit more concretely. How do you build trust? I know Liz and Sarah you've been involved in developer communities. No JS. You've done dot-net many others Can you just share some of your experiences and how you've built trust within developer communities? Yeah, sure. So trust is built in time So basically once you create the first event and people get to know you and your work and the type of speakers they're going The dynamics of the event Once you have the first one the second on the third one and the following events becomes easier So yeah, and once as you said like once trust is lost I think you probably get lost forever because for example there is this event that happened a couple of years ago And like not Atlanta a lot of his great speakers were invited and they were expecting a hundred people a lot of money Like was moving around and at the end two weeks before the event it got cancelled everything So people I'm sure people will never trust this event again or the organizers or because this it was like a big thing So yes trust is built in time and after you successfully have done a few events That makes sense. I think I think I think that's right. I think it does really take time to build trust I think in one thing that I've observed is Constant communication and transparency is really helpful. I think once When you're in front of a keyboard when you have a keyboard in front of you and in between you and another person It's really easy to forget forget that that person's a human being so you can Especially in large communities It can be really easy to use hyperbole or to get really angry at someone that isn't Performing in a way that you want them to or isn't delivering something that you really need and I think making sure to Hear people to communicate that you've heard them And additionally to be a little bit vulnerable as helpful too. I think sometimes reminding folks that Where you are, you know or you know why something can't be delivered or why something is late When you are falling short because sometimes that happens, you know Communicating early and often I think is really helpful because when people know you and your project and the humans behind your project It's a little easier to have empathy so I I also ping Joe seppy because I was going to be talking and the one thing he was said We should stress this transparency really is is the key and you know as we were going through the early difficult period We made sure that transparency was just going on and everything that we possibly could and tried to Foster that wherever possible if people know that they're involved and engaged and they're they're seeing the decisions And they're working out publicly on it Helped so much to bring that trust together And I will also say that trust is built if you feel safe and welcoming So if you are in environment where you feel that you can participate and be safe that that also helps with the trust Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, that is huge Yeah, I know on transparency at open JS we live stream many of our meetings live on YouTube and you can watch them and I Was at a javascript meetup last weekend and they were saying sometimes just turning on your camera. So It just helps make that connection so We talked about sort of the the human factor. There's a little process to build buildings Communication and open source communities called open governance. Can you all explain what that is and how we do it at open JS? You look at me So, you know when we we set up the Foundation in particular what we were looking to do was make sure that the governing board was Its own separate entity that really wasn't in charge of the technical aspects of any of the projects, right? That the governing board was there to be supportive to help them get charters in place and to help them with the Resources they need like the computing resources and other things in the marketing resources or the you know Funds just travel funds so that people could come to events like this, right and But to stay out of the workings of the projects and then of course the projects have their own Little, you know, I shouldn't say a little their own committees that run the projects And then we have the CPC which helps us with the sort of overall things that go across Across the teams and it took us a while to get to that structure and make it effective But it gives people a voice and the other thing Joe wanted me to mention was keep going back to Joe That anybody can participate in the CPC from the community, right? And they encourage it So, you know, it's a way of you being involved and helping to set the direction the tone and and support the organization So so that's kind of how we did it, you know, it was transparent The the technology is not in any corporate sponsors hands. It's not in the board's hands It's with the community members and that and that's what's really important Yeah, so basically like open governance is people that are inside the communities to govern to govern that community For me it makes total sense because these people that are already inside the community They know the pain the challenges their desires like the expectations of people can make better decisions For example, and it makes total sense that is people from inside the community. For example, if somebody Let's make like a real-world example if somebody from Seattle wants to be participated or involved in politics in Columbia That would make a lot of sense in unless this person has lived in the country for a long time And yeah, so I think it's the same with open governance like somebody from the