 Welcome everyone. And welcome to what promises to be a good 90 minutes of candid discussion. And of what our featured author today calls a reckoning and the sort of reckoning that can lead perhaps, hopefully, wantedly towards reconciliation. Hi, I'm Dr. Ike Wilson the third and it's my pleasure to serve as moderator your moderator for today's conversation. Before I introduce our author, I'd like to just quickly describe our plan for the next hour and a half. Once introduced, we'll give our author an ample amount of time to talk about his book, the motivations behind the work, the lessons revealed gathered and put forth for the reckoning. And his messages to us all on how those lessons gathered can and perhaps must and should be finally learned. Following the author's own talk about his book, I'll take a bit of moderators privilege and put a few questions to the author about the book, aiming to perhaps just add a little heat to the atmosphere of our virtual space here. And set conditions for what is sure to be a vibrant living room conversation with you the audience. So just for a quick introduction, you know, we are certainly privileged to have with us today, Dr. Ty Sedgely, Brigadier General Retired US Army, Professor Emeritus of the Department of History at the United States Military Academy at West Point and current New America International Security Program fellow soldier scholar Southerner and Southern gentlemen and that's something that I'm hoping that Ty flesh is out for us and gives us some description if not will will program doing q&a. In his new book Robert E Lee and me a Southerner's reckoning with the myth of the lost cause. Professor Sedgely challenges the myth and lies of the Confederate legacy, exploring why some of his country of this country's oldest wounds have never really healed. Old wounds made fresh cyclically throughout our country's almost 250 hit year history as a nation, and over 400 years struggle with America's exceptional form of inhuman bondage, chattel slavery. And made more dangerous dangerously new again, most recently on the streets of America and the social and racial justice protests this past year. And in the pushback and blowback against the same in the violent siege of the capital just three weeks past. Don't forget the visualization of three weeks past of protesters carrying the Confederate battle flag a banner for treason and racism through the capital rotunda, which was particularly jarring the strength of the iconography of the lost cause paraded through our temple of itself. Ty Sedgely grew up revering Robert E Lee from his southern childhood to his service in the US Army every part of his life was reinforced by and reinforce the lost cause myth. Now as a retired Brigadier General and Professor emeritus of history at West Point. Ty's views have radically changed in a unique blend of historical analysis and personal reflective memoir, Dr Sedgely deconstructs the truth about the Confederacy. And I'll leave that to the author himself to break out in describing in detail with us. It's an especially proud moment for me to introduce Dr Sedgely and to moderate today's session as time our longtime comrades and arms, as well as colleagues and scholarship both having served together for I think it was a little over a decade tie during our 10 years as professors on the West Point faculty ties great to be with you today and without further delay and let me turn it over to you to talk a bit about the book in the journey of reckoning it so vibrantly captures and conveys tie the virtual floors yours. Well thank you I can I want to thank New America for sponsoring this today it's really a privilege for me to be associated with such a great organization, and I have been told before that I have a face made for radio. So rather than look at look at me for this entire time. I thought I'd start out with a few slides to tell you my story pictorially while I while I talk about so I'm going to do my best year to share. Let's see if it works. And how's that. How's that. Okay, so I thought this is the name of the book and I wanted to hit you in the nose up front with with with what my argument is, but now I'm going to tell you how I got there. And I was born in Alexandria, Virginia, as a white southern boy you can see me rocking those pants with hair. Now I'm telling you the 70s we missed the 70s missed those bell bottoms, missed those plaid pants, but on the right, you'll see what was over the mantel in my house growing up in Virginia and was this flag that my dad found when he was teaching at Episcopal High School in Alexandria Virginia the four flags of the Confederacy. And we know the one in the middle left, which is the battle flag that was carried into the capital, the one on the far right is the stainless banner, the flag of white supremacy as they call it it was white to support white supremacy. I grew up believing under seeing that these were the were the way forward. I knew the words to Dixie before I knew the words to the star spangled banner. I grew up believing that Lee on a scale of one to 10 was an 11. And even though I went to church on Sunday every every Sunday I would have rated Jesus at about five. So he was, he was reverential, and every part of my life, maybe see that. But the book on the right meet Robert E. Lee still have to this day was my first chapter book I read it over and over again. It said that Lee was against slavery it said that he was a gentleman of the old school. And if you look at him there, you'll see that he looks like a military god on loan from Mount Olympus with that Confederate battle flag framing him travelers so smart he doesn't even need reins as he's going forward. On the left was my textbook that the state of Virginia had, and it looks like it's there they're greeting on a colonial version of the princess cruise ship. In reality, that is the middle passage, the slavery that that family is going into slavery from Africa, and what does it look like it looks like they're entering into as they called it a social security system. And this was meant to stop to as a as a way of protesting against massive integrate massive is mass resistance to integration and in fact, in the first grade I was bussed across town from the all white Douglas MacArthur elementary school to the segregated all black school and what was the name of the segregated all black school, Robert E. Lee elementary school. So I grew up in a in a as a white privileged man boy in a segregated world that was made that way to enforce white political power. And one thing that you saw my history when I looked up the history. It told me these I had never known so for instance, Alexandria spent all but all of 12 hours in the Confederacy before was occupied by the United States Army. And it was also originally part of the District of Columbia, George Washington mandated that and up until 1847 and it left to protect the slave trade. And in fact it was a major hub of the slave trade after DC outlawed it in 1850. It moved there and so those, if you've been around DC, there's still those little pillars of stone that are around the capital that you can still find. And, but when Alexandria left of black people in Alexandria to leave because they did away with all the schools they did away with black churches, they could not have manumitted free people in that city. So my hometown had this history of enslavement of segregation of lynching that I never knew about growing up. I went to Washington and Lee University. And that's a picture of me back in the head when I had hair those were the days. And I'm about to receive my commission. And there I am in my green uniform my hair is a little long that's the way we did it back in the 80s. And I'm about to go by the portrait of Robert E Lee in Lee Chapel where Lee is buried. And, and I was. So I went through and then on the right, I took my commission received it right in front of my hero Robert E Lee with with all those Confederate flags surrounding me. I wanted to be a Southern gentleman and what better place to be a Southern gentleman than at Washington Lee University I could get status as a white man there. And then below that is the oath that we all take that all of us have taken in the federal service, everybody except the president which is in in the Constitution, everyone else takes that oath. That oath was written in 1862 it's an anti Confederate oath written by Charles Sumner to it to ferret out those who were Confederates so when it says support defend the Constitution against enemies born in domestic that's talking about Confederates, when it's talking about purpose of evasion it's talking about Confederates. So that's the oath that we all take, and I took it surrounded by Confederate flags and I thought that that I thought they were good Americans doing their duty and I thought they were the romantic heroes. What was I wrong. And, and so what what we have is this lost cause of the Confederacy myth. And that's what I grew up believing, and it's a pernicious myth here that the parts about it they're all wrong. I'm going to go and question and answer we can go over any one of those about why they're wrong but the but but what they did was create a system of white political power, which disenfranchised black America, which led to the violent terror against black America which led to segregation to a racial police state and the South of my birth was a racial police state. And this lost cause myth which started really with with Robert E. Lee. In general orders number nine, which happened really immediately at the at the end of the war. They're trying to the South, reap the wind by going to war to create a slave republic. And they, they so the wind and they reap the whirlwind that which they most didn't want, which is a quality for black America actually occurred it ended their social system of slavery. And to deal with this loss, the way they dealt with it was to create this myth, this, this lie to enforce white political power. And these are all the things that I grew up believing and none of them are true. And if you have if you want to any questions and answer I can go over