 Good morning everybody sorry for the late start, but I understand we had a metro complications But I want to welcome everybody here This will be the best day of traffic so far So so celebrate that and I also want to welcome you to the US Institute of Peace on International Peace Day My name is Nancy Lindborg We are celebrating our 30th year at USIP this year. It's also 30 years ago that International peace day was established so one starts to think about what was going on 30 years ago that there was this big push to elevate and amplify the whole notion and idea of peace and It's I think an important moment for us all to to stop in and think about that and reflect upon that as we're seeing You know a world that has this sense of increased crisis around the world and conflicts that are dominating the headlines and Without question there has been an uptick in conflict over the last decade but it's against a backdrop of greater peace and one of the things that we're hoping to really Look at through the international day of peace today is the fact that the majority of the world wakes up every day and is peaceful and Does things that make their families their communities in their countries safer? And so we've launched the peace day challenge and we urge you before you leave today if you haven't already To go online hashtag peace day channel or WWW peace day channel challenge. Excuse me peace day challenge Or and post your commitment. What is it that you are doing? Every day that contributes to a more peaceful world because sometimes we get caught up in the headlines And as we look at where is that uptick in conflict? Where's the sense of rising conflict happening? More and more it's happening in countries that we think of as fragile as either weak with weak governments that can't serve the needs of their people or illegitimate in the eyes of their citizens and if you look at the the flood of Refugees coming out of the Middle East most of those people are coming from countries that are Fragile they're either ineffective or their illegitimate and we see that through that swath of Africa And Central Asia that's also contributing to the refugee flows Yemen Eritrea Afghanistan and then the additional conflicts where people aren't able to get out Central Africa Republic South Sudan When we look at fragility when we look at countries that are trapped in those spin cycles of conflict We understand that key for moving out of these conflicts is this whole notion of reconciliation And in one of the really interesting frameworks that has emerged the fragile states G7 plus group that has put forward the new deal for engagement in fragile states They talk about reconciliation as one of the critical steps for moving out of conflict and so What we would like to do today, and we're so pleased to have all you here with us is really pro more deeply This notion of reconciliation. What is it? How does it work? How do we ensure that it's not back-firing and I'm pleased to have with me today for my colleagues who have really put a lot of their career energy Inquiry and expertise into this topic and we have with us First of all so I'll introduce all of them and then we'll go into a lively conversation to which we will invite you to participate Lily Cole who is the senior program officer in our Center for Applied Research on Conflict where Lily conducts research and analysis on post-conflict reconciliation practices And she's looked at how reconciliation and related Concepts can really be put to practice in the field. She manages our fellowship programs She's done a lot of writings which you can find on our web and Looked at human rights historical memory and justice following Violent conflict. She's also been at the Asia Society at the Carnegie Council and Columbia University So Lily's one of our in-house experts on reconciliation We also have with us a Jenny Bouvier who's our senior advisor for inclusive peace processes and our resident guru on the Columbia peace process Jenny has been here since 2006 where she's worked on the Columbia peace process and We'll have a lot to say about that I really don't know anyone who's more knowledgeable than she is and has worked harder on trying to make that a Successful inclusive peace process previously she was at the University of Maryland as a professor on Latin American literature and Also with Wola and a whole host of organizations where her expertise on these issues has been An important feature of her career We also have Sarhan Hamasayid who's our senior program officer for the Middle East and North Africa programs at USIP He's been with us since February 2011 and is the key person on moving forward our Iraq programs He's done extensive Analysis and writing on Iraq and having just returned from Iraq a couple of days ago I can tell you reconciliation is one of the critical features of the dialogue there right now and I look forward to hearing what Sarhan can tell us more about that With his long experience Finally, we have Susan Hayward the director of religion and peace building Susan directs USIP's efforts To advance conflict prevention resolution and reconciliation projects in the religious sector She has for the last four years Moved forward our overall programming in Myanmar, Burma and Since 2007 here at USIP. She's focused on Columbia Iraq Burma Sri Lanka all places with enormous needs for reconciliation and looking at how The faith community is a part of that She's been coordinating an initiative looking at the intersection of women religion and conflict and peace building in partnership with the Berkeley Center at Georgetown and the World Faiths Development Dialogue and Because I know she won't I'm gonna hold up. She's a brand new book women religious and peace religion and peace building Suzie you'll tell people how they can get a copy of this. It's a it's a great book It's what? Amazon.com. It's a wonderful look at how women religion and peace building intersect So please help join me in welcoming the panel We'll start with a few questions and then we will be taking questions both from the audience and from those who are watching online So get your get your thoughts ready But Lily I want to start with you and then I may go down the table and ask everybody to chime in on this because We hear a lot about reconciliation. It's one of those words that gets thrown around And yet it has a lot of different meanings depending on who is saying the word and It has resonance that can be enormously positive or it can also Feel to those who have suffered great injustice like their voice isn't being heard But Lily you've done a lot of writing on that. Why don't you start us off with how? How should we develop a common understanding of reconciliation? Well, I think perhaps the answer is that we may not be able to it may be very dependent on context And certainly the definitions really have to be probed to make sure that they're not imposed from the top and I think we might follow some very Powerful recent studies that have tried to develop indicators really from the bottom up Asking finding methodologies to ask ask local people themselves how they define Reconciliation there's quite an interesting one going on right now for peace indicators the everyday peace indicators project, and we're going to have one of the main Investigators working with us as a fellow actually on exactly that project to try to define Help people define the term themselves for the particular Context that they have all these contexts are quite different and the word reconciliation is considered many parts We're very loaded very Western and very Christian and in some places. It's very popular and some people actually have other conceptions Can can you or really can any of our panelists give us an example? Maybe just to ground the conversation of where reconciliation has been not received well because it has You know come in from outside the peace process or in the post-conflict environment I'll just say quickly because and I think the word should should go Actually to Jenny one of the places where I think of that it was not popular at all is a lot of Latin America especially the Southern Cone where it meant compromise and avoidance of justice and There's a very strong discourse of justice and it may be one reason why in the study We did we did not get a lot of response to our call for projects Which we did a mapping of projects around the world that are intended to further reconciliation We didn't get much of a response from Latin America and part of that could be that the word itself is not what people would be Using but I think my understanding is with them Colombia There's actually a change in the approach to that term itself. Ginny. I Think that's right. I think about Argentina if you had brought up the idea of reconciliation with Argentines who had suffered under a dick military dictatorship for so many years They would understand it as what they would say Borroni cuenta nueva, you know Let's turn the page and forget about the past nobody's judge no accountability How can how can you reconcile? When there is no truth being told and there's no no justice for it in in Columbia. It's been very surprising to me to watch the the growing Embrace of reconciliation as a concept. I remember probably in 2007 or eight going down And we were support supporting a project in a place called Arauca and we were supporting an international Congress on Reconciliation it was the first one ever the term was very new We had been supporting some citizen commissions on reconciliation to create dialogues about what does reconciliation even mean because it was so It was so unclear It was a it was just a