inside the making decision from that community It makes a lot of sense Yeah, and I think it's to use the word again as transparency is the big part I think everything that the org does or 98% of the things that open JS does it does in public And I find or I found it was it's very accessible and easy to get involved So I think when we talk about open governance, that's what we're talking about right Yeah, and the CPC is the cross-project council So it is the kind of what other foundations may call the technical oversight committee We call the cross-project council that works on common issues So wow, that's a lot. So we're talking a very distributed way of governing open source projects, so You know if you're a company like NASA or Netflix or an organization and you're making a big bet on a technology like no JS Like how do you know that it's going to be there for the long term? How you know how can such this distributed way? How can a project prioritize like features and stability and security things like that and security and security Well, not NASA and Netflix were both no source customers and they were betting big in no JS So if this type of company support no JS in general they would make sure for example if there's a bug in no JS that could potentially risk people's lives and also People's views on Netflix. So we don't want that to happen. So it's good for these types of companies to support open source projects No JS like runs in the most of 514 companies So if something happens to no JS like pretty much the whole Internet will die 95% Exactly the world uses some JavaScript in their sites. Yeah, so it is good for companies to support open source Yeah, I think I hear a lot about this is why foundations like open JS is great. We're all here just to chill open But I think there's other foundations to you obviously and I think this is the benefit of having a lot of these I think the open source model over the last 20 years has really changed a lot I mean, I know a lot of us in this room will remember the days Where companies refused to use open source and then it was only tiny companies that would use open source and then and now Everyone's using open source, but I think the one thing that when I'm talking to folks of big companies that they factor in is Longevity and support and I think that's why foundations Help so much is because when you have You know contributors running a project without that support It's really easy to get burnt out. It's really easy to you know, people have very dimensional lives I think I was reading Twitter yesterday, and I saw someone say that They are looking for folks to support their open source projects Because they want to focus full-time on their construction company and that is fine, right? That's great We all we're all humans, but in that in cases like that Orgs are looking for what what is the fallback structure there? And do we have a foundation supporting them and people that will step in I think That's a lot of what folks at these large companies are looking for is what's the longevity plan and and You know what was our risk factor? And that's why you come to support organizations like we do and you know IBM sponsors a lot of organizations I've set many of the ones up that are both here and in the Linux foundation and other places as well And and it's because we're trying to establish That common defecto standard of code that everybody can depend on and then you can build your business in your ecosystem on it And feel comfortable in doing so that it's not in any one vendor's hand They can't pull the license out from underneath you and swap it out for something else and and done with license like the Apache 2 license You have a good commitment of both the copyright as well as the intellectual property for that individual contribution that you're making so So companies look at this and they say wow, you know This is this is something I can depend on and we've got all of these folks who have come together to go and put it together Cloud Native Computing Foundation was very much that same kind of approach, right? There were competing projects out there all vying to become the project, right? Kubernetes Mesa's Docker swarm and we came together behind Kubernetes because it looked like it had a very good chance and we could build consensus around bringing people to it and then because it was in an Open foundation and it was well sponsored and funded it Attracted others and you just watched it grow like a rocket ship to become now the thing When it comes to containerization and and the infrastructure that we all can depend on that, you know Cloud communities will be building products around for a very long time to come And and that's just you know, it brings in those people and it makes that standard It creates an opportunity for everybody and you know, it's not necessarily whether you're going to make money on it It could be that just because you enjoy the challenges and the problems like I was saying in my keynote earlier today is You know, there's good challenging problems out there that people just want to sink their teeth into and go work on So here's the tools go do it do it together. I Think what's cool to see I think some folks may think that open source is very big company driven big tech driven cloud vendor and Obviously not the case. I mean Liz. I mean your great example Netflix we have a new end user board position and some end user activities in the foundation So Netflix is on our board NASA came they sent an astronaut to speak at our conference last year. So that's all good Okay, so here's another sort of