any one of them and debunk them. But the purpose was this. On the right, segregation, white terror, black disenfranchisement and Confederate monuments all supported white supremacy. They supported white political power, and the resistance when when equality starts to come after World War two with Brown versus the board and other things that there are more to the Confederate monuments go up during the period of lynching 1890 to 1920. They come up again after World War two as a reaction to integration, but all of them are for the same purpose, which is to enforce white supremacy. And so if you read that when the statues came up. That's what they are all about they're about enforcing white supremacy and that's why calling out the loss cosmic matters because we're going to have reconciliation we can only have truth and facts first. And that's why this is so important. I graduated from Washington Lee and I went into the army and these are two of the first places I went in the army. And when I and I didn't think anything of that was perfectly natural to go to Fort Bragg and Fort Benning. And I thought I highlight this a little bit because as many of you know the National Defense Authorization Act has said that we have to change our history in the next three years, and West Point has to change its to I'll talk more about that as well. And some people are telling me oh Ty you just want to change history. Well, we should talk about. First, who these people are and what they did and you'll see what I have on the right there. Remember that Robert E. Lee killed more US Army soldiers and any enemy general in our history. There are people that that were traitors for slavery, and I'll go into a little bit more on who they are, and they're a motley crew. They really are so I'm not going to go through all who all of these folks. I thought I just mentioned John Brown Gordon the one in the center, brave soldier, really the only non West Pointer in the Confederate Army who rose to high command and did well. He was, he was shot five times at the Battle of Antietam and survived and was at Appomattox at the end. After the war, he never served in the US Army after the war, he created and led the KKK, a white terror organization in Georgia in 1868 he gave a talk to black Charlestonians and said to them. We bought and paid for you that's why we fought the war. And if you are to demand equality, that will be a race war and the 3040 million of us will exterminate the 3 million of you. And then as late as 1890s, and he was governor and Senator, he says the purpose of the Democratic Party is for white supremacy. Benning on the far left is the leading secessionist from Georgia, a leading secessionist in the country, worked since 1849 for the dissolution of this country, and said have this apocalyptic way of talking about about race relations and what equality would be, Pope was the worst general on either side. So, AP Hill was a war criminal who executed US troops and then fled to Canada after the war because he worried about being charged. Here's some more of that motley crew. PGT Beauregard was a superintendent at West Point for four days before fired for sedition. And they have really good evidence that he raped enslaved women. And in fact, his great, great, great grandson on the black side of the family actually graduated from West Point in 2011. And he brought his enslaved people to West Point, even though it was against New York law for that. So this is a, this is not, not a terrible group. And then there's Robert E. Lee. I think that we should know this about Lee, particularly that he did commit treason as it's the only time in the Constitution he was indicted and really just mismanagement on the US part is why he wasn't finally tried for that. And he chose treason. And there were eight US Army colonels from Virginia, he was the only one that chose treason, the only one. And why did he do it, because he believes so firmly in human enslavement as a social system, and as a free labor force. And he was a cruel enslaver of humans as I say there as I say below there. So I argue that he committed treason was the only senior Virginia to do so, and he did it to create a slave republic because he spent most of his later time in the army, running an enslaved labor farm, not as on with his regiment the first first or second cavalry regiment on the Texas frontier. Why did we name them, why do we name these posts we named them in World War one and World War two. And we should remember that the army during this period was a white supremacist organization. There was only two black officers, line officers during this time, the highest ranking of them was Charles young third black graduate of West Point us just an incredible officer. And he rode 500 miles from Wilbur force Ohio to Washington to show his fitness, Wilson Woodrow Wilson the most racist. President in the 20th century forced him to retire. And there's what Pershing said about the black forces in World War one room and they so we named them during World War one and World War two one, because the army itself was a white supremacist a racist organization to for white white sensibilities in the south because remember, because the south was a racial police state, no black people had a voice they did protest, but they had no political voice because of white terror and disenfranchisement. And then if you see the bottom the next ones were were named in World War two about five and World War two. And this the army war college which was the, the planners in the US Army during this period, had this Negro manpower study from 1925 to 1938. And the problem that they said, the problem was that how are they going to that that block troops won't fight we know that wasn't true, but that's exactly what they said and they created these manpower studies to show that completely from a racist standpoint. So that's why we named them. There are other places that are problematic. There's also ground of Arlington National Cemetery which is a right about in the book, which is operated by the US Army, those Confederate battle flags go in there, not the flag of the Confederacy, the battle flag which is a flag of white supremacy. You can see on the, the gravestones of the Confederate markers around Stonewall Jackson Plaza that that was created in 1898 as the Southern Cross of honor is a white supremacist symbol created in the late 1890s. If you see the monument 32 foot monument in Arlington, that was there to say that slavery was right. The South was right. It was dedicated in 1914 by Woodrow Wilson, and it is a racist tropes you see on the far right and overweight slave woman with a tear in her eyes she takes her the baby from her from her quote unquote white master her enslaver and another child down below. It's meant to show the trope of the Mammy and in fact in 1923. We came within a couple of votes of putting a 40 foot statue to the quote Mammy on Capitol Hill, done by Southern segregationist. So this is a deeply evil monument that is on Arlington National Cemetery that we have not talked about dealing with yet and I hope that the commission will, because it's there to support a white supremacist version of this country. West Point. So this might my journey really started at West Point. When I, when I looked at trying to figure out I was walking down Lee road, I live on Lee road by Lee gate and Lee housing area, and I stopped at a sign I'll show you in a second for Lee barracks. And I wonder, why are there so many things at West Point named after Robert E Lee. I understood my alma mater Washington Lee, but why West Point. I went into the archives and the archives are what changed me. The facts change me the evidence changed me. And what I found was that West Point banished confederates in the 19th century as traders so the one on the far left battle monument has war of the rebellion only has the US Army on the left next one is column hall or Memorial hall banishes confederates from it because they quote unquote forgot the flag to follow false gods. None were allowed in there, none in our cemetery. In fact duty on our country on the far right West Point's motto was anti Confederate what does mean, but that starts to change. And the first monuments to Lee come in the 1930s at West Point. Why is that significant. That's when Benjamin O Davis junior the first black graduate of West Point in the 20th century comes back to West Point. So it is a it is a scratchy Confederate monument at West Point, and it is a reaction to integration or reaction to equal rights. But that's and the 19 one on the far left the 1950s you'll see an enslaved servant in the background there. That was a reaction to the army's integration forced by President Truman that started occurring during the Korean War and the army fought to the nail against integration initially. The one in 1970 Lee barracks. That's when we start the minority admissions program and there was a lot of blowback against that as well. And, and then there's the ones in 2001 2002 that come that are just almost inexplicable, except that the one on the left was given by the class of 1961 that grew up with this lost cause myth. Right given by the class of 1957, which also grew up with this lost cause myth. So Lee, the avatar of treason of the trader is is really ubiquitous at West Point. So, listen, we can change these names, our values, what we should name these after are those people who represent the values of the United States Army, I put that Medal of Honor up there just because it's a nice little trivia point. That's the original Medal of Honor and still the design for the air for the Navy and the Marines. If you look closely in there, it's Lady Justice smiting the foul spirit of secession, the south secession, and secession is holding three serpents to show that it is evil. And that's still the one the Navy and the Marine Corps use. And so we should honor those like these soldiers that represent America. Many of these you may know about, we can talk more about who they are. Rubin down the bottom right survived the Holocaust, joined the army, fought in Korea, fought off an entire battalion North