concept that was out there and people were trying to really ground it And at this international Congress on reconciliation I remember somebody getting up and saying well, you can't have peace without reconciliation And I thought now this turns everything that I've understood from the international world's vision of Reconciliation on its head because ordinarily you think about peacekeeping troops going in you know kind of Stabilizing an area then you think of a peacemaking process of a peace process taking place Then peace is supposed to come and then reconciliation comes after the construction of peace of peace But here my colleagues in Columbia were saying well We can't even think about a peace process until we have reconciliation and this really I think people were starting to see that in the midst of war and I think this is one of the big differences with Columbia You have people talking about reconciliation while the war is still going on. Yes There's a peace process in Havana that's been going on for almost three years But the fact is that the war is still very much present in many communities the deaths are still happening There's still a climate of intimidation people are still fearful of speaking out and talking about what happened But they're struggling somehow they recognize that years of war has really broken a lot of relationships And they're struggling to reconnect with neighbors reconnect with churches Establish establish organizations after a period where social or being a social leader is a real risk People are killed for being human rights defenders. They're killed for being affiliated with human rights defenders So I think the idea of talking about reconciliation is also an effort for civil society to kind of get its own Get its own soul back They're really looking for a way to be human in the midst of war and I think for many people Without defining precisely what it means. It's it's a struggle to find wholeness within a broken society I want to jump to Susan. I'll come back to you sir. Hong because there is a quote in your book Where someone talks about helping both the victim and the victimizer rediscover their humanity as a part of this process And so I wonder just keen off of what Jenny said if you could comment a little bit more about how you see religion and some of these faith concepts Plane a role in in bridging into the reckon a reconciliation process Yeah, I mean just in terms of the ideas. I think the term itself reconciliation as Lily alluded to is a term that is sort of rife with a lot of Christian especially Judeo-Christian theological understanding so to the idea of reconciling people who have caused harm to one another It it alludes to as well the idea of reconciling one to God that is a central part of the understanding of what the very work of faith is and so these ideas permeate even the institutional processes that have developed over time about how reconciliation is advanced to the idea that the the sort of normative reconciliation process within the international systems, especially having come out of the the process in South Africa, which was of course led by Desmond Tutu had a very religious overtone to it focuses on this idea of acknowledgment of apology of Confession of truth-telling of Forgiveness and of moving forward and these are of course This is a religious process in some ways And so I think that there are very real ways in which religious ideas and religious concepts have shaped our understanding of what is necessary and in ways that that may become out of the Judeo-Christian process and one thing that I've heard especially in Sri Lanka for example is a lot of resistance to Reconciliation Precisely because it's seen as a very Judeo-Christian term and the ways in which it's been defined internationally The process and the mechanisms for it are seen to reflect some of those Judeo-Christian understandings of what's necessary in order to reconcile people to one another in the aftermath of violent conflict and so there's been some really robust discussions amongst the Buddhist community there about what reconciliation means within Buddhist frames and about what Buddhist scriptures and teachings have to offer about What's necessary in the aftermath of suffering caused between individuals between groups between the state and communities in order to restore right relationships and Interesting that you bring up Sri Lanka and and the Judeo-Christian framing because Sarhang in Iraq Which is yet another faith tradition Muslim Among with many others with the mosaic of minorities there But reconciliation is is being talked about at almost every level based on my recent visit there How is that word understood and how do you see those processes playing out in a country? That's torn apart with conflicts in many directions Thank you. I think the definition of reconciliation in Iraq is probably one of the Problems where there isn't disagreement. There is no it everybody understands Reconciliation to mean different things and the elements that affect that in for interpretation. It has historic roots. It has religious roots not as in the interpretation of the religion as much as sectarian powers in the region Influencing that understanding and then there is that the ethnic dimensions of it whether you look at it from Kurds Arab or Iranian Persian Arab and if you take it into the context of Iraq today Most most of the people talk about it in the terms of the political reconciliation national reconciliation and by that It's it's in more even though Nobody gave it a definition If you really look into that how well, what is the what how do the different components of Iraq coexist with each other in peace and that formula Has not quite come into place because there is a lot of mistrust between the different groups There are some of it are historic. Some of it are new Matters that have complicated new tensions, but whether economic or political so today when you talk about reconciliation At the very national level people are still struggling with the very existential questions of Iraq How do the different communities in Iraq can coexist with each other? And that formula has not been found this it has been more complicated recently by the conflict with with ISIS with Daesh because It changed the meaning of reconciliation at the local level when with them taking different parts of Iraq and different people On the different communities siding with one side of the conflict either siding with ISIS or siding with the government or not siding with anyone just leaving their places of origin Has changed the meaning of reconciliation? Who do you reconcile with and what does that mean? What what's the point of time that you return back to for those who have have lost people in this conflict? Then the name the meaning of reconciliation has changed from the national coexistence of the different communities into actually Coexistence with their very your very neighbor that some of them especially the minorities accused of being Participants in some of the crimes that have been perpetrated against them So definition is important Which point of time do you get back to is important because for example? Those who have had seen a lot of atrocities at the hand of the bath party under Saddam Hussein for them It could Immediately trigger anger and say okay Do you want me to reconcile with somebody who has had blood on his hand killed my relatives for the minorities in Iraq today? Would they would say do you want me to reconcile with somebody who's affiliated with ISIS and? And has blood on his hand so it's very very complex a complex Thanks, sir hung and you know it really underscores the tension of the relationship between the notion of reconciliation and one of accountability and justice on the one hand and Forgiveness on the other hand, and I'll ask anyone who wants to respond to that have we seen processes that have straddled Those tensions in a way that enables Everybody to move forward with both forgiveness and accountability as a part of a reconciliation process Well, I think that's what the Colombians are trying to do now whether they're able to do it or not We'll see about a little over a year ago There was a declaration on principles regarding victims that was signed by both the FARC and the Colombian government at the peace table And this was a very interesting document that I think is a kind of model for How to deal with victims it talked about it had ten principles the first principle is you have to recognize the victims and this has actually ended up being a very hard thing to do because Everyone has a different idea of who has been victimized and what exactly the conflict is and when it started and who's at fault So it's not only recognizing the victims but recognizing Responsibility for victimization and then I think there's a very strong and powerful Discourse about satisfying the needs of the victim satisfying the rights of the victims Not just the needs of the victims the rights of the victims to truth justice reparations and guarantees of non repetition and I think many of the Reconciliation projects that you see going on around Columbia and there are not that many I mean this is this is kind of a new and emerging field in some ways But I think many of these projects are geared toward understanding What would satisfy the victims victims rights to truth especially and I think there you have all the historical memory projects that come in But also to justice and reparations and how do you guarantee non repetition? And I think there's kind of a sense that if you fulfill these other rights and you fulfill the human rights of victims and of the