question or I don't know if it's controversy people say Gee Robin, some of your projects are kind of old You know, how how do you balance innovation like with the next hot new thing? So, how would you how would you all respond to that jQuery is old is that what person? I love jQuery Yes, there's no JS is old. Oh, no But yeah, you know, and but they're they're highly used and they're highly visible and we depend on them, right? And that's why it's so important and to have a home like this to have that support structure because yes There's some projects that are older, but then there's things like no dread Which is really cool and people use all over the world and that's not that old, right? Well, I would say that stability and innovation. They're not mutually exclusive You can have both at the same time If you don't innovate probably your your project will left behind I would die But if you're not stable, it can also become messy and disorganized and difficult for people to work So I think both of them are really important talking about jQuery I think people nowadays they don't start projects and say oh, let's use the jQuery You know, and I don't think that happened a lot of people use jQuery because a lot of projects were built in that particular technology so people have to learn and adapt it but in the future if old projects don't adapt They will be left behind and we are in a very fast-growing the speedy hunting tech war software and so if this company is the move fast they will probably die so Yeah, I think jQuery in the future is probably People will still use it because there's a lot of projects and migration could be very hard But but yeah, I think most of the projects right now it starts with newer technologies and Technologies need to adapt Great. Yeah, we always say we don't pick winners or losers We have projects in multiple categories as well So and people just have their favorite we call it their favorite flavor of JavaScript, right? So and they get supported through their life cycle and that's I think the important part, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah So What are the sort of tough questions do I get? So I see at this foundation. I mean, why don't you just put your project on GitHub and call it a day? Like why do you need this? I think I always point out the fact that I think and I think I'll be the first to say because I learned this the Hard way myself that developers and software engineers are terrible salespeople and That's not all I think the I think there's a lot of role it turns out that What our dream is is that you put a project on github and people are like this is excellent software And therefore I'm going to be a part of it This is wonderful But it turns out like that is not the biggest part of it being excellent software is great But also having good marketing and people being able to hear about your project having good governance All these different skill sets that aren't necessarily ones that come with building good software Are really important. So I think That's one thing I learned getting involved in open and JS and dot-net foundation other foundations is I found that I really love the bureaucratic a bureaucratic part of open source because those roles are really important and It allows the core contributors to focus on the things that they love doing the most which is writing code So I think the reason why that doesn't work is because there's so many other parts of owning a successful project That have nothing to do with what you're committing to a repository Yeah, I Think there are multiple platforms for different needs people communicate in different ways So github might be just not enough for for example creating a community There is a big community that works on Twitter on slack on events on conferences on like projects like the open JS foundation So there is like different platforms so people can't work efficiently in this But it makes a great place to start right and I think that's the important thing is you get something out there You start to get interest you see some stars growing you see some forks happening and and then it You know you cultivate those projects when they're really useful And you hope to support them and and see them grow into something that turns into a foundation on its own Even if it wanted to or join one of the great things that happen You know there's there's plenty of plenty of foundations to go around to put your things into as well, too You know there's not not just us. No, there's lots of great foundations. Absolutely. I'm yeah, so Another thing I sort of you know here is like so I'm I'm a company I'm making a decision on what technologies to choose like what should what factors should come into play when I'm choosing a an open-source project to use I'll start that one so you know License is one of the first ones we always go and look at honestly right because if it's not licensed in a way that We can generally make use of it It becomes very difficult to want to get behind it right but then community activity right is is there Really a robust community built behind it. Is there? Or can it be built behind it and and with lots of diverse players? You know from individual contributors to corporations all working in it You want to see a good healthy community that's that's vibrant and active and participating and then you like to see ones Who value diversity who go on even on their own and and put in a code of conduct and and start to think about How to behave and act together and and foster those things that's that's the very first places that that we start to look at