 Well, welcome to What's Next, a seminar series presented by IBM Research in which we spend time with our researchers learning about the exciting work that they're doing. I'm Shaheen Parks, an innovation strategist here at IBM Research. Today, rather than a technical talk, we pull together a group of women for a candid conversation about their professional experiences. Our hope is to use this conversation to address some of the reasons that we recognize today as International Women's Day and to further the discussion around what role gender has played in all of our careers. We have an amazing group of women here representing a wide variety of fields and roles across IBM Research. Rather than trying to list the many honors and distinctions of my panelists, I'll turn it over to them to introduce themselves. I'll start with Priya, who's sitting next to me here in the studio. Hi, Shaheen. It's great to be here. My name is Priya Nakurkar, and I'm currently the Director of Cloud Platform Research at IBM. And I started here 13 years ago right out of fresh out of grad school with my PhD. So as an individual contributor, so this has been my entire professional experience right at IBM Research. Great. Sarah, could you tell us about yourself? Yeah, hi. I'm Sarah Berger. I am a research staff member at IBM and I am a cognitive neuroscientist by training. I, like Priya, have also transitioned directly from grad school into IBM. So I've been here about five years and my work has really been first and foremost about translational and clinical neuroscience and pain. But I've also recently transitioned into the field of, like, responsible technology and technology. Great. Olivia, you're up. Hi, everybody. My name is Olivia Lanez. Thanks for having me. I'm from IBM Quantum. I graduated in 2020 with my PhD in quantum physics here at the IBM team. I work half on the research side doing experimental work in the quantum labs. And then half of my time is spent managing the Kiskit community and education efforts in North America. Fantastic. And Sasha? Hey, everyone. Sasha Kamuisilovich. I'm an IBM fellow and I lead our trustworthy AI organization. So I'm a machine learner, data scientist, data junkie, that kind of stuff. I like to build models. I joined IBM 23 years ago before that I was with Bell Labs. Wonderful. Well, thank you all of you. We're so excited to have you here today. To kick it off, I have a question for Olivia. Olivia, how would you say that your professional life as a woman in the workplace is different than how you might have imagined it before you started? Yeah. So when I think about this question, I think, you know, it was just basically my entire assessment of what my career would look like as a research scientist was wrong, basically. So I think first and foremost, I do a lot of work like this that I didn't anticipate doing before. I do a lot of mentorship, a lot of engagement, education efforts with students. I especially like to focus my efforts on diversity and different initiatives that encourage women in STEM. And I think that this is something that I didn't see myself doing or I didn't anticipate being part of my career when I was first getting into it. And I think that this is very different than something that a male counterpart, a male colleague might do because it is very time consuming. I don't want to complain, but it's a duty and it's a responsibility and I view it as a very important responsibility of my job. But I just think it's something that, you know, a male colleague in my similar position wouldn't be doing. Yeah, absolutely. You know, that makes a lot of sense. I think we've all been in this position and it does take time and effort. I can relate to that as well. And maybe luckily for me growing up, I was a little bit of almost blind to the power of, you know, realizing that you are a minority and really, you know, being kind of sharing what that means. And the challenges you face with others has a real impact. So I say I was lucky growing up because I didn't notice that, oh, I'm one of few and so on for, you know, maybe I should thank my family for that. But I definitely see the power of what, you know, we are doing here today. And while it takes energy, it has real impact. I think be it explicit or even subconsciously, just absorbing the fact that, you know, there is diversity. People are doing these different things and it makes it all the more welcoming for others. Absolutely. I think representation really matters. And I think it's also important to kind of share our experiences, not just see the people who look like us, but speak about things that we've experienced that others may not know. So for me, for example, a big shock was like, you know, I was a grad student and the researcher and I worked really hard. But one of the things that really changed for me is like being a mother. And when my daughter was born, I kind of realized that it's not a burden, but in a way, things that happen to women and the kinds of workloads and pressures that we see. I don't see that they are equal, but we don't often talk about it. So I became more vocal about talking to my colleagues about things that I find hard or difficult or things that bother me like, you know, missing my daughter quite a bit. I don't see my husband doing that. So I like to talk about it because people don't know and maybe don't assume and they might be going through the same things or whatever we feel inside. It's good to share. I couldn't agree more, Sashka. I know personally I felt a lot of pressure in terms of thinking about when to share personal details