Koreans to save his platoon, finally captured, went into the POW camp. He was offered to go back to his original country of Hungary if he wanted to refuse, and yet got food went out stealing food from the North Koreans, which he would have been shot at caught to give to his fellow people. We have great people that represent this country, the values, the diversity, the courage, and the patriotism of true Americans. And one more thing you said I was just telling you about this, I tell you when I saw this, I was ready to put back a uniform on and go kick some butt, because it is not only that the flag of treason. If you see the picture in the back, that's Charles Sumner, Charles Sumner was nearly came to death on the floor of the Senate by Preston Brooks, because he excorciated in slavers. It took him four years to recover when he came back, he wrote the oath that we now take that was written in 1862, that was then called the ironclad oath. The ironclad oath was the greatest abolitionist in the United States Senate, and to desecrate our the people's house with that flag in there just drives me absolutely bonkers and so we can we can certainly talk about that as well. So that's a short synopsis of my book, it is, and this is sort of the theme. I think it's one of the groups with the racism that I grew up with that I was, and the only way that we can that we can get to a better place is we can't get to reconciliation without truth without facts. And the truth telling the truth is a ruthless act. Sometimes we have to rub humanities nose and the rub the note rub facts in people's nose. And I think that's what I'm doing. And I have to do it, because the way I grew up makes me, you know, converts have the most zeal. So, I thank you for listening to me but I really believe the only way to prevent a racist futures for us to first acknowledge and understand our racist past. So thank you very much for your attention. Well, Ty, I just got to thank you right up front for what I knew I anticipate was going to be a fast and furious but incredibly comprehensive and pointed and candidly pointed up front presentation. In fact, you know, I'm lucky as you were going through your talk. My own remembrances of my read a couple of times of my read through your book. But frankly, I was I was here scrambling through my my moderator questions set and what I want to do here is take a few minutes. Just to go back and forth a bit so we can, like I said earlier heat up the room, but I got to tell you did such a great job, you know, I was I was taking off questions that I that I thought I was going to be able to provoke around so maybe we can just put some meat on some of the bones you already already laid out but fantastically so my first question was to you and I'm just going to give you an opportunity it's it's quite redundant because you covered it a couple of times in your talk already but I think it can't be overstated. My first question was going to be and I guess it will be at this point. You know, if we looked at your indictments of Robert E. Lee, you know in the context of an article of impeachment or articles of impeachment if you will. Just in quick order what would those be and again you showed us two slides that really laid that out and in quick order but if there's any of those points you might want to emphasize for the audience just front and then we can we can move on from there. I'm happy to because I really can't say it enough because we grew up with this myth that Lee was the greatest gentleman ever and it was a national myth it wasn't just a local Southern myth so in 1936 Franklin Roosevelt, dedicates the Confederate the monument to Lee in Dallas this is a New Yorker and says Lee was the greatest gentleman in American history. So this is a national myth. There is for there's a Lee road in Hamilton at Fort Hamilton in in Brooklyn. There was a Lee highway in the western part of the United States. So the idea that the losers right the war is just bunk. I mean that the winners right that the history is just both the south one that. But if I had to indict Lee, the first I would indict him both morally and legally the moral, the moral one is he was an enslaver. He was a cruel enslaver who broke families apart, who maximize profits at all point it became a really a millionaire based on the backs of labor and then and had the whipped. I mean just really cruel in that regard. The second part of the moral aspect of this is is after is during the war which I didn't mention earlier is that as his army is going into Pittsburgh, he is kidnapping free black stealing black free people and his entire army did this and bringing them back for sale in Virginia. And then at the battle of the and he uses enslaved labor throughout the war to maximize his his number of people that he can put on the battlefield and does this further and further and further. And then at the battle of the crater in 1864 black troops the United States color troops are the first or the first nearly not the first they go into the crater that the miners have blown this huge hole and as they go in. It turns into a disaster and the Confederates attack in and they take enormous numbers of US CT troops, and then his army slaughters captured prisoners of war, a war crime, and, and he should have been held to account for that. So those are the both the moral and some of the legal. After the war, you know he says, listen, the quote unquote Negroes have to be disposed of. He says that everyone, every black person in Virginia should be thrown out of the state of Virginia. He talks to this, the United States House of Representatives and says that that black people are not equal, and that they should only be the and in Lexington, Virginia, when he was college president, black women were sexually assaulted by Washington and lead Washington college men throughout a refuse to protect the black people in Lexington. So I've got the first indictment is treason, which is, you know, the Constitution only mentions one crime and that is letting war against the United States. He clearly violated that. And then the purpose of that war, when everybody in the senior Virginia, Virginia did not, and the purpose, which we can never forget never let the smell of gunpowder overwhelm our sense of the time. And that's what I did. Oh, look at Antietam look at Gettysburg and that's so exciting and it is exciting. The purpose of this war is so clear. It's crystal clear it's like digging a bell. And if you can't understand the purpose of the war, everything else will make sense. And when you do understand the purpose of the war, everything makes sense. Hi. Your last point really resonates with me it resonates with my own, you know, 30 plus years of research on the American way of war and peace or peace and war, which really is a story of it. It isn't the American way of war isn't it's a way really of what you're talking about here and embodiment of Robert E. Lee which we read your book I mean it just resonates incredibly so of a hyper privileging of what you know what the great class would said a long, long time ago, in terms of what we would call the military object of war, the tactics and the, in the prowess of battle, and the application of, of lethal force and privileging that as purpose and end and aim over the actual political object as as scholars and generals in their civilian authorities alike have long call understood the purpose of war and, and what makes the abominable, sometimes unfortunately, necessarily palatable. Let's, I'd love to just tease that out with you a little bit in the way I'll introduce introduce the teasing out of that a little bit more is to ask you about how our, our, you know, our shared alma mater. I think one point is doing. And let me just start by you know what I was reading your book what came to me is that great decades old West Point Department of History poster. Much of the history we teach was made by those we taught. I think at one point I had that framed and had it hanging in my home office at some point I can't find it maybe that's just provenance. What are alma mater and alma mater is West Point and for you Washington and Lee. What are they still teaching about General Lee and his military genius and in this sense that you that you just laid out at the end of your of your answer to last question. What are they teaching right now what what do they continue to imprint on what are on what our future uniform military leaders leaders of character for nation as we intend it beyond the uniform. When it comes to their understandings of the meanings of peace and warfare itself. I think it's a great question. Go ahead. Well I think I think you're exactly right I mean that the idea of what wars are about are crucial and the idea that that getting the political goal correct. I mean that is the most it's so far away the most important thing. You know if you think about the South in this particular case. Every and when it once it once the war when Lincoln really makes a war about freeing enslaved people, then all those enslaved people that come up now join the army. They join the army by the way immigrant labor goes into the north because who would want to compete against slave labor into the south. And you and then you you have this purpose for the war and everyone understood that in 1863 what the purpose of the all the song said it. Everyone said it Grant said it, we lost it later on. Now, the way we teach it at West Point is my when I first started teaching in the mid 90s. The book we use written in the 70s had less than a paragraph on the purpose of the war, and it said states rights and, and slavery both. When we change it again in 97 96 just as I was leaving the first tour, they emphatically said that they said it was the wars about slavery we started reading about the USCT. The textbook that we created is has even as a chapter on the purpose. And I will say that we also did was we change, we think what we thought in the Department of History was what a person researchers and rights can change your character. So we did was create these digital sources for our American history course on gender and