it and You know, they've got to have good secure software practices as well, too. That's so important these days Yeah, I agree with that and also I would say the maintainers the contributors and I will check when was the last commit because if somebody made a last-commit like two years ago like Don't get into that project The community around it is very important Yeah, the activity in general Great, so so another question I get is you know open JS foundation as part of the Linux foundation as you know We are independent, but they are like our extended family. They provide all of our support So people sort of wonder like oh gosh, I have this project I'm just not quite sure if I want to hand hand it over to a foundation because then they will control it So can you that seems to be like a common question? Not not based in a lot of perhaps real-world Facts, so can you just kind of tear break that apart for us? I Would advise those folks probably to talk to Contributors or owners of projects that are part of the foundation. I think that does sound scary I think for as many times as I've seen All the peace love and JavaScript in the foundation. There's definitely been times where folks that own projects have disagreed with Disagreed with decisions or things that the foundation has wanted to do and that's something that they completely have the right to do and There's I've never seen an instance where the foundation has stepped in and said you know it actually too bad because you know We're we're here now The projects have all their yeah, that wouldn't go very well The the projects all have their own governance So I think what I've seen is just kind of like a supportive relationship But I would encourage people to talk to folks that are part of projects existing projects to hear their experience because obviously We're biased Okay, so it can't just all be rainbows and unicorns and peace and love So what are some of the current challenges that we are we are facing today? Where can we do better? Well, I would say that the challenges for the open jays foundations are the same challenges that that are of communities faced Like how do we grow this community? How do we make people engage? How do we support them? Like these type of challenges and But yeah, I think in general the open jays foundation does a great job with addressing all these challenges I think we still need to engage end users more I think that's our our biggest challenge is making sure that those Who are using the technology are in there a giving feedback to the various projects? Contributing, you know their give back essentially for all that they've taken advantage of and you know You potentially even supporting the foundation at at some level it takes effort and Money to keep things things going and while we have a good base It's it's always great to have more folks come in and support and grow and get our message out even broader for each of the Projects not for the foundation, but who cares what the foundation is called It's each one of those individual projects that we want to see promoted and have the resources that they need to do What they want to do so I think that's the challenge for us right now is really getting the end users to engage well with us and support this I think the biggest challenge I see in the community in the industry is I think that the You see the same people contributing but both at the contributor level and the governance level and the governance the foundation governance as well as the the Project governance and I think Seeing representation. I think I mean the biggest domination. I see it's very US based I mean, I'm sure You know the the There's lots of people using our technologies all over the world and we it's a conversation that we've had at the CPC See level a bunch, you know, how can we help? Can we change our meeting times at different times? You know, how do we reach out to folks? I think There's definitely a representation. I mean well, this will never be solved But it's definitely an ongoing problem that I think we there's a lot of us putting efforts towards and I think That's the place where I personally think It would be great to see some growth over the next few years Yeah, we've had that one for a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, I think lots of work to do to bring in more underrepresented communities And so I mean how how did you get involved in open source? I mean, do you have to code you? I mean, I think it's it sounds pretty intimidating. I think for folks so Yeah, I was terrified. I always describe it and I always looked at it earlier in my career. I looked at it like You know a coliseum of people just yelling at each other. That's what it seemed like from the outside And I got installed one of my mentors had this project That was open source It was a Twitter client for Windows that I was able to get involved in it was just kind of a baby step That grew from there was so neat experience Yeah, I Got involved through local communities. So first I started getting like yeah Going to events conferences then I became one of the leaders and then yeah, it just started from there So I went the path that I recommend many people do it Which is go out and get involved in chop wood and carry water and that means do things even as simple as help build docks Right our docks are our biggest unsung heroes So I helped a fellow in Bermuda with a popular satellite tracking program Back in the 90s But you know, that's how I got my start just doing the documentation and helping him get through that and doing all the testing as Well, too, I became you