around pregnancy or the challenges having infants at home. And it was hard, but I do think that the more people are open about those things, the more comfortable it is for all of us to be open about them. So let's think about a slightly different topic. I'm going to direct this one to Sarah. Sarah, I wanted to ask you a little bit about mentorship. What role would you say having allies or mentors has played in your career? It's basically been just about everything. So I mean, I've been really lucky and privileged to have really good mentors and allies, I think, throughout my career. If I had to pick two, I would say the first one was actually right in undergrad. My first professor and first, I guess, mentor, he essentially changed everything about his NIH grant funding. And I really wanted a summer position and he completely redid his funding so that I would have the opportunity to dig deep and actually jump in to research for the first time. So I got this experience to do bench neuroscience research like when I was 19, which was fundamental. And he did more than just that, too. He actually gave me leadership opportunities. So rather than just being like this lab member, he wanted me to learn how to train other people. He wanted me to learn how to advocate for equipment that we needed and such. So, you know, it's about like giving people a chance, but also giving them like an opportunity to grow. And I would say as well, like at IBM, I've again been really lucky. But for this, it's been a lot of people that I've had as mentors or allies have been at IBM for a lot longer. And so they've been able to help me navigate whether it's the politics, whether it's the environment in general, different hierarchies and have also given me opportunities. So one person basically said, hey, I want you to give this talk for me at all hands research event. So across IBM. And I, you know, that gave me so much visibility that I wouldn't have had otherwise. And it also because it was on a topic that I was really interested in, but I hadn't been able to really get my foot in the door yet. It's neuroethics. It actually allowed me to start pivoting my career. So I think like what a lot of people don't realize is when you do these like mentorship or ally or ally like things, right? Whether that's sticking up for people, talking to them, giving them opportunities, they might seem like these like small apps or like these one off things, but they really have the potential to change a person's career. And for me, that has been 100% true. Sarah, that makes a lot of sense. And it sounds like having had these opportunities has really helped you further your career. I'm wondering, do you think that if you hadn't had these opportunities come your way and people supporting you to take these risks, your career might have taken a different path? Yes, 100%. I think like, I think a lot of times it's not just about getting like the opportunity, but what you just said is also about the support. So it's not enough to get in the door, be at the table. But like having someone acknowledge you, having someone say, hey, what do you think? Hey, I want you to leave this project. Hey, I support you. If you know you screw up, you know, I got you. Like I think like that gives confidence. But then it also for me, like it makes me compelled to be a really good mentor for somebody else and like feed it forward. So I think like, it's not just also about how it's changed my career, but how it impacts other people's careers through like what I'm trying to also emulate. If that makes sense. So Sarah, it sounds like you're saying that both having an individual or individuals who supported you and helped you grow was important. But as well, you were really surrounded by a cultural situation where there were lots of people who were supportive and looking out to give you a leg up or have your back when you needed it. Yeah. And it seems like that sort of organizational culture tends to feed itself, that when you see people helping each other, you in turn help other people as well. And really that sounds like the kind of organization we'd all like to be a part of. Exactly. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. I can relate very well to that. I think for me, one of the most critical turning points in my career was when I first became a manager and I was not only transitioning to becoming a manager, but changing areas completely. So I had lots of anxieties. You know, I don't know this area, you know, will people respect me and so on. So that support factor was critical for me to take that leap of faith. And you know, I knew that my new manager was doing the same, taking a leap of faith and knew that I would step up and his words at the time still are stuck in my mind. They're etched in my brain. And what he said was, well, you're making a big transition and, you know, you can make all the mistakes you want in the first year and I'll be here to support you. And so he also recommended that I read this book called Flying Without a Met and, you know, really take the risk, perform to my fullest potential and not worry about all the possibilities of failure. And I think it was such a tremendous boost to my career that I remember it to this day and try to return. As you said, you know, I established that culture of people who are taking these risks, you know, how can all of us support them? That's so great. And you know, for me, it's actually interesting for me that the mentors who had the most impact on me and my career were the ones who actually put me on a spot. Who would do something that