war on the on the civil rights movement and we made our students are cadets right on the civil rights on race and or gender. And what that did was is to say, listen, this in a way, our armies got to get this right first. Before we go to battle, we've got to get the race and gender right, and we don't, we don't have these right. And so from our history perspective we've been we really started doing this in 2013 is to say we're going to focus on these things so we had at least 30 or 40% of our, we have three core courses of two of those core courses, focus on race and gender, because we felt like that's the weakness that our army has, and we have to fix that. And, and it's great to talk about the strategy, but you have to, I mean it's great. You have to talk about the strategy, but part of it is getting your armies composition right, and the way they trade treat each other, and to make teammates, and we weren't doing that in the army we felt. So we had to change our curriculum to to affect that. I just got to share with you I mean you've really given us a great person on professional example of putting yourself for an example of, of the paradox, you know the oxymoror of all this and you know as a, as a black American soldier myself soldier for life now. And you know for my time as early on as a cadet at West Point, throughout my career up until quite embarrassingly so quite recently. Living the imprint, frankly, as a black man in America, finding a way of honoring the military genius of Robert E. Lee, privileging even the rebels and the Confederate cause despite to the point of despite the broken compromise of their political object. Right, right. Like that they are so great at the prowess of what we were taught from an early age and printed to understand as prowess at war, but having nothing to do with war itself. Right. So that lethal application of force, right, right, and the warping of how warping that can be of when, you know, when you divorce the military application from his political defining purpose, how you can be at least as you know, again, you know, there's a lot of cloud sweats here left with something pointless and devoid of all sense. If only clouds which were right. It would be bad enough, but it's worse than being left with something pointless and devoid of all sense is being left with something a grotesque. And I think of that in our own in our own experience right here in our own civil war, a particular type of war but I mean it was our reflect on the last 20 years of, of what we've been engaged in and in wars over there, and wars of support to countering insurgencies and terrorist operations. We look at the root causes. We take this applicate this warping application of privileging the military application over the political purpose. We skip root causes we script all skip all that we throw in the strategic route in fact, to a large would be still don't even teach our force, definitively formally struck the purpose of things strategy until around the 15 at the early as 18 to 20 mark your mark in our professional education system, and how we bring that forward. Last 20 years of campaigns of military application of force that we call war yet undeclared and question why we are not having a struggle of winning. I mean, I think I think there's a tie here to what you've laid out in terms of maybe part of the Genesis story found in our privileging of the military genius of Robert E. Lee, despite the corruptness of his originating cause. I'll pause there again see if you just want to put any more meat on those bones to that. I just one more thing to put on to it maybe you can take us in in in a deeper direction here. The other part of this loss myth, right that hey at the end of Appomattox, Appomattox comes and goes, and then we are taught to privilege Robert E. Lee for standing up in voicing and tamping down what was going to probably be another 2030 40 years of gorilla insurgency, and how we privilege with with tamping down that you know putting an end to the war itself, maybe your thoughts on that tie to educate us a little bit. Yeah, I think there are two things are the first though is we privilege Lee as a great military leader and he lost. He lost. I mean we should never forget. He lost. And listen, you know it was not a set deal that the that the, and by the way, I never use the Union Army. It makes it seem like it's, it's like it's Karl Marx's lost to history it's been a history they finally won one. No, they were the same blue uniform you wore. I wore that's the US Army and US Army soldiers and the Confederates killed US Army soldiers. So that's the first thing. The second thing about so Lee was at least you know I always put I just put the L on the forehead loser remember that. And he had a higher casualty rate than did then did grant grants the great hero. The second thing about the gorilla thing. Okay, let's say because he gets this and he gets lots of credit. He told his soldiers to go home. The thing about it is is that when they went to war to save again it's the purpose. I, they went to war to save their social system of enslavement of slave labor, which was the entire society is built on this. If they do a gorilla warfare, what's going to happen to the 4 million people that are in the South that are enslaved. How are you going to deal with them. Now remember the thing that scares white Southerners the most is a slave rebellion. And if there is, if it's chaos and gorilla warfare, then guess what's going to happen that the other fear that they have, and it's so ironic. It's like the irony is, is they fear the idea of black male sexuality. And in fact, when in fact, white, I put this in the book that most white kid white boys in the South's first sexual experience in the South is with enslaved women or enslaved girls. We call we call sex without consent rate, and I'll just use the word rate. It's rape. So that's the culture there not black men raping white women, white men reaping Bible. Could you imagine what the South would have been like, so there was no way that they could do gorilla warfare with 4 million black people in the South. So I'm not giving him credit for that. The day two days after the war he says, you know, we may not we may not accept this, because we want we'll need to dispose of the Negroes. So, no, you're not getting not getting a pass from me for that. Maybe talk a little bit about tie. As we talk about the hyper reverence to the tactical prowess of a Robert E. Lee. And then you just made the direct contrast to grant the drunkard. Maybe maybe unpack that a little bit because there seems to be also a tie here where we privilege the hyper tactical despite the purpose behind the application of force. And the real promise that the real prowess the real genius strategic and purposeful of a US grant from an operational you know the operational art as we call in the military, maybe maybe an opportunity to talk about there and how we have our references kind of wrong wrongly wired. Well grant not only understood the operational art but he understood the strategy and it was very soon in 1862 and he says, hey, they're not going to give up until we destroy slavery. He got it really early on grant captures three armies for Donaldson and Henry captures an army at Vicksburg, and then another one at Appomattox. He understands and then he's also the one that comes up with a great strategy of hitting them simultaneously across the width and breadth of the battle space. I can be that's our that's our jam there and it's our jam. My jam anyway, so you know we understand he understands how to do that he understands how to work for Lincoln. And he puts the freedom of enslaved people top among them and so it puts them in uniform. Now, does he make mistakes. Yes, it does he. So for instance, he has an order where he orders the ex ex spelling of all Jews out of Tennessee and out in Kentucky. He does do that we should talk about that. He has been an enslaved person for about a year that is that is a father law gave him and then freed them. So it's not as though he's perfect before and then the thing I put in the book. I love his general orders 108, which is what he said to his to his army upon victory, and it means the that that that you free to race and well did a nation. That's what battle monument said on West Point, free to race and well did a nation. So grant to me is the great here along with Lincoln, oh my gosh, the political genius of Lincoln, and and strategic genius, understanding the politics, and then the ability to translate that on to into the into on the battlefield and then the ability to write about it. Of course, he's got the greatest memoir of any soldier ever ever written. So yes, now we'll talk one more anecdote about that. So if you ever been in in grants to New York City on the Upper West Side. I went in there a couple years ago, I was teaching the, the tack, the course that the tax get from Columbia. So I went in there for the first time. And I look up and as soon as I get up there there's a mosaic right above, like it must be 20 feet by 30 feet. And it's a mosaic of grant shaking hands with Lee Lee is price so it's equal that was put up in 1965, showing the equality of Lee and grant in grants to. Oh my God was live. I mean I just I went I went ballistic I just couldn't I started almost screaming inside of there. And I can tell you for a fact that grant is not a lease to Washington University. And as you said, Lincoln's the penny, no face on on the penny of the face of a penny facing upwards even look at Lee repose and Lee Chapel, correct. Right and in fact I just heard this. I read somebody else sent me recently sent me another one I didn't realize this. The other reason is they wanted that the so the traveler is was Lee's horse during the during the Civil War, the great great horse and he gets almost as lauded as, as Lee does. And he was buried finally he was his bones were in the chapel or something and finally buried in the 1960s or 70s. And so people go there they still like leave carrots and apples but they also put pennies, they put pennies face down for two reasons the first is so that