Society that there will be a guarantee kind of an automatic guarantee of non repetition I think this is actually an area where very little work has been done and much is needed How do we know that it won't be something won't be repeated again? Is it enough to know the truth of what happened to automatically assume that it won't happen again? Or does there need to be some accounting for it if the military say we did it for the honor of the nation? And we're not going to apologize because that was what we were supposed to do I think you're up against a brick wall in a way because you don't get the accountability You don't get the social recognition that something wrong has happened and without having that recognition of Responsibility of wrongs done. I think you're you're likely to have a repetition So these guarantees are important the other one of the other really revolutionary concepts I think that came out in this declaration of principles has to do with the participation of victims That that is that the parties in Havana recognize that this isn't something that can be done without the victims The victims have to be part of this and to that end they called on the United Nations They called in the National University. They called on the Colombian conference of bishops and asked them to help organizing both forums around the country for victims in which some 3,000 victims participated in different regions of the country and they also organized Delegations of victims five different delegations of a dozen victims each and these were you know the care that went into Selecting who would go to Havana was huge and it caused all sorts of controversies because you get right to the crux of who is a victim Are the military victims and in fact military were included among the victims are the Political prisoners of the ELN and the FARC victims and in fact they had a video of a FARC prisoner That was presented before Havana. I mean I think there was the widest possible level of interpretation of who was a victim To try to be as inclusive as possible and to recognize that the entire society has been victimized by the conflict but We say that and I automatically a red flag goes up and say the conflict is not the actor here There are people and institutions that are responsible and you need to define what those Responsibilities are as part of the guarantees of non repetition. I could go on and on and I won't cut it off here But if you're interested in these principles on on the victims I have a blog and I actually Translated it and you can find it on my blog and go in and see kind of what the what the state of the art is in Columbia, but I think they're trying very hard to make the victims the center of a process But we don't know they agreed to not have an extent to not exchange impunities That was the language that was used but they're in the middle of the discussions on transitional justice now And we don't know how much justice there will be It's interesting. We hosted president Ashraf Ghani here in March or April I think and he was asked this question about what would be transitional justice as a part of the reconciliation with the Taliban and He had a very thoughtful Very nuanced answer that noted that you have to understand everybody believes that they have legitimate grievances And it's a tough position to take when you feel so certain that the other side is operating from you know a base of utter injustice and Doing terrible atrocities, but Susie Well, this I think this is the hardest question to answer for reconciliation is the Relationship, you know this gets this gets played out institutionally in truth commissions and transitional justice processes And what's the relationship between them and how will they feed into and out of each other? And will there have to be compromises on one side or the others in order to Meet the needs that that both have for the communities and I don't think there's one answer to this I think that it has played out differently in a lot of different contexts and that will it will continue to Based on what the local communities decide is necessary for accountability and for moving forward And where the where the lines are there? I just want to give one anecdote in Sri Lanka We've been supporting a lot of religious peace building work that's been going on there on the ground since 2007 and in the aftermath of the military defeats of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Ilam in 2009 There was a lot of calls for reconciliation and for accountability and so on but there wasn't a lot of space for it Politically and so it was a lot of the religious leaders and actors and institutions who on the ground were doing some work in order to advance some of that in the absence of state processes of doing it or authentic state processes to advance that and my The the local organization with which we work there did a really interesting exercise when they began working with some of the religious leaders and introducing them to the Concept of reconciliation the processes and mechanisms for reconciliation and some of these tensions within the very concept of reconciliation So they put in each of four corners of a room. They put the terms justice and accountability truth mercy and compassion and forgiveness and then they said to the Religious actors who were there who were Muslim Christian Buddhist and Hindu Go to the corner of the room that you think reflects the component that's most important to achieve reconciliation in Sri Lanka And it broke down almost to the person by religion or ethnicity so The Christians went to forgiveness the the Muslims went to justice and accountability the Buddhists went to truth the need for truth telling and The Hindus went to mercy or compassion and then and then that launched a sort of robust conversation about About the different elements about how they feed into and out of one another and sort of a resolution at the end of the day That they're all important and there's no one necessarily starting place But they all have to interweave with one another in the process of it but one thing I also want to circle back to is Is something I alluded to at the beginning which is that the need for reconciliation in the midst of violent conflict especially in a situation of Internal state conflict is not just reconciliation between groups of people who've been at war with one another But reconciliation between the state and the people because often times The citizenry as a whole or particular groups within the citizenry have felt that they couldn't trust their government The government was treating them as a threat to the state. They couldn't trust these state to provide security They couldn't trust the state to provide fair rule of law and judicial processes for justice and accountability So the the role of some of the transitional justice or justice processes are not just about Accountability for past grievances certainly that's that's you know a primary component of it, but one One aspect of it as well is about reconciling the citizenry with the state being able to trust the state again being able to trust the judicial processes to act with Without discrimination and with equality towards all groups and to be able to address grievances in a legitimate way And so that's in the process of accountability and justice making It's just as much about the state being able to demonstrate that it can respond well to the grievances community it can treat all communities in a fair way and and as Transitional justice is done in the various mechanisms for it are considered whether domestic or international or hybrid versions and so on That need for at the end of it to create some reconciliation between the state and its people is just as important to bear in mind Yeah Lily go ahead and then I'm going to ask Sarhan to talk about exactly that dilemma in the context of Iraq But go ahead Lily. Yeah, I was gonna say that I'm not sure we have a wonderful example that exists of Where are the two processes work together that that you ask about Nancy? But I think it might be interesting to think to where nothing has happened at all There have been no no justice processes and no public reconciliation Processes and no discussion to see what what what the picture looks like in the absence of those and even though We aren't actually working in Indonesia We just hosted the second film in the series by Josh Oppenheim that followed the time of killing It's the act of the act of the act of killing. This was the look of silence and You know briefly as you may know in the 60s. There were massive massive atrocities mass killings in Indonesia ostensibly as an anti-communist Reaction and these are have been completely silenced the state Absolutely one there. There's been no official accountability or recognition of victims And in fact the victims still have dossiers that mark them out as Leftist Marxists enemies of the States and it it increased it relates to their Descendants as well and what I think these two films as well as the research of the anthropologist Leslie Dwyer and Similar film also that's less well known Rob Lemelson's film these by outsiders particularly have shown that Basically with no processes at all these people have simply been silenced by complete terror and the effects the Kind of warping effects within the society and the continuation of high levels of violence. I just saw a Study of continuing levels of violence over the years in Indonesia remains very high many many parts of the country there Reactions are seem to go to either inter inter Ethnic inter communal violence and and there's violence by the state of as well So I think the