otherwise I would be uncomfortable or afraid to do. And they kind of believed in me when I didn't. And I think that's how I really progressed, come to think about it, all the really risk things that I did or both things that I did were because someone actually told me, yeah, you can do it. So, Sascha, I have somewhat personal question for you. What would you say is the most difficult lesson you've had to learn in your professional life? Yeah, so the one thing that I always believed in, like, you know, being a student and going to grad school, I kind of always felt like, gee, if you work hard, then if you give your best, people will know and people will notice. And then when I did research, like I spent a couple of years doing things, getting a whole bunch of, you know, awards, good stuff. And I realized there are a lot of people around me who are like the same tenure or whatever they were getting promotions and I actually spent like a really a lot of painful time thinking, what did I do wrong? Like, why did I make a mistake? So eventually it was like a real agony, right? So I went to my manager and I said, look, you know, I have to ask you this, why is my work not so good? What are the kinds of mistakes that I'm making because I see people being promoted? And he said, well, but you never asked for it. And it was like a whole new world opened up. And today I'm still not comfortable asking for things, but I realized that if we don't do that, if we don't make room for ourselves, if we don't make ourselves known and visible, others won't. So, yeah, I think hard work matters, but taking care of ourselves and asking for things is an important skill to have. Yeah, for me, I definitely would like to echo that, you know, 100%. I think we talked about how important it is to have good mentors already, but the best advocate is always going to be yourself. So no matter how good you have of a mentor or somebody looking out for you, you have to learn how to advocate for yourself. And I think that's really skill development. I don't think people are necessarily, you know, born with that skill or not. It's something that you just have to pick up and it varies depending on the environment that you're in. So it's something that you can, I think, change. And you're always going to have to figure out, like, how do I ask this person to get what I want? I would also agree with this. I think related is sometimes we also, we wait, we create kind of excuses for ourselves. We say, oh, you know, I'll do that tomorrow or I'll just wait a little bit longer. And I think as part of self-advocacy, one of my hardest lessons was realizing that my someday was like right now. And like, you know, sometimes other people can't change things for me only I can. So like, what does that look like? And I need to start pushing, you know, for myself or the changes that I want to see in my career or the environment around me. You know, I think it makes a lot of sense thinking about how we need to advocate for ourselves and raise our hands and get involved. But I want to bring us back to actually a point Priya made a little bit earlier where she was stretching and taking a risk. And she mentioned she had a bit of imposter syndrome. And I know that I immediately thought, yep, been there. And I guess I was just wondering if that's something that we're all sharing that there have been times where you have stretched and maybe you felt like, am I really the right person for this? Or is this, do I have the qualifications or the knowledge to do this? Well, I can start quickly by saying, you know, that was my first transition, right? But it's not that it's gone away. So it continues. But I realized that it has a lot to do with growth mindset because we are constantly doing things we haven't done before. And to Saskar's point, right, we have people who want us to know we are capable, but we have to stretch if it were all known and, you know, so on. Of course, that would be a very, very different thing. So I think bringing, recognizing that, OK, you will feel that way. But then also thinking about, well, embracing the growth mindset, I am going to learn what it takes. And, you know, I think sometimes it's also then turning it into, OK, what do I feel most unpopular about? And is it something I can address with learning more about something or, you know, talking to somebody who knows more and so on. But I just wanted to say it continues, you know, even after successfully navigating that particular situation, you are faced with the next one and you again wonder the same things. I was just going to say that something that I have noticed throughout my career is that the people that I respect the most are the people who ask questions and, you know, aren't afraid to ask a dumb question or ask about something that maybe people expect they already know. Those are the people that learn the most. That's around themselves with the best people. And those are the people that I respect the most and that I want to become. So I think the first thing that I would recommend to anybody is just like, you know, ask the dumb questions because they're not dumb. Ask them early because, you know, everyone has them. And that's how you learn. And I think also being being brave enough to say, I don't know this. I don't know answer to these questions or this is not my forte or I don't have a good skill in this, but I may know a person who does. I think it's it's the worst when you prepare or when you when you pretend that that, you know, and and it's just. Yes, yeah, I absolutely agree. It's also interesting because sometimes when