the so that Lincoln Lee, who is buried right next door can't see the hated face but I just heard the other one which is that Lincoln has to kiss travelers but so in fact so in fact there's it's even worse and so what usually happens with this lost cause and with this Confederate hagiography is it always worse than it first seems. Ty, how about talking to us and sharing with us your I think relatively recent experience and incredibly courageous one. If I if I can say so myself of your visit back to your alma mater Washington Lee and giving giving giving this presentation at at the at the at the center of gravity if we will, if you will. Oh man so I was, this was after Charlottesville and a good friend of mine Ted Delaney, who was a professor there started out in the early 60s as a custodian grew up black man grew up in segregated Lexington and went to become a custodian 20 years later he became a graduated 20 years later and came back as a history professor and that he recently died a last month great hero of mine, and was eventually a full professor professor emeritus and that really the soul of the school of the school and invited me back to knew my views on this we talked quite a bit. So I went back and I was, and really it's a basis for this book it was a speech called Robert E Lee and me, and I was invited back to Washington Lee in Lea chapel. So, man I was nervous in the service. Let me tell you, I was, I was going back to my alma mater and listen, I have a funny name I was on an ROTC scholarship. I am not a man of status you know I wasn't a rich banker I wasn't a lawyer. I wasn't from a money background and a lot of people from Washington Lee are. So anyway I went there, and I gave a speech, and there behind me is the recumbent statue of Lee, which is, he's lying on the battlefield. It's a in the whitest of Marvel to to show his the white supremacy, his portrait is just to the right, right there. And on that stage, I gave I called Lee, a trader for slavery on Constitution Day in Lea chapel. And I was so I like oh my gosh what's going to happen to me I you know I talked about so nervous about it. And the reaction was, they gave me a standing ovation. And I tell you, I felt this warm glow of acceptance you know, I mean I felt this warm glow that my all my schools accepted you for saying this. But as we all know, one speech does not change society, one speech does not change a university. So it takes way way more than that and so WNL is dealing with this and they're trying to figure out what do we do with our lost cause heritage, because it's not the same school that I went to is a really fine school, great school great faculty great students, but they have this lost cause mythology, and this lost cause that is that permeates the school, and particularly in Lea chapel and they just haven't been able to figure out how do we deal with this. So I'm going to ask you a couple of more questions and then we're going to open it up for some really ample time for a open living room discussion I think we got the heat, exactly about where. But you know in my own prep for you know for for this conversation that of course read read your book a couple of times back to back. I can't endorse it any stronger. I think it's a vital read I think we should be teaching the in the joint professional to education system across the board at every level of that of that of that system of education and leader preparation and I think every American particularly in the condition state we're in today. It should be must must read and we need to get the book mobiles of our 70s when we were growing up back on the street and bring everybody in and give them cookies and milk and and we have a broader more comprehensive coverage of history, but one of those reviews. The reviewer made this point. She said that, and I'll quote few others could few others could write this book with such sterling credibility and I think that's exactly right. I'll quote only a man of the south of Virginia and a soldier with a PhD in history could so persuasively mount the case against a national hero and label him a traitor. And then I'll add my own point for my notes boom there it is I mean I think that covers the gamut. I guess my question to you is. You looked at if you looked at an individual with all the other attributes that the reviewer laid out a Virginia man of the South soldier with PhD in history, but it was a black man or woman. Yeah, could that person be equally could they make equally make this case. And with the same stick and stickiness and with the same resonance what are your thoughts on that and what it might mean to be on what direction you go with your answer I think. I think racism is the virus in the American dirt. It is infects everything and everybody in in our country it's it's our eternal pandemic and it's not just a southern phenomenon. It goes from C to shining C, and you can look at housing covenants and policies for the VA and the FHA and redlining and and and segregation in school districts and and it's racism is everywhere so my answer is, is that because I'm a privileged white male that was in a position of power, and because through the uniform that I have a platform that is absolutely more important than if I was a black man or especially a black woman writing this, it's absolutely true I would not have the same a cache. I wouldn't have I would have been ignored far more. And it would not have resonated at nearly as much so I am absolutely it's a great question. I, by the way it's a great question, because I do feel this, this compel and compelled to tell the story, but I also realize that there's a privilege in just me being the story. So it's, it doesn't mean I'm going to stop because I don't I don't really have a another way of getting at it other than through my but that's the other thing is, I got to tell my story. I can't tell your story. I can't tell another a black man so I don't know what that's like to do that. I do know though that so I'm probably the person who's written the most on the black experience in the 20th century at West Point. I wrote, I've written several written about the only person to read about right about the slave experience at West Point. Don't know what the black experience is, but history can allow us to get these stories out, and then we can use storytelling to do it as well. So it's a great question. I'm absolutely privileged because of my, my, this color of my skin and the position of power I was in. I'm privileged, certainly, but I would say you're also representing you know that duty on our country thing. Right. And I mean you seem to, it's clear you approach this from a sense of duty as well and I think that's, I think we can't, you know, let me embarrass you for a moment. We can't, we can't discount that it's an especially important and vitally essential aspect of the American experience in our contemporary moment. Going for it. I'm going to ask you one more question it's going to be a contemporary one because I want to give you an opportunity to speak to it, and it speaks to the the lost cost statues and memorials that you talked about clearly in the book to detail, and you gave a great summary of it in your presentation. You know, much of the lost cost statues and memorials as you educated on under consideration of being removed now or in some cases already removed were erected well after the Civil War, demonstrating just how powerful narratives can be even long after that experience those times of long past right is removing all of these statues the right answer. And how do we use these statues to objectively embrace our past and not perpetuate revisionist history. What are your thoughts on that. Well, I think I am a revisionist history I'm all history really is a revision but I would say that that in giving an example in Hungary. What they did was they took all statues of marks linen and Ingalls, and they put them in a and Stalin and they put them in one park in outside Budapest. We can't do that because we're a decentralized system we have state local governments we have private property we all these. So every community is going to have to look at its statue and say does this represent our values today. So why was it put up. And what's the context for it. What was the speech that was given at its dedication, and they're going to have to look and see the and see what that is and there isn't a one size fits all solution. Personally, I hope that in Richmond would choose when they take down that statue of Lee, that they leave the base up with that wonderful graffiti. I think that is beautiful, and now we've created a new artwork that is based on that. But our value who we honor isn't our history. So we can still study Lee in the Civil War without honoring him today because he doesn't represent our value at least he doesn't represent my values. I don't think he represents the values of the United States Army, the most diverse workplace in the country. Fort Lee is is home to the US Army logisticians the finest logisticians in the history of the world, and they're at 50% African American and their home bases named after an enslaver who fought for enslavement. That isn't the way we should work. So every state every state every city every locales should make their own decision, but understand the message you are sending and who we have so many American heroes so many patriots in this country. Honor the people that fought for this country, not against it. I believe I got this right but you've written you wrote it, at least one op ed, really laying out you're right on the leading edge of this conversation of whether to go into the NDAA the National Defense Authorization Act with the move of, you know, decommissioning renaming military post in bases named after Confederate generals treasonous generals. And I think there's at least one op ed you wrote out there that you actually went in identified particular folks you showed me you showed us some great example examples of exemplars for the change but I think I know you had some thoughts on grant again. So particular posts that would be appropriate for particular individuals