cost there is so high while we know that these processes Don't always work and there's better and better empirical studies. This is what one thing we found And we have a workshop coming up on the the academic research trying to define and measure reconciliation also assess the practices There's beginning to be much much better research and we do know that some of these processes have not been as strong as others But where there seems to be a complete absence the cost as you say in a kind of underlying fragility No matter how strong the Indonesian state and military look the underlying fragility at the community level Especially and in terms of trust of a good part of the population towards all all authorities and their neighbors is it's a it's a Very poor showing Sarhan Iraq certainly has a trust deficit there a Lot of the issues that Susie just outlined are definitely present And yet I know there's some practical examples going forward love to hear your further thoughts Yes Yes, definitely in Iraq Probably is one of the living examples where the deficit but trust between the community and the state is a big issue and the bath party for over third three decades has damaged that relationship and turned it into one of fear and distrust and It even if you had the best government it would have required Mending that relationship and building on that that trust If we focus on the past 12 years a number of shocks that hit the Iraqi society Has made that process even more complicated so people coming from different backgrounds of grievances whether you're talking about the Kurds and And on the Shia mostly feeling that they have been suppressed to it for three decades many people in the Have seen that as was it's for example from the Kurdish angle was it Saddam suppressing and doing these things or was it the Arabs and One of thing that important issues of leadership come into play the Kurdish leaders have really invested in portraying this about Saddam and the bath party and not turning this into a Kurdish Arab Conflict what happened in in the in the other at the angle of it after 2003 the Sunni Shia Angle of the conflict of the grievances and mistrust have been worked on by the politicians for political games so that has worsened the situation what that meant and the accountability processes that were put in place for through the What was called the debatification law and after that it was changed to the accountability? Commission those were used for political elimination. So that deepened that it has made played on the deep in the mistrust in the state and also the new actors that The change in Iraq brought that deepened that communal this trust because especially in the past two elections The the political leadership have used Misused those processes for elimination and exclusion, but if we take that to the community level I think this is where we can see examples of success and examples of hope There are three or four examples that I can point to out in the US IPs work in Iraq where Iraqi facilitators trained on conflict resolution and mediation have found way to to resolve or mitigate or Reduce violence among different actors at the community level whether we talk about the Mahmoudia example in south of Baghdad or Dialla or Nino up lanes between the minorities and even in this current time of conflict between The with the Islamic State many people think that at a time of conflict Reconciliation is not possible peaceful work is not possible the sequencing issue many people spoke about about okay Do you wait until there's an agreement and then you begin reconciliation work? I think that the event title has it right definitely for Iraq if you do not do reconciliation You cannot have peace in Iraq so leaving at the macro level leaving entire segments Sunnis out of the political process or the Kurds out of the political process gives you other other forms of conflict and violence And after the Islamic State took and getting back to the community level took the province of Salah Hadid There is a famous massacre called the spiker massacre in which ISIS killed 1,700 Air Force cadets and soldiers mostly Shia and that spanned some 20 tribes in the south and nine provinces the potential for Social violence emanating from tribal revenge just that segment was he was huge letter and then politicians played on that angle for political gains against To hit Prime Minister Abadi and undermine him they were said okay He could not protect the Shia then Shia militias used that as a Pretext for revenge and they really had a blanket statement against against the Sunnis, but again Iraqi trained facilitators managed to find Ident tapped into tribal relationships on the Sunni side under the Shia side and brought them together through dialogue And actually they have managed that they could get ahead of the conflict and prevent the further escalation of the conflict So and then gradually there were other Positive benefits from that where the Sunni leaderships came out and said that the tribes that specific tribes that were accused came out publicly Said we did not do it. We are getting back to the concept of justice They said okay We are willing to work with a judicial process to bring the perpetrators to justice even if they are people amongst our tribes and other times without a process that they could trust that they could They would that the it was easy for the tribal leaders to default to a position of saying We would be it would be a shame to go and admit Something or to be engaged with something that we are accused of but we have not perpetrated So the element of process is very important a credible process a method methodical A lot of effort went into individual relationship building bringing the people together And gradually that facilitated the return of a first batch of families to the city of Tikrit after it was liberated It was liberated for weeks and people did not want to go back They didn't dare to go back because they felt that there will be revenge there They will be killed. Sunni families could not return But the credible process established a relationship between the security forces between the state and between the tribal leaders and the IDPs Displaced people they returned because they could trust the process But that is one segment of a larger picture that that the framework that doesn't exist unless you have a larger framework Then you can you you cannot go and expand and in Iraq right now you need to continue both layers They go hand in hand. They are inseparable Great. Thank you sarhan, you know and Susie you talked about forgiveness being a christian concept and a very wise Mentor of mind defined forgiveness as letting go of all hope of a better past And You know we saw a very powerful example of that when you know after the south carolina church shootings when the members of of mother-manual church Conducted an act of public forgiveness that I think really galvanized hope and inspired people around the country how do we without letting go of the justice aspects without Not enabling voices to be heard all the issues that you raised jinny How do we also bring forgiveness forward as a means of enabling the victim to move forward with their lives and is this Is there a version of this concept that exists in some of the other faith traditions? So I'll ask susie, but and then welcome others to chime in and then we're going to open it up for questions Yeah, well, I wanted to start with the second part because I want to say that christianity doesn't doesn't own forgiveness That of course it exists in and a lot of different faith traditions and outside of faith traditions as well as an element of Of how to move forward after suffering has occurred after people have harmed one another In including I mean all of the Faith the religious traditions in the world have dealt with conflict within their communities and often in their sacred stories and their sacred scriptures They talk about how to move forward after conflict has happened within families within communities Within the religious institutions between kings between states and so on and often there's the element of forgiveness as well as often go coincided with intertwined with the Acknowledgement on the part of that of the person who caused the harm often both sides cause harm in some ways And so acknowledgement of the wrong that was done acknowledgement of the role in that and then forgiveness So it's a it's a mutual process of moving forward, but as you said a wise person once said to me that If you're not able to forgive somebody who hurt you then the power is still completely in In their hand if you're waiting for them to acknowledge a harm that they did to you Then it's entirely you're giving all of the power to them to be able to To be free from that suffering and to move forward And why would you want to continue to put in the hands of somebody who's already hurt you that power to to move forward? So forgiveness can also be seen as an element of Of self-liberation in a way of being able to move forward Even if you have to in the absence of that Acknowledgements and repentance on the side of the other person But of course forgiveness is never something that can be imposed on anyone It has to be a free choice That is made by an individual Of their own decision. Otherwise, it's not going to be authentic. So what we saw in charleston was Um incredible and I think it was rightly heralded as incredible and almost inconceivable um that there was the ability of Of the survivors of that violence and those who were affected by it the families and so on to be able to offer that kind of forgiveness But that's not something that