I have imposter syndrome, it's not because I feel like I don't belong, but because everybody around me is just so good, right? And like, sometimes I've had to like learn how to like reframe that. So rather than it making me feel like I don't belong or that there's something not up to par with me, it's kind of like, how awesome is this that I get to learn from and be around it by all these people that have great ideas that are successful, that will help me grow. So that's how like I've been trying to combat it because I actually have it quite often. So it sounds like we've all sort of arrived at the same place of maybe getting a little bit more comfortable with discomfort and and learning to use that. Which which I like, I like hearing that. So, Bre, I have a question now for you and it's a bit of a fun one. How do you think we can encourage more women to go into STEM fields? Yeah, that's a great one. And of course, there are many facets to that. But one that's really close to my heart and that's because I have two daughters myself or an elementary school now is I really think we have to act early and catch it early. I think elementary school, middle school, because of course, at the workplace at IBM, we are doing a lot, right? We would make sure when we hire our hiring pool is diverse and so on. But I really believe that the pipeline breaks much earlier on. And what can we do to fix that? And again, I think at IBM, I got introduced to things like National Engineers Week, where we used to do school outreach here with local schools. So we go to the local schools and we talk about the work we do here and make it interesting, do some science experiments with them. And I know that I mean, it was great to see how it impacted the girls in the classroom, you know, other students. So catching that early. Another great program we have here is family science and Saturdays. You know, we again do fun experiments with the kids. And this gives up an opportunity not only for our kids here, but also local schools to participate. And I think that one is really, as I said, close to my heart and catching it early. And I think the second thing I'll say is we talk a lot about, you know, what can we do to to attract more women to STEM? I think equally important is what can we do to keep them there? Because I have enough friends myself who went to undergrad with me but are no longer in this profession for various reasons. So I think those two things come to my mind. Both of those really ring true for me, absolutely. I actually, so I have a daughter and a son and I notice already, you know, just the little signals they get from people all in all aspects of our life about math and science and how it's different for the two of them. So I think, yeah, exposing and encouraging early is so important. And you know, also, I think breaking the stereotypes. My daughter is 15. So I remember when she was like, I guess, first grade or something. And I went to buy her Lego set. Legos for boys and Legos for girls. And the Legos for girls were all very flowery and pink. And the girls were cooking and doing things. And the boys were building rockets. And I remember I got really creeped about. And that's how it starts. It's how it starts. I had the same thing. And I actually took out my own Legos for my own childhood, which at which time the Legos were much less gendered. And, you know, they they were just blocks of primary colors. And I pushed them on my kids so that, you know, we wouldn't have to make these distinctions. Yeah, I think it's it really is pervasive. I think one thing that I do whenever I talk to younger students is I address the stereotype head on and I say, you know, you might have had this experience with Legos. You might have had an adult in your life that hasn't encouraged you as much as your brother or something like that. And I want you to know that that's wrong. And there's no reason for you to think that or for you to apply those stereotypes to your life. That's great. I think absolutely, you know, it's important to recognize that it's happening, not sort of sweeping under the rug. That can sort of pull out this conscious detrimental effects that those conversations have on children. And once they are brought to the forefront, they can be systematically ignored or fixed. I think there's also like a stereotype for what science as an industry looks like and needs. Like so when you say like encourage women to go into STEM, like I ask, what does that mean? Because, you know, science is super interdisciplinary and we need people that are trained in more than just traditional, like technical sciences, right? So I think like another thing that I'm really trying to be more conscious of is how do we social scientists, you know, do interdisciplinary, you know, STEM interactions? How do we get people who might be really interested in science but coming at it from maybe like a policy lens or something like this? Like how do we get those conversations and more of those people into STEM environments, right? So welcoming more than just the new people with the technical expertise to be part of this. Yeah, broadening the definitions that we're using. Well, listen, it has been fantastic spending this time with all of you. I want to say thank you so much for having this conversation and sharing with our audience. And thanks for our audience as well for joining us today. We'd love to hear from you. Join in our conversation. How can we break the bias and encourage more women to go into STEM? You can drop your thoughts right into the chat. Thanks for joining. See you next time.