just want to give you a couple minutes to maybe share some of those so we have those in our mind in our mind. Yeah, well, the, the one that a lot of people don't realize Fort Belvoir which is in, you know, in northern Virginia was first named for a civil war general named Henry's great engineer was at Gettysburg, Fredericksburg Appomattox, and it was changed in 1935 to named after an enslaved slave plant and enslaved labor farm a plantation that burned to the ground in 1783, renamed in 1935 as a as a to appease a Southern segregationist plantation. And it was Belvoir is the name of that slave plantation, and it was owned by a loyalist to the Brits, and that Brit loyalist Lord Fairfax. Actually, he wrote in his log book in his sort of account book that he raped enslaved women. So we may rename the 1935 took it from a great person to the name of a slave plantation. So I said grant the greatest soldier that ever that ever wore army blue, but I'll tell you there I came up with 10 name 11 names because I want to make sure I got Belvoir. So thanks for saying that because we got to change Belvoir to not many people are looking at that. But, but I put a lot of names, but there are so many different names are hundreds of names, and it should be a political decision when this commission needs. It's a political decision to name them it'll be a political decision to unname the reason why the army is changing now is because our political bosses are forcing us to change. And that's the way change has always happened in the US Army. The only way we change is when our political bosses forces to integration, co education, bringing women into combat arms, transgender gay. And we can't change ourselves. We do, we must have politicians do it, and they are leading us now, and I couldn't be happier about that. Hi. I'm probably breaking lots of book moderating talk review points here, but I want to show your book. And I want to show right next to it to your last point of change comes in the wake of shock in shocks not enough. It's leaders that take charge and lead the way. And I'm just, you know, as I was reading. You know, to secure these rights is another is another to secure these rights the report of the President Harry S Truman's Committee on Civil Rights Commission 1946 a year later, 47 report comes out. A year later, the executive order for desegregation of the armed services not an act necessarily of altruism, but an act of necessity and an imperative in the shock to the nation that you know we've reached across roads and can't we still have choice of going the wrong direction but there's going to be a lot of pain suffering. If we if we don't do that. So, to your just to your point, I want to, I want to open it up. I've extended my moderator privilege to the to the Hill here. Let's open it up we've got a great set of questions already built so Tyler me just team up for you. Awesome. You're going to be yourself and the person I love you're going to be a you'll give it give it to a straightened and handed and provocative. Yeah, I'm a punch in the nose I armor officer you know I armor officer. We go straight ahead. And stuff. Put the save around right forward. So let's start with this one. What was the pivotal point where you knew you had to confront these myths, myths, having believed them. Why did you feel the need to speak out about it. I think that there was a time at West Point, after I already figured out that I was wrong and I done all this research. When we start we create this new Memorial room, and it was in column hall, and we were I was a. This is after the we lost like 100 graduates killed at West Point in the war since 911 and we had no singular place that those names from the war 1812 through the 1912 era came and my committee that I've had the memorialization committee came up with this idea to repurpose a room and in her in column hall and rename and put all these names in there, but which name should go in. And in particular should the Confederate names go in. And I argued, like I did just now, strongly, I mean just like I do now I'm over a convert seal passion to the academic board that we should not put them in because they fought for against their country, and I lost the superintendent at the time said no we have to bring people together we don't want to be like the Sunni in the Shia historian in me like terrible analogy boss, terrible analogy boss. So, somebody, not me told a black graduate of West Point and he did a FOIA request, and all of a sudden man all his heat went on me, they said tie, you know, and I kept, I argued, I kept arguing the same thing. I went home after I lost the initial, initial round of voting, and I told my wife I said, Hey, nobody believes me you know I've given them all these facts and they're not believe it and they said tie, she said to me tie, you're hiding your background. Nobody understands why this is so important to you. So then I started that after that telling my story and what I realized is by being a little vulnerable myself, telling them that I would like this to that I was more likely to convince people, rather than just being a high and mighty historian bludgeoning them with facts, I could tell them my own story, and my own story was more effective in in getting people to recognize the facts. That's terrific we've got a couple of questions directly back to the naming basis. I'm going to, I'm going to ask those in in a in sequence here. How did naming bases in the south that their Confederate generals further the segregation is cause. I was led to believe that since the large portion of our enlistees come from the south that the naming protocol lent to attracting southerners. That's true. So the first world was different in each war in World War One, the way the manning policy went is that they created divisions from localities. So for instance, the 29th division, the blue and gray division went down to Alabama to train. They were from Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey. And so they named the post George McClellan for McClellan is still there to this day. And so they named them after these different people, depending on who was training there. And in World War Two, they did it a more centralized, they did it as it came along and in fact Omar Bradley was crucial in the name some of these names coming forward. The reason that they named them only after these Confederates is for two reasons. The first is, it was the thought was to bring America back together after the bloodletting of the Civil War, blue and gray Johnny Rev and Billy Yang, Grant and Lee, all of it was equal. Let's highlight the martial valor of bringing us together. But we got to remember that bringing who we brought together was white America at the expense of black America, because we were segregated a white supremacist army and and society during that time. So that's not true. And now, the reason most of them are in the south today is because through various base closings that we really have these major bases in the south and not in the north but I will tell you, one of the bases that we closed at right after World War Two was in Fort Nathan Bedford Forest in Tennessee, named after the founder of the Ku Klux Klan, slaughter of black troops at Fort Pillow, and a terrible slave trader before the war. So that's who we named him because he was the hero of white Tennesseans. So it was more about local political appeasement than it was about where the troops are coming from, especially in World War Two. Here's another one for you Ty. Similar vein, ladies and gents as a West Point graduate and current army officer. I would offer up the suggestion that we perhaps avoid replacing names of sinful humans with other sinful people, even if they are people of honor recipients, and perhaps replace them with something like battles victories, or values we hold dear Gettysburg Normandy sacrifice courage etc. I believe history always provides those in the future to dig up dirt on any human that we that can erode the value of a name what are your thoughts on that tie interesting interesting point. And I think that the commission will look at that carefully. I do think that that we end up naming things that that matter to us today. Remember that a monument or a memorial tells you about who named it, not who is named. So that's really the thing that we should understand. And listen, I mean, there be interesting to see if somebody eventually we go after for Carson kick Carson was a slaughtered a heck of a lot of indigenous and Native Americans. There is a lot. There are other pieces to think about for for me now it comes down to basically did you fight for your country, or did you fight to destroy your country. And for me anyway right now that's the way to look at it. And I think that we are we are getting. There's nothing wrong with us having heroes and heroes are flawed there's no doubt about it, but I mean a guy like Ted Rubin or how and cash or a Vernon Baker, Mary Walker, all these metal honor winners who fought for their country I think that they're they're people that we could find, but we do need to vet them carefully and I think the commission will do that well, but I think it's a fair point to think of the Navy does that they name it after, after a place not a person. It just it just resident what you just laid out in terms of your, your, your thoughts on that on that statement that insight tie. It reminds me of a of a Thomas Jefferson statement, I can't remember during the where during the, the debates leading up to the to the declaration of independence and the war that that was already a little boldly after that, where he made the point that who are we it may have been after the war actually prior to going into the Constitution, that you know his concerns of, of holding sacrosanct, the very Constitution that they were thinking about holding, you know who are we to write the future generations and he was somewhat of at least implying that of a cyclical revisit, at least, right, maybe ever generation I think he even put you know every 25 years or so, is there something similar that we should be thinking about here in