know, T tester number one and Pulling things together. So and I always recommend that people, you know, do whatever they can to participate Find people within the community who are leaders help them get the tasks done that they want to get done and they'll help you then You know land your patches and become part of the community and get much more involved And that's your path to becoming a committer or maintainer in a project with as much speed as you possibly could get Yeah, and I will add that community is very open So they like people to contribute even if it's small if you can do translations if you speak another language There is a lot of things and the community is really open for you to start and if you're if you're a developer do the code reviews Right make your comments known. Yeah part of your shoes. Yes And if you're not a developer, there's a lot of ways too. I mean, I am not a developer But it turns out I can write about code. So yeah, so there's a lot of ways to get involved and I was sort of always a policy wonk and I find that this is a nice little balance if you like sort of diplomacy a little bit and I think I love the working across company across Geographical boundaries. It's been pretty great And we do have lots of opportunities at OpenJS from our program committee for our conference We've just launched a scholarship fund if you're interested in participating in that and the mentorship We have so many ways to get involved that don't involve code, but yeah code review. We'd love that too. Love that too Um So I think you had talked about your career I mean, how has open source sort of and working in the community sort of helped your career path? Do you think? Geez, I got a little too long a career. I date myself. So, you know, I was back at the very beginning I had to solve For a price point for a server and and so we found and it's Torvald and started talking to him about Linux and that's when IBM started making its commitments to you know, actually support Linux as something you can use in your enterprise and Put our patent portfolio behind it joined OIN Helped to really foster that and make that happen. So so I was That's you know, where I got started in this and and how it's happened and I've been part of Various other things as we've gone through time here it's Mike, you know, I've made vice president in the company, right, you know Okay, you know, so so being involved in these projects didn't hurt me, you know Not so much and and I was able to contribute by helping You know shape the policies inside the company and get things out into the open and then for the last 10 years or so really running the open source activities on IBM across the world, so It's it's, you know, it's certainly driven my career. I can't be kindly enough because you also learned to Behave with people. I guess that's the best word. I can use for it, right? Go out there be participative value everybody's contributions the things they have to say listen to them be part of the communities and That that's a skill. I think everybody Yeah, open source and being involved in the communities has shaped my entire career I'm head of developer advocate a few is that not no source anymore. I get confused But but yes being part of this has opened the doors in so many levels. I personally and professionally and Yeah, I just right now. I'm fully focused on developer Advocacy so creating content creating videos being part of communities is picking up conferences. So yeah, it's changed my whole career I think it's open source is I'm I think open source has really Helped my career in the way that I'm a fine developer, right? Like I'm I'm a decent developer I'm not the most amazing developer, but I think with community I get to learn from so many different people and Both be empowered by a large group of folks and help empower those individuals as well So I think it's really a force multiplier in general for the things that are important to you, which has been really neat Great, I don't know how we're doing on time 15 minutes, okay, so So one of the other things we hear although we sometimes may be joke about is is Kind of this open source governance boring And we always say boring is cool boards are unanimous most of the time But boards are unanimous in their decisions most of the time. Yes, we are boring boring so We have some we do have some fun. Yeah That is a question are we boring no If you tuned in to our public meetings, I Think it's great. I think I Know I don't think if I if it was boring I wouldn't be doing it It's very hard to keep my attention I think the And I think I think the thing that I've observed that's most fun is the people getting to know the people working with different people like being able to come every week to CPC meetings and see Robin and Jory and a whole bunch of other people and hear what's going on in their lives and Understand why they get involved in What motivates them and that kind of thing? I think those are I think that's the fun part Yeah, I don't think it's boring either Because because of the people that you get to me very cool people that are creating great things I know so because the project that creating like I mean Creating no JS or creating. I don't know like APM like it's so many so many great things that are being built right now so I think yeah, it's not boring is a lot of things to contribute and Yeah, sometimes like the meetings can get a little bit too technical and people can get lost But but you can always participate and as I say before like the community is very open and they Help encourage people to participate. Yeah, and