we can ever impose on victims Lest we revictimize them and that's one of the Controversies that came out for example the the process in South Africa There was a sense that forgiveness was being forced on victims before they were ready for it and that created new forms of harm For the victims. So it's it's important. It needs to go be coincided or be Acknowledged as an important element of peacebuilding along with acknowledgement Of of harms that were done And it's never something that can be imposed But it is A crucial act That somebody who suffered can Can take on if they're ready in order to to move forward and take the power away from those who've caused harm Great. Thanks, lily Um, I was going to add maybe as a as a counterpoint disease though. I'm not sure about that that Um forgiveness is also meant to absolve people of sins or or crimes and Um, I that's why I think it can also be a process of moral hazard I think that's often a concern that if you Um carry out An atrocity no matter how bad if there's a sense at the end The spiritual answer will be we forgive You're looking at a very problematic Response from the world to those kind of acts I would say that one thing are they mutually exclusive um Can't you have both? I think well, I think probably you could but a lot of the um of the language Puts the puts their uh responsibility on victims Actually, and the other thing is that one thing we know about reconciliation. It's a long-term multi-generational process which is exactly why it's so important for peace because Peace can be broken not just immediately after a peace process Um, we did notice with the practices that we documented that they tended to tilt towards very short-term practices immediately after conflict and of course that's Almost certainly because of the the pattern of funding And one of our findings was there's really there are very vibrant Areas of practice going on in places that have been considered by the international world well got to move on Been there done that and in a way reconciliation failed They just can't seem to um to manage it and I'm thinking of of Bosnia and much of the former Yugoslavia We found some really some of our pictures here actually from um a really interesting small local project The most mirror bridge of peace in the pre-ador region which focuses on Art festivals for children who are otherwise completely separated by schools people live side by side with a lot of returned Muslim refugees, but there there's no interaction Between the more it wasn't until um a returned survivor Muslim survivor returned and started this project But he's operating almost without without resources because there's no more funding for anything that's considered long term which seems to be really Where the the need is but that's also looking at trying to make Reconciliation an issue for the victims and the perpetrators those first generation first line People may actually not be aware to look and you may really want to look at the the the relationship Several generations out because these rankers don't just these grievances and memories They don't just dissipate with time or with the with the appearance of a new younger generation You can find actually relationships getting worse Over as time goes on. Yep. So it has to be a different a different process than forgiving the the act itself So really quickly because then I want to turn quick quick comment jenny and then sir I was just going to underscore the plurality of levels at which reconciliation happens and the importance of really Differentiating whether it's individual reconciliation and forgiveness Or something at a state policy level where reconciliation is being put out as a state policy And within that state policy recognizing that it's always an individual choice to forgive And I'd like to come back to susie's note that this can never be forced Victims who are unable to forgive for one reason or another because the hurt is so profound Really shouldn't be made to feel that somehow they're out of step with the national So I think as internationals we have to be very careful of that and going back to the connection between forgiveness and justice just one point There are many kinds of justice and I think that we're often in the western world and particularly in the united states used to thinking about Retributive justice that is people go to jail for their crimes There's a trial and wrongs are found and they're punished for them And I think that in many parts of the world and particularly in columbia There's a whole new development of the concepts of restorative justice and how Right wrongs will be acknowledged and justice can still happen without sending everybody to jail that you're somehow restoring The individuals on both sides both victim and victimizer to a community that's whole more made more whole by that By that dialogue and that home vivencia, I would say the the living together And I think many columbians talk about home vivencia as opposed to reconciliation. They're two different interesting ideas sarhan quick comment, and then I have four web questions stacked up some of which we may have slightly answered but yeah, just very quickly on that reconciliation in iraq or in The part the part of the Middle East where they're talking about Syria or elsewhere There is an external factor. So we have touched upon the the the direct actors who are involved in the conflict Or in the dispute that led To the whatever problem we have today But the external factors like the tensions between Saudi Arabia and iran and turkey and the and iran and some other countries Are complicating those reconciliation processes and they have the at moments of time they they they contribute to raising the heat At the end of the day it comes to a cost for There's in that part of the world the emotional side of this is is huge over the rational side of this But then when it comes to how many people i'm losing a day, how many billions i'm spending on this conflict Then the actors will Come to a situation where they change What they will accept that do not accept but then the external factors have always complicated the iraq angle of reconciliation Thank you. Um, we have two questions that are almost identical, uh, which are asking for Practical examples of reconciliation initiatives that help societies deal with the past Including one version of that coming from a columbian peace builder. So jinny. I think you touched on that but any other Quick practical examples of how difficult paths have been addressed in reconciliation initiatives I think one of the most innovative models that i've seen it comes from antiochia From a process that's been created called provisa maze. They're Promoters of life and mental health And this is a project where a women's organization a regional women's organization that has a long history in columbia Brought together victims women victims of the conflict to be trained in psychosocial support Techniques so that they could become a kind of mutual support group for other victims And the concept was that they were transforming people from From victims into citizens who had the possibility of change who had the possibility Not only of internal change, but also of helping fellow victims to change And this model has been incredibly supportive right now Some of the women who have been involved in this have also been involved in a project that we're doing to train women mediators And in the course of training women mediators, they got to know some ex combatants And they are now bringing ex combatants from the groups that victimized these women victims into the mix So you're moving from Kind of a psychosocial healing process Which is I think often a first stage before you can even get to reconciliation You have to heal you have to be healed enough to even consider The and empathy to be able to empathize with another But I think they're moving from a psychosocial process to then an engagement process where they're open enough to hear other points of view From their victimizers, and I think this kind of very slow gradual Finding a safe space and creating a safe community in which to discuss these issues is really important Before you can get to a point of bringing victimizers and victims together So following on the practical There's a question that says recently in Sierra Leone There's been a mass destruction of property and housing in Freetown Leaving thousands of internally displaced people. What advice can you give to the government affected persons? And civil non-violence Groups calling for restoration of justice and fair housing rights Good examples sage advice Well, I would say the first step is know your rights I mean people need to be trained in what are the protections that they're offered under their own national laws And under international laws and then once you know what those rights are figure out who's defending those rights And link in with organizations that can where where you can make a difference and you can help them make a difference Great and while they're answering anybody who has questions. Are we asking you people we're going to take the mics around So raise your hand if you have a comment or a question and we'll bring the mic to you So we'll go ahead. Yeah, and I think breaking down where the source of the problem sometimes a blanket Statement about if the state has done this or this group has done this Is not helpful at the end of the day. It comes to probably a failed process an individual So you don't go breaking it down to those those segments is very important Great. So we have a lot of people who have thoughtful comments experience to share sir you