terms of the generalization general like generationally as a cycle, at least the coming back to a small sea constitutional reconsideration or reconsideration or a constitution of American self. Yeah, these are great point I great point I mean here's what here's an example that at for those of us have been at West Point, on the level of the plane. There's only that there are two monuments that have not been either modified or moved, and there's there's must be a dozen of them there, and have been over the course two dozen of them, and yet only two of them. And one of his grant which was just put in last year. And the other one is Eisenhower, which was put in 1982, the older ones have all been modified or moved every single one of them, because new new times come in the date monument to the to the ones that were killed in the 1834. It was 1830 nobody cared anymore until they moved it to the cemetery. There was a cadet memorial move to the cemetery. They are moved around the statue of Washington moved around the statue from a car that was modified the stat battle mine was our huge one that didn't have the original fact. The original statue on there, the original statue on battle mine is a 70 foot statue with a female figure. And what it said the first one that happened one of the professors looked at the original one and said, Oh no it will not do because her gown clings too tightly to the junction of her legs and it will greatly fire up the young cadets too much. We brought this statue that was 70 feet up in the air and melted it down and put up a more chased replacement. So yes, we are always changing who we memorialize and just like we're always changing our history. That's fine. And that's why don't be so don't worry about we're going to change this to our values and just as you said I, if they need to change it again in 50 years. What about brother, change him away. The, the act of changing or reconsidering more important than what the change comes out, if any, the act of remembrance right and really resonates with me maybe that you know the three hours, not reading writing and arithmetic but remembrance, meaning tie that you bring forward to us as essential ingredients on this path towards some type of reconciliation and the American sense to back on the path towards a more perfect union, maybe no guarantee of ever arriving there. Maybe we never want to because at any given time it might come at the expense of a majority minority of us. I just want to state that upfront because I love the fact I, I don't know if it was planned or Providence maybe a little bit of both but the fact that we're doing this on Holocaust remembrance day. I think that's very important to state out front and part of part of the thing of our own remembrance reckoning and towards reconciliation going forward. Here's another question for you. A huge part of America that believes Confederacy and white supremacy is the only way to stay true to America. A level of radicalization one cannot comprehend comprehend how do we get over this division, especially when people don't care to be educated. Now I think I mean it does go back to our education and it goes to people telling the truth and telling the facts and we're not going to get everybody we've never gotten everybody. There is always been whenever there is a period of particularly a period where equality gets greater. There has been a white backlash against it every single time. We've got to work on that, and I don't have any singular answer other than more truth, more facts, and more education I am heartened that my children did not get this in school and certainly, you know with me around they got it that would have been would have been really good either, but they didn't get that. So I do think that that there is a need for for more education better education, but we're not going to get this we are. We're a violent country, a political violence is Apple as is American is apple pie has always been violent and it's usually been violent against minority groups that are that are that are arguing for equal rights. We have always been that way and I think that's understanding that is is certainly a way forward, but I also take hope. I take hope from from from Barack Obama from from Kamala Harris from from my gosh if you had told me that we would have elected a black preacher from Georgia. Last, any time in my life I was in Georgia, they change in 1956, the Confederate flag to the I mean the Georgia flag to the Confederate flag in 1956. I went to school at a segregation Academy in Georgia. I mean that 400 of these schools popped up in 1969 to 71. So the fact that we that we did actually elect and a Jewish man remember there was a Jewish man lynch for a crime he did not commit in Leo Frank in in the team in the 19 teens in Georgia so I think there is hope, but boy, it's going to require a lot more work. I mean we're we're toward a more perfect union I just as you said. I'm so glad you talked about your kids tie, you know, and that that's where our hope. That's why we, that's why we here we are that's why we teach right. Not just for our kids our own kids it begins there but you know, posterity, you know as john Adams talked about. I just wanted to make sure that what we do, what we've done was worth it. But that's for another another day and another story. But what you do remind me of I mean you have a very positive story I'm going to stick with that one but I can't, I can't not mention. This a few years back short years back when my, my daughter was, she was a junior in high school at the time and she always hides her books for me. And you probably have this experience as well. I because as soon as I get a hold of the book I dig into it and then they come in for an extra evening lecture to dissect what you know what they're reading why they have the textbooks they have, but on this one occasion. It was on the steps and I got a hold of it. And inside that textbook I mean this is this is no less than four or five years ago on an inset in the in the US government book that talks about American slavery and slaves as quote unquote guest workers. Oh my God, an inset in the chapter of the textbook. This is this is less than a half decade ago so you know again towards more perfect union. Not perfectly progressing small P for you know examples of lynch lynchings very proximate to ourselves we're not to reach back to the, to the 19 teens to have examples late 1990s 2000s lynchings. That's for Texas comes my I was living there at the time let me let me get to another question here for you. This one's going to get us back to a bit, it's going to let you stretch out your history, your historian feathers here so I'm going to give this to you during the first session convention in February 1861 Virginia voted to remain in the union. Just later after the firing on Fort Sumter and Charleston and Lincoln's call for 75,090 day volunteers to press the rebellion. The Virginia delegates voted a second time for succession. If Virginia had voted again to remain in the union in April 1861 instead of leaving. Do you believe Lee would have remained loyal to the union. Oh, yeah there's a there's a lot of, I mean that that's a lot of what ifs I don't know if I'm comfortable saying that many what ifs. I do say, though, that when succession was was voted on. It was the first that it that in Virginia that that lead did not wait until the referendum, which was done in May of 1863 he left in March. He as soon as the how as the memory had to be. So there was a vote in the sort of General Assembly in Virginia that said to leave after Fort Sumter. But remember that the violence that was created there was done by South Carolina and the Confederacy was already done by the Confederacy. So you were the one that started the violence. And if Lincoln had not called up volunteers that basically you would have said that by and then already violently taken a bunch of other US ports. So I think one I don't blame either Lincoln for calling up volunteers. And in fact, Virginia or the South had already called up volunteers before that had ever happened. So they were hell bent on war and I think we should remember that. We should also remember that Lee, what Lee chose when he chose treason. There were many other Virginians that did not he was the largest enslaver among people in the army, and he did and many of his family members did not choose treason stayed with the United States and and most of the other ones that did finally go waited until after he died. So he and when he did resign, he didn't wait until the paperwork had passed through the War Department. It was supposed to take 30 days only took three days, but he still wouldn't he waited less than 36 hours before he took the train to Richmond to accept the and the Virginia Army so I don't know what Lee would have done then I do know that his undying belief in human enslavement meant that he never thought that that slavery should go away. Incredible incredible. Here's another one for you. Unfortunately, it seems that the US armed forces have members current informer who are susceptible to the rising trend of white supremacist violence, violence in this country. For example, we saw some bets take part in the January 6 insurrection of the capital. How should the army approach recruitment and training for its members particularly for those recruits who do not go, who do not go into, I'm assuming into US military institutions with such comprehensive history courses like West Point. What responsibility does the US military have today and countering white supremacist violence. We do absolutely have a have a responsibility and so I think there are a couple things to do. One, we need to ferret it out and there needs to be go in and look and make sure that there is no one that is in the US army or military that is doing this and if they are to to to to prosecute them. Now, among the 18 million veterans harder to figure out how to do that I'm not sure that's the military's job is to upon the veterans, but for those in the military, absolutely. The second thing is, is, I don't think that we talk about the history of our