I was just talking about the board of directors the rest of the community is great Great, I thought it was sometimes funny. We support the infrastructure of our many of our projects including jQuery So Brian Warner is our program director. So can you imagine when he's? Doing in a little infrastructure tweak to jQuery and he has he's like waiting 30 seconds for something to load and he feels like 70% of the world's websites are Going to crash, but they don't so that's really fun and exciting right? It's definitely not boring. It gives them some gray hair I think that's That's about it. So Just sort of going circling back, you know To the projects that really make the fount make up the foundation. So How does you know the cross-project council or the or the board decide? Maybe the board doesn't decide which projects we take on I Don't know We have a so for the projects reached out to us We have a pretty transparent checklist that is in our GitHub You can take a look at just questions about Representation what companies are represented it represented on you as part of your project Do you have a code of conduct? Is that transparent? How do people contribute? You know, what is that process? There's just things that we think are important that Are part of the projects already and then as a group will get together and we vote to see if If it makes sense and we think about first of all, does it make sense for the project and does it make sense for us? Sometimes the projects are too small. It's too much. It's just creating more work for them and not a lot of value and or you know if For example, a project is completely owned by one company that can maybe be a conflict of interest that kind of thing So those are the things that we look at when people are joining And tied the board really doesn't We don't do anything with that exactly and actually Liz's answer There's a little bit of truth in that as well because we have been having working sessions with our cross-project council on to define our Technical strategy on which projects and we always say if a project is super important to the ecosystem the community Very it needs to be nurtured and cherished Let's bring it in and so how do you prioritize on the proactive and reactive and again very Transparently we've been working on that and we don't have all the answers yet So if you want to help us figure it out, we would love to love to have you there. So So what other questions do I want to ask We had sort of talked about influence like so Does becoming like a member Allow me to like bring in my project to the foundation Does being a member allow me to influence any technology decisions or how I spend the money at OpenJS The good thing about the foundation is not that it's just you making decision is a group of people So you can say like oh, yes, let's put some money on this It's like it's a group of people that has to make the decision So that makes it all easier and better and more transparent and and from a financial perspective We try to operate as a board in you know the way you'd want any entity to operate So we have a finance committee who looks at what we're spending our money on creates a budget works with the staff to get that in place and then That gives them the freedom to spend against that budget and if there's Trouble or something or some new thing they want to go spend against we work to reprioritize and reset things and continue on and That is approved by the board. So having you know Seat on the board at the table gives you the ability to have influence on that But we're always out trying to meet the needs of the community. That's really why we rebalance and do things So but that helps with it now any other in do undo influence in terms of getting your project in now It doesn't matter you can have good things that still You know CPC looks at that now. We don't want that in here. So and because It's it's not a pay-for-play in that regard. It's it's you're there to support the overall community and and things work on their merits of what they've been put together with in the community behind them not anything else Yeah, I think I think the thing that was most surprising to me about influence is how easy it was to get involved I encourage anyone who's at all even a little bit interested to join a CPC meeting. They're on every Tuesday Varying times depending on your time zone anyone can show up anyone can become a part of the CPC and Anyone can be part of that discussion So I think the influence is really up to the individual in the way that it kind of is similar to your day job You know like your your influences equals The amount of work that you're willing to put into it the folks that you're connected to that kind of thing I think that This CPC is just a really easy way for anyone to show up and have opinions and be heard and work with people So I think the influence part was really surprising to me because I was expecting Okay, I'm gonna have to sit in these meetings for a year and then maybe I can talk about things But no, I think everyone's welcome all opinions are welcome and it's it's always helpful to have more hands Right and the interesting thing the way the cross-project council is structured we have Our large projects have representatives with voting rights But if you want to just be anybody you can just come and participate and if you show up for any length of time You can be a voting member as well So again, it's completely open if you go to our open jsf.org website You can go to our collaboration page and there's a public calendar So you can add them all onto your calendar for