first Yeah, I have a question about timing Is it Is it important to consider the timing of when reconciliation or acts of reconciliation are introduced To a conflict can a conflict be too fresh or too new Or too recent Could you prematurely engage in a reconciliation process that would be either counterproductive Or totally unhelpful Or if there's conflicts still around in the area in other words Do you have to have a complete absence of conflict for reconciliation to work? And then I think a corollary or another question related to timing is Are there situations where the fragility of the of the of the social fabric is such Uh, you don't have conflict, but you have the elements of conflict that could be imminent that you could introduce Reconciliation as a preventive technique or preventive measure Great questions. We're going to take one more while the panel reflects For giving me a word and um First of all, I want to thank the institute of peace very much for organizing this event because Uh, is this on Is this on First of all, I would like to thank the institute of peace for organizing this wonderful event because what we are talking Discussing now. I think it's a fundamental The most fundamental question in our civilization in our world because without peace No life no future. So thank you very much for giving us the opportunity to hear your opinion to share Our opinions My name is svetlana stanford. I was born in the former soviet union and I know that virginia lived Maybe in some of I mean maybe in russia or maybe in in another republic of the soviet union So and I have russian and ukrainian roots, you know And what is happening now in uh, donbas makes me very very very upset and um Uh, I try to understand why it happened. Of course, I understand it's a political game So many and um The history what we had Russian and ukrainians It's like one family. Uh, we belong to the same talking about religion. We belong to the same church We are orthodox We fight it together Um Against nazis. We are suffered from hunger When starting time was so we had a lot a lot in common. We have the same fate. We have the same history Why it happened? Why? One brother who lives in kiev hates the brother his brother who lives in muskv. It happens. It's real So I would like to know Each of your opinion about what is the first step Maybe the main step In reconciliation Which bring I mean to to the peace through the long peace in that area. Thank you for attention Thank you. Um, and sadly it's A lot of these conflicts are happening between communities who have historically been very very close So, uh timing, uh, and can it be preventative? Can it be too fresh and how to address These kinds of of terrible Go ahead lily on the timing question I think uh, we know it's difficult to get what we call now empirical evidence about uh questions like this But I suspect that we may have had premature Rush to reconciliation reconciliation activities at the time of the oslo agreement between palestinians and israelis And um with the with the continuation of conflict people lost Faith in each other and faith in the process and you even had the backlash of the palestinians beginning to believe This was not a positive process, but one of so-called Normalization of of an occupation and I sometimes wonder if that was a case where uh, where timing was was really off The sarhan go ahead. Yeah Very quick. I think timing is very important. Uh, but as I mentioned to me iraq is an example where Uh, even if you don't have a full fledged process there, you could build toward that process There are steps that you can take uh at uh at state level community level And one of the in the vestments that I see is a great investment in civil society organizations and looking for Elements in the community and the culture and the tradition to tap into our critical in iraq We have been successful in tapping into the tribal traditions that bring communities back together in the roles of religious leaders That held could could play a positive role and I think it's important to also remember even in the most peaceful society Peace not an end state that you reach and use it stays if you have to keep investing in retaining that status Look at whether you look at the united states or other countries in the europe I think understanding what keeps peace and how you preserve it is an important one to be able to help Those communities, uh, where we operate in the conflict zones. Where how do we get them there? Which goes to your preventive issue Uh, jenny, did you want to come in? quickly Quickly just recognize vet london. It's wonderful to see you and your your question about what the first step of Reconciliation for pieces your husband was engaged in high level human rights dialogues between the u.s. And soviet union at a very quiet level those kinds of initiatives between academics policy makers church and religious leaders communities i think Set the groundwork a kind of preventive, but also a potential resolution can be Can be shaped by having those kinds of interactions Very quickly and i'll answer them both in one If we think of reconciliation as the restoration of right relationships, then You can begin that immediately right and that as sar hang was saying that reconciliation is also the process by which you Seek to achieve and then sustain peace by constantly working on restoring the relationship between communities between the state and civil society And that the first step for that is then engagement Between the state and civil society between the different communities who've been in conflict with one another at the personal level But also at the corporate level Svetlana, I would also just echo something sar hang said about iraq where it's the The interference of neighbors and of the region sometimes that can disrupt what Or inflame relationships that were otherwise peaceful And if you haven't already met our executive vice president ambassador taylor, please do so Because of some initiatives that we're working on at the community level on Building peaceful relationships starting now among communities. Okay over here and then where's our other mic? Yeah, this woman in the checker. Yeah and then we'll go good morning and Thanks very much to the panel for for your words so far often in in these post-conflict situations There are so many perpetrators of crimes hundreds of thousands in some cases That it becomes very difficult for courts set up to actually process And deal with with each individual case It definitely was the case in Rwanda and and definitely the case in Kosovo as well So would it be fair to say that? reconciliation is And forgiveness is a second best option Which is necessary and often You know inevitable in cases where a retributive justice Can't be given out and and can't be processed in in in these kinds of situations. Thanks Thank you. We'll take over here and Yeah, go ahead. My question is specifically for miss bovier You had mentioned earlier the importance of defining actors and victims in a conflict and I was wondering Does that mean that you have to determine a common national narrative or is there a way Around that process because that in itself is often very problematic Okay, and one more we'll take three at a time right here and then go to our next batch Greetings. I'm open map and ambassador for peace from Nigeria I would appreciate answers as to what measures might be taking where a peace building where reconciliation fails Thank you Okay Three chewy questions Jenny Well, I'll just take the one that was directed to me and leave my colleagues for the others But the question of defining actors and victims and whether there needs to be a common national narrative Just an anecdote the peace table the fark and the government of columbia Decided that there would the first step for Understanding who the victims were was to establish a historical commission on the conflict and its victims And they named 12 academics who were of good repute, you know independent minded, etc To produce reports on the nature of the conflict and the impacts that it had on society And assigned two rapporteurs or two rapporteurs who would then reconcile these 12 reports that were produced and produce one narrative That would say these are the areas where there's agreement about the conflict and these are the areas where there's disagreement In the end there were 14 reports produced the two rapporteurs could not reconcile what was out there They were so different and so dramatically different that there was no No possibility of reconciling. I think that these 14 reports actually are a useful input But they also tell us just how fragmented the society is in looking at the conflict and even understanding Who's responsible let alone. Who's the victim? So no, I don't think there's a single national narrative I think there are people that may be trying to create a single national narrative But right now I think people just need to listen to each other And and then there's there's going to be a process to get to some sort of conciliation of versions But i'm not sure that there will ever be one single version of the columbian conflict So i'm trying to respond to a very interesting question that mentioned um kosovo It seems to me that maybe because I am more of a Natural cheerleader for including justice It seems to hard to believe that you could not find sort of the chief what we call conflict entrepreneurs And find a way to at least bring those people to justice Even if we know that that will never really answer the calls For justice and there may be people who are looking for the neighbor That they know who abused them to actually that justice for that person will be more important than people at the top But even in rwanda, they were a high level Conflict entrepreneurs who were judged and there would seem to be some violence and that has some value in them. Sorry What it seems to me that reconciliation in any case is never second best that this is Justice is almost never never going to be sufficient. So these processes really these alternative or other processes have to be Really given as much stature in importance And these can they're always needed and there are so many different forms. I mean are we thinking of truth processes, which The jury is out on the value of them, but it seems to be very important people return to the idea of this as being deeply appealing And the other processes which try to bring People together where they can at the grassroots level and to have statements from other important Leaders of the country calling for new beginnings. There are so many different forms that I think they're it's it's a landscape That's not second best, but also absolutely necessary I want to Second a lot of what lily has said, but I also want to Give a caution that we don't want to conflate political amnesty and forgiveness as a personal process So a lot of what I was speaking to early was about a personal decision For forgiveness, which doesn't preclude justice and accountability and that reconciliation itself doesn't preclude justice and accountability These are very overlapping processes But then also to say in terms of practical things too on the ground that there are some really great Given that it can be impossible to hold accountable all of those who are involved in violent conflict situations There are some examples of some good processes not not perfect But good processes on the ground where communities have created their own Mechanisms for holding accountable northern Uganda with a lot to open and Mozambique and other places where wind combatant in Colombia increasing and including with a group we support the ecumenical women's peace building Network processes where when combatants come back into their communities There's ways in which the local community can come together and have A process of accounting for what that person did the harms they created to their communities and then how they're going to Be held accountable to it within the community to ensure that that they're living within the community in a way that That doesn't replicate the harms of the past Okay, let's do another round. This gentleman here and then The gentleman in the boo shirt We'll try to move towards the back. Go ahead. Thank you Dr. Limber and to our panel today for having us. My name is Emmanuel Dawali Udaigo. I'm a very relevant citizen And i'm basically interested to hear What are your Perspectives on some grassroots initiatives that are currently taking place in Venezuela for national reconciliation And of course being based at the grassroots level are facing Several pitfalls because of the lack of will from the state actors to sort of not only Allow for these initiatives to take traction at the national level But also to engage in them even so I mean is it possible really to Civil society actors to mobilize a wider portion of the population When there is such a high level political conflict yet to be resolved And so it does this have any prospects for prevention at the grassroots level at least. Thank you That sounds like a lot of country That sounds like a lot of countries Yeah over here. Good morning, and thanks to everyone in the panel for a really fascinating discussion My question is about Guatemala's specifically if the example of the political events of this year is relevant for this discussion Even though we're almost 20 years out from the Guatemalan peace accords And the scandals and political protests resulting in the president vice president of Guatemala resigning and being imprisoned this year Were directly caused by corruption heard a lot of coverage about How it's largely a response to the open wounds and the lack of reconciliation of almost 20 years ago So do you think that there's an example here? Specifically for the role of international institutions such as the UN Commissioning against impunity which has been really key in Guatemala. Thank you. And can you pass the mic directly behind you? to the gentleman Okay, sorry I didn't see either. Yeah Thank you. My name is for to take a giveaway from the Central Africa Republic. You mentioned earlier central africa republic Yes, welcome. Thank you. My concern is about The population who wants to go to reconciliation The international community which is Every involved in the situation in central africa Is pushing us to elections What kind of peace we can reach? While the population who wants to go to reconciliation And the international community community wants us to go to election Thank you That is such an important question the the and I think Susie and actually everybody up here underscored at the beginning the importance of listening Uh to Local voices as one moves forward and I think there's a lot of examples of where elections have crystallized differences as opposed to Enabled a collective healing to go forward. So you raise a really important question three good questions Ginny do you want to get us started off because they're two latin american specific questions? And then sar hang you may want to Talk about the grassroots approaches. Ginny. Sure I would I would say with regard to the grassroots initiatives in venezuela that Oftentimes when there's not reconciliation at the national level or there's not dialogue or there's not any kind of peace process in sight That's when people get Kind of jump the gun and say well, we're just going to do reconciliation anyway at the local level And I think that's what I saw happening in columbia. There was no peace process back in 2007 2008 But people wanted the war to end and they wanted to figure out how to live With the war going on around them in a more humane way And so you had a lot of reconciliation and peace building initiatives happening before you had a peace process And I think that's what's happening in venezuela as well People are taking things into their own hand and saying well if they're not going to kind of resolve all these things Quietly at the top we're going to have to do it here now The problem is that you often have a disconnect between what's happening locally and what's happening nationally And I think we're seeing the impact of that now in columbia You have a lot of groups doing peace building at a local and regional level And they're having a hard time connecting to the national process USIP has actually been supporting quite a number of projects that specifically set out to connect their process to a national process And they've actually served as a kind of mechanism for what the government has has labeled as territorial peace You know, we want peace once we sign the accord in hirvana. We want peace to come to the regions How do we do that? Well, one of the ways you do that is you have people who are Interested in reconciliation and peace issues and talking about it and dialoguing you have those as those people as partners Who can help ground the national policies and help implement a peace accord at the local level on Guatemala absolutely relevant for today's discussion Over here And I think the question of sequencing and the question of timing is the one that that jumps out at you Peace building and creating a culture of peace which includes a culture that's transparent that's democratic All of these things takes time and it takes generations But people who were working for peace in in Guatemala continued to work for peace and transparency and democratization of structures and Elimination of political exclusion and discrimination all these things that I think contribute Contributed to the movement that basically ousted the president in Guatemala And I think the internationals played an important role sisiq was a key institution Coming from outside that allowed the investigation of some of these these Structures of corruption that had permeated the the Guatemalan state Thank you sarhan quick reflections where it for people since we started so late I'd like to stay five more minutes and take one more round of questions in a lightning round So we'll we'll all be super succinct, but there's good good questions coming Yeah, I think civil society is an important element What regardless of the conflict zone in the country you're talking about because Political parties could come and go political leaders could come and go I think investment in civil society is the constant that can survive different political Cycles that's one so it's a worthwhile investment and second is they are a contribution part of the cultural change That you need because at the end of the day the end state of peace and maintaining peace Civil society is that partner that can help you take that Those concepts and play their role Effectively in iraq a country that had zero civil society Before I would say 1991 It's the Kurdistan region of iraq had an earlier start the rest of iraq before 2003 zero civil society I could say and I've spent most of my life in iraq and worked mostly in iraq Is that civil society? I would say it slowed down The the sliding of the communities in the country into violence in the following years because the more we invested in them the The more they tapped into the communities the more they tried they slowed down Whatever we have today would have been worse had we not had civil society the more investment we can We have a strong partner that we can engage with but this is what the international community Can play an important role in the prevention aspect also And I mentioned spiker the earlier early that civil society can work as an early detection mechanism They can give you a sign of what is what's coming at you and then you can you can work with that Great. So any final burning lightning round questions? We'll we'll start with the the woman next door to our car questioner Yeah, and then this gentleman here Yeah, go ahead Okay, thank you. My name is Josiane. I'm from central african republic too My question is What kind of strategy we're gonna put on place place to start with the reconciliation because The country in my country first was political Conflict and now it become an a religion conflict between Muslim and question and in center In some of the place in the capital even in the the other city Or a lot of muslims move to that country. They are in chat chat or soda. They lost everything No, I was nothing so how We're gonna start with that reconciliation Because I know that the governor can do nothing for them. So how we gonna do that Even they got nothing back home Nowhere to live. Thank you. Thank you gentlemen so I understand the role of the peace tech lab the peace tech lab in Reducing conflict in these different affected countries But what role of any does technology play in the reconciliation process? And how does the peace tech lab come into play with that? Good question. Okay, last last question unless Kathleen you have a burning comment Okay, great. Thank you. Well, thank you very much I'm from Guatemala and I lived in Eastern Europe And so I studied the transitions of Spain, Hungary and Guatemala Which seemed really odd to most people with the exception of something that lily I mentioned today, which was Decades later when you haven't done anything or you've done very little or if you limited in the case of Guatemala, you haven't wanted to name You know what happens and what are the coast and what is the the consequences of doing that? And so I wanted to bring back to what lily had mentioned she mentioned Indonesia as a case where You know there we have decades now later to look back and I wanted to see if there are other cases If there are any other studies that you guys wanted to bring up in this issue of What happens when you don't do? Much or you don't do anything or you cover up. I mean Hungary for me. It's such a You know great example of that as well as my country Great, okay, and Kathleen thank you I wanted to just pick up on the technology moving forward, but I also wanted to ask the question What is a good example of who gets to write the history of a conflict? What role does it play in reconciliation? What role education plays moving forward? Great, thank you very much. That's an excellent question. So These are all huge will be very short lily Do you want to talk about who gets to write it and the impact of? No process Yeah on the process of education and there's actually again, we don't really Know the connections. It's very hard to look at the long-term effects of education And there's a use of is funding a big study right now of education and peacebuilding I will say and I don't know really what the sort of empirical evidence is But it's impressive that in northern Ireland since the since the early 90s School textbooks have been written by completely integrated teams of textbook writers And I think generally it's felt that the way history is taught irish history is taught in the classroom northern irish history Is actually reasonably fair It's a question of what can the teachers dare to touch upon what narratives did the children bring into the classroom? And what are the long-term effects of and this is being studied a bit? What did children understand about history? A couple of years after leaving that particular history class and gender integrated as well Yeah, I think just positive Kathleen was Pushing us to make that comment. Yeah. Well presumably gender agenda. I don't know if we can take that for granted But this goes to the the role of education but women if Women are certainly well represented in the peace Process in the civil society work for peace in northern Ireland and hopefully that's true also in the education community. Thank you On no process We don't have a study going on right now. It's hard to prove a negative and and really show causation, but It's it's certainly a critical a critical question I think we've just had a good idea put on the table Okay, couple of comments around technology Quickly Jenny and then I won't address the peace tech lab per se But I will just say a word a broader word about the role of social media and peace building because I think it It I don't want to overstate it because in many countries you don't have the technology for even iPhones let alone or you know for iPhones let alone for any kind of campaign But in Colombia it is social media is being used to either attack the peace process and or even the former president has has really Broken new ground in how he's using the media to mobilize a population against a peace process And you have other sectors that are trying to respond, but there's very little Very little success in those sectors usip has commissioned a study on the role of social media in Visibly the peace process in Colombia. We hope to have it out in a couple of months And I think it has some very interesting findings about the different messaging the different kinds of messaging that can be supportive or Play a role in in countering the possibilities for reconciliation And of course we've seen the role of social media in the Guatemala example of mobilizing peaceful civil resistance Yeah, sir. I mean just to return. I think technology is a double-edged sword We've seen it used by people to create use to To spread peaceful messages, but also we've seen it some organizations like ices use it to for destruction So I think investment in the civil society in the government institutions of government to engage with this with the communities an important one because The good actors are lagging behind in terms of the use of good technology in the conflict zone So investing there will have a lot of benefit But I think it's also important that technology at the end of the day is a tool So going out and one of the things that I've shortfalls that pitfalls I've seen in the Middle East is that They train on the use of technology But if you don't have a message to give to the people if you don't have a good practice to sort of the people It could backfire against you. It just becomes a propaganda tool But it's an important tool, which is why we work closely with peace tech lab or on the world Beyond social media, too Though is the role that technology can play in creating inclusive processes for reconciliation and truth commissions and so on So I don't want to forget that piece beyond social media of how technology has been used in order to ensure that those from across a nation and conflict zone are able to participate in and receive the the um Radio feed and so on of tooth commission processes that are going on I wanted to go back to the question from car And say first of all, of course reparations and restoration of land loss of houses lost and so on are important part of reconciliation And these larger processes But I also wanted to get at some of the religious elements of the question you asked because We've been focusing a lot on the role of religious ideas The role of religious actors and religious leaders and although we haven't focused on it Also, I think important to acknowledge is the role of religious institutions and helping to institutionalize some of these reconciliation processes And ensure for example, truth commissions. Guatemala is a great example of that with archbishop charati the use of religious networks and Places of worship and so on in order to Gather information to reach out to survivors of of violence and and to advance some of these processes But we also have to acknowledge that there's a need in the aftermath of political violence in some context to Deal with to understand how religion was used in order to fuel violence and how religious actors and religious institutions and religious ideas perpetuated exclusion or bias or violence itself and And thinking about how to advance from mechanisms and processes and dialogue in order to understand that fully so that you can trust in religious institutions as well and What's often not acknowledged in the south african truth and reconciliation commission They're sort of all of the acknowledgement of the positive role that religious Institutions and ideas and actors played and helping to advance that process But one element of it that's often forgotten is that there was actually a process by which White south african church leaders were brought in order to testify about how they had helped create some of the theological ideological Infrastructure that had contributed to apartheid and that that was a way in which the the community and the country was able to To reckon with how religion had fueled the oppression and the violence there And so those processes need not it cannot be forgotten In the aftermath of violent conflict as well Great. Thank you. Um, I want to once again. Thank everybody for joining us this morning for stain I'm sorry for the late start. Um, I wish we could keep going There's a lot of Rich experience here in the room from a lot of different perspectives. Thank you for joining us this morning I want to once again urge you to participate in the peace day challenge hashtag peace day challenge and Thank you again for coming. Please join me in thanking our panelists for today