forces enough. So we often have we have black history month Martin Luther King birthday, but and those are mainly about uplift as well they should be, but we don't train in, we don't educate either basic training or an officer education is why do we need to talk about those first the first African who were able to went in, we have to do the reason they did it is because of white supremacy white segregation, a racist policies, and that I think is what we don't talk about. And so I do think that in basic and others that there does need to be training about an education that if you think about the Marine Corps, they're great about a culture of talking about the way the Marine Corps was formed, but they don't talk about the policies of the Marine Corps that led it to racist policies throughout most of its history, most of its history. So I do think that that that our troops are not going to understand this unless unless they have that so the American our military is a reflection of society, and we have racism in our society we're going to have racism in the military, but the military has a great need to stamp that out and our politicians have to demand it of the military or we will not do a good enough job of it. Ty, one of the things I loved about your book in the education that it the learning experience that walks us all through the most, and you spoke to it again in your in your answer here a second ago and earlier in our conversation. What I love the most about it maybe it's because I'm a political scientist right your history I'm a political scientist so I'm always looking for, you know, correlation causation understanding the two are not the same, but you do a brilliant job of telling you know chronicling a history, a small progressive history, progression of history that makes clear that their history doesn't rhyme, it doesn't repeat itself. Sometimes maybe we do particularly we don't know history, and there might be a rhythm to it and there's, there's a clear, at least undertone. There's a clear undertone with with you, my friend Ty. This cycle right of positive correlation a political scientist might call it of, you know, every time you see a progressive move forward in fuller integration a culturation. You see a. I'll call it a white lash. Yeah, right. Institutionally culturally. This is the perspective of the last three weeks, maybe the last certainly the last year, maybe the last four, five years. Thoughts on that cycle cycle continues cycle running. Yeah, and I'm as a story I'm not a cycle guy and I'm not that that's not the way we think, but but but if you look at it and you just look at the history of it if you look at the cycle reconstruction and then the segregation and violent and the violence that came after that I agree with you because what it says more than anything to me is there is a it's about power, and that's about the politics and power and every time that there is a movement toward more equality. And that white lash is about political power and because white supremacy racism, inequality is all about maintaining political power for one group over another group. So I think you're right I mean you can, and we can look at the reaction to Obama we can look at the reaction to, to the civil rights movement. We can look at the reaction to reconstruction. So, I think that's absolutely I think it's true. And the idea of how do we stop that white backlash. I think if I could figure that out man I would I would be I would be all over it I have not figured that one out. No that's great. Thanks. Thanks for that tie. Let me ask you one more here. Let's see. Some schools specifically in the state of Arizona require parents to sign a permission slip for students to learn about slavery. Huh. If we are limiting knowledge on how history on how history is I'm assuming is taught. How do we intend to grow past it. Yes, I think there has been some of where where teachers have got in trouble for for trying to do experiential learning by creating a slave market. So they have seen that where you know they put people, particularly people of color in sort of on a slave market to show the way that went, and that has been traumatic. And this is why teaching slavery is hard and I think it's the Southern Poverty Law Center or the Equal Justice Initiative, both in Alabama have come up with ways of hard history on how to teach hard history. But we of course we have to do this and part of the reason is it's fascinating. I mean, the thing is that if you talk about these issues that make us Americans. Students love to love. They love grappling with it, but it does require teachers to have an understanding of what that is so I'm certainly not in favor of meeting this, but what has happened probably and I don't know this particular case but I do know other cases where teachers get in trouble for trying to do experiential learning, particularly with slavery, and that gets them out over their skis in areas that they're not qualified to do. But are we should we talk about the horrors of enslavement of the slave era of the grape of torture of mutilation of selling families apart for profit. Absolutely. That's great. One more for you quickly tie. So we have the first African American Secretary of Defense in our history. And last year we had the first African American member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Chief of Staff of the Air Force, General CQ Brown. If you were approached by Secretary awesome how best to address racism and extremism in the ranks. What would you recommend and how does the reconciliation with our history telegraph away forward. Yeah, well, let me so I got to tell about Secretary Austin first, who graduated from West Point in I think 1975, and I wrote a long article and I've written several things about the black power movement at West Point. And what happened was Nixon came to West Point in 1971, doing the Southern strategy which is to turn the South Republican, and he ordered the superintendent to put a Confederate monument on trophy point. And he did this, the superintendent at the time, guy named Nolton brilliant man told the senior, the senior black cadet every time commander Percy squire about this, and Percy, and the entire all the black students black cadets there wrote a manifesto listing all their demands that's where we get Buffalo soldier field that afros go from here to here. I mean it's an amazing thing, but one of those cadets assigned the manifesto that was as one of the, and I'm quoting here from my friend Percy squire who led this, he said, Lloyd Austin was a righteous brother. And, and, and, and, and Austin's how it's her quote that's the yearbook, I can know the yearbook. Yeah, his quote was from Nina Simone, young gifted and black. Oh, that's brilliant. Brilliant that wonderful. And he's got an afro out to here. So the idea first that all military people are alike is just not Michael Flynn and Lloyd Austin. I mean my hands can't get further apart than that. I'll add punchy and we still can't get far enough apart. I think yours and Florida mine in New York. If we put it together, we still can't get far. So I think that that Secretary Austin is on the right path of forcing of looking and holding people account for racism in the ranks and but this is a hard problem. One of the problems is, is that if you look at our logistics the finance logistics in is 50% African American infantry is vanishingly small numbers of black officers and even black troops in the infantry branch, and it's the same for pilots in in both of the Navy and in the Air Force so there's a lot of work that we have to do to figure this out and it's not it's not a simple one to figure out but finding white supremacy in the ranks that has to be something that we get after and we need to put people that have those views out of the military as soon as possible. We cannot stand anybody who does not have the values of the United States of America. We are, we are a great army, because we represent a great country and if we represent the, if we don't represent that, you don't deserve to be in uniform it's a privilege to be in uniform. It is not. So too many veterans and too many people in service think that the nation owes us no, it's a privilege for me to serve as long as I did. Time my friend Dr said really let me let me just close the session or begin the closed session by first thanking you for your talk and your offerings and for being with all of us today. When the debate over the Union Army seizure of Arlington right, Robert E. Lee's 1100 acre estate across the Potomac from Washington, Washington DC. When I reached the US Senate, there was a Senator Charles Sumner, who led the anti slavery forces in the Senate, who railed against the slave holding Confederate General Lee by saying this quote, I hand him over to the avenging pin of history. And you have wielded that avenging angels pin brilliantly, and with great intellectual and personal courage so Bravo my friend in duty well done. And I'm going to give you the final word but before I do just a word of thanks to all the participants to new American for into St. Martin's press. And again to all of you the audience for participating, the good trouble still trouble still awaits and continues and my friend. Sir, Ty Sedgley final words to you. Well, I have two things to say the first is that, as James Baldwin once said, if I'm paraphrasing here if you love your country, you must criticize her ruthlessly. If you love your country that's what real patriots do. So I love my country you love your country, criticizing it does not mean you don't love it. And the second thing is I thank you so much for preparing so well for this talk I can really I mean, you really really got everything you could out of me and out of this book, and I, and I, and I so appreciate the real care that you took magnificent job. And for everyone in New America. Thank you for doing this and for everybody that came from wherever you happen to come. Thank you for listening to me and for for joining me in my own journey. And as we try to make our nation more just at least that's what I'm trying to do. Thank you very much.