reminders. There's a slack invite. So all of those are right out there. So I Think we have one question. Do we have time for a question? I was just gonna open for questions. So great Fantastic here. Let me run with the mic. Yeah so I think we were saying before that You know Developers on sales people probably true I think Liz said earlier the doers should be in charge or should be in governance positions So people actually in the community should be making the decisions and Todd you are saying the biggest challenges and user engagement. I Think this all wraps up into one interesting problem Which as is as you know, open source projects often start as duocracies like the people get together around a problem They want to solve there's larger companies get involved who can offer many more resources But come with processes That kind of ability to crystallize the vision and bring new people into the project becomes harder Have you kind of seen best best practice around forming future vision and for kind of innovation or priorities? For a project as its scales So as as kind of large organizations become involved having a vision for the future that attracts more people and engages and users And allows other companies to offer their resources as well so, you know the The one that strikes me the most is kubernetes, right? What happened there to? Incent people to want to continue to come in and participate because it it's scaled to something huge right, you know thousands of participants making sometimes just a single You know commit sometimes many many usually in Projects of thousands of people you'll find that you know There's a hundred people who make or ten people even who make most of the work happen and then lots of other things that that come in behind it I think the the formula that I've seen work best as has been as we set up organizations tried to do the street three-legged stool approach right where we have The backing that comes from the supporters the company side of it Them able to put their resources into the projects But a technical oversight committee who is essentially Watching what's going on with the projects and making sure that we pick the right things to go and do and then end users Giving us feedback immediately into the process to help shape the direction of where things are going So that that backlog that's developing that you're trying to go and you know get into Upstream is is shaped by what the end users say they really want And that that gives you that that future sort of vision without it Just being a big push of technology from the various company members trying to go push it You have you have a backdrop of real user experience who's saying no we need this and and I think that's what really helped Them grow and do the things that they were they were looking at doing Great, so I've learned on the health and safety protocols I shouldn't be passing the mic, but I'm happy to repeat questions. That would have been a hard one to remember Okay, you ask it loudly, and then I'll repeat it for the online folks. Yeah, okay That's a great question. How do you and how do you? Encourage transparency and communication or break into that particularly at the higher levels where decisions are being made Yeah Yeah, I will say that to have a very clear cut of conduct is very important I know so having a channel of communication that allows you to be transparent Like if it's zoom or if it's github, it's like so everything is already there like yeah and having people Call out folks or just do everything publicly. I guess right is the hard part there is some spammer But but basically when you see a discussion that should be going on Out in the public and it's it's for some reason happening in just a private small little set of folks You say no stop. We need to go and get this out into whatever communication method you're doing. I think that's what's so key Yeah, also another thing is like everything for example in the open juice foundation all the meetings are being recorded and also published on YouTube So it's public everything you can see all the meetings from the past And so it makes it easier to be transparent when everything is public that's outside Yeah, those two I think the YouTube is a big one. Yeah. Yeah, and and flagging it when they should be public Yeah, yeah, and sometimes, you know, I've gone on YouTube and looked at you know, for example, no JS you know build meetings or release meetings and You know, so then I kind of get a sense of what they're talking about And then sometimes you can just join and be what we call lurkers and that's super cool, too You can speak up if you feel like it if not you are always welcome again I think we heard from github this morning. We want all key hands-on keyboard, right? So all hands-on keyboard so I Think we have like a minute left. I just want to thank everybody. I don't know if you have any sort of Closing thoughts that you'd like to share No, just thank you and thank you for everything that you know yourselves and the foundation does to support us as well As the Linux foundation does it's it's great to be part of this And we're doing something for the world and and for our companies as well, too, as we participate Yeah, I just also want to say thank you and thank you to all of you to be here and also An invitation for all of you if you want to join any type of communities or the foundation is always open Yeah cross-project council every Tuesdays the Google calendar is online Tuesdays are my favorite days So yeah, if you want Tuesdays to be your favorite